*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[outlawtorn]

dude, run for parliament, you'd get my vote!

[Hillbilly]

let's all sing along now....

I don’t give a hangi for the Treaty of Waitangi,
You can’t get fat on that - give me some Puha and Pākehā.

You take a little umu and you get it very hot,
You catch a little Pākehā and put him in a pot,
Cook him all up in your old home brew,
And what have you got? Kiwi Stew.

They call it....Puha and Pakeha, Puha and Pakeha,
The finest food you could ever wish for.....

[candor]

I've got a heap of "maori" whanau. Most are adamant they are Maori before they are "New Zealanders". Prolly cos their ancestors refused to go to war for NZ due to treaty breaches, and general long standing poor treatment.

Funnily most of my Maori whanau do not regard pakeha like me or our culture or the technology we bought as gods gift exactly. Resentments are very very deep and very very real and very very justified. Anyone who takes the time to undo pakeha conditioning and learn the real history of this country fast works that one out.

In Scotland round the back of Loch Ness (I think it was Ness) is a museum that takes you thru a timeline of the land from pists, celts etc to modern day. The history is told in an audiovisual way as you wear earphones. It is the uncut story of colonisation - we could do with such a real gritty exhibit here, never mind old sterile Te Papa

I think there is just a heap of misunderstanding regarding what is meant by 'sovereignty' - tho every Maori has their own take on that. Generally I hear it as being an impassioned declaration of 'let me live my way' and if yours differs don't think the automatic 'correct behavior/view' to prevail should be yours, Mr pakeha.

Many Police still stick by the tradition of not making arrests on Pa in recognition that the arm of Crown law does not technically extend on to Maori land I'm told.

I'm proud my Scots rellys kept a degree of sovereignty with a seperate parliament. The Maori have taken much nonsense in good humour compared to the Irish truth be told, so why do we get so shitty over their request to simply wave about a flag - one which declares their existence???

Its got me buggered. If people think its divisive then why don't we sow it to a Union Jack or whatever flag we currently use then string the bicultural version up. Or put them side by side like girl guides and cub scouts.

This country really needs to grow up. The Maori do not see their desire for sovereignty in the way the basques or Fijiians do from what I can gather. A ph call to Tame Iti could clear any confusion up. Maybe. I note he said "Maori Nation" whereas Turia said "Maori Nations". A gender difference in outlook?

A little piece of little known history. Back in the 80's Durie did a deal. He said that if the Waitangi commission could get powers to deal with land claims, and if restorative justice could be used more (roper report) then the Maori elite lawyer crew would cede any future claim to assert legal sovereignty over their own people. Which till that point there had been legal grounds to appeal!!! Its all recorded in 1980s waitangi commission papers. Hmmm. So thats why justice goes light in this country - even pakeha crims benefited from the lotsa second chances new look.

[Colapop]

'Most' Maori do not have the right to call themselves Maori. They have no more Maori blood in them than I do in me. I am of European decent but I am a New Zealander. I do not claim to have the rights of the EU because my ancestors came from there. What we are talking about here is devisive separatist behaviour - pretty much regardles of race. But it's 'just a flag', a flag that divides people into two groups - those for us or against us. As far as the Union Jack goes, I favour a new New Zealand flag, but it is only part of our flag - our history.

Tell me what sovereignty you are talking about - I'd like your explaination of what it means, not what you've been 'lead to believe' (can't have you being fed a line now can we?)

The dictionary, in fact quite a few of them, describes sovereignty as;
"Supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community."

So you're saying that the those who claim to be Maori do not want to divide the people of this country and rule their own? You say you are Maori but have Scottish ancestry. And before you complain and profess that you have said you are a "Pakeha" (The literal translation is White flea or parasite) you also say that your 'whanau' or family are Maori. Which is it? Do you choose sides depending on the way the wind is blowing? It certainly seems to be the manner of those that "protest in the name of Maoridom". Not at a personal attack but how diluted does a person's heritage have to be before they are considered not to be Maori?

