Fisher & Paykel my arse...

[Manxman]

(Some) problems associated with government support of private companies:

1) why (do they have a sustainable business model even if more $$ are thrown at them [a la US car manufacturers, which don't]. If they do fail, won't someone take them over anyway and run a leaner business model with the same branding)?

2) what for (to service debt, acquire equity [a la Air NZ] or just carry on paying the fat cats' annual bonuses [a la AIG)?

3) where does it (the financial support) end (1,2,3,6,12 months? Forever?)?

4) how does the govt measure how well the bale out is being used, and when - as the actress said to the bishop - should it pull out? I had to sit down in disbelief just after Christmas, when a US Treasury spokesman got up in front of the world's media and admitted that they didn't know how the (first) $700m had been spent. Fark, I think that if I had just dished out that sort of dosh, I'd want to know exactly where it had gone on a weekly, if not daily basis. What-A-Dick.

5) when (tomorrow, next week, next year? ie when they're almost in the poo, or completely up to their eyeballs?)?

6) who gets it and what criteria are used (F&P, State Ins, Farmers, Rebel Sport, etc [not that they're all in the poo yet]).

7) return to 1) Why?

It's a really tricky one.

I don't agree that govt should support private enterprise directly, but at times like this keeping people in jobs has to be priority, cos if people aren't in jobs, they aren't spending, which reduces retail demand, which takes down businesses, which creates redundancies. Full circle. And off it goes all over again.

The other thing that commentators are now starting to talk about is consumer confidence. If people are pessimistic, then they'll stop spending regardless of whether they're in a job or not. Bugger.

However, how do you instill confidence into people to make then spend again - now that's gonna require some real leadership from someone...maybe it's time the Big Fella paid us a second visit.

Therefore, the biggest trick is to keep people parting with their $$$.

Some in socialist Europe are talking about there needing to be a fundamental change to the capitalist model, and to be fair they're probably not wrong (I've been telling people that the days of capitalism are numbered, for about the past three years). I mean, who looks up at bankers and financiers that got the world into this mess and doesn't say "Greedy bastards. If only I could get my hands on them".

Those people will, however, rot in Hell. Of that I have no doubt, and I'll be first in the queue stoking the fires.

PS I'm a pessimist on this one (did ya guess). The world economy is in complete freefall presently and has a looong way to go yet. NZ has only just walked up to the edge of the precipice and is looking over the edge... I'd give it 12 months or less before we start to realise we're in deep hole, and we ain't got no ladder.

Finally, an unstable economic world, plus growing envy and uncertainty over scarce resources could lead us down some really dangerous paths.

[I'm off to take a happy pill or five]

[munster]

maybe it's time the Big Fella paid us a second visit

Santa? The kids will be happy I spose. . . . .

[Forest]

as bad as this sounds, nz is not an economic manufacture of products. so instead of forcing companies to suffer with trying to make it work in a country where it cannot work (on large scale manufacturing) you should be looking at how we can change in order to produce large scale manufacturing OR decide "no we are not, and cannot be good at this" and find an alternative industry that we can excel at.

but thats way too hard right.

Bullshit. There is definitely room for intelligent and profitable manufacturing in New Zealand. Just look at successful New Zealand companies like Hubbard Foods.

Talk of a predominantly services based economy is retarded. We cannot build an economy that is based on cutting each other's hair.

[MisterD]

But F&P did make it work for over 50 years. Including recent years since Rogernomics.

So do quite a few NZ companies. Navamn, Racom , the dude in Christchurch. The boat jet engine thing, quite a few others , and lots I don't know about.

You must distinguish between mass large scale manufacture of commodity items (plastic knickknacks) and skilled high tech manufacture . Which we are actually quite good at.

Navman mostly contract manufactures in various Asian locations, Rakon have recently started manufacturing in China...don't know which dude you mean in ChCh? Icebreaker use NZ wool, but manufacture in China...

The fact is that unless you're doing some high-end niche-y thing it's f-ing difficult to compete with the likes of China. What F&P, Navman, Rakon, Gallaghers etc have shown is that what we really do well here is design and engineering, why else do you think 'merkin GPS giant Trimble have a facility in Christchurch?

Unfortunately F&P are in a bit of poo because they decided to expand into Europe and US and got caught on the hop (just like everybody else) as those markets went into recession and their debt multiplied as the exchange rate went south...they're an otherwise solid, profitable, company.

What JK has said is that the government favour commercial solutions for commercial problems, but would look at what they can do to help, possibly with changes to legislation or regulations. Would you rather that, or Clark's ho-hum "It's the way of the world."?

[firecracker]

Some top points here and certainly food for thought.

There's no doubt that businesses can do very well in NZ, particularly with the notion of the loyal customer. I know tons of people who would prefer to buy NZ made as opposed to spending their hard earnt cash on something manufactured offshore, even if it does cost a little more. Yes, something needs to be done about regulating cost at government level too, there's a fine line between loyalty and businesses exploiting that through the price tag.

