Absolute bollocks! (Self defence issue)

[Genestho]

Well said but I don't think it is reasonable to expect an instant response from the police. To get that you'd need a huge number of police officers just sitting around in every neighbourhood, helicoptor support, on the off-chance a crime might take place. We wouldn't pay for it, and shouldn't expect it.

Sensibly said - Agreed
We all ask that question but there is a much more fundamental issue - common respect for each other and the rules we live by. When that respect breaks down sufficiently, society dissolves into anarchy. Blaming the justice system, the police, lawyers, judges, etc etc is useless because they are at the hard end of the problem - the bottom of the cliff.

Agreed 100% theres alot of factors going on, BUT there needs to be action taken to meet contributing members of society half way to protect the innocents from morons that are not being responsible for their own wrong doings, sadly because theres always an excuse to defend and always somebody else to blame. My personal opinion is that there is NO excuse to take another human beings life, not poverty, not past history (those that know me will know why I say that) we all have choices.
As far as the courts system, it appears to wrap itself around the defendants, there are supressions of information like you wouldnt believe, and even journalists are supressed from revealing the supressed info, the public has no idea what it doesnt know.. (if you get what I mean)

Contrary to public perception, our penal system has grown harsher over the past 20 years. We imprison more people per capita apart for the USA. Pretty shocking for a laid-back nation like NZ.

True enough, but if your loved one was murdered, would you prefer to see the offender laidup for minimal years and out early for good behaviour ,with a couple of years frolicking around out on bail, prior to the courtcase? While your loved one has been in a box? While your left to flounder mentally, somehow try to work to pay the bills. Watch familymembers grieve hard?
The toll this crap takes on people after the crime is huge, Im glad I dont have to suffer the system

As for crime, both nationally and internationally its been dropping. Again, this is counter-intuitive because we think its growing but the reason is media reporting is ratings driven and is disproportionately exaggerated.

Since when has it been dropping? Your quoting Annette and Helen, that info depends where you source the stats from, I believe as some one told me - thats called dyscalculia (numbers dyslexia)

The thing about this whole defense thing is that fine line.. wouldnt it be awful if while protecting yourself excessively - the tosser got to sue you all the way down the drain, take your house, your savings, laughing at you the whole way?
Pretty hard though if your faced with a knife, what would you do?
Crime in my suburb is up 15%, my local non indian dairy owners are scared..Stuffs happening to ordinary everyday people, and nobody thinks it can happen to them

[Ocean1]

I don't think it is reasonable to expect an instant response from the police. To get that you'd need a huge number of police officers just sitting around in every neighbourhood, helicoptor support, on the off-chance a crime might take place. We wouldn't pay for it, and shouldn't expect it.

Jurisprudence notwithstanding, the social contract that prevents vigilantisim goes like this: You may not use force which would normally constitute an offense, almost without exception. In exchange for which the constabulary will deal with any issues which may require you to use that force.

So tell me dude, did we get a good deal? At what point does the daily public risk amount to contractual negligence?

As for crime, both nationally and internationally its been dropping. Again, this is counter-intuitive because we think its growing but the reason is media reporting is ratings driven and is disproportionately exaggerated.

There's lies, damn lies and...

[Winston001]

My personal opinion is that there is NO excuse to take another human beings life, not poverty, not past history (those that know me will know why I say that) we all have choices.
As far as the courts system, it appears to wrap itself around the defendants, there are supressions of information like you wouldnt believe, and even journalists are supressed from revealing the supressed info, the public has no idea what it doesnt know.. (if you get what I mean)

[I]

Nice post. Suppression of name and facts is rare. Ask Scummy. Go into any District Court on a police list day and you'll see. Its worth a visit just as an eyeopener.

NZ Imprisonment rate high - True enough, but if your loved one was murdered, would you prefer to see the offender laidup for minimal years and out early for good behaviour ,with a couple of years frolicking around out on bail, prior to the courtcase? While your loved one has been in a box? While your left to flounder mentally, somehow try to work to pay the bills. Watch familymembers grieve hard?

Agreed but how do the victims of crime in other countries who jail far fewer feel.....? Their pain is no less, yet their society chooses other punishments. Being second to the US for imprisonment suggests something is fundamentally wrong in this small country.

As for crime, both nationally and internationally its been dropping....


Since when has it been dropping? Your quoting Annette and Helen, that info depends where you source the stats from, I believe as some one told me - thats called dyscalculia (numbers dyslexia)

Not government figures, international figures. One theory is the liberaliastion of abortion in the 1970s has saved us from a generation of crims.

As for local facts, http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/..._incidence.cfm University of Auckland study, crime is dropping and the rate of imprisonment is growing.

However Scummy says violent crime is up and although it would be good to see some numbers, that feels true.

The thing about this whole defence thing is that fine line.. wouldnt it be awful if while protecting yourself excessively - the tosser got to sue you all the way down the drain, take your house, your savings, laughing at you the whole way?

Fortunately ACC means you can't be sued. But......defending yourself in court might have the same effect. Its expensive. The only fair answer would be to extend legal aid to every person charged with an offence ....TUI moment.....or give people charged the choice of a public defender (taxpayer funded) or privately pay their own lawyer.

We don't have a public defender system in NZ and frankly I don't know where they would ever find enough lawyers to employ. We are just too small a country. As it is, in Invercargill there are so few lawyers prepared to do legal aid work that lawyers are brought down from Dunedin. Its low paid exasperating work.

[Headbanger]

Pretty hard though if your faced with a knife, what would you do?

Get stabbed, bleed.

Seems to be how its done.

