My first poll for the NZ public

[BoristheBiter]

Not really, but your choice.

Yep and the ideas that you have are not going to change that and not that i want to change.



:killingme@narrow. I'm not saying that I've explored every single avenue of every single subject related to man since forever, I've explored a few and settled on what I believe would best suit the majority. And since when is making a choice nothing more than a narrow view of a thing?

What you believe? So it should be pompous then.
You make a choice that's fine but if someone makes a choice to disagree with you you call them narrow minded.

That just makes you a hypocrite.

[oldrider]

I prefer happy shopper meself , 22p a bottle Stephen Sharing ...its the new black

Saucey wee fucker are yeh! :killingme

[pritch]

tomato, tomato.



Yeah, I like Tuimato sauce. It's the only Tui product that will get in my door. Their sauce is good, their beer is rubbish.

[mashman]

Yep and the ideas that you have are not going to change that and not that i want to change.

What you believe? So it should be pompous then.
You make a choice that's fine but if someone makes a choice to disagree with you you call them narrow minded.

That just makes you a hypocrite.

Who wants to change? I'm merely asking for the system to be changed.

Yes, what I believe. Similarly the red, green and blue do what they believe best for the majority of people.
I'm not calling anyone narrow minded... I was merely pointing out that any decision could be seen as a narrow minded decision because a choice has been made, but it doesn't mean that it's a narrow minded decision in the slightest. After all, you brought the narrow minded thing up in the first place.

Ironing.

[Brian d marge]

Saucey wee fucker are yeh! :killingme
one does love a touch of sauce
https://realeyezlife.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/balsbs.jpg


ohh you are awful .......


Stephen

[Akzle]

Yeah, I like Tuimato sauce. It's the only Tui product that will get in my door. Their sauce is good, their beer is rubbish.

not bad but full of sulphites. Euch.
The other to try is delmaine smoky bbq. Also full of sulphites. But tasty until you realise.

[BoristheBiter]

After all, you brought the narrow minded thing up in the first place.





So parochial.

So you don't know the meaning of parochial then.
:killingme:killingme
What an idiot.

[unstuck]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/P03n_1U6twI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:brick::brick::brick:

[BoristheBiter]

brick::brick::brick:

Have to keep it going somehow.

But Paramore? Really?:whistle:

[unstuck]

Have to keep it going somehow.

But Paramore? Really?:whistle:

What, you prefer Rihanna's version. You sick bastard.:crazy:

[mashman]

So you don't know the meaning of parochial then.
:killingme:killingme
What an idiot.

Ohhhhhh, so that's what it means. Now I'm not an idiot :D

[mashman]

The Money Free Party are on Q+A this morning according to their farsebook page.

[mashman]

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10675547_788796724517314_4238184598700519934_n.jpg ?oh=49bdc533bef9dc8c247dfd07d74db149&oe=54D155FF

[Ocean1]

Mashland Fantasy

So, which ten thousand lazy fuckwits are you supporting?

[mashman]

So, which ten thousand lazy fuckwits are you supporting?

All of you.

[bogan]

So, which ten thousand lazy fuckwits are you supporting?

I'm trying to think of any tech breakthroughs that see one person support ten thousand people today, let alone 30 years ago...

[Ocean1]

I'm trying to think of any tech breakthroughs that see one person support ten thousand people today, let alone 30 years ago...

Fuller is one of the few who could probably claim that he produced at least that much technology. But no matter how powerful the tools the likes of him have provided we have made only enough use of them to make ourselves comfortable.

Evolution made us lazy. Is a good trait to have, resting whenever you can in a world where you expend most of the energy a human body can produce just to remain alive. But as eating as much as you can stops being a good survival trait when cheap and plentiful food is available resting as much as you can ceases to be optimal behaviour when you don't actually have to produce anything to survive at all.

Both are behaviours that make us less than we could easily be, and both can be improved the same way: Discipline.

[Brian d marge]

I'm trying to think of any tech breakthroughs that see one person support ten thousand people today, let alone 30 years ago...
6 fish and a few loaves of bread should do it

Been done before

I'm trying to think of any tech breakthroughs that see one person support ten thousand people today, let alone 30 years ago...

[mashman]

Fuller is one of the few who could probably claim that he produced at least that much technology. But no matter how powerful the tools the likes of him have provided we have made only enough use of them to make ourselves comfortable.