As a tax payer, I'd be happy to see money put into help with sustaining the local business market. It's too late once they've gotten themselves offshore and in the shit, they can go bust for all I care.

Why didn't F&P put a design/engineer/marketing team together to make the most of national consumerism? For instance, with the new awareness on heating and sustainability, Kiwi's would've been all over it and happy to have F&P on their gear.

As mentioned F&P have been around for years and have lost a bloody lot from moving. Shareholder confidence, consumer confidence, their pedigree, the list goes on.........

They will end up tits up. And there will be no tears in my heart for them.

[pzkpfw]

My previous and current F&P dishwashers have convinced me to try another brand next time.

I hope the designers of the front panels and door latches were the first people fired.


Current issue:

Does anyone know where the flood sensor is on a F&P Nautilus or Nemo dishwasher? I keep getting F1 (flood) errors during the cycle and the bloody thing stops.

Doing dishes by hand really really sucks.

[Beemer]

Yes, and you would have some sympathy if their prices dropped when they moved production offshore but they didn't. And from letters to the DomPost recently, the quality hasn't matched the NZ-made models.

I certainly don't think I'll bother supporting them by buying their products in the future.

[davereid]

Even the biggest trees in the forest should be allowed to fall over.

If there is sufficient sun, new trees will feed and thrive instead of rotting in the shade.

If there is not enough sun, trees shouldn't grow there anyway, another species will be sure to find its place.

[Beemer]

Even the biggest trees in the forest should be allowed to fall over.

If there is sufficient sun, new trees will feed and thrive instead of rotting in the shade.

If there is not enough sun, trees shouldn't grow there anyway, another species will be sure to find its place.

Very well put - isn't that what business - and indeed life - is all about. If you're good enough and have all the right processes in place, you usually do well. If you don't, then you probably don't deserve the success in the first place.

If the government bails out F & P, where does it stop? Can they come back in a year and ask for more if they are still in the shit? And what about other companies - can they all come with their hands out or does it have to be an 'iconic' company to qualify for a bail out? So maybe Canterbury Apparel would qualify but not Zambesi, etc.

[=cJ=]

Even the biggest trees in the forest should be allowed to fall over.

If there is sufficient sun, new trees will feed and thrive instead of rotting in the shade.

If there is not enough sun, trees shouldn't grow there anyway, another species will be sure to find its place.

Problem is, a company is a bit more than a tree, in that if a tree falls it's an individual. When a company falls, it can stuff up several hundred individuals if it's a big enough company.

You've then got to either have a good welfare system in place to get these workers through until another company pops up, or the workers have to have a decent saving ethic to get through lean times. Given the lack of the latter in NZ, we're relying on the former, unless NZ has a pretty big shift in how we spend and save...

[discotex]

I'd rather see the government give F&P some bridging finance rather than hand out the same money in benefits to everyone that's made redundant.

If they're willing to be audited to show they can survive and then pay back the loan in 2-5 years it's all good.

If auditing shows they're already totally fucked then let them fail or nationalise as a last resort.

EDIT: I imagine Feltex shareholders must be spitting tacks over this

[James Deuce]

Does anyone know where the flood sensor is on a F&P Nautilus or Nemo dishwasher? I keep getting F1 (flood) errors during the cycle and the bloody thing stops.

Ask Whirlpool. They made them.

Not only do F&P rip Kiwis off blind they pass off other conpany's hugely inferior product as their own. I have an F&P fridge that has lasted 20 years. I have an F&P dishwasher bought 3 years ago that has been replaced twice, the last time with a shop floor demo model that is scratched to buggery. I'm supposed to be thankful because it was replaced out of warranty. We''l ignore the 5 control panels and the pump that have been replaced under warranty as well shall we?

There's more to manufacturing than cheap labour.

[Max Preload]

I imagine Feltex shareholders must be spitting tacks over this

Indeed... at least Feltex were using NZ made materials. At least, I think they were...

Ask Whirlpool. They made them.

Not only do F&P rip Kiwis off blind they pass off other conpany's hugely inferior product as their own. I have an F&P fridge that has lasted 20 years. I have an F&P dishwasher bought 3 years ago that has been replaced twice, the last time with a shop floor demo model that is scratched to buggery. I'm supposed to be thankful because it was replaced out of warranty. We''l ignore the 5 control panels and the pump that have been replaced under warranty as well shall we?

You should have hammered fuck out of them under the CGA.

There's more to manufacturing than cheap labour.

Yes. To F&P there's planned obsolescence. I know a guy who used to be involved in durability testing for F&P and he says that they would work extremely hard to ensure that their products did not last unduly. Then there's the poor wages because of the 'prestige' of working for such an 'icon'. Hopefully, now the 'presitige' of working there is diminished, some of the lemmings will wake up to the fact it means nothing.

[malfunconz]

if the gov' gonna give money away were do you sign up.

[toymachine]

Beyond the Kelvinator series i wouldn't look at fisher n' paykel.. i mean what self respecting bogan doesn't have a Kelvinator fridge in the home/garage/workshop