Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

**Crasherfromwayback** · 12th January 2007, 11:12

Originally Posted by Goblin

It's not easy trying to break into a male dominated sport and the only way to learn racecraft is to get out there and do it. All you "opinionated" guys on here have given me some valuable insight into racing here and I have filed some points for future reference. Thanks guys!

Just don't ever let me catch you 'brake checking' anyone like our mate thinks is all cool!

Else I'll spank ya bum myself!

**Brian d marge** · 13th January 2007, 00:18

Just watching portugal motogp

Toni Elias on roberts last lap. In sideways forces roberts to slow , letting rossi through as well , rossi on the other hand doing everything to protect that line ,,, different brakeing points , moving across lines Even foot out ...

I think there is a difference between tapping the brake when a riders up your arse and missleading them as towards your braking points.

Personally ( imho) thats my look out , you is the fella in front , my job is to go past, thats my problem not yours ...( least that the way I look at it )

Stephen

**Crasherfromwayback** · 13th January 2007, 07:40

Originally Posted by Brian d'marge

Just watching portugal motogp

Toni Elias on roberts last lap. In sideways forces roberts to slow , letting rossi through as well , rossi on the other hand doing everything to protect that line ,,, different brakeing points , moving across lines Even foot out ...

I think there is a difference between tapping the brake when a riders up your arse and missleading them as towards your braking points.

Personally ( imho) thats my look out , you is the fella in front , my job is to go past, thats my problem not yours ...( least that the way I look at it )

Stephen

And what a fantastic race it was!!

But no one at anytime in that race 'slowed up' mid corner...and you'll not see it in many good races. There's been the odd race where one of the top guys has claimed that the guy they're racing with has done so....but you can see how badly it's looked upon by the quick denials from the accused.

**TonyB** · 13th January 2007, 17:34

Holy shit. Went away for a week and have come back to a bloody monster thread... I'm only on about page 16. This quote right here

Originally Posted by DEATH_INC.

I think you guys need to be careful not to alienate the 'tards from roadraces, just remember their entry fees etc help pay the bills too.....racing in NZ isn't big enough to sustain segregation like overseas.

and one other that I can't find again now... something along the lines of

"some of the slower Motard riders are taking bad lines that causes them to get in the way. Maybe some education is needed"

pretty much sum it up.

Maybe its not the fast Motard riders that are the problem. Maybe its only the ones that take terrible lines, stick their foot out, and don't understand how to shift their weight around to increase corner speed that are the problem. A fast rider is going to be doing most things right, a slow rider is more likely to be doing things wrong... or they could just be slow. Maybe where there is a dedicated Motard class, the ones with lap times that would be considered reasonable for F2 should be invited into F2, and the ones with reasonable F3 lap times should be invited into F3. Same for BEARS. IF a motard rider in F2, F3 or BEARS was unable to keep their feet on the pegs and/or was obviously tripping up other competitors in F2/F3 or BEARS, they could be un-invited. So if you're quick and you can adapt to a more 'classic' road racing style and lines, then you get to race in more than one class. If your not fast, and/or you can't adapt, you stay in Motards. That seems fair... though no doubt someone will point out a very logical reason why its not...

If there's no dedicated Motard class, then they pick one or two classes and race in that, with the "no feet out" rule actually enforced- ie words spoken then the black flag shown.

**gav** · 13th January 2007, 17:41

If they are "dangerous" or too slow or a hazard, they should be black flagged and taken off the track. Then taken aside and told what they are doing that is wrong or unacceptable, actually this is the current situation for any class of racing. If he can't improve his riding, he won't be able to get back on track, suggestions of a track day or some tuition will be suggested.

**TonyB** · 13th January 2007, 18:18

Originally Posted by NordieBoy

Races a big bore Harley and a DR400.

Tell me he didn't put forward controls on it....

**TonyB** · 13th January 2007, 18:54

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

hey naieve one

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

like i said, you have no clue re what goes on in racing.
the ultimate goal in a race is to win
cool is not relevant and the tactics i've described can be seen as you watch world championships or as you watch NZ championships.

it aint fucking tiddly winks mate and yes, i've employed them on occasion as have many kiwi racers past and present

as for your childish 'warning', go tell it to someone who gives a rats arse

Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback

You are absolutely 100% full of shit....as unlike you, I've won national championships......I've yet to see your list of 'acheivements'....and the 'names' you've beaten doing so..... tosser.

Originally Posted by scracha

So will you two be having angry sex at the next race or what?

Angry sex? Geeze, hope not! Good hard racing?

I'd pay to see that. Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.

Originally Posted by gav

If they are "dangerous" or too slow or a hazard, they should be black flagged and taken off the track. Then taken aside and told what they are doing that is wrong or unacceptable, actually this is the current situation for any class of racing. If he can't improve his riding, he won't be able to get back on track, suggestions of a track day or some tuition will be suggested.

Realistically, thats all that can be done. Hell, I have yet to meet a road racer at any level who wont give good advice if asked. Like I said above, if we have a sort of invitation scheme where fast and or well behaved Motards are invited into F2 & F3 along with a dedicated motard class, then everyone is getting a fair go.