I have a major problem with the likes of Ken Mair who is more 'Pakeha' than me, Tama Iti and all the other shit stirrers who make their living by being professional protesters - they're as bad as John F*cking Minto. I have more 'mana' in my little finger than those c*nts have in their entire being. The police, as I understand it, do arrest those individuals that break the law. They may not do it immediately, such as during a protest where they are greatly outnumbered (wouldn't that be foolish) but they do arrest those people who are willing to break the laws of this land. Whether you agree with then or not. There is a prcess for changing these laws - it's called an election.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Maori culture, language, arts and history. I fully support celebrating it, in fact. But why do we need the Maori All Blacks or the Maori electoral roll? Why don't we fully integrate the cultures of this land and have the Chinese All Blacks, the Dutch electoral roll, and put up place names in Somali, Hindi, Spanish....

You are right, this country does need to grow up. To do that we need to come together as one united group of people striving to do the best we can so that all of us can prosper.

[McJim]

I thought most Maori were descended predominantly from Scotsmen if you check their whakapapa. Can we change it to Scotland day then?

[KLOWN]

i'm with cola on this one. (may his bike come back to one piece)

[R6_kid:Me]

i challenge any maori to go back and live on there pa, with their marae, livestock, and vegetable patches, with taiahas and patu's, with no electricity, television, written language, or constitution, only what nature gave them in some reserve where no one can help them except themselves and their beliefs...

If they can forge their way back to the same level (or better) as modern New Zealand civilisation by themselves, then we can talk about giving them something.

If they really think they are so hard done by due to the pressures that modern society puts on them, then they should just go back to how they used to be and see if they like it. Otherwise get a job and stop living off my taxes simply because the society of my ancestors was more powerful than yours... i know i wouldnt be having a cry, i'd be getting off my ass and proving i am worthy of my place in this society.

[riffer]

I thought most Maori were descended predominantly from Scotsmen if you check their whakapapa. Can we change it to Scotland day then?

Hmmm. Yes. Well I appear to be perpetuating the trend then...

[Qkkid]

Well said COLAPOP

[Ixion]

I am technically part Maori. More so than a lot of the protesters. As well as part Scotch, part English, part Spanish. All of those disparate heritages mean something to me. And also mean nothing. What matters is the whole. I cannot pick out one bit of "me" to the exclusion of the rest.

90% and more of the Maoris in the country, you would never realise they are Maori, and they don't think anything of it themselves. Not ashamed of it, just not a big deal. They're just Kiwis, same as everyone else (except the protesters). Sometime in the past a Maori ancestor took a look at what was going on and reckoned that "civilisation" was a GoodThing. Put on a tie and got a job in town. Bought a house, got a mortgage. As my great grandfather did. And so the descendants of those sensible folk are today not "Maori" - and not "non Maori" .

If I have some 91 octane fuel in my tank and I fill it with 95 octane , is it 91? 95? Who knows. Who cares.

The "professional Maoris" are simply those who can't make the cut. Unable to establish an identity for themselves they fall back on a mythical past and a pseudo-identity. The vast majority of Maoris don't need to. They are relaxed and confident in their own identities - as fathers, daughters, wives, partners, truckies, doctors, bikers, golfers, Labour voters, National voters, students, pensioners. Whatever .

The "professional Maoris" have no right to claim to speak for Maori in general. They don't speak for me, the very fact that they claim some sort of independance, in itself proves that they cannot speak for that 90%.

[RT527]

Wot Maori There Aint none left is there?

[candor]

Maybe some do want to divide - that is not good. But others are more moderate yet still support "sovereignty". Their definition is not the dictionary definition. It is the modern definition as it has been evolved to by the U.N, human rights groups, academics and some activists - to be used in the context of 'indigenous rights' debate.

Their definition is based on a pakeha principle - the value of autonomy ='s self determination = right to be masters of ones own/families/wider groups destiny. That is the most common understanding of 'sovereignty' among the Maori I know.