Evolution made us lazy. Is a good trait to have, resting whenever you can in a world where you expend most of the energy a human body can produce just to remain alive. But as eating as much as you can stops being a good survival trait when cheap and plentiful food is available resting as much as you can ceases to be optimal behaviour when you don't actually have to produce anything to survive at all.

Both are behaviours that make us less than we could easily be, and both can be improved the same way: Discipline.

Primarily due to financial constraint.

Bullshit. Not all are lazy by any means. Humans wanna play, not rest... the downside is that it's fuckin expensive to play and there are only so many hours in the day... and limited "holidays"... and there's always the bills to pay... meh. I have no problem with people eating themselves to death.

Aye, that's the best thing about human behaviour, it changes according to the environment that fosters it. The behaviour that the financial system invokes is not pretty at all. Ditch it and we may well see a seasonably adjusted rise in the ratio of individuals to support personel. I'm pretty damned certain of it achually. Wish you were here.

[bogan]

Fuller is one of the few who could probably claim that he produced at least that much technology. But no matter how powerful the tools the likes of him have provided we have made only enough use of them to make ourselves comfortable.

Evolution made us lazy. Is a good trait to have, resting whenever you can in a world where you expend most of the energy a human body can produce just to remain alive. But as eating as much as you can stops being a good survival trait when cheap and plentiful food is available resting as much as you can ceases to be optimal behaviour when you don't actually have to produce anything to survive at all.

Both are behaviours that make us less than we could easily be, and both can be improved the same way: Discipline.

Yeh that is just it though, those tech breakthrough are tools, and still need someone employed to wield them.

Agreed, I think a society made up predominantly of people who do fuck all would be quite detrimental to that society, not from a lack of work output but flow on effects of laziness like stupidity, and moral decay.

[Ocean1]

Agreed, I think a society made up predominantly of people who do fuck all would be quite detrimental to that society, not from a lack of work output but flow on effects of laziness like stupidity, and moral decay.

You don't think we're there yet?

[bogan]

You don't think we're there yet?

Nah, predominantly is a bit strong of a word for where we are at just at the moment.

[Ocean1]

Nah, predominantly is a bit strong of a word for where we are at just at the moment.

If you measure productivity by total revenue earned minus total consumption then in NZ today you get 55% consuming more than they earn.

Isn't that predominant?

[Akzle]

If you measure productivity by total revenue earned minus total consumption

hahahahaha. Revenue.
Fuck i hope you get cancer. See the value of your revenue then.

[Ocean1]

hahahahaha. Revenue.
Fuck i hope you get cancer. See the value of your revenue then.

Earned.

And I hope one day you have to live on no more than you earn.

Harsh, but you deserve it.

[bogan]

If you measure productivity by total revenue earned minus total consumption then in NZ today you get 55% consuming more than they earn.

Isn't that predominant?

No, I mean wouldn't 50% be 'normal' by that metric?

Predominant is also higher than a majority init? so talking 80%+ I would say.

[Ocean1]

No, I mean wouldn't 50% be 'normal' by that metric?

Predominant is also higher than a majority init? so talking 80%+ I would say.

It would be if the consumption in that 55% included a personal share of the nominal cost of infrastructure etc, but it's a straight tax paid / personal benefits collected sum. If you included non-benefit consumption in that calculation you may not find 80% running a deficit but you won't be far short.

What's wrong with expecting yer average bloke to stump up with the wherewithal to pay for his share of the country's costs AND support himself?

[Laava]

I would be prepared to vote on this poll if it was a binding referendum.

[Akzle]

Earned.

And I hope one day you have to live on no more than you earn.

Harsh, but you deserve it.

earn? Hows that?
Earn what?

Doesnt everyone get exactly what they deserve?

[Brian d marge]

What's wrong with expecting yer average bloke to stump up with the wherewithal to pay for his share of the country's costs AND support himself?

Nothing . . . In a perfect world

But between my money and helping the country or people

There are too many that dont need but are taking . . .most of those fkwrs in wellington for example

So i give direct cuts out the middle man

[Ocean1]

earn? Hows that?
Earn what?

Completely foreign concept, I know but it means freely exchanging your efforts with someone else's.


Doesnt everyone get exactly what they deserve?

Only in a free market.

[bogan]

It would be if the consumption in that 55% included a personal share of the nominal cost of infrastructure etc, but it's a straight tax paid / personal benefits collected sum. If you included non-benefit consumption in that calculation you may not find 80% running a deficit but you won't be far short.

