Absolute bollocks! (Self defence issue)

[Goblin]

How about the manufacture of P? Surely your arguments apply to this as well? And don't give me any esoteric pot-head nonsense about the relative merits of Class A versus Class B drugs.

Fark off! You cant compare something grown from seed to something manufactured from god knows what chemicals which hooks people first time and sends them into psychotic rages!
Tell me Hitcher....who is the victim when someone grows a little plant and turns it into a cookie to eat instead of smoking it? How many pot heads have been arrested for violent crimes against innocent people? Our Cannabis prohibition laws have to be the biggest waste of police time and resources. Wouldnt they(police) be better to put less into cannabis and more into stopping P manufacturing and dealing?

[Finn]

How many pot heads have been arrested for violent crimes against innocent people?

Charles Manson.

[Goblin]

Charles Manson.

In New Zealand?

[Hitcher]

Tell me Hitcher....who is the victim when someone grows a little plant and turns it into a cookie to eat instead of smoking it?

Did the person who consumed the cookie know it contained a mind-altering substance?

If the answer is yes, the next question is why?

If the answer is no, then a "crime" has been committed right there. "I just did it for a bit of a larf, Your Honour."

After having consumed their hash cookie, did that person have another? Were they then persuaded to smoke dak or spot hash so as to get the rush more quickly? Unsatisfied by that, did they then get a "free sample" of P from their local Mob member?

There are lots of things that come from "little plants", such as curare, that are best not left in the hands of your average punter.

New Zealanders have enough problems dealing with mind altering substances, particularly alcohol, that are already "legal". On the basis that as a society we act like a bunch of delinquent teenagers, I believe that marijuana should retain its current status.

And while we're on the subject of "victimless crimes", I'm surprised speeding tickets haven't been mentioned.

[Goblin]

Did the person who consumed the cookie know it contained a mind-altering substance?

If the answer is yes, the next question is why?

If the answer is no, then a "crime" has been committed right there. "I just did it for a bit of a larf, Your Honour."

After having consumed their hash cookie, did that person have another? Were they then persuaded to smoke dak or spot hash so as to get the rush more quickly? Unsatisfied by that, did they then get a "free sample" of P from their local Mob member?

There are lots of things that come from "little plants", such as curare, that are best not left in the hands of your average punter.

New Zealanders have enough problems dealing with mind altering substances, particularly alcohol, that are already "legal". On the basis that as a society we act like a bunch of delinquent teenagers, I believe that marijuana should retain its current status.

And while we're on the subject of "victimless crimes", I'm surprised speeding tickets haven't been mentioned.

If someone grew a little plant and turned it into a cookie or cake, why the hell would they want to have anything to do with the mob??

There are FAR more violent crimes committed through alcohol than pot. In fact I have never heard of any pot user turning violent. We see alcohol related violence every day. Perhaps you should try it Hitcher. All this "pot is a gateway drug" is a crock of shit! If someone is going to get into hard drugs, they're going to do it whether they smoke pot or not. More likely they will be abusing alcohol already.

Speeding tickets are an infringement...not a crime. Although the speeder is still victimized.

[Clockwork]

And while we're on the subject of "victimless crimes", I'm surprised speeding tickets haven't been mentioned.

Not actually a "Crime" but Patrick has already posted a similar rebuttal to the charge that a drunk driving is not really hurting anyone.

*Edit*
.... but in that vane how about, not stopping at a compulsory stop when you can see that there is nothing to give way to or crossing double yellows when you can see that there is nothing comming on the other side of the road?

there's nothing wrong with nudity. Who's the victim?

Presumably he/she who was offended by it. I'd tend to agree that it is "their" problem but you can't deny that there are plenty of people who are offended.

[Goblin]

Did the person who consumed the cookie know it contained a mind-altering substance?

If the answer is yes, the next question is why?

Perhaps he/she is a para/quadriplegic and has grown pot to use for the therapeutic qualities. The only pain relief he/she can get other than legal/prescription drugs from a doctor, which cause horrendous side effects. Nosy, holier than thou neighbor has poked their nose over the fence and told police what they're up to. Wheelchair bound person then gets dragged through the system and sentenced to prison time. Who is the victim???

[MSTRS:Me]

Hmmm...there seems to be a wowser or two about.

[scumdog]

There are FAR more violent crimes committed through alcohol than pot. In fact I have never heard of any pot user turning violent. We see alcohol related violence every day.

