the progressive workers' strike

[terbang]

You said quote: "Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb."

Yup exactly what I said..
But not: "we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime"
Those are your words or interpretation.
Still waiting on your wisdom with capitalism as you must know so much about it to boldly state "Capitalism is the way of the world son". And I can't wait for your expansion on what defines a "Low life"..
Or are they just rantings of a small man with a big mouth..

[Finn]

Yup exactly what I said..
But not: "we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime"
Those are your words or interpretation.
Still waiting on your wisdom with capitalism as you must know so much about it to boldly state "Capitalism is the way of the world son". And I can't wait for your expansion on what defines a "Low life"..
Or are they just rantings of a small man with a big mouth..

What do you think is happening in China and the rest of Asia? As for low life's, try watching the news tonight.

So how many posters of Helen Clark and Stalin do you have around your house?

[terbang]

So how many posters of Helen Clark and Stalin do you have around your house?

Uncle Joe's also in the family album..

[ManDownUnder]

That may be fair enough, if I , as a lawnmower pusher am able to say "Your $10 per hour is inadequate. There are those willing to pay $15. Mow your own lawn". But, what if all the lawn owners for miles around have gotten together and agreed that they will pay only $5 per hour.

Let their grass grow, stop mowing lawns and find something else to do that pays better.

As a lawn mower pusher, I cannot survive on $5 per hour. But I (and my fellow lawn mower pushers) cannot find work at any other figure, because of the cartel of lawn owners. So, in effect the capitalist benefit of owning the lawn is used by the capitalists to force me into poverty. Of course you may say, well, in that case give up lawn mowing and take up other work. So I give up the work I spent years training for (well, not in the case of lawn mower pushing, but you get my drift) and take up hedge trimming. Only to find that the capitalists own all the hedges , too, and have clubbed together and agreed that none of them will pay more than $4 per hour.

And still I say - stop mowing lawns and find something that pays better. I (as the owner of the lawn) may not find anyone willing to mow my lawns for $5/hour at which point I either let them grow, or mow them myself.

They're my lawns - it's my choice.

Turn the example on it's head, what if every restaurant in town started charging a minimum $80/plate? Think they'd be in business long? I don;t owe them the money for the right to dine at their establishment - I have the right to refuise their services and do whatever the hell I want.

Society at large owes me nothing... nothing... it's up to me to find something valuable to contribute.

If we still had, as we once did, a society where shops were individually owned, each run by the owner standing behind the counter, then that would be a different matter. I would say to the worker "Well, if Grocer George will not pay enough, then leave him and take a job with Grocer Greg. If none of them , without collusion between them, think that you are worth what you want, then maybe you need to rethink your position. Or work harder. Or start your OWN grocery store". But that model is long gone, replaced by the giant corporation. And the simplistic "get a better job" is no longer a valid solution for more than a small minority.

I disagree. The small shop has plenty to offer and commands loyalty from some locals, as well as having the ability to manoeuvre (I hate speling that word) around the giants. The simple thing is to give the shoppers what they want.

In time of falling house prices, people want to sell... get out of the housing market. That (of course) is the best time to buy - give them what they want... money

If people want cheap goods, let them go to the WalMarts etc, I wouldn't dream of competing with them - why take them head on - that's dumb. Find a niche and stick to it. Look in overseas magazines (free from the library for those of you with no money) and see what you think would sell in NZ.

Learn about the industry (again, info free from the library, and newspapers - in said library). Then go knock on some doors... see if you can sell them.

Don't sit there in a hovel. Go look for a job.

With respect (and of course I know nothing about you) I see you equating your own position with that of the corporations. I do not think they are likely to be the same. I imagine that , in fact, you are more akin to Grocer Greg, albeit with a virtual shop counter. Providing goods or services through your own endeavours. You say "I'm working harder now than ever to improve my lot" (a sentiment with which no socialist would quibble). But do you think that any of the directors of Progressive would say "I will work harder to improve the lot of Progressive". No. they say "You work harder"

No - the directors will work harder to maximise the returns to those that have invested in the company and require a return - or those investors move their money, the corporate bastards go out of business, and they have to sack everyone who will call them... corporate bastards.