What's wrong with expecting yer average bloke to stump up with the wherewithal to pay for his share of the country's costs AND support himself?

Ah, yup now I get ya (the 55% did seem low for the way I was thinking).

Nothing at all; in fact one could say it shows good moral fiber.

[Akzle]

Completely foreign concept, I know but it means freely exchanging your efforts with someone else's.



Only in a free market.

i do exchange my effort. Frequently for free. So that sounds like freely exchanging....

And by whos measure is it to be quant/qual-ified?

What effort has gone in to inventing 'money'?

And why do you need a 'market' to get whats deserved?

[Ocean1]

i do exchange my effort. Frequently for free. So that sounds like freely exchanging....

And by whos measure is it to be quant/qual-ified?

What effort has gone in to inventing 'money'?

And why do you need a 'market' to get whats deserved?

Good onya, makes you about on par with most people.

The person you're exchanging services with, who the fuck else should decide what it's worth?

Fuck all. What's' your point?

Because that's what it's called when you willingly exchange shit. The other thing is called theft.

[Akzle]

Good onya, makes you about on par with most people.

The person you're exchanging services with, who the fuck else should decide what it's worth?

Fuck all. What's' your point?

Because that's what it's called when you willingly exchange shit. The other thing is called theft.

sorry. Guess im thefting all these vegies, and these animals, and fish and what not.
So, then.what service/value would one exchange with whom, in being unemployed, thats worth a hunnit eighty buck a week?

[Ocean1]

sorry. Guess im thefting all these vegies, and these animals, and fish and what not.

Only if they belong to someone else.

You can continue to pretend to misunderstand basic economics till the cows come home, doesn't change the fact that every civilisation on earth has "invented" something similar because it represents a fair way to manage resource allocation. The ONLY people that hate it to death are those who want more than they they're willing to earn.

And outside of charity cases they can all get fucked.


So, then.what service/value would one exchange with whom, in being unemployed, thats worth a hunnit eighty buck a week?

Whatever ones your capable of which someone would willingly pay $180 for, obviously, again: the only ones pretending that's not fair are those that want something without having earned it.

And given that, if asked yer average taxpayer would decline to pay you $180 for fuck all the unemployment benefit does indeed represent theft.

[Akzle]

Only if they belong to someone else.

You can continue to pretend to misunderstand basic economics till the cows come home, doesn't change the fact that every civilisation on earth has "invented" something similar because it represents a fair way to manage resource allocation. The ONLY people that hate it to death are those who want more than they they're willing to earn.

And outside of charity cases they can all get fucked.



Whatever ones your capable of which someone would willingly pay $180 for, obviously, again: the only ones pretending that's not fair are those that want something without having earned it.

And given that, if asked yer average taxpayer would decline to pay you $180 for fuck all the unemployment benefit does indeed represent theft.

ahh. belong.

to whom does the land belong? or the animals? surely, when i take, i take off them, and god, i'm awful sorry for that, just let me know who i'm stealing from.

manage resource allocation? jeez that sound like a full time job... who's?

and what about the economic benefits of having people unemployed? surely that's worth paying 180$ a week for? infact, i'd say it's a fucking bargain...

[mashman]

ahh. belong.

Entitlement complex :whistle:

[Ocean1]

ahh. belong.

to whom does the land belong? or the animals? surely, when i take, i take off them, and god, i'm awful sorry for that, just let me know who i'm stealing from.

manage resource allocation? jeez that sound like a full time job... who's?

and what about the economic benefits of having people unemployed? surely that's worth paying 180$ a week for? infact, i'd say it's a fucking bargain...

Aye, usually refers to wealth created by the individual in question. Created.

Land? Depends, mine belongs to me, what having paid for it an' all.

$180? I'd say the provision of fuck all is worth exactly $0.00.

[oldrider]

I remember Henry Ford had some interesting attitudes about value of human resource managent and rewards.

I think he increased wages and more than doubled production? Google might have some info on him! :yes:

Interesting ... can't sell product if customers don't have any money! :scratch:

[Akzle]

Aye, usually refers to wealth created by the individual in question. Created.

Land? Depends, mine belongs to me, what having paid for it an' all.