[Pedrostt500]

Ok I havent read most of this thread, What I tell my boys who are young Fitter Welders and Fitter Turner Apprentices, the first rule in self defence is there are no rules, If you are prepared to get into a fight, Knock the other bastard down as quickly as you can, and make certain that he stays there, Ie put the fucken boot in, if the other guy gets up you may be the one eating hospital food, rule 2 if you are prepared to knock the other fucker down and put the boot in, you may Kill him, so be prepared to stand up and take the consequences of your actions, regardless if you were wrong or right.

[Delerium]

crime is NOT down, reported crime is, two very different things.

[Hitcher]

Depends whether you support National or Labour.

[Grahameeboy]

Well I think we need to go back to the guy from my patch who lost his life helping a stricken lady...he paid with his life and left his family without a Dad.

If your shop gets robbed...let them...you are Insured...let the Police do the business...prison ain't no good to your family and friends...if someone threatens you with a knife...don't be a hero...

[devnull]

Agreed 100% theres alot of factors going on, BUT there needs to be action taken to meet contributing members of society half way to protect the innocents from morons that are not being responsible for their own wrong doings, sadly because theres always an excuse to defend and always somebody else to blame. My personal opinion is that there is NO excuse to take another human beings life, not poverty, not past history (those that know me will know why I say that) we all have choices.
As far as the courts system, it appears to wrap itself around the defendants, there are supressions of information like you wouldnt believe, and even journalists are supressed from revealing the supressed info, the public has no idea what it doesnt know.. (if you get what I mean)

While I agree for the most part, I disagree with saying there's NO excuse to take a life.

Because if it was my wife or children that was threatened, I believe that the killing of the offender would be justified.

I'd rather end up in court or even prison, than have to bury my wife or my kids...

[Swoop]

On fine days the doors are also left open too....

Now that is just silly.

The battery will go flat...

[Genestho]

While I agree for the most part, I disagree with saying there's NO excuse to take a life.

Because if it was my wife or children that was threatened, I believe that the killing of the offender would be justified.

I'd rather end up in court or even prison, than have to bury my wife or my kids...

I guess I say that from a place where I have seen the immense suffering of the cause of somebody taking lives, not just the dead and dying but also the carnage left, my opinion is not from a defensive point of view.
Id hate to be in a position to have to make that call, reasonable force needs to be clear.

[Genestho]

[QUOTE=Winston001;1757984]

Nice post. Suppression of name and facts is rare. Ask Scummy. Go into any District Court on a police list day and you'll see. Its worth a visit just as an eyeopener.

I must be liasing with the rare bunch who have had info suppressed at trial

Agreed but how do the victims of crime in other countries who jail far fewer feel.....? Their pain is no less, yet their society chooses other punishments. Being second to the US for imprisonment suggests something is fundamentally wrong in this small country.

Swift and Severe consequences that are available might help with deterence, how bout night court whipping the minor cases through? (Yea right)
But going back to what you said in your earlier post, the issues that cause this need sorting, from what I see, the mental health sector has been suffering for over a decade, probably even longer, rehab centres shut down, not enough social workers, not enough people that want to help, not enough pay to do it, and red tape, which I hear alot of people give up on (Im having trouble trying to spell bueracratic << red tape lol)
[COLOR=White]

Not government figures, international figures. One theory is the liberaliastion of abortion in the 1970s has saved us from a generation of crims.

As for local facts, http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/..._incidence.cfm University of Auckland study, crime is dropping and the rate of imprisonment is growing.

However Scummy says violent crime is up and although it would be good to see some numbers, that feels true.

I have quite a bit of info on this, various sources and I believe the violent crime rate jumped around 6000 from june 07 to june 08 it'll be outdated already though - big time, and its been steadily rising for years. I saw there was jump in crime after the abolishment of that whatsit called service (name escapes me) in the late 60's


Fortunately ACC means you can't be sued. But......defending yourself in court might have the same effect. Its expensive.

Sorry my fauxpah - wrong choice of words, you said what I meant

We don't have a public defender system in NZ and frankly I don't know where they would ever find enough lawyers to employ. We are just too small a country. As it is, in Invercargill there are so few lawyers prepared to do legal aid work that lawyers are brought down from Dunedin. Its low paid exasperating work.

Ah I've been wondering about that..

[spudchucka]

crime is NOT down, reported crime is, two very different things.

Correct, however the actual true crime rate is something that can never be completely known.

[Grahameeboy]

While I agree for the most part, I disagree with saying there's NO excuse to take a life.

Because if it was my wife or children that was threatened, I believe that the killing of the offender would be justified.

I'd rather end up in court or even prison, than have to bury my wife or my kids...

or 6ft under burying your Wife and Kids in debt...

[jrandom]

Interesting.

The officer in charge of the investigation, Detective Senior Sergeant Dave Pizzini, contacted two high-profile critics at the weekend - Sensible Sentencing Trust spokesman Garth McVicar and retired detective chief inspector Rex Miller - to explain the background to the case.

...

After their conversation, Mr Miller retracted his emailed comments, saying the information should be "put before the court, not the papers".

Mr Miller said that having been informed of the full circumstances of the case, which police cannot reveal because doing so could prejudice the case, he withdrew everything in his email.

"As a result of what I've been told - which I'm not going to tell you - disregard what I've said."

...

Mr Pizzini said it was reprehensible the Herald was still revealing Mr Miller's comments - which the former top detective copied to the newspaper - even though he had withdrawn them. "It concerns me that [Mr Miller] formed his views after only seeing media reports, most of which have been grossly inaccurate."