once again ... the Amish are showing how it should be done ...
LOOK.. ZOMBIES!
once again ... the Amish are showing how it should be done ...
Guest
Fuck, don't tell the catholics!Originally Posted by Wolf
Hardcore Biker
You have to admire the amish for their courage and understanding.
I do admire the amish but have to admit I think their way of life is a bit of a farce and unsustainable without modern society which is saddening. They try to maintain a self sustaining community but they are reliant on the modernized society especially for medicial assistance, law enforcement and military protection which they do not/cannot contribute back to society.
Still Ridin'
What aBout all the stuff they sell - not just handcrafts, but hand operated equipment for farm and home? (Survivalists buy a lot of Amish equipment against the time when civilisation collapses and there's no electricity) The Amish produce goods and crops, the surplus of which they sell. They also pay taxes on what they make and they support non-Amish people by buying things they need, such as raw materials. Does that not make them eligible for the benefits that you talk of?
They are not totally in the dark ages and they are not totally secluded. They keep to a simple, uncluttered way of life rather than worshipping possessions and trappings the way most modern people do. If they have a need for something (such as a washing machine) they will have one - it just does not run on electricity. If they don't need it (television, radio, X-Box) they don't have it.
Or does one have to supply soldiers and policemen in order to enjoy the protection of the armed forces and the police? If that were the case, a large portion of the US population would have no right to either. (Our population, too, for that matter.)
For all they are pacifists, they possess courage equal to that of any soldier - the courage to visibly live the way they choose to, despite any ridicule they might be subjected to, despite it being easier to do things the modern way. They do not hide who they are, they do not change their behaviour to suit others - there's courage, steadfastness, integrity and faith there in abundance. The purposely choose to walk the hard road and live a life outside the "norm" - that's bravery and faith. And I don't know what it takes to forgive your child's killer (for I'm sure I'd be running a whetstone down my sword blade if someone killed one of my kids) but it's a quality that not even our resident Marine possesses.
Motorbike Camping for the win!
LOOK.. ZOMBIES!
the poor bastard that harms anyone i give a shit about will die a show painful and horrible death.. im sure Wolf and a few others know what a "Blood Eagle" is ..
i admire the Amish right now .. they have shown pure love and forgiveness in this matter .. even to the point of going to the killer's funeral and consoling his widow ..
Hardcore Biker
I agree with all your points, they do contribute but it would be impossible for everyone to be amish. Murderous thugs will exist until humanity does not, the Amish people refuse to have a system to deal with that therefore they only exist as long as their are non amish people to make their existance possible.
I am studying computer science and in the forseeable future I do not see myself partaking in law enforcement or the defence of our country, but if it became necessary I would do so.
That is why I don't think the amish way of life is feasible and would not accept it myself. Saying that I still have respect for the values they hold and demonstrate in the their most challenging times.
Hardcore Biker
Our culture, doesn't value individual lives of those who are powerless (women, children, and other minority groups... disabled..) The cowboy mentality -who was raised on Bonanza? - has led down a slippery slope toward disaster. Unless we get a handle on how we treat aggression, on a national level and personal level, things will only get worse.
The crazy shooter only did what the US military are asked to do daily after all! Viewing mostly conflict, war and terrorism on TV news for years and endless spin-doctoring, false witnessing, name-calling, accusations, and corruption from our so-called "leaders" of both major political parties must have profound effects on Western peoples.
There is no ethical attitude out there--even from most so-called "religious" leaders, who tend to focus on judgment, condemnation, punishment, and getting rich instead of spreading the message of love, acceptance, and peace. Values went by the wayside when people - a generation, stopped having Sunday services (a long tradition) as reminders of what they are.
The effort to disarm law-abiding people is wrong and frightening imo! I was pro-going defenseles once but after some discussions with people holding different views and a look at the word today a rethink was in order. I was referred to the ATFE, FBI, and other sites, for actual statistics. It turns out that exponentially more women--and others--protect themselves with guns than are injured or killed as the result of their use in the US. Its clear, in the vast majority of cases, just having one is enough to deter the evil-doer (so you don't hear about them, since no one normally gets shot).
News providers and cops purposely don't provide these statistics to viewers because it doesn't serve their purposes! And if a few offenders start beuing target practise then the court cases will become more complex ie costlier! The crazy Amish kid killer was pretty calculated in choosing a school where he knew they wouldn't have an armed guard or telephones to call for help.