$180? I'd say the provision of fuck all is worth exactly $0.00.

wealth? where does one get that stuff? i see a lot of debt, being that the whole system is debt... but wealth. please, share your enlightenment, that we may all find this "wealth"
(rhetoric. i'm wealthier than you ever will be. caravan and all.)

created? there's only one creator (or two, or seven, depending which big book you prefer to read) YOU have NEVER created anything. you are, at best, a food-to-poo conversion unit.

you own land?!?!?!?!?

i think not!

i think, if you look at the paperwork (you know, you swapped some pretty paper for another bitty paper...) you'll find the words "fee simple title"
title is not ownership. and i think you'll find that fee simple isn't even the best title. and i think you find, when you bin the meat suit, that neither title nor paper is going to be much good to you.

also. who did you buy it off? who bought it originally? what was the original contract that allowed you, down the line, to buy it at all??? who bought the land off god? who did god sell title to?

keeping inflation down, wages down, the employment market in the employers favor.... i'd say these things are worth 180, wouldn't you?

[Ocean1]

wealth? where does one get that stuff? i see a lot of debt, being that the whole system is debt... but wealth. please, share your enlightenment, that we may all find this "wealth"
(rhetoric. i'm wealthier than you ever will be. caravan and all.)

created? there's only one creator (or two, or seven, depending which big book you prefer to read) YOU have NEVER created anything. you are, at best, a food-to-poo conversion unit.

you own land?!?!?!?!?

i think not!

i think, if you look at the paperwork (you know, you swapped some pretty paper for another bitty paper...) you'll find the words "fee simple title"
title is not ownership. and i think you'll find that fee simple isn't even the best title. and i think you find, when you bin the meat suit, that neither title nor paper is going to be much good to you.

also. who did you buy it off? who bought it originally? what was the original contract that allowed you, down the line, to buy it at all??? who bought the land off god? who did god sell title to?

keeping inflation down, wages down, the employment market in the employers favor.... i'd say these things are worth 180, wouldn't you?

As I said, one creates it. It involves the manufacture of something that had not previously existed, and possibly but not exclusively exchanging it for something else. Pretending that everything everyone owns is either stolen from gaia and or purchased with money owned by someone else is bullshit, pure and simple.

As is your limited legal interpretation of the definition of land ownership. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, in your case it's not much worth bothering with.

And no amount of smoke and mirrors, including economic voodoo nobody, but nobody actually believes will come close to demonstrating that dole bludgers contribute anything worthwhile whatsoever in exchange for their alms, economically they're worth precisely minus $180 per week, no more, and probably a great deal less.

[Akzle]

As I said, one creates it. It involves the manufacture of something that had not previously existed, and possibly but not exclusively exchanging it for something else. Pretending that everything everyone owns is either stolen from gaia and or purchased with money owned by someone else is bullshit, pure and simple.

As is your limited legal interpretation of the definition of land ownership. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, in your case it's not much worth bothering with.

And no amount of smoke and mirrors, including economic voodoo nobody, but nobody actually believes will come close to demonstrating that dole bludgers contribute anything worthwhile whatsoever in exchange for their alms, economically they're worth precisely minus $180 per week, no more, and probably a great deal less.

you don't have a piece of paper that says "title" on it? there's more to your claim of "ownership" of land?

someone else does own money. (it's a sneaky fucken jew...)
you never really answered that one though.. (or any others, but hey) how did title come from "the creator" to "Surname, Mr. First Name"?

no-one's made shit. they've just jiggled the shit that was already here and called it an improvement and sold it to the masses.

dole bludgers? who applied that title? i'm talking about, ahem, job-seekers:rofl::rofl:

[Ocean1]

no-one's made shit. they've just jiggled the shit that was already here and called it an improvement and sold it to the masses.

I make shit every single day that hasn't existed before, and my clients don't agree with your summation of the results. And their opinion as to the value of the shit I've jiggled is rather a lot more qualified than yours, not to mention a lot more valuable.


dole bludgers? who applied that title? i'm talking about, ahem, job-seekers:rofl::rofl:

Strine. They're a feckless bunch but they have a wonderful gift in calling a spade a fucking shovel.

[mashman]

Kinda sums it up quite nicely.

http://intsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/207292_166380446751302_146500522072628_331180_7196 808_n.jpg

[bogan]

Sounds pretty materialistic to me. I've been running in 'free world' mode for yonks; living costs fuck all.

Thinking about it, that does sum it up quite well, cos the barrier to living in a 'free world' is all in your head.

[mashman]

Sounds pretty materialistic to me. I've been running in 'free world' mode for yonks; living costs fuck all.

