*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[mstriumph]

Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. .................................. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

...........................................
The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.

This is a great thread

Reading it, it occurs to me that, in many of the posts, you could just substitute the word 'Aborigine' for 'Maori' and you would have a fair representation of the situation here in Aus.

The factions are similar, too - the 'industry adherants', whingers, stirrers, apologists and placators on one side ----- small in numbers, comparitively speaking, but big on noise ....... and the sane, sensible, but unfortunately mostly silent, majority [of ALL racial heritages] on the other .....

Good to see that, in this thread at least, that majority is airing its views and stating its position.

To add my voice to the mix, i believe the yardstick for an action on this scale should be "is it potentially divisive?" - and, if it is, perhaps it would best to reconsider.

[candor]

All you say is true Ixion. Good post. I know a girl (now 20ish) of East Tamaki.
When she was 9 I went to stay in her criminal alcoholic household with perhaps 1 good parental role model. Dad was an absent druggy and step dad a pisshead - all night parties half the week. Hard enough to sleep in that house and the noise would make homework tricky for a kid.

At school she complained it was hard to learn as kids threw desks at teachers a lot and many scraps etc. She used to get asked to join gangs ie wear colours etc as she walked home always in carefully selected non colours.

She would say with a cheesy grin "Thankyou! But I'm afraid that will never be possible for me as I want to be a scholar, and I will never be able to get distracted from that". Her 2 brothers are in jail and her sister is a solo-mum to 3 with different fathers.

I did not think this girl ever had a chance and wondered for years - gettingg reports back thru grapevine every few. She has just completed a double degree in languages and I think political science. And is a top multicultural performer - she loves all island dancing coming from S akld.

She is plotting a diplomatic career as she has a passion for communicatrion and learning about other cultures. She is one of four kids and prolly the only one in a couple of mile radius of kids that grew up there to make it.

I saw another one like her in Huntly. A girl from the bronx going places. But it took something exceptional from within these people. Most people are very shaped by their environment - be it a successful family background or not.

I still say a long history of discrimination has impacted the average Maori who chose to stick with and hold to the traditional way as much as possible. You have to respect that choice as if it wasn't for those ones who did not try becoming Kiwi and either sink or swim then the urban Maori would have found no place to turn - when they went looking to re-find their culture during and since the renaissance.

Some people who stuck by the Pa have done OK as well. Prison head counts show great over representation of tribesmen from those who had land confiscated and tribes which clung to the Pa base. Remarkably low numbers of people citing Ngai Tahu in there.

[LilSel]

Havent read this whole thread...
However... this is what is being discussed in the office as I type... its crazy... always right before waitangi day... people argue bout it... become divided... its all I can hear... blah blah blah!!! happened a few months ago too... they started talking bout treaty... I knew what would happen... so I did the 'STOP RIGHT THERE.... talk about it after work plz... we all know what happens when this topic comes up...!! and thankfully... it did stop there for the day...

I wasnt in yesterday however and a colleague (part maori) yesterday called pretty much everyone in the office 2nd class citizens cuz of having no maori blood.... omg... talk about stirring shit up!!!....our boss is english... we have pay reviews in the next two weeks.... I think someone might've just shot themself in the foot lol... its madness.... they still going on about it now.... 20mins later (typed half post then had to do somethin lol)

EDIT:.... crazy.....

[T.I.E]

but let everyone fly a flag too. all nations including the KB flag.

im a kiwi. not a european,or maori. but i respect both cultures. history has happened.

[The_Dover]

All you say is true Ixion. Good post. I know a girl (now 20ish) of East Tamaki.
When she was 9 I went to stay in her criminal alcoholic household with perhaps 1 good parental role model. Dad was an absent druggy and step dad a pisshead - all night parties half the week. Hard enough to sleep in that house and the noise would make homework tricky for a kid.

At school she complained it was hard to learn as kids threw desks at teachers a lot and many scraps etc. She used to get asked to join gangs ie wear colours etc as she walked home always in carefully selected non colours.

She would say with a cheesy grin "Thankyou! But I'm afraid that will never be possible for me as I want to be a scholar, and I will never be able to get distracted from that". Her 2 brothers are in jail and her sister is a solo-mum to 3 with different fathers.

I did not think this girl ever had a chance and wondered for years - gettingg reports back thru grapevine every few. She has just completed a double degree in languages and I think political science. And is a top multicultural performer - she loves all island dancing coming from S akld.

She is plotting a diplomatic career as she has a passion for communicatrion and learning about other cultures. She is one of four kids and prolly the only one in a couple of mile radius of kids that grew up there to make it.

I saw another one like her in Huntly. A girl from the bronx going places. But it took something exceptional from within these people. Most people are very shaped by their environment - be it a successful family background or not.

I still say a long history of discrimination has impacted the average Maori who chose to stick with and hold to the traditional way as much as possible. You have to respect that choice as if it wasn't for those ones who did not try becoming Kiwi and either sink or swim then the urban Maori would have found no place to turn - when they went looking to re-find their culture during and since the renaissance.