An elderly lady I know remembers when school principals were introduced in her area in the early 1930s. In part this was because boys were attacking female teachers. Men were brought in to keep the peace and discipline the students. She said teachers and principals even kept a shotgun handy in case desperate robbers stopped by! That's good advice for the vulnerable imo.
or expect return fire is the attitude we need more of. I suggest that in todays world every decent person, with a family to protect should get down the shooting range and hone up their skills.
needs to work harder
Participants are gently reminded of Godwin's law. That is all, thank you.
Dave
Hardcore Biker
seriously man, there was not an iota of evidence given in your post with any substance.
show me statistics with the outcomes when someone finds someone in there home and they a) own a gun b) don't own a gun.
If the gun is situated so that it is readily available in such a situation its not going to be hard for a child to try have a play with it. If a criminal hears you opening a safe or unlocking something they will make sure they shoot you first.
Firearms in the hands of a trained professional are not really a problem but the Amish would never want that in their schools.
End of the day this was just one really screwed up guy and its impossible to be totally safe, theres nothing you can really do except try get on with life and accept that worst case scenarios can happen but usually don't.
Hardcore Biker
There are arguments for and against. My nextdoor neighbour died in a shooting accident at home at age 14. He'd got drunk and must have thought it wasn't loaded... So my Mum spent the next 3 odd years helping out nextdoor.
By the same token I do not believe we should be too relaxed as there's only a small chance of violent crime - not in NZ anyway. Quite high actually from my observations. 3 of my schoolfriends were raped by strangers or acquaintances between ages of 13 and 25! Probably looks different if you are female. And I do know both murderers and their victims. Which is why I think (particularly those at a disadvantage eg invalids or women) being armed to "equalise" is not a silly idea given the state of society today.
Evidence to support my opinion that responsible people perhaps should have right to carry for self defense (more important than hunting surely)....
Gary Kleck (born March 2, 1951) is a criminologist at Florida State University who is a leading expert on the links between guns, violence and gun control laws in the United States. Kleck did statistical analysis of crime in the United States and argues that while in 1993 there were about four hundred thousand crimes committed with guns, there were approximately 2.5 million crimes in which victims used guns for self-protection.
In 1993, Kleck won the Michael J. Hindelang Award from the American Society of Criminology for his book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America.
After Canada passed a gun control law in 1977, the murder rate failed to decline but armed robbery and burglary, crimes frequently deterred by gun ownership, increased. Violent crime accelerated in Taiwan and Jamaica after handguns were banned.
US Police refuse to attend call outs to licensed as armed houses. I think that is fair enough - if you have chosen to defend yourself don't call them. Domestics and bad storage are where problems lie. Nothing is without issues.
http://keepandbeararms.org/
At above link you will find heaps of self defense success stories, headlines like "son shoots man holding gun to his mothers head" and "New York woman in wheelchair shoots her attacker". A complicated issue to say the least.
Still Ridin'
Isnt it great that humanity has enough diversity that the likes of the Amish can and do exist?
True, the Amish rely on non-Amish mechanisms to survive - that may well be one of the reasons why they are so undemanding of outsiders (convert the outsiders and who will buy your goods, run the banks etc? - too much to hope the govt will convert to Amish beliefs and stop gathering taxes.)
The Amish survive as they do, not only because there is a non-Amish community to interact with (selling surplus crops etc to "render unto Caesar"), but because there is a large Amish community to do the work, help out in times of hardship and sickness and band together at times of harvest and planting etc.
Personally, I could not live the Amish way either. I would want my motorbike and my computer and my extensive library of books that does not just include holy books and the convenience of turning a tap and getting hot water - the list goes on...
And I would not have the support of others to help me work the land during busy times or if I fall ill or have an accident. Then there's the fact that your steading or community has to produce enough food for your own needs and a high quality surplus that is saleable in the outside commercial world.
It's like "self sufficiency" - it is impossible in the here and now as the law requires you pay rates which means you need to earn money somehow and therefore you must pay income tax. Even if you had a few million in the bank and relied on the interest you earn to cover taxes, your "self sufficiency" relies on the banking system (and you'd probably find yourself "working" to ensure your money stays ahead of inflated CoL and devaluation).
Lacking a few million in negotiable currency you have to work hard to ensure your crops are of commercial quality or you will not be able to sell the surplus.