Thinking about it, that does sum it up quite well, cos the barrier to living in a 'free world' is all in your head.

It is in the head, right where that MONEY TO LIVE bit is.

[Akzle]

funny... It felt like my skull was missing a big red bit.
Thankfully, i filled it with greeeeeeen!

[Brian d marge]

funny... It felt like my skull was missing a big red bit.
Thankfully, i filled it with greeeeeeen!

pure greeen

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TkZFuKHXa7w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[avgas]

Kinda sums it up quite nicely.
I think that diagram is wrong. Half the people I have met if you took the money section of the job out (and likewise the brain component).....their head would make the sound of jellybeans in a tin.

[mashman]

I think that diagram is wrong. Half the people I have met if you took the money section of the job out (and likewise the brain component).....their head would make the sound of jellybeans in a tin.

Less likely to shaft anyone then ;). Means the problem must be with those fuckers who've forgotten how to be a human being, but should know better... on paper at least.

[mashman]

Falling oil prices shake up global economies. (http://news.yahoo.com/falling-oil-prices-shake-global-070223195.html)

It's a bad joke that money can affect economies in such ways. Useless humans.

[Brian d marge]

Falling oil prices shake up global economies. (http://news.yahoo.com/falling-oil-prices-shake-global-070223195.html)

It's a bad joke that money can affect economies in such ways. Useless humans.

hahahahaaa

GO THE ISLAMIC STATES ......SOmeone is dumping cheap oil on the market ,

and thats going to piss the a,rabs right off

Stephen

[mashman]

The gentle waft of revolution breezes across the plains of consciousness... ommmmmmmm (http://daviddegraw.org/occupying-russell-brand/)

[Brian d marge]

Hey btw does anyone know how kim dotcom found outhe was being spied on . . .i thought he hired a detective to find out why he had so much lag on his online game

[Akzle]

.i thought he hired a detective to find out why he had so much lag on his online game

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=304278&stc=1&d=1413656867

[avgas]

Hey btw does anyone know how kim dotcom found outhe was being spied on . . .i thought he hired a detective to find out why he had so much lag on his online game
Megaupload/video had about a dozen network engineers. He got one of them to trace his connection from home.

You can do it from home using a tracert or similar functions - but the brain science is finding out where the servers are etc.

This is why governments hate TOR networks - because it scrambles the hell out of your connection.

[avgas]

image
LOL that must be fake - no moron would name the server/router GCSB HQ

it would be something more subtle like "hieye" or "ceiling"

[Akzle]

LOL that must be fake - no moron would name the server/router GCSB HQ

it would be something more subtle like "hieye" or "ceiling"

you dont fucken say?

[avgas]

you dont fucken say?
true story bro.

FYI if you ever find Optimus or Beldin......they are good friends of mine, and completely safe.

[mashman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E08_EmJlpO8

Why wouldn't you?

[mashman]

This guy from The Venus Project explains it very well and in just over 3 minutes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4lEeRv72A

[mashman]

This shit simply won't exist in an R.B.E.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW57hoCkTjE&feature=youtu.be

[bogan]

This guy from The Venus Project explains it very well and in just over 3 minutes.

lol, bet his missus had a depression when there weren't enough inches to go around :eek:


This shit simply won't exist in an R.B.E.

Unless your house is situated on/near a resource TPTB deem necessary, then it's all break out the hammers and harvest that shit yo :yes:

[mashman]

lol, bet his missus had a depression when there weren't enough inches to go around :eek:

Unless your house is situated on/near a resource TPTB deem necessary, then it's all break out the hammers and harvest that shit yo :yes:

:rofl: :clap:

Hammers, they're the new diamonds.

[cowpoos]

Some see the idea a pure pie in the sky. But i'm curious. There are 50,000,000 registered people (give or take) around the world that agree that a financial system is not necessary. Sorry if I've left any options out.

It shows there are 50,000,000 very very idealistic and not very bright people having a very very ignorant opinion.
Which they are entitled to have.

I hope F*$k all of them live in NZ?

[mashman]

It shows there are 50,000,000 very very idealistic and not very bright people having a very very ignorant opinion.
Which they are entitled to have.

I hope F*$k all of them live in NZ?

:killingme... 50 million people left that believe in the fantasy world of the financial system mebee.