Some people who stuck by the Pa have done OK as well. Prison head counts show great over representation of tribesmen from those who had land confiscated and tribes which clung to the Pa base. Remarkably low numbers of people citing Ngai Tahu in there.

Obviously a politician or gubmint employee then.

Skirting questions and garnishing propaganda.

Do you think there aren't white kids in the same sort of situation?

[candor]

Capitalism is about W-O-R-K-I-N-G for money. Enough about me, tell us about yourself. Which category do you fall under:

A) Work for the Government WORK AGAINST GOVT TO BEST OF ABILITY
B) Have maori blood NO - BUT IS THAT A DISCREDITOR OR BAD?
C) On a benefit or, STUDYING AND WORK PART TIME
D) Have long hair a wear sandals I HATE HIPPYS, THEY'RE CONTROL FRKS
F) Spent over 5 years at University

3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

Dover - you'd best write to the Min of Education regarding your concerns. No I don't think there aren't white kids in that boat - just far less frequently, its not useful to focus attention away from where the main play is.

[avgas]

I like this idea. Can they be written in Maori?

Then you would have to find someone who can read

[avgas]

Here is a racist idea:
how come they are allowed to call us 'pakeha' on every form i fill in - but i cant call them brownies?
Same thing really - a word that they only understand for me. Like naming your neighbors dog 'Rhubarb'.
Fucking insulting really.

[The_Dover]

3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

Dover - you'd best write to the Min of Education regarding your concerns.

Bloody nurses spouting academic theory and ethical bullshit. Fuck, no wonder the health system is so fucked up. Can't they just train you to clean bed pans and train dressings like the good old days??

You sound like my fuckin mother, she's a nurse with about 20 degrees and thinks she's saving the fucking world and believes all the socio-academia crappolla, yet she failed to look after and raise her own three kids.

They're not my concerns, I couldn't give a fuck if the next generation of porch monkeys are taught by under qualified culturally aware tree hugging butt fuckers. Just don't whine to me about being disadvanted cos the trainee dole bludgers can't fuckin read or write in engrish.

[avgas]

F) Spent over 5 years at University

FYI if your parents earn too much - and you have left home.....this idea COST's you money.
Its not all rosey outside your little box. Only for those that rip the system.

[eliot-ness]

After spending the last hour reading through all the posts I've come to realise just how isolated New Zealand is. No one seems to have recognised the pattern that repeats itself wherever Europeans have settled throughout the world. America and Canada, native tribes subjugated by force originally then supplied with cash and alchohol to keep them quiet while the white man took over. Australia, the same. South America, genocide to start with then alchohol and drugs. Africa, military force, alchohol. NZ, cash, alchohol. China in the 19th century, opium. India already had a flourishing cast system so no opiates were needed, just a generous handout to the local Sultans.
With the exception of China and India all these countries have inherited the same problems as New Zealand. Also, without exception in all of these countries those of European descent put the blame squarely on the lazy, indolent natives who refuse to see what's good for them and won't get off their backsides and work. The idea of handouts to appease the native population isn't new. I found a reference to it in a newspaper report from the 1860s. A Thames resident at the height of the gold rush complained that the Maori were being paid by the government to sit in the pubs drinking and causing trouble.
This is by no means confined to far flung outposts of the empire. The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.

[Crisis management]

They're not my concerns, I couldn't give a fuck if the next generation of porch monkeys are taught by under qualified culturally aware tree hugging butt fuckers. Just don't whine to me about being disadvanted cos the trainee dole bludgers can't fuckin read or write in engrish.

Oops...obviously not the group hug thread


Theres a degree of schizoid behaviour around today..

[The_Dover]

After spending the last hour reading through all the posts I've come to realise just how isolated New Zealand is. No one seems to have recognised the pattern that repeats itself wherever Europeans have settled throughout the world. America and Canada, native tribes subjugated by force originally then supplied with cash and alchohol to keep them quiet while the white man took over. Australia, the same. South America, genocide to start with then alchohol and drugs. Africa, military force, alchohol. NZ, cash, alchohol. China in the 19th century, opium. India already had a flourishing cast system so no opiates were needed, just a generous handout to the local Sultans.
With the exception of China and India all these countries have inherited the same problems as New Zealand. Also, without exception in all of these countries those of European descent put the blame squarely on the lazy, indolent natives who refuse to see what's good for them and won't get off their backsides and work. The idea of handouts to appease the native population isn't new. I found a reference to it in a newspaper report from the 1860s. A Thames resident at the height of the gold rush complained that the Maori were being paid by the government to sit in the pubs drinking and causing trouble.
This is by no means confined to far flung outposts of the empire. The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.

what's your point old man river?

[James Deuce]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.

Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can't really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZC...eb%20paper.pdf

stop happening.

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/featu...uchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and perverted Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.

Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.

[Finn]

3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

What the fuck has all that shit got to do with wiping peoples bottoms? No wonder our health system is 3rd world.

Talking of those "hate the white man" schools, theres one off Ponsonby Road in Auckland. I parked outside one once and heard this screaming. It was this "teacher" yelling "You fucking stupid idiot", she picked up this little boy by his arm and threw him into the corner. I called the cops but theres no fine for that so nothing happened.