I've often thought of a quasi-"Amish" lifestyle - have the semi-self-sufficiency with the technological advantages.
A friend of mine almost has that - his meat and a lot of his fruit and veges come from his land, he still works at paid employment to pay for his rates and things he cannot produce (electricity, coffee, cigarettes, tech stuff, internet connection etc) but what he saves growing/producing a lot of his food plus the money he makes not cutting his back paddocks (the neighbour buys the hay off him less cutting/baling costs) means that his money goes a hell of a lot further than if he were completely immersed in the consumer-state.
Conversely, because he's not completely self-sufficient, he has the time to go and work at paid employment rather than being so tied into running the steading that he has no time for leisure, let alone work. Feeding his three cattle for the whole year involves occasionally chasing them from one paddock to another and shutting the gate behind them. Cutting and baling the hay involves letting in the cutting/baling team once a year and paying them. The neighbour comes and takes away the hay and gives him money. Someone else slaughters and butchers his cattle and packages the beast he keeps for himself (sometimes the flesh undergoes transformation and turns into an equal mass of mutton, lamb or pork) and the sale of the meat from the other carcases pays for the slaughtering and butchering and buys three new weaners with some change left over.
His fruit and veges are for personal use so he does not have to work his arse off to make a surplus of sufficient quality to sell (your own apples can be sun-struck to hell and back, the ones you sell must be perfect and that involves a lot of work during the growing).
Things that are too labour-intensive to produce, he buys. If he gets sick, his wife can take over his "farm duties" if it happens to be at a time when the cattle need moving. He can take holidays out of town knowing the cattle and crops will look after themselves while he's gone.
Another friend of mine tried full on "self sufficiency" and the amount of time he spent working his land (to produce not only enough food for himself and his partner but enough surplus to sell to pay rates etc and buy things that he just could not produce) pretty much guaranteed he had no leisure and he gave it up after a few years.
Done right, you could make a "more efficient" lifestyle where you balance paid employment and working the land to get better use of your wages and make more free time, but the Amish lifestyle is too labour-intensive - especially for a single family.
Motorbike Camping for the win!
Cyborg Biker
You may leave the service, but he service will never leave you...
Im only realising this now... after leaving the Royal NZ Navyin 91...
the middle path
Yes it is. And they are not the only ones remember- there are many similar groups around the world living on farms or Monastries or Ashrams in India - living a simple life based on their religious belief. There is a Hari Krishna farm north of Auck. and a Bhuddist retreat in the Nelson area, to mention a couple.
If you cant learn to forgive, your issues will eat away at you until you are affected. The Amish know this, it is a cornerstone of most religions.
"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" (Ghandi)
The 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' of the Bible needs to be taken in context with 'vengance is mine saith the Lord" and is not about humans having revenge on humans,(Judge not, lest ye be judged) but God judging human actions when they turn up at the Pearly Gates. This is seen in the Hindu and Bhuddist scriptures also, as the Law of Karma (the principle of cause and effect) whatever you do will at some point come back to you. Every bad deed will have to be paid for. (If not in this incarnation, then the next)
How about the Lords Prayer - "forgive us our trespasses (sins) as we forgive them that trespass(sin) against us"
Totally understandable but....
"anger, lust, and greed are the 3 gates to Hell" -The Bhagavad Gita(Hindu scriptures)
LOL - thanks Dave (I had to Google it)
Experience......something you get just after you needed it
the middle path
Mate, I thought you were going somewhere good with this until I read the next bit. How about unplugging yourself from the NRA propaganda machine and seeing what can be learnt from the original subjects of this thread - the Amish
Experience......something you get just after you needed it
Forum whore
When I was young this was so common as almost to be a norm. The degree varied, but the idea was regarded as almost axiomatic. If you didn't do it to some extent you were regarded as odd or lazy....
A friend of mine almost has that - his meat and a lot of his fruit and veges come from his land, he still works at paid employment to pay for his rates and things he cannot produce (electricity, coffee, cigarettes, tech stuff, internet connection etc) but what he saves growing/producing a lot of his food plus the money he makes not cutting his back paddocks (the neighbour buys the hay off him less cutting/baling costs) means that his money goes a hell of a lot further than if he were completely immersed in the consumer-state.
...
You left out the chooks. Chooks are very important, they are easy protein and eggs are readily sellable or exchangeable. And they need very little room and can pick up a living foraging in the field stubble . May need a bit of help in the winter.
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