Irritating attention seekers

[slowpoke]

This morning I see that an "organisation" calling itself GE Free New Zealand is having a moan about the Fonterra/San Lu debacle compromising New Zealand's "clean, green" image.

Sigh.

1. "Organisations" such as GE Free New Zealand generally comprise about one or two anaemic vegan goths and a word processor. They represent nobody and usually aren't even legal entities. However this doesn't stop our slack media giving them column centimetres and therefore encouraging their inane utterances.

I thought you were above playing the man rather than the ball, Hitcher. Just because an organisation doesn't have 100,000 members doesn't mean it's not worth listening to. You could say the same for our Anti-Cheesecutter campaign, would you have that ignored as well? Represent nobody? On both organisations (Cheesecutter, GE Free) I disagree.

2. The likes of GEFNZ are also paranoid conspiracy theorists. They lie awake at night believing that "big business" aided and abetted by the Government is hell-bent on transforming New Zealand into a desolate, polluted, reeking wasteland.

What have you based this assumption on? The only paranoid conspirer I'm seeing is a bloke thinking a small headline from a non-mainstream organisation will bring Fonterra/NZ crashing to it's knees.

Let's explore that for one moment in the Fonterra/San Lu context. Why would they? Fonterra has succeeded famously exporting New Zealand dairy products to the world. Why would they deliberately take risks that jeopardised a reputation hard-won over the past 75 years?

C'mon mate the anser to that is written in very obvious gilt edged letters: money. People companies have risked far more for far less. I'm not saying thay have deliberately risked anything but where there is money to be made people are prepared to gamble.

Fonterra is not an innocent party here. Indeed they have fucked up majorly. Their public relations counsel has been appalling, I suspect heavily influenced by their legal counsel.

3. What has genetic "engineering" got to do with Fonterra/San Lu? The melamine appears to have been added by dodgy unknown individuals involved in the Chinese milk production supply chain. There are no GE cows being farmed anywhere in the world, and there is no genetically modified construct containing melamine in any organism.

It's a big call to say no GE cows are being farmed anywhere in the world. Buggered if I know but it wouldn't suprise me, and I reckon Fonterra would be extremely interested in such if they were. You don't think they'd be interested in more productive/resilient cows?

4. New Zealand is only comparatively clean and green, and then not in all cases. I have ranted before on this sad reality. GEFNZ and others are missing the point entirely about enhancing New Zealand's environmental performance. Issuing media statements that offer no constructive solutions are facile and should be exposed as such.

Bollocks, mate. It's entirely appropriate to highlight issues that require redress. Often issues require complex solutions, indeed whilst situations are often deplorable solutions are not always readily apparent. Alternatively the solution is simple to the point of not having to state it ie if X is harmful, stop doing X.

5. GEFNZ is potentially contributing to the problem that they are railing against by drawing public attention to it.

So we should not comment on any issue for fear of drawing public attention to it? The Cheesecutters are going to fix themselves are they?

6. Me, mad? Damned right I am.

Have a wee read of this then, it doesn't sound too bad to me, certainly not the raving loonies you make them out to be (direct from http://www.gefree.org.nz/geanimals.htm):

"It’s not ok to create deformities and suffering in animals in order to make ‘cheaper’ pharmaceuticals, when other production methods are available

It’s not ok to undermine New Zealand’s reputation and brand-image as a producer of safe, natural, clean food the world wants

It’s not ok to genetically engineer animals with human genes and have no respect for the integrity of species, just to make ‘healthier’ nutriceutical milks

It’s not ok to deliberately create sick animals as ‘models’ of human disease when the Bioethics Council has called for an ethical review of such practices

It’s not ok to risk creating new diseases by experimenting on NZ animals when they are currently free of Mad Cow Disease and Scrapie

It’s not ok for GE animal waste to be used as compost or sprayed onto fields and to then refuse to monitor the effects on the environment"


OK, so it's idealistic rhetoric, but I'd far prefer to aim high and fall a bit short than fail to achieve already low targets.

