Choosing parenthood - Women vs men

[MsKABC]

OK, I confess I was watching daytime TV, Dr. Phil to be precise. The show today was about men who have fathered children and wanted to opt out of taking any part in the child's life and/or paying child support. Their argument was that they made every effort to ensure a child was not created. They'd also made it clear to their partner beforehand that they didn't want to be a father and therefore they were under no obligation. They pointed out that no-one forces women to become parents against their will as they have the option of termination or adopting out (in many societies at least). Why should men be forced to take responsibility if women aren't?

I'd never really looked at it this way, and they do have a point. It's quite a double standard in many respects.

Thoughts?

[McDuck]

[The Pastor]

Im agaisnt abortion, but for killing babies.

You lose, i win.

[MsKABC]

Im agaisnt abortion, but for killing babies.

You lose, i win.

I asked for thoughts, not brain farts.

[Maha]

On one hand, I can see thier point, no wait, thats a callus, anyway as I was saying.....Being an American show, its a wonder couples dont have legal documents drawn up before fucking each other to ensure that neither life is screwed. Seems to me, that if a female gets pregnant, the guy involved did not cover up before penetration, and the ejaculation that followed did its job wonderfully! He will soon be a dad, deal with it if the above document was not signed by both parties.

[Monobrow]

Their argument was that they made every effort to ensure a child was not created.

Sounds to me like they didn't make every effort, every effort would mean no kid.

You can't force a woman to have an abortion. Contraception is never 100% failsafe.

Sounds like they need to htfu, take responsibility for their actions and learn not to rely on someone else to take care of the contraception.

[klingon]

OK, I confess I was watching daytime TV, Dr. Phil to be precise. The show today was about men who have fathered children and wanted to opt out of taking any part in the child's life and/or paying child support. Their argument was that they made every effort to ensure a child was not created. They'd also made it clear to their partner beforehand that they didn't want to be a father and therefore they were under no obligation. They pointed out that no-one forces women to become parents against their will as they have the option of termination or adopting out (in many societies at least). Why should men be forced to take responsibility if women aren't?

I'd never really looked at it this way, and they do have a point. It's quite a double standard in many respects.

Thoughts?

Hmm... well if it really is true that they made "every effort to ensure a child was not created" (presumably every effort except abstinence), then I would like to know whether the woman also took "every effort."

If they both did their best to avoid it and she got pregnant anyway, then they are both equally responsible for the baby/child. If his idea of making sure it didn't happen was just to leave full responsibility for contraception up to her, then he also has some responsibility for the result.

But if he made "every effort" and she somehow tricked him into fathering a child in the hope that he would change his mind after the event, then it's her responsibility to deal with the consequesnces, not his.

I think each case would need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. MsKABC, do you have an example for us to consider?

[Tank]

Even with a condom there is always a change of a pregnancy.


If it does the absent (in the scenario above) fathers life is impacted signifantly - he cops financial responsibility for the next 18 years!!!

But - He gets off pretty light in comparison to the woman.

What you are proposing (or Dr Phil is) is that the woman take full responsibility for any pregnancy where the guy didnt want a baby? yeah right that would work.

[Disco Dan]

Their argument was that they made every effort to ensure a child was not created. They'd also made it clear to their partner beforehand that they didn't want to be a father and therefore they were under no obligation.

Okay - male no longer responsible.

They pointed out that no-one forces women to become parents against their will as they have the option of termination or adopting out (in many societies at least). Why should men be forced to take responsibility if women aren't?

Woman however now has responsibility of both parties in her hands. A rather 'unfair advantage' that was unfortunately contributed to (NOT caused by) the male.

If two consenting people agree beforehand that neither or one wants a baby the responsibility should lie in the hands of the person not wanting the baby ie man does not want a baby, female become pregnant - decision lies with male not female to terminate or not.

If two people have intercourse they are technically giving consent for a baby to be born. Unless - one or both object and every reasonable measure is taken (ie contraception).


I am sure the feminist liberal women on this forum will strongly disagree - tough, it's MY opinion!

[EatOrBeEaten]

Having had to make this decision (and yeah, we were careful. Looks like Mr. Durex was on an off-day) a few years ago, I told my then partner that the decision was ultimately mine, and as such I should have to bear the responsibility of that decision.

As much as I hate the idea of men knocking women up and doing a runner, in a situation like mine the decision rested solely with me as the responsible adult I am (and given it was my uterus, it should be my call). The idea of having a sprog against the other partner's wishes then making them pay for what was a joint creation seems like double standards to me...

[Stirts]

To be perfectly honest guys do get a pretty shitty deal.

If a girl decides she wants a baby....she can bloody well do it without the consent of a male! And yes there are plenty of psycho females out there that do this!!

And if I am not mistaken these psycho girls can even put the fathers name on the birth certificate to legally bind them into taking responsibility for a child they didn't want!!! WTF!

How would prove/dis-prove "every effort" to esure a baby is not created?

Sure use the birth certificate as a legally binding agreement, but get both mom and dad to sign it stating that they are to jointly assume care for the child.

