Kiwibiker Mentors - Opinion

[enigma51]

Its dark days when compoos starts a thread like this ...... and i agree with him.

These are strange days ahead ...... fuck i hope the greenies dont win the election

[cowpoos]

Its dark days when compoos starts a thread like this ...... and i agree with him.

Its about time you grew up!!

[Ixion]

Pfft, you can't measure someone's riding competence by how many times they haven't crashed.

People who've never crashed are either simply riding within only a tiny percentage of their bike's capabilities (and that includes people who only ever take the bike out of the garage on sunny days, etc) and are therefore unsuitable to convey information about motorcycle control dynamics, or they're ticking timebombs who don't know the risks they're running.

Or perhaps they have the sense to restrict exploration of extremes to off road situations (whether a race track environment or dirt/beach). Personally I would not criticise anyone who has crashed any number of times in a non-public-road context. But a 'mentor'/'trainer' who repeatedly crashes on the public road , IMHO, either lacks technical capabilties, or lacks the judgement and sense of "time and place" essential for such a role. And one who crashes in both contexts is even worse, since he/she must necessarily have failed to learn the lessons that the off road crashes can teach. Pushing limits off road may lead to a crash. That is why one pushes those limits. Only one lacking wisdom does that on the public road. And, having determined those limits, it would be even greater folly not to respect them and stay well clear of them when riding on the road.

Note that I am assuming here that the mentoring is related to road riding ,as is usually the case. Someone mentoring racers is another matter. And that off road riding can never teach roadcraft which is the most important thing to not being injured on the road.

[Ixion]

Are you mad?..........katman happily admits to having poor social skills and is currently in the sin-bin. What the fuck could he teach/mentor anybody??
..

Oh, like, maybe, not crashing ? Staying alive? That sort of stuff.

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person . Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.

[jrandom]

Or perhaps they have the sense to restrict exploration of extremes to off road situations (whether a race track environment or dirt/beach).

Agreed. Getting one's crashing done off of the public roads (dirt, sand, or racetrack) is the best way to go, IMHO.

When I said 'never crashed', I meant never crashed.

But a 'mentor'/'trainer' who repeatedly crashes...

See, that's an important distinction to make. Crashes happen, but when someone doesn't learn from their mistakes, you have to worry. The fact that someone has binned a bike is neither here nor there - the real question is what they took away from that.

having determined those limits...

Precisely. If one has no idea what the limits actually are, it makes it difficult to pass any meaningful wisdom along.

[James Deuce]

Precisely. If one has no idea what the limits actually are, it makes it difficult to pass any meaningful wisdom along.

We've been here before chap. You're firmly in the track days Uber Alles camp and you have this misguided notion that "limits" revolve solely around physics. Rationality, reason, compassion, courtesy, relative capability (think laterally), adaptability, creativity, flexibility all have limits. The physical limitations of the motorcycle are vastly less important than the mental limitations of the rider. BTW, I view an inability to accept that people who spend most of their time on the road riding legally might actually be good motorcyclists as a limitation.

You're misguided in your base assumptions about what defines a good rider on the road, as are 99.98% of KBers.

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

[MSTRS:Me]

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

Hmmm...it were ever the same. Testosterone-filled bravado being replaced with age-earned wisdom? And one does not relate nor listen to the other.
What a good thing we have a mix of 'types' as mentors.

[Boob Johnson]

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person. Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.

You don't see the fallout figures though do you, the Army is a very different one to days gone by


You are aware (with that analogy) that they have had to tone the Army drill instructors down in recent years? Fewer people these days respect or respond to that type of instruction.


ps: Struth hope you buggers have gotten out for a ride today, bloody gorgeous weather, I managed just a short one

[James Deuce]

You are aware (with that analogy) that they have had to tone the Army drill instructors down in recent years? Fewer people these days respect or respond to that type of instruction.

That isn't a good thing.

An inability to respond immediately in time of crisis to instructions that seem counter productive, especially in the realm of personal safety, gets people killed.

It speaks more about the society that refuses to value serving one's country above personal rights than it does about bastard drill instructors. It's their job to make sure recruits understand that life isn't fair.

[SixPackBack]

Oh, like, maybe, not crashing ? Staying alive? That sort of stuff.

While I do not always see eye to eye with Mr Katman , he is one of the few people on KB to whom I would be happy to entrust the training of a young person . Drill instructors are seldom popular either but they do manage to turn recruits into soldiers.

Interesting analogy. Drill instructors start individuals on the road to killing, not cajole younguns into riding a motorcycle. This 'aint the 50's, and it 'aint the army!

While its true some folk will have the ability to see past the questionable manner-many will not. Those that do not will come away with a negative impression of KB and KBers and worse perhaps motorcycling as well.

I accept mentors are not entered into a popularity contest but they do need additional attributes outside of the ability to ride a motorcycle. Those attributes include the ability to communicate on an individual level, empathy and the ability to give respect and be respected.

[Katman]

Now fucking drop and give me 50, maggot!!!!!!!!

[McJim]

I accept mentors are not entered into a popularity contest but they do need additional attributes outside of the ability to ride a motorcycle. Those attributes include the ability to communicate on an individual level, empathy and the ability to give respect and be respected.

More specifically one of the roles of Mentor is to provide encouagement. This doesn't get provided by a constant barage of negative comments - even if they are always signed "Fuckwit"

[Pussy]

That isn't a good thing.

An inability to respond immediately in time of crisis to instructions that seem counter productive, especially in the realm of personal safety, gets people killed.

It speaks more about the society that refuses to value serving one's country above personal rights than it does about bastard drill instructors. It's their job to make sure recruits understand that life isn't fair.

Another pearl of wisdom, Jim! There will always be those who aren't tough enough to hack the pace, who want their Mummy when things get a bit tough. I suppose we should send them a bunch of flowers. Poofters!

[jrandom]

But it will be a long time before you get what us old slow people are trying to say.

I understand and support what you're trying to say.

Bear in mind, though, that I'm not one of your gung-ho toothpaste-tube racer wannabes; I know I'm a plodding and mostly uncoordinated rider, and am quite happy to live within my own modest limitations.

So I think you might be generalising my comments overmuch and doing a bit of a Chicken Little; I'm simply pointing out that there are 'mentors' who lack basic bike control capabilities.

It would be just as valid to point out that there are 'mentors' who lack communication skills (as I note that some people who haven't met him in person have claimed is the case with Katman), or have a terrible attitude toward safety.

My primary underlying issue is that I want to see motorcycling attitudes and skills percolating around in an equitable manner amongst peer groups, not being decreed from on high. The particular shortcomings I've pointed out in this thread are just examples of what happens when that formula isn't adhered to.

I generally don't support any effort of a community to organise itself into a hierarchy. It inevitably results in unworthy individuals preening themselves over arbitrary status symbols. Distasteful.

[MSTRS:Me]

Geez Dan. I wouldn't have thought you'd be a proponent of anarchy on our roads. Except insofaras as it relates to you and your riding, that is
And what peer group learning are you talking about? Your basic newbie who doesn't know he's not Rossi being shown the ropes by Carver, say? One of your basic AU types imparting his 'skills' to Mr Mid-life Crisis Returnee? They aren't peers, and that is a recipe for disaster.
And what hierarchy? Preening itself?
What bollocks.