The workers have a similar choice, they work in a simple transactional environment. I give you this work, you give me that cash. Any time the equation changes the proposition gets re-evaluated... just as it is right now.

If I was working their, I'd be looking for work, sweeping the streets, polishing bikes... whatever it took to put food on the table until I found security somewhere else.

The socialist has no argument with the entrapreneur. And classically there was much movement of people between the ranks of small businessman, and worker and back again. And where that model still exists there is seldom any industrial friction. When was the last time you heard of motor mechanics going on strike? It will seldom happen because the motor mechanicing industry is still one of independant operators (people like Mr Motu, for example). If a mechanic thinks he is undervalued by his boss, he can quit and seek a job with any of the many other garages around. Or hire premises and set up for himself. And in some cases, later on, close his business and go back to working for another. These options are not available to the Progressive workers. Can any one of them set up his own grocery distribution centre. Or even his own supermarket.

Yes. Plan ahead, plow up your back lawn, plant the bastard in... potatoes, and sell them fresh, delivered to the dor, pre-cooked... whatever.

But yes. I prefer to think in terms of how something can be done. Yes it's hard, and yes many things are not going to work, so sit back, look and learn before comitting effort into a venture, but then when you do step, do it properly.

There is always opportunity. People are inherantly lazy. Do something for them, they'll pay you for it. Maybe not as much as you want - in which case do something else.

And the corporation is as much the enemy of the entrapreneur as it that of the worker. How many small businesses have been ruthlessly destroyed by some giant corporation moving in on them?

a lot, and yes I know - I happen to be starting a small business in NZ right now (que the plug... www.newwater.co.nz)

Trust me - I know...

[Ixion]

And still I say - stop mowing lawns and find something that pays better. I (as the owner of the lawn) may not find anyone willing to mow my lawns for $5/hour at which point I either let them grow, or mow them myself.

They're my lawns - it's my choice.

Which is exactly the union position. They say "Very well. You, the lawn owners have banded together and refuse to pay more than $5 per hour. We , the lawn mower pushers, could simply give up and go and find other work. But why should we give up the careers we have worked and trained for, just because you want to make more profit. No, we have taken a leaf out of your book. We TOO have banded together. And none of us will work for less tha $20. You will find that you need us as much as we need you.What is sauce for the corporate goose is sauce for the worker gander."

I could go on at great length about the philosophical debate about priviledged elites (corporations, not you) de facto appropriating resources that are in reality the property of the whole of society. But that is a whole other argument.

Turn the example on it's head, what if every restaurant in town started charging a minimum $80/plate? Think they'd be in business long? I don;t owe them the money for the right to dine at their establishment - I have the right to refuise their services and do whatever the hell I want.

Society at large owes me nothing... nothing... it's up to me to find something valuable to contribute.

Restaurants are not a good example , though. They are like my garages. When did you last hear of a waiters' strike. Entry level to the industry is low, workers can readily change jobs.

By the same logic - why should it be assumed that society owes large corporations anything?

I disagree. The small shop has plenty to offer and commands loyalty from some locals, as well as having the ability to manoeuvre (I hate speling that word) around the giants. The simple thing is to give the shoppers what they want.

That is all very well, but I have experience in such trade. I can assure you that if you are running a small shop, and one of the giants decides they want you out of business , for whatever reason, they will simply "run you out of town". You will find that your suppliers will no longer be "able" to supply. The goods you sell, you will find the local Giant Store is running on super duper special (it costs Giant Corp nothing, since they simply demand an equivalent rebate from the supplier). You will be driven out of business very fast

If people want cheap goods, let them go to the WalMarts etc, I wouldn't dream of competing with them - why take them head on - that's dumb. Find a niche and stick to it. Look in overseas magazines (free from the library for those of you with no money) and see what you think would sell in NZ.

Your niche market business however, relies on staying small enough to keep under the radar of the corporates. If it becoimes profitable enough to attract them, or dent their sales, you will be run off the ranch (see above). And there are , by definition, only a limited number of niches.

No - the directors will work harder to maximise the returns to those that have invested in the company and require a return - or those investors move their money, the corporate bastards go out of business, and they have to sack everyone who will call them... corporate bastards.