[Finn]

Those people that NEED a 42 inch Plasma TV at 25% pa interest??

A fool and their money are soon parted. Seems to be a lot of fools in NZ.

[vifferman]

Moral of the story: Don't do business with China. It will be a short term gain, followed by the destruction (either material or reputation) of the corporate entity that thought the yellow people were an exploitable resource.

Eggs, Zachary.
What I thought (and could have of profersized on) is coming to pass.
China opens its doors (metaphorically speaking, although it did open its borders), and Kaching! a whole bunch of greedy people see opportunities to make lotsa loot, by "doing business with China". They set up Trade Agreements, Joint Ventures, Trading Partnerships, Foreign Aid, Overseas Investment Portfolios, and a whole bunch of other Important Sounding Pomposities.
Then (next), this helps China to easily and cheaply obtain the technology, funding and materiel to make up for the self-sabotage they did in the "Cultural Revolution", when they killed off or imprisoned many of their People With Brains and Education. (Luckily, they retained almost all of their People With Cunning, Sneakiness, And Ability To Make A Buck.)

So. The investors, trade partners, and "Sharers of Technolgy In The Hope Of Making A Fortune By Exploiting The Yellow Man" have now effectively given China funding, technology and the knowledge they need. The trade deals for suckers like Noo Zilund mean we sell them fuck all of our stuff like wool, dairy products, meat, etc, or if we do, it's at stupidly cheap prices because they can produce these things more cheaply than us anyway, and in return, we buy much more of their crap than we used to. (Remember the trade deal Clark signed, which meant we sell them much more of our stuff, but we also buy much more of theirs, and the imbalance is still HUGELY in their favour? Where's the NETT benefit of that?!?)

Sure, a few investors have made money from this - BIG money. But the nett result, until the Chinese economy improves, and the quality of goods starts to reach Japan-like perfection, is that China will swamp the market with its manufactured goods, and even with some primary produce, as they are being given a helping hand by the very countries that will end up suffering as a result of it, and can ramp up their infrastructure much more quickly than any other country, unhindered by environmental or humanitarian concerns as they are.
Want more power? Drown a few villages with a hydrolectric scheme, or build another twenty coal-fired powerstations.
Need to ramp up plastics manufacturing to meet the demand for dirt-cheap plastic crap to supply The Warehouse in Noo Zilund? Just do it - the corrupt Party officials in the town that factory's in will shut up the people being poisoned by its toxic outfall.

Believe it or not, I'm not xenophobic. A bit scared, yes.
I do buy some of the Cheap Crap From China, at the same time as bemoaning the fact that it's meant that an awful lot of the Good Stuff From Elsewhere is increasingly impossible to buy. F'rinstance, hardware stores used to sell good quality tools, and all sorts of esoteric widgets and fittings. Now it's all Consumer Goods (i.e., cheap crap you think you want, but don't actually need); tools that you use once and throw away, because it's cheaper than hiring a tool; and masses of vacuum-packed, not-quite-right widgets, of the wrong size/shape/colour/fittings.

It was refreshing being in Yurp for a few weeks, where almost none of the labels say (as almost all of them do here): "Made in China" in that not-quite-right font they have.

But you all knew all this shit.

I'm just venting my frustration, in an impotent and ineffective way, as you do.

[vifferman]

Just picking up on one of your points (my apologies if it's taken out of context, twisted to my own ends, or whatever)

It’s not ok for GE animal waste to be used as compost or sprayed onto fields and to then refuse to monitor the effects on the environment

Apparently, it IS OK for organic food producers to spray their land with "natural organic nutrients" (animal waste) because they eschew "chemicals" (FFS - everything is made of chemicals, even cow poo!), so that the produce has dangerous levels of faecal coliforms and other pathogens, and to charge the hapless consumer more for this "100% Pure and Natural" product that is actually inferior nutrition-wise and health-wise.
Do organic farmers monitor the environment? I guess that would be using the dreaded science and its chemicals and technology, so probably not...

