Accident report

[Naki Rat]

uh, what?

Maybe easier to understand with diagrams See bottom series of cross sections.

i've seen many a non-urban corner with a nasty off camber, though the crown in the road usually has nothing to do with it

"Off camber" is a colloquial term describing insufficient superelevation of a corner either by bad design or pavement deformation. This also explains the design shortfalls of a rural road as opposed to a state highway.

[Shadows]

Not quite! The 'crown' in the road cross section reduces on a corner with super-elevation (camber), with the outside lane gradually lifting as the corner tightens. This lifting continues until the crossfall of the roadway is one continuous gradient across the entire road width. On many corners this crossfall will steepen further, reaching a maximum at the apex of the corner.

The exception to this is that urban roadways (i.e. 50km/h zones) are not normally designed with camber.

Think I'd go with the less run-off space and optional head-on reasoning for this one.

Yes, quite true on a well designed and constructed road. So many of them aren't.

[scumdog]

we could ban risk takers... oh wait, it's called dangerous driving and carries a hefty fine too

Mehh, only if said driving was a danger to any person....

[RT527]

Mehh, only if said driving was a danger to any person....

Which unless your an alien that would mean the person operating the vehicle is putting his person in danger .......so that would be dangerous driving, would it not?.

[Naki Rat]

Which unless your an alien that would mean the person operating the vehicle is putting his person in danger .......so that would be dangerous driving, would it not?.

No. More like natural selection

[motorbyclist]

it's pretty subjective really

simply getting off my chair and walking puts me in a slight danger (of tripping)

travelling on the back of a machine doing 100kph can be considered a bit more dangerous.... then continuing to squeeze between stationary vehicles less than a metre apart while holding the same speed is yet more so.... where the individual draws the line and the police draw the line will never match up. we always get the "that was fine", "that was borderline", and "that was stupidly dangerous, give back my acc" responses to all of these threads

but my point was is they already have laws in place to deal with idiocy, and it's the idiots who will continue to break them no matter how draconian the laws become - and with more draconian measures like blanket bans, the rest of will get 'punished' because of some idiot's actions

[Katman]

and with more draconian measures like blanket bans, the rest of will get 'punished' because of some idiot's actions

Exactly - hence my "campaign".

[PrincessBandit]

This thread got me to thinking about airing a question about 'what happens if... ?'

Some will know that I'm currently recuperating after emergency brain surgery on 30 August. Seems that I was on the verge of a major stroke, or worse, sudden death due to a cyst being in a not very good place inside my grey matter. Anyways... how would I have counted statistically if I had had that stroke or sudden death while I was riding on a straight peice of road in the 'rapa at about 100kph, or even coming up or going down the 'takas with the boys? Would I have just been one of those stupid over 40's on a supersport bike who was playing above his weight? I'm sure that's how it would have been represented in the press in the immediate aftermath, but what about in the statistics in the long run?

Just putting it out there.

I haven't waded right through this whole thread yet, but was also intrigued by the 7 page document (yes, scan read it all and downloaded for an closer look tomorrow when I'm not so tired). It certainly does get one thinking, and I found the stats concerning older riders interesting as well as the very last comment. It went something like "despite learner and restricted licence holders being restricted to 250cc and under .........blah blah......no. of deaths/injuries while riding bikes bigger than their restriction".
Now, getting to why I quoted you, I remember reading a booklet waaaaaay back when I first started riding (2 years ago) which contained a comment I've not forgotten. It was aimed primarily at guys who pillion their girlfriends and how the pillion needs to understand that their behaviour can impact hugely on the outcome of a ride. The example used was 'your girlfriend digs you in the ribs [or some such "girlie" type of thing] causing you to lose control of your bike on a bend. Your death will be chalked up as "lost control of motorcycle on bend" rather than more accurately pillion distraction.' Which does mean than statistics, in and of themselves, don't always paint an accurate image. However fatal heart attacks while riding or a brain aneurysm while on your bike would be quite rare I'd have thought, but then you never know eh.

[Paul in NZ]

OK - I'll try and make a point.....

Yes - you can pick statistics to bits, we all know they are hardly perfect and that the info gathering is slightly warped BUT they are generally good at revealing trends. However you look at it there are some alarming numbers there yet the most alarming thing of all is that the spotlight of attention is swinging onto motorcyclists as a group to be targetted!

For example...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4804914a11.html

Now - we will all have a theory about the fairness of this - thats wonderful but pointless. People will persist in coming up with all kinds of ways of killing themselves and others while justifying it all. The problem I have is that I'm shortly going to be faced with higher ACC levies, taxes, fines and police attention because of this. Effectively I'll get taxed off the roads because of these morons and I'm not happy.

I'm old and have been riding since the early 70's. Every generation there is a new bunch of 'well ard' types that dive into biking boots n all and within a week are hardened bikers with a menacing 1000 yd stare and an evil reputation for crashing and burning (but I'm still riding) - within 2 or 3 summers they 'disappear' and the cautious / sustainable riders pick up the tattered reputation of motorcycling and ride on.

I'm 52, I'll ride as long as I can start the triumph and then find something with electric starting unless I'm taxed off the road - I'd appreciate a bit of help here folks.....

[gammaguy]

OK - I'll try and make a point.....


