Q: for the police re disclosure

[Tank]

Okay, so tell the judge that, lay out the context, and you might find he will be leniant and agree a diversion or whatever.

Diversion or indeed a fine and 6 months walking without the criminal conviction are both out of the question with a EBA even if the Judge wanted to.

Yeah... I'd say it'd be about time to start looking at different career ideas.

Because, let's face it, he did drive drunk, didn't he? He's not going to escape a conviction. Time to accept that and move on.

The Army's an option which would still be open to him if he's dead set on doing something that involves wearing a uniform and getting paid badly.

- Being in NZ's Army is not something that would suit him somehow.

I've simply being try to find 'stuff' out to understand better. Im not basing anything substantial on this information - We have hired a lawyer who will make the decisions for him - it is based on his opinion that my son will make his plea.

Upshot is - like anyone else on criminal charges he IS entitled to a trial and any legal defense.

[scumdog]

There is a little more to it in that he thought he was sober and had stopped drinking a hours before he was called (he was asleep) to collect friends who's dedicated driver had let them down - he actually thought he was ok to drive and was trying to do the right thing. But - yes he was still over the limit.

OK people, a word to the wise for those that care/are prepared to take heed.

THE No.1 most dangerous time when drinking is when you have gone from the stage of: "Shee-it, man I feel way to pissed to drive" to a little time later (even after a sleep) "I don't feel so pissed now, yeah, I should be OK to drive".

When you get to the second stage there's a real danger you'll drive, thinking you're not that pissed.

But trust me, most of the time you will be well over.

Your body has 'adjusted' to the alcohol - but your judgement and reflexes haven't.

[Skyryder]

You just reworded my comment about the prevailing attitude that there is no moral culpability associated with a crime unless the police get the paperwork right.

Your alternitive is to suggest that with the paperwork wrong they should still be found guilty. Is that what you recommend as the burdon of proof. Tank was asking about disclosure. Should a defendent not have access to the eveidence that going to used against them?

Mind you we could take this a step further and do away with the police having to provide any evidence at all.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Upshot is - like anyone else on criminal charges he IS entitled to a trial and any legal defense.

And as his dad you have every right to act in his interests but if he pleads or is found guilty I for one would expect a good swift kick up the arse and to hell with Sue Bradford.

[Tank]

And as his dad you have every right to act in his interests but if he pleads or is found guilty I for one would expect a good swift kick up the arse and to hell with Sue Bradford.

That would be ANOTHER kick up the ass. He's had several. And he's beating himself up a lot about getting into this situation.

Im not talking 'oh fuck' I got caught - hes genuinely upset and ashamed that he was so stupid to get himself into such a position.

[marty]

Also - a thanks to all who have offered advise on the thread or via PM.


C

Sorry Tank but I have a lot of experience in the EBA process and prosecution field. A fair few beers, or spirits, need consuming for a male to blow over 500. 'I only had a couple' doesn't wash with me - I have 1st hand experience in just how much is needed to even exceed the limit - and that's going straight from the bottle to the machine - not having a sleep between.

You'll get full disclosure if you signal an intent to plead not guilty, or if you ask in writing for discovery prior to entering a plea. There is a process for receiving disclosure - you got the only thing that the prosecutor had a copy of in court - all the other evidential papers would only have had the originals on file, no copies, so you need to ask for those in writing to the prosecution office involved, and the file clerk will copy the file in its entirety and forward it to you.

[marty]

In fact i believe that if they have not disclosed the information to you, they cannot use it in evidence.

(deleted for space/bandwith)


Don't say a thing now just turn up in court with a copy of this judgement, say you asked for the evidence and show that you haven't received it.

They haven't yet, and my previous post explains why. Tank needs more than a 'I asked the prosecutor in court 4 weeks ago, and all he gave me was this summary' if he's trying to get his son off on insufficient discovery. The judge will simply remand it off for discovery to be handed over - it's unlikely they would let you ambush like that. The process goes both ways.

[scumdog]

Sorry Tank but I have a lot of experience in the EBA process and prosecution field. A fair few beers, or spirits, need consuming for a male to blow over 500. 'I only had a couple' doesn't wash with me - I have 1st hand experience in just how much is needed to even exceed the limit - and that's going straight from the bottle to the machine - not having a sleep between.