Someone made a point about the super250 etc- the same thing happened when 500's tried to race with the original MotoGP bikes, the 500's could do a good qualifying time, but in a race the superior punch off the line and out of a corner kept the MotoGP bikes ahead. If the Motards invited into the formula classes can do a good lap time and keep their feet in the right place and their tactics clean, then surely we wouldn't have a problem? Or would the top formula racers still have a problem?

**Crasherfromwayback** · 13th January 2007, 20:00

Originally Posted by TonyB

Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.

When it comes to racing....respect is earnt. Not through dreaming about doing it and slagging off people that have done it.

**idleidolidyll** · 14th January 2007, 07:26

Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback

When it comes to racing....respect is earnt. Not through dreaming about doing it and slagging off people that have done it.

so then stop slagging off someone who HAS done it

lets see; when i suggested that taking the 'perfect line' through corners is often not realistic in a race and that the ultimate goal was to cross the line first not to take pretty lines, you came back with some nonsense about playing like a gentleman.

again, it aint tiddly winks, it's racing and your philately collection is as relevant as is your national chess club title. every tactic short of the black flag is valid if you want to pass the bike in front and, particulalry on the last corner, if you can fuck up the other guys drive as you do it, more power to you, that's racing.

in fact if you DON'T have that killer instict and will to win by using all the opportunities presented, you're unlikely to amount to much at all

**idleidolidyll** · 14th January 2007, 07:45

So, back to the original subject: banning motards from the Formula races.

Here's a list of the reasons why some here think they should be banned:

1. They take different lines

2. They slide into the corners

3. They stick their foot out

4. They have taken over the class, there's 3 or 4 times as many of 'them' as there are of 'us'.

5. They're motocross bikes so why should they be allowed to race in road races?

6. They're 'dangerous'. (This one's silly unless the reason they're 'dangerous' is offered and usually it falls under one of the above excuses.

7. This is OUR class not theirs.

8. They get to ride 4 or 5 races every meeting but we only get 1 or 2 (The "I'm jealous" excuse)

Have I missed any? If the argument is to be taken seriously, the reasons for banning them must be offered in a clear, succint manner with supporting evidence or explanation.

If I have missedf any, please post them so I can analyse and comment.

So far then my answers to the above are:

1. So what? Taking different lines is what racing is all about. Already in F3 for instance, 125's take different lines to 400's.

2. So does Rossi and co. If sliding in squares the bike off and allows it to get on the power quicker, that might be the 'best' line for a particular corner. Some have whined about the sliding. The best way to show that sliding is slow is to pass them. If ya can't, then sliding is possibly BETTER.

3. If that is unsafe for others, fair enough but that's no reason to ban the bike, it's more a reason to ban sticking a foot out.

4. So what? Just because a bike is a popular choice does not make a good reason to ban it. If that was the case Yamaha R1's would be banned from F1 for example.

5. This one is nonsense. With 17" wheels and slick tyres, these lightweight torquey bikes are fun to race on the road and many are bought as road bikes with lights, indicators and ONLY 17" wheels with road tyres and suspension tuned for the road.

6. If they're dangerous (the bike, not the rider) then offer why they're dangerous. It's a no brainer to make a blanket statement without an argument to back it up.

7. No, the class belongs to ANYONE whose bike meets the specification. If we were to get down to brass tacks on that complaint then 125's would be kicked out too.

8. Jealousy is not a valid reason to exclude a type of bike from a class. The riders of those bikes made a smart choice that gave them the opportunity to ride in several classes.

**TonyB** · 14th January 2007, 08:07

Originally Posted by TonyB

Angry sex? Geeze, hope not! Good hard racing?

I'd pay to see that. Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.

Originally Posted by scracha

I wasn't attacking anyone not getting personal. In fact I was doing quite the opposite. If you'd actually read my post before lecturing me about "respect" you'd see I was basically pointing out to the two lads concerned that it was starting to get a bit heated and personal (thus the "take a big breath" statement).

Angry sex....boxing gloves. Obviously they were statements to be taken seriously and meant to offend people. I will of course be rushing out to buy two pairs of boxing gloves before the next race. You can see I've upset the two guys concerned by their replies.

Scracha, you misread my post. It wasn't directed at you.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 08:55

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

what part of "I retired in the 90's" did you not understand?

once more; just because you're out there today racing, does not make your observation any more valid than that of the many many racers of the recent and distant past.

i've noted many times here that the whiners would attack the likes of Crosby, Slight, Holden, Toomey and other great racers if they arrived and started posting anonymously: you would probably be one of the first to mongrel them.

Now be a good lad and try to address my next post, the one about the reasons offered to ban motards from the formula races. Let's see some intelligent well reasoned answers, not testicle comparisons and chest measurements

Well here's a good point for ya then mate.....I've raced against Slight, Holden and Toomey....and none of them would think it's a good idea or safe to slow mid corner!

I've only got a small chest, as I'm only a small guy....but my nuts are as big as my mouth!

**Joni** · 14th January 2007, 10:20

OK guys. A few complaints have come through regarding this thread. Anymore crap and the thread will be locked.

Play nice... or take it off KB.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 10:21

Doh....sorry about that.....I'll leave it!

**Joni** · 14th January 2007, 10:36

Its not just you Crasher... Idle and Dangerous have generated complaints too. I have let things go, as I think this thread has some really usefull stuff.... but a pissing contest is not required on KB.

So everyone, keep it clean please.