That one is too lengthy to reply to here. Suffice it to say that Keynes disproved the theory in the 1930s

There is always opportunity. People are inherantly lazy. Do something for them, they'll pay you for it. Maybe not as much as you want - in which case do something else.

Not if the economy has been so reduced to a subsitence level that even the lazy cannot afford to pay you (or anyone else). That is what happened the last time capitalism had a free hand . The Great Depression. Nobody could sell anything because noone had any money because noone had a job because noone was selling anything no noone needed anything made because noone had any money - rinse lather repeat. See Keynes, above

The market economy , by definition, requires the existence of a free market. But the entire nature of the global corporate is to stifle market forces. It depends not on a market economy , but on a monopoly.

[ManDownUnder]

Which is exactly the union position. They say "Very well. You, the lawn owners have banded together and refuse to pay more than $5 per hour. We , the lawn mower pushers, could simply give up and go and find other work. But why should we give up the careers we have worked and trained for, just because you want to make more profit. No, we have taken a leaf out of your book. We TOO have banded together. And none of us will work for less tha $20. You will find that you need us as much as we need you.What is sauce for the corporate goose is sauce for the worker gander."

I could go on at great length about the philosophical debate about priviledged elites (corporations, not you) de facto appropriating resources that are in reality the property of the whole of society. But that is a whole other argument.



Restaurants are not a good example , though. They are like my garages. When did you last hear of a waiters' strike. Entry level to the industry is low, workers can readily change jobs.

By the same logic - why should it be assumed that society owes large corporations anything?



That is all very well, but I have experience in such trade. I can assure you that if you are running a small shop, and one of the giants decides they want you out of business , for whatever reason, they will simply "run you out of town". You will find that your suppliers will no longer be "able" to supply. The goods you sell, you will find the local Giant Store is running on super duper special (it costs Giant Corp nothing, since they simply demand an equivalent rebate from the supplier). You will be driven out of business very fast



Your niche market business however, relies on staying small enough to keep under the radar of the corporates. If it becoimes profitable enough to attract them, or dent their sales, you will be run off the ranch (see above). And there are , by definition, only a limited number of niches.



That one is too lengthy to reply to here. Suffice it to say that Keynes disproved the theory in the 1930s



Not if the economy has been so reduced to a subsitence level that even the lazy cannot afford to pay you (or anyone else). That is what happened the last time capitalism had a free hand . The Great Depression. Nobody could sell anything because noone had any money because noone had a job because noone was selling anything no noone needed anything made because noone had any money - rinse lather repeat. See Keynes, above

The market economy , by definition, requires the existence of a free market. But the entire nature of the global corporate is to stifle market forces. It depends not on a market economy , but on a monopoly.

you and I need to discuss this over a beer... I can see many glazed over looks happening in our vicinity but it will be a fun conversation for me.

Spankme probably has to pay for server space and we're really not helping his cause...

[mstriumph]

You said quote: "Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb."

That translates to people with no money commit crime. Crap. As I said, poverty is lifestyle choice in NZ. Major crime in NZ doesn't include people stealing food to feed their families....................

my one overwhelming wonder, when walking around the palace of versailles, was not that the french revolted but why it took them so long
..............

it outraged MY sense of justice that so much conspicuous, profligate consumption should be flaunted in the faces of the relative poverty which existed in pre-revolutionary france .....

personally, i am respectful of the rights and property of others but, had i lived then, my outrage may well have translated into direct remedial action.

from your own version of "Let them eat cake" in this thread, Finn, i suspect that there'll be a starring role reserved for you and other like-minded, uncharitable, self-absorbed individuals, comes the revolution....

and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

[Paul in NZ]

and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

Who does???

[Finn]

from your own version of "Let them eat cake" in this thread, Finn, i suspect that there'll be a starring role reserved for you and other like-minded, uncharitable, self-absorbed individuals, comes the revolution....

and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

Sounds perfect for me. When do I start and what's the pay like? I'll sort this friggen country out yet. Bunch of bloody slackers.

[The_Dover]

Did somebody mention cake?

[The Pastor]

The problem with this is that the minimum wage is a very artificial construct, and does not really work.