Most of the GE Free and Green propaganda is inaccurate, inflammatory, and not backed up by facts. But if you disagree with them, you're shouted down, labeled as anti-Earth, a potential murderer of the baby fur seal whale penguins, etc etc.

I LOVE this world, and hate the pollution and despoilage that is done. But (however), it's important that we are not sucked in by propaganda, and check stuff out, even if (especially if?) it comes from Our Gummint. Take the whole "recycle paper" thing. One of the noobs at the orofice had to print summat out the other day, and apologised for "here goes another tree".
That's stupid.
Mature trees are acknowledged as "carbon neutral " (vacuous term that it is), and therefore contribute little to the health of the world apart from perhaps some micro-climatic factors and soil conservation. The trees used in this part of the world for paper production are all fast-growing, exotic forests, planted in land such as the Central Plateau which is crap for any other use, and which support a whole economy. If you want to be green, it is actually better for the planet's health for them to be harvested and replanted than be left to mature. It's also better for our economy. (Unfortunately, IIRC, vast acreages of them have been sold to the Chinese .)

[Hitcher]

It’s not ok to create deformities and suffering in animals in order to make ‘cheaper’ pharmaceuticals, when other production methods are available

It’s not ok to undermine New Zealand’s reputation and brand-image as a producer of safe, natural, clean food the world wants

It’s not ok to genetically engineer animals with human genes and have no respect for the integrity of species, just to make ‘healthier’ nutriceutical milks

It’s not ok to deliberately create sick animals as ‘models’ of human disease when the Bioethics Council has called for an ethical review of such practices

It’s not ok to risk creating new diseases by experimenting on NZ animals when they are currently free of Mad Cow Disease and Scrapie

It’s not ok for GE animal waste to be used as compost or sprayed onto fields and to then refuse to monitor the effects on the environment

(direct from http://www.gefree.org.nz/geanimals.htm)

At face value, these appear to be useful points, but in reality all they are intended to do is to create unfounded fears amongst those who have little understanding or appreciation about what genetic modification entails.

These are the same people who signed up to the Monarch butterfly myth. They believe in things called "transgenic genes" that allegedly move, miraculously, from one species to another via the food chain. This "theory", taken to its logical end point, means that people who eat say carrots, end up having "carrot" DNA included in their own over a period of time. This is obvious errant nonsense.

GE animal waste is no different from waste from any other animal in terms of residual or cumulative effects on the environment. The application of any waste material to the environment should be monitored. But requiring people to look for things that don't exist (like ghosts and space aliens) is pointless.

And how "experimenting" on NZ animals when they are free of scrapie (sheep) and "mad cow" disease (cattle) could somehow lead to them becoming infected with such is nonsensical. The only way those animals can become affected by those ailments is if they are exposed to a source of infection. This belief is tantamount to postulating that women can become pregnant by sitting on contaminated toilet seats.

[MisterD]

...and of course we all saw the news story from Invergiggle didn't we? National's sitting MP Eric Roy is running the first "carbon neutral" campaign and offsetting his driving by planting trees.

The Green candidate for the seat, one Craig Carson said:

"I think it’s great that he’s doing it. How well it works or not I’m not sure.” Mr Carson said that because he worked fulltime and had limited resources, he was not able to follow suit.
(my emphasis)

There you have it folks, the Watermelon party wants you to do as they say, not as they actually do. Wankers.

[Swoop]

I'm sure we'll never get the full story of Chinese gummint involvement, but I'm willing to bet there was "pressure" applied to avoid this coming out during the olympics.

"Trigger pressure" perhaps...?

[alanzs]

This belief is tantamount to postulating that women can become pregnant by sitting on contaminated toilet seats.

Oh yeah smarty pants, then how did the Virgin Mary get pregnant? Don't tell me, it was a miracle!!!

(What an oxymoron, the Virgin Mary pregnant).

[Oscar]

Hmmm but they are still standing and offering money to those in need. Unlike most NZ operated finance companies that bit the dust and took a lot of mum and dads with them.