I'm old and have been riding since the early 70's. Every generation there is a new bunch of 'well ard' types that dive into biking boots n all and within a week are hardened bikers with a menacing 1000 yd stare and an evil reputation for crashing and burning (but I'm still riding) - within 2 or 3 summers they 'disappear' and the cautious / sustainable riders pick up the tattered reputation of motorcycling and ride on.

I'm 52, I'll ride as long as I can start the triumph and then find something with electric starting unless I'm taxed off the road - I'd appreciate a bit of help here folks.....

well said


for some people motorcycling is treated as an extreme sport.next year they will be windsurfing,bungee jumping.whatever.

for me its a way of life,and that why i take it seriously enough to have a huge amount of fun but still be around to ride tomorrow and hopefully for a long time to come.

[sinfull]

I'm 52, I'll ride as long as I can start the triumph and then find something with electric starting unless I'm taxed off the road - I'd appreciate a bit of help here folks.....

Geeeez Paul i can try, but it has been a while since i kicked a triumph over !! But i'm keen to try an refresh my skills !

[Motu]

for some people motorcycling is treated as an extreme sport.next year they will be windsurfing,bungee jumping.whatever.

There seems to be excess interest given to the older riders in the statistics - but I think these extreme sport types would show higher if we had a way to categorize them.It's easy to find a guy dead on the road,turn over his license and find his age,write it down as a statistic - but it's just so un PC to say he gave it all he had,pushed everything to the limit and lived for the thrill...no mater if it was on a bike,the surf ski,the kayak etc.That's what killed him,not that he was riding a motorcycle.

Like Paul,I'm going to be really pissed off if costs,rules and regulations stops me from riding my bike....I've already sold two this year to cut back to the one registered,WoF'd and insured bike I can afford.I'm just quietly pottering away in my corner of the world,harming no one....why should I pay the costs.

Like James mentions in another thread - ride like a nana for a couple of months,watch us drop off the radar.Can we do it? I'm still a hippy at heart,I still believe in Utopia....

[Oscar]

Is it just me or do some of our comrades have their heads firmly in the sand?

The Ministry of Transport says the number of people dying in motorbike crashes is rising.

Three people were killed in a motorbike collision on the Christchurch - Akaroa highway on Saturday - taking the total number of rider and pillion passenger deaths to 50.

The ministry says that's almost a third more than the 38 fatalities recorded by the same point in 2006 and 2007.

It believes the higher number of deaths is directly related to the number of new motorbike registrations: some 16,000 more motorbikes were registered in 2007 alone.

Transport Ministry spokesperson David Crawford says the number of motorbike crash injuries has doubled since 2002.

He says older people, who are returning to riding with bigger bikes after years away, have also been causing a large number of accidents.

But the Bikers Rights Organisation disagrees. President Finn Nielsen told Summer Report on Monday that he doubts a lack of skill can be blamed.

Copyright © 2008 Radio New Zealand

The stats say returning riders are killing themselves in increasing numbers.
The road toll for motorcycles is up.
Three are killed by another rider.

Exactly what is to blame, Mr. Finn?

[Tone165]

Is it just me or do some of our comrades have their heads firmly in the sand?



The stats say returning riders are killing themselves in increasing numbers.
The road toll for motorcycles is up.
Three are killed by another rider.

Exactly what is to blame, Mr. Finn?

If I might address this one...

1st thing to say is that when dealing with this sort of thing..one must enter at the far end of the feild...and NOT at a reasonable starting point for discussion.

We..the motorcyclists..must put the main focus on outside factors, without denying the facts.

I wont bore you with figures that are subject to manipulation,

A large number of MC crashes are single vehicle ones, that means that they were rider error..


But what about the pothole or peice o crap on the road! I hear you say..

Environmental???? Could be, but also can be that the rider "Should" have been riding to suit actual AND possible conditions...food for debate at least!

Clearly there are problems that need to be looked at in the area of rider training, roadcraft, skills development etc...

But..to be quoted in the major press that the problem is "mainly" the riders themselves, would be to releive the wider community of responsibility.

We need to raise awareness, not provide "outs" for anyone.

I'm a huge advocate of rider training here in SEQ where we have exactly the same problems. We don't have anyone doing the BRONZ thing here.

We do have some new laws...eg..."A rider must face forward when riding a motorcycle" I shit you not!....this is how Govt reacts to things..with dopey laws!

So..the real question here is why are you bagging the guy, when you should be 110% supporting him, and BRONZ, to act on your behalf, among the wider community!

We can train and practice and drill and study and be the worlds best riders.....do you think that would mean no more dead bikers???

We can fix our own problems ourselves...in house, but NOT if restrictive and ineffective laws are passed.....imagine if the 250cc rule was extended to everyone!

What a success it would be...road deaths would be down heaps.....don't try and deny it...because for a start..half of the riders out there would give up riding if they had to go back to a 250.

So c'mon Kiwi's...back your man, dissention in the ranks is not helpful..because there are plenty of Non MC folk to raise the negative arguements!

And they can do it much better than you, because they are not held back by any actual knowledge of what the hell they are on about!

[Katman]

So..the real question here is why are you bagging the guy, when you should be 110% supporting him, and BRONZ, to act on your behalf, among the wider community!

Personally, I'd like to see BRONZ being a little more forthcoming with an audible and public affirmation that motorcyclist's shit does, in fact, stink.

Organised bodies who claim to represent motorcyclists do more harm than good by denying the fact that the majority of our misfortunes are of our own doing.

(Which is the reason the Anti WRB campaign is going nowhere).