In a market economy (I don't approve of it, but it's what we are stuck with. For the moment. ), the "minimum" wage should be set by demand for labour. There would still need to be a government set minimum , to cover special cases like workers in training, sheltered workshops etc. But the *effective* minimum, the figure that an employer could offer and have any hope of getting staff is set by supply and demand.

If a government mandated minimum is greater than this market figure, eventually the system flies apart.And , one way or another, the real minimum comes in much closer to the market figure than to the government one.

And, in NZ, the market minimum is much less that the government mandate .

And yet, even the government minimum is nowhere near sufficient for a worker to provide for a family on.

Why ?

A number of reasons. All mostly traceable to government interference, and incompetant interference at that.

Firstly, the government buyin to a low wage economy, competing with Fiji, Vietnam, China, Phillipinnes, instead of Europe.

And comcomitant total failure of the education system, which makes not even a pretence of preparing the majority of young people for a productive life.

And gross overtaxation, mainly to fund a rampant social welfare system totally out of control.

To pay for all the benefits, taxes must be high . Obviously, it is workers who must pay the bulk of them. But since wages are low, workers are left with insufficent money after tax ,even with both adults in the family working, to survive on. So, instead of reducing taxes, the government tries to bolster things up with more welfare handouts, to the workers. Thus requiring higher taxes again. So the worker is yet more heavily taxed ,in some cases (and only some) getting back a small portion of the extra tax he has paid.

In most countries (and certainly in NZ when I was young) workers earning minimum wages paid no tax . Here, they pay 20%. And in reality the tax take is far higher than that figure indicates, since NZ , once again , unlike most countries, and the NZ of my youth, provides no personal or spousal allowance to offset the tax demand.


Because , the key is IT IS NOT CORPORATIONS THAT GENERATE EMPLOYMENT in a successful economy. It is the small trader, the self employed tradesman.The entrapreneur

In successful economies, it is easy for a worker to set up in business for himself. At first, there is only him. But, if he works hard, after a bit, he can take someone on (a partner) to help him. Now there are two jobs. And thus it grows.

I like the idea of min wage workers not paying tax. Would that include GST, Petrol tax rates and all the other taxes you get taxed on? One downfall would be people would not want to get off the min wage? Companys wouldnt promote (in terms of money) if they get some sort of tax benifit for employing min wage workers? As an entrapreneur type person, I find what your saying to be pretty spot on. (the reason im in uni now is because its hard to start up a bussiness and want to have a qual I can fall back on when/if I fail) I don't think nz has screwed it up to the point of no return though. Its just more challengeing.

I never said all companies make extreme profits. The big ones too and obviously yours does. You don't pay tax unless your making money so with a million dollars heading the governments way you are making some serious cash.
Ixion brings up another excellent point about small business, or the self employed. Raising the minimum wage is tough for the little guy. You will find that most of the time a guy who is starting out can't afford to pay higher wages (but you also find that these guys have not been in business long enough to become wankers yet and treat their empolyees better) and thats why I am an advocate for having a different min wage for companies over xxx empolyees. The ones that are seriously making money with the idea that the wage bill is just a easy way to price cut. I said it when I started working and I will say it again. You can't save money by cutting wages.

Thats a silly Idea, min wage never works. Ever.

[Scouse]

Let's assume for a moment that 'great' equals making lots of dosh. Now name some NZ people who've done great, starting with nothing. And, just to make it interesting, they still have to reside in NZ.

Graham Heart

[k14]

If that's the case then why are there so many university educated people working in gas stations & at supermarkets? Or worse, fucking off overseas! Why is it that some folk who never even got school C are in high paid managment jobs? It's not what you know, it's whose arse you lick!

Well that would be assuming having a university education means you had to work for it. I bet you anything you wouldn't find an engineering grad working at a petrol station, only graduates of "other" departments (who will go unnamed).

[Lou Girardin]

Graham Heart

That's one. (and it's spelt Hart)
Next?

[terbang]

Graham Heart

I think Peter Jackson also started from a fairly humble background as well.

Jeez Steve have you had a hair cut or something..? You look a bit different on your latest Avatar...