Sadly I have to deal with a lot of the pro-pot crowd....who also piss-up a lot, the reason they have to be 'dealt with' is that they are just as fuckwitted as the piss-heads they despise.
"Hey man, cannibis should be made legal, it doesn't make you all violent like piss does" is what they say.

Then they quaff down loads of bourbon on top of their grass and turn into twats.

Not many tokers don't piss-up down here - and most end up meeting me due to their behaviour.

Now what was the topic????

[Goblin]

Sadly I have to deal with a lot of the pro-pot crowd....who also piss-up a lot, the reason they have to be 'dealt with' is that they are just as fuckwitted as the piss-heads they despise.
"Hey man, cannibis should be made legal, it doesn't make you all violent like piss does" is what they say.

Then they quaff down loads of bourbon on top of their grass and turn into twats.

Not many tokers don't piss-up down here - and most end up meeting me due to their behaviour.

Now what was the topic????

So it's the alcohol causing the problem not the pot. My point exactly!

Yeah...the topic...Self defense and drunken little mouthbreathingfuktard oxygen thieves who become victims when they get what they deserve. And the utter injustice of it all!

[Winston001]

What about indecent exposure? Without lewd or sexual conduct there's nothing wrong with nudity. Who's the victim?

Not a great example. Just pop around to my place Goblin and show your wacker to my young daughters. Then find out what me, my wife, my brother, and various other citizens think of your "harmless" exposure.

Incidentally you'll find it very hard to get arrested today for walking around nude. Its not exactly encouraged but simply not wearing clothes is no longer indecent exposure. But again, if you wanna try outside a girls school and test the law, tell us the time and place so we can watch.

Virtually every charge of indecent exposure has an aggravating element, usually lewd sexualised behaviour. It ain't harmless.


PS - Apologies Gobs, you can come around and shake your...er...booty at my place any time.

[Winston001]

Tough one. I used to be very pro-dope, believing that using police time and effort to chase it a waste of money and resources. As people say, victimless crime.

And I do believe alcohol is a worse drug.

But now I have my own children and that tends to focus the mind. We have alcohol, it isn't going away. So we legalise another drug to add to human misery? Pot these days contains high levels of tetracannibol acid so the buzz is stronger than it used to be.

THC releases dopamine in the brain, and because dopamine is a neurotransmitter which causes a sensation of pleasure, smoking dope feels good. The problem is our brains only have a certain reserve of dopamine and THC releases a lot of it quickly, thus drying up the reservoir. It isn't available for other pleasurable experiences which leads to neurotransmitter deficits and mood changes.

Dopamine is linked to bi-polar and there is research which suggests youth who are susceptible to being bi-polar are pushed over the line by using THC.

I'm sure Ocean and others know more.

[scumdog]

So it's the alcohol causing the problem not the pot. My point exactly!

Yeah...the topic...Self defense and drunken little mouthbreathingfuktard oxygen thieves who become victims when they get what they deserve. And the utter injustice of it all!

Meh, the point I was trying to make that lots sing the positive of pot and the negative of alcamahol and seem to suggest that pot-heads NEVER touch booze.

But lots use both anyway at the same time - and often to their detriment and that of a few around them.

OK, now I'll stick to the topic. (And watch idiots shagging their cars on TV1!)

[jrandom]

Just pop around to my place Goblin and show your wacker to my young daughters.

Goblin has a wacker?

... esoteric pot-head nonsense about the relative merits of Class A versus Class B drugs.

I note that the anti-cannabis sentiments expressed in this thread so far have all distilled [sic] down to "alcohol is bad, therefore cannabis is too".

Society would be a lovely place were it filled with nowt but sober, honest folk, who lived by elevated moral precepts and wore funny hats.

Unfortunately, homo sapiens is many aeons of evolution away from ever being able to behave like that. One suspects that it never will.

Attempts to fantasise that a human society can be like that are doomed from the start. Arguing prohibition or legalisation of psychoactive substances in overly-sweeping terms is fallacious.

Selective banning of psychoactive substances, each considered on its own merits, will always achieve the best results.

[jrandom]

Dopamine is linked to bi-polar and there is research which suggests youth who are susceptible to being bi-polar are pushed over the line by using THC.

I think it's been clearly shown that cannabis does harm to mentally ill folk.

Then again, alcohol can swiftly and horribly kill anyone with a hepatic disorder, some people have life-threatening anaphylactic reactions to penicillin...

I find the argument that there are people who can be damaged by something insufficient. There are always people who can be damaged by something.

It's odd, how otherwise thoughtful people tend to abandon any pretension to holistic objectivity when certain subjects are raised.