So what?

Did the Mums and Dads have a gun put to their head when they invested?
I have little sympathy for anyone that invested in a dodgy finance company on the strength of the advertised interest rate and a glossy prospectus.

These people were taking advantage of interest rates that were three or four percentage points over what the banks were offering. It brings to mind two old saws:

If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

A fool and their money are soon parted.

[Oscar]

At face value, these appear to be useful points, but in reality all they are intended to do is to create unfounded fears amongst those who have little understanding or appreciation about what genetic modification entails.

These are the same people who signed up to the Monarch butterfly myth. They believe in things called "transgenic genes" that allegedly move, miraculously, from one species to another via the food chain. This "theory", taken to its logical end point, means that people who eat say carrots, end up having "carrot" DNA included in their own over a period of time. This is obvious errant nonsense.

GE animal waste is no different from waste from any other animal in terms of residual or cumulative effects on the environment. The application of any waste material to the environment should be monitored. But requiring people to look for things that don't exist (like ghosts and space aliens) is pointless.

And how "experimenting" on NZ animals when they are free of scrapie (sheep) and "mad cow" disease (cattle) could somehow lead to them becoming infected with such is nonsensical. The only way those animals can become affected by those ailments is if they are exposed to a source of infection. This belief is tantamount to postulating that women can become pregnant by sitting on contaminated toilet seats.

Could someone explain to me how we stay GE free when the rest of the world isn't?

If Abner & Mabel from Bumphuck Idaho decide they want to come on holiday to Noo Zealand, do we hold them at the Airport until when can ascertain that their colons are empty of any GE seeds they may have eaten lately? Do we make them take their poos home with them?

[Beemer]

The thing that pisses me off the most is having to check the labels of stuff in the supermarket to see where it is made. I found out last week that bloody Eta peanut butter is made in China! Not a product I would have instantly thought would be made there. I don't buy food products made in China but now I have a jar of peanut butter that will never be eaten in our household! Sanitarium NZ also makes their peanut butter in China - except for the stuff sold in Australia as they faced a huge backlash when people there found out it was made in China.

I tried ringing Eta to let them know I was not impressed but "all our operators are busy, please leave your name and number and we will call you back shortly". Yeah, right.

[alanzs]

Could someone explain to me how we stay GE free when the rest of the world isn't?

If Abner & Mabel from Bumphuck Idaho decide they want to come on holiday to Noo Zealand, do we hold them at the Airport until when can ascertain that their colons are empty of any GE seeds they may have eaten lately? Do we make them take their poos home with them?

Hate to break it to you, but Abner and Mabel don't have a passport and if they ever thought of New Zealand (which they don't - think that is), they thought it was a place on the eastern coast of the US, near New Hampshire, but they won't go there because Jesus said not too in the bible with the red letters because that's where all the liberals and gays are. America made the bible and the Devil lives outside the US, so they wouldn't go here anyways...

[Oscar]

Hate to break it to you, but Abner and Mabel don't have a passport and if they ever thought of New Zealand (which they don't - think that is), they thought it was a place on the eastern coast of the US, near New Hampshire, but they won't go there because Jesus said not too in the bible with the red letters because that's where all the liberals and gays are. America made the bible and the Devil lives outside the US, so they wouldn't go here anyways...

Where do those buses full of hawaiian shirts and plaid trousers come from then?

[alanzs]

Where do those buses full of hawaiian shirts and plaid trousers come from then?

It's all part of the Worldwide Conspiracy that there are buses full of Hawaiian shirts and plaid trousers. Even you didn't fall for it, as the shirts and trousers don't need people to wear them. It's all a big figment of our collective imagination.

[Oscar]

It's all part of the Worldwide Conspiracy that there are buses full of Hawaiian shirts and plaid trousers. Even you didn't fall for it, as the shirts and trousers don't need people to wear them. It's all a big figment of our collective imagination.

You should really dust that stuff off before smoking it...