Empty stomach, 2hrs time frame and three big bottles of beer equal about 330 for this boy.

So like marty I know 'a couple of drinks' won't put you over.

And it takes many hours to drop back below the limit when you're about 600+

[Tank]

They haven't yet, and my previous post explains why. Tank needs more than a 'I asked the prosecutor in court 4 weeks ago, and all he gave me was this summary' if he's trying to get his son off on insufficient discovery. The judge will simply remand it off for discovery to be handed over - it's unlikely they would let you ambush like that. The process goes both ways.

Actually - I was trying to get information - I have no experience with this kind of thing. It just didnt sound 'right' - and now I know the full story.

We have a lawyer who will be looking at everything. Im not qualified even as a bush lawyer.

He may well say "just go guilty boy" (most likely I know) or he may say "fight it on grounds xxxx" - I guess I will find out soon enough.

[scumdog]

Actually - I was trying to get information - I have no experience with this kind of thing. It just didnt sound 'right' - and now I know the full story.

We have a lawyer who will be looking at everything. Im not qualified even as a bush lawyer.

He may well say "just go guilty boy" (most likely I know) or he may say "fight it on grounds xxxx" - I guess I will find out soon enough.

Unless the cop was a real klutz all the 'traditional' loop-holes will not get him off - they've been slowly getting closed as time goes by and fewer and fewer cases are being defended on 'technicalities' these days.

[Fatjim]

They haven't yet, and my previous post explains why. Tank needs more than a 'I asked the prosecutor in court 4 weeks ago, and all he gave me was this summary' if he's trying to get his son off on insufficient discovery. The judge will simply remand it off for discovery to be handed over - it's unlikely they would let you ambush like that. The process goes both ways.

Actually, that will probably depend on what mood the judge/JP is in.

[marty]

EBA is not dealt with by JPs as it carries a term of imprisonment. I have never seen a first call be thrown out due lack of disclosure.

[madbikeboy]

Empty stomach, 2hrs time frame and three big bottles of beer equal about 330 for this boy.

So like marty I know 'a couple of drinks' won't put you over.

And it takes many hours to drop back below the limit when you're about 600+

I'm an alien here, but the guideline that I use for booze and driving is complicated - if I am driving, I will have one beer. For the night, not each hour, but one beer total. Meaning a glass, not a keg.

Riding the bike is simpler. If I ride the bike, I won't consume alcohol within 24 hours, and if I've been drunk - I won't ride the bike for 48 hours. The rest of the world is trying to kill me when I'm on scoot, why help them by taking away any of my reflexes.

[OutForADuck]

Hey Tank, I feel for your sons position. Bad mistake and the costs might seem to outweigth the lack of judgement.

I recently took a friend through the same problem, same issues at stake too, citizenship and job etc. Much lower level though (infact lowest you can get and still be over).

But fact is the friend was still over the limit and eventually took the penalty. Knew the impact before hand just hadn't treated it with the degree of care she would have with hindsight. Guess your boys in that same position.

I spent years working in this field and can say you've got a lot of good advice here, Marty in particular seems to have the handle on the truth about it.

You've currently got full disclosure of the charge and will get full disclosure of the evidence when/if you ask and go not guitly (much of it won't be prepared until then).

Good luck with it, I can see you are as affected as your son and the only advice I can give is that as years pass by it will mean less and less to his life but the lessons will stay forever.

Follow your sense of justice both for your son and also for the community.

Seems to me you have a pretty good handle on both.


Good luck.

[CookMySock]

Here is an alternate line of thinking in this for you, Tank. Just an idea ok?

What do you really want for your son? Maybe he will be better served if you let him sink on this one. I know you want to protect him - thats just natural, but are you really helping? I'm not talking about a fine or the law, I'm talking about life.

My 15 y/o young fella L-Plater got a $170 speeding ticket - and I folded my arms and watched him sink and pay for it himself. It hurt him and it hurt me, but it was a critical lesson for him, and I got what I wanted out of it.

So whats really important to you, and what do you want from it?

best regards mate,
Steve