I have seen grown tough gang members cry talking about how precious this is to them. As they do feel they have had as a people and as individuals their essence dominated and squelched out of them. Their right to just be themselves (culturally speaking).

Ones culture is ones humanity. Without culture (sense of identity and of a world that is 'fitting' with your inner experience and conditioned in values) you are feral and a writhing nothing. I began to feel that way living at the pa. It is a cumulative effect when you must struggle to be understood and "seen". When all your values and opinions etc are daily judged as wacky or out there even tho they are just typical ones for your race.

A build up of this difficulty getting validated or seen as relevant can drive you mad.

To my view they are expressing a wish not to be dominated into wearing clothes / attitudes/ values etc that don't fit. Maori eyes do see different than ours - from a different angle on any given situation - I assure you the majority who know their culture are not just models of us except in brown skins. A different species altogether.

My personal definition of sovereignty would be having all the freedom you can to be yourself most fully without causing serious discomfort to others - as an individual and a society. I don't believe countries truly have sovereignty anymore as per dictionary definition.

There are no borders really - much of the big stuff is not dictated by elected govts anymore, they are just mediators and implementers of more powerful international forces. So in that sense I do not believe Maori or "colonists" can really lay any claim to National sovereignty and if a flag is used to represent such a claim thats just deluding ourselves.

No - I'm not Maori, 1800 settler stock thru and thru. But I am a fly on the wall to many Maori "doings" as my late partner was Maori, plus was half raised by an Aunt who married a Maori. As I was living on a very steeped pa once, I learnt basic maori as I wanted to understand what people were on about - hence the nickname they gave the only pakeha at the pa - "nosey pa-keha"
a great joke for kids as it played on "nosey parker." http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0702/S00009.htm

PS _ I wish to be more like Tame iti cos he is not afraid to make a stand regardless of support level or making a fool of himself, to me he is entertaining and I like it. Apparently he is not "just a protestor" but has mana for doing much good in his community. Ken Mair I'm not so keen on as he just seems bitter and Titewhai can go to hell - she (allegedly)bashed someone I know who was a hospital patient.

[Ixion]

However "sovereignty" be defined (and I am vastly suspicious of those who would play with words), it must needs encompass responsibilities and duties , as well as rights and privileges.

I only ever hear the "professional Maoris" claim the rights and goodies, I never hear of any of them (nowadays, twas different in the past) stepping forward to take up the burdens of responsibility and duty. When I do, then they will gain the right to be listened to.

Go and visit the Goldie paintings of ancient chiefs in the art gallery. Listen to them . Go to Rotorua, to St Faith's church. Listen to the chief whose tomb is outside . Go to any of the volcanos in Auckland, in the quiet of the night. And listen. If you understand what being Maori is you will understand what I mean. And doing so, will see for yourself how far the "professional Maori" fall short of the forebears they prattle about.

[candor]

A strict reading of the treaty signed by N Islanders (diff from that signed by S Islanders who often say they did cede) says from memory;

- full sovereignty remains with the chiefs in all their (retained) lands, forests etc and over whatever is precious to them

A false history has evolved around the translation.

A 16 year old missionaries son who spoke Maori actually did the translation (not the missionary as claimed), and it is questionable whether he may have been a British traitor (loyal to Maori or was told to mistranslate by maori loyal Daddy) or a genuine Maori deceiver.

The UN and international principles of justice require indigenous versions to be upheld if the 2 differ - therein lies the basis of all the commotion.

[Colapop]

I am not a Maori, nor do I pretend to be. I was brought up in a place where Maoridom has more say in most cases than 'Pakeha' sovereignty. I suppose you could say that I have a certain understanding of Maori ways, customs, culture and beliefs - but I am not Maori so I cannot know what it is to be Maori. This is not a debate about Maori's this is about deliberately creating conflict to divide opinion for a psuedo-ideal. The risk of a debate like this is that it does become racial.

one rule - one people