No daddy signature = no daddy responsibility

[Mom]

Personally I have ALWAYS taken control of my fertility, I dont want a child ergo I take steps to prevent it from happening. Common sense really. In the years away from chemical intervention that meant, no condom, no sex, simple easy and effective contraception.

Of course accidents can happen, nothing bar abstinence is 100% fail safe, in this instance I think it is a case of hard luck to the pair of you, you both did the deed and took steps to prevent unwanted baby, but you still managed to create one. Therefore you both have to take responsibility. Termination is not something that can be demanded from a woman, nor is adoption. The baby did not ask to be conceived and has the right to be, just as the mother has the right to want to raise it herself.

Takes two to make a baby afterall. Just because he says I dont want to be a father, it is still his problem too!

[MsKABC]

He will soon be a dad, deal with it if the above document was not signed by both parties.

There was a "Men's Advocate" on the programme, saying that for a very short time after conception, a man should have the ability to "opt out", if you like.

Sounds to me like they didn't make every effort, every effort would mean no kid.

You can't force a woman to have an abortion. Contraception is never 100% failsafe.

Sounds like they need to htfu, take responsibility for their actions and learn not to rely on someone else to take care of the contraception.

Yes, the only sure-fire (no pun intended) way to avoid conception is abstinence. I think in one case contraception had failed, and in the other, the woman told the bloke she was on the pill, presumably she lied.

If they both did their best to avoid it and she got pregnant anyway, then they are both equally responsible for the baby/child. If his idea of making sure it didn't happen was just to leave full responsibility for contraception up to her, then he also has some responsibility for the result.

But if he made "every effort" and she somehow tricked him into fathering a child in the hope that he would change his mind after the event, then it's her responsibility to deal with the consequesnces, not his.

I think each case would need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. MsKABC, do you have an example for us to consider?

I didn't see the whole programme and I was trying to entertain a boisterous toddler, but one case involved a guy who'd fathered a child with a woman and I think the contraception had failed. She informed him she was pregnant very early on and it ended up going to court a couple of times. He got thrown out both times. The second case involved a guy finding out two years later that a former girlfriend had had his child and was demanding child support. She'd told him she was on the pill, unclear as to whether she'd lied or it had failed her. In the interim, he had gotten married and started his own family.

If it does the absent (in the scenario above) fathers life is impacted signifantly - he cops financial responsibility for the next 18 years!!!

But - He gets off pretty light in comparison to the woman.

Too true, and perhaps this is why the law says that women can terminate pregnancies or adopt out, whilst men have to financially support the child. Or does it stem from some traditional societal convention that a man must support a woman?

What you are proposing (or Dr Phil is) is that the woman take full responsibility for any pregnancy where the guy didnt want a baby? yeah right that would work.

No, no - I'm not proposing anything. I feel quite strongly that if a guy gets his willy out then he should be prepared to face the consequences. I do see the double standard present however. It's a very complicated situation, and involves the life of an innocent third party.

[Mom]

To be perfectly honest guys do get a pretty shitty deal.

If a girl decides she wants a baby....she can bloody well do it without the consent of a male! And yes there are plenty of psycho females out there that do this!!

And if I am not mistaken these psycho girls can even put the fathers name on the birth certificate to legally bind them into taking responsibility for a child they didn't want!!! WTF!

How would prove/dis-prove "every effort" to esure a baby is not created?

Sure use the birth certificate as a legally binding agreement, but get both mom and dad to sign it stating that they are to jointly assume care for the child.

No daddy signature = no daddy responsibility

Interesting aside to this too Stirts, I agree there are septic females out there that are fully capable of catching a guy out, no doubt about it.

Here in NZ when you sign up for the DPB, unless you name the father of your baby you are not given then same level of benefit as when you do, you get paid less. Dont even start me about child support here.

I had a friend, seperated from her partner and went on the DBP as her boy was really young. Her ex had to pay 18% of his income to IRD for child support, he was a good earner too btw. She on the other hand got $12.50 per week child support paid to her from IRD. She asked him for some money to help buy the lad a pair of shoes, he refused as he was paying so much already (fair enough). No equity there, fathers forced to pay huge sums of money each week, and the mother of his child gets a pittance. Oh, and this works both ways too, it really sucks to have 18% of your pay deducted each week and paid to your dickhead ex, when you have sole care of one child and weekabout care of the other two. DAMHIK!

EDIT: Opps I got started

[EatOrBeEaten]

It's a bloody minefield to be sure. I used to know a couple back in the UK who were engaged. They were trying for a sprog and she got pregnant. He changed his mind on the whole thing, got cold feet, and cancelled the wedding. After a year of treating her like shit he finally dumped her. His daughter is 5 now and he pays her mum a small amount and only sees her about twice a year. He tried to argue that he had changed his mind on it so she should terminate or accept that he had no input, the cheeky bastard.

Every case is different, but there's a lot to be said for making absolutely sure that you can't spawn unless both of you really really want it....