[Brian d marge]

This shit simply won't exist in an R.B.E.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW57hoCkTjE&feature=youtu.be
my hometown that

lived on the islington estate for a year or so untill moving down road to stoke newington

if u think these preditory companies arent a nz problem

sign the tppa the watch the fun begin . . . .

[mashman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipe6CMvW0Dg

[oldrider]

Mmmkay.

"They" tell us what is wrong with our direction but do not offer an alternative - we have evolved the way we are because we follow our needs!

The only thing wrong with that is that those who control us do so always with them selves foremost on their minds - "they" are identifiable and can be changed!

What we lack is understanding and a common direction to have a better "they" in our world! :sunny:

[Akzle]

[video=youtube

lmfao.. not like i've been saying it for fucken years.

mmmmmmmmmmm doooooobie.

[mashman]

lmfao.. not like i've been saying it for fucken years.

mmmmmmmmmmm doooooobie.

Takes us some time to catch up with you frontier breaking type folk.

[oldrider]

Keep up with Bitcoin progress here:http://www.coindesk.com/ .doesn't seem to want to go away - does it? :rolleyes:

[Brian d marge]

Keep up with Bitcoin progress here:http://www.coindesk.com/ .doesn't seem to want to go away - does it? :rolleyes:
yes . .mongo is interested
it . , .seems . .to take the power away from the tards

[Brian d marge]

Keep up with Bitcoin progress here:http://www.coindesk.com/ .doesn't seem to want to go away - does it? :rolleyes:
hahahahahaaar thats gold right there

dear mr key assume the position ,

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/04/785fdb404fbfdf2b6efe924df5989b5d.jpg

hahahahahaa gold

[mashman]

Cool idea.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8_wQiYIIAAhRnF.png

[oldrider]

Today an introduction to Bitcoin from CoinDesk: http://www.coindesk.com/information/what-is-bitcoin/ :niceone:

[mashman]

Today an introduction to Bitcoin from CoinDesk: http://www.coindesk.com/information/what-is-bitcoin/ :niceone:

:killingme... yay, another financial system to replace another financial system.

[mashman]

Entitlement complex. Scientifically proven.

Paul Piff: Does money make you mean? (https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean?language=en#t-763731)

[Ocean1]

Entitlement complex. Scientifically proven.

Paul Piff: Does money make you mean? (https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean?language=en#t-763731)

Yes, I'm afraid so.

Lazy cunts that earn fuck all and think they're as good as the next man are indeed full of shit.

[mashman]

Yes, I'm afraid so.

Lazy cunts that earn fuck all and think we're as good as the next man are indeed full of shit.

Fixed that for ya.

[mashman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

[mashman]

"You're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking. That is all cultural diversion, and what is real is you and your friends and your associations, your highs, your orgasms, your hopes, your plans, your fears. And we are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world." - Terence McKenna

[Brian d marge]

I see at least 2 brains explodiing

[Akzle]

I see at least 2 brains explodiing

that's just the mushies kicking in, dude...

[Brian d marge]

that's just the mushies kicking in, dude...
Stand back from the red button

[mashman]

A Conscious Response = A Resource Based Economy

Props to Katman for finding it :niceone:

"Doing the conscious and responsible thing is the duty of every living creature, not just “activists”, another term used pejoratively to keep people from doing the obvious." (http://wakeup-world.com/2015/04/23/how-much-more-evidence-do-we-need-to-take-action-revolution/)

:wari:

[Akzle]

Stand back from the red button

that's MY red button...

[unstuck]

A Conscious Response = A Resource Based Economy

Props to Katman for finding it :niceone:

"Doing the conscious and responsible thing is the duty of every living creature, not just “activists”, another term used pejoratively to keep people from doing the obvious." (http://wakeup-world.com/2015/04/23/how-much-more-evidence-do-we-need-to-take-action-revolution/)

:wari:

Yep, it's an inside job.:Punk::Punk:

[mashman]

Yep, it's an inside job.:Punk::Punk:

Not, yet, for everyone.

[mashman]

The secret country again wages war on its own people (http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-secret-country-again-wages-war-on-its-own-people)

[Brian d marge]

You will see a lot of war ( galipoli ) news of late ,trying to soften ordinary folks view of war .... you will hear words like pride , service, cause ......

You WILL NEVER hear words like tricked.. fooled a waste of time ......what ever

Tis the retoric of the state , and them damn abbo's what with all their walkabouts and strange non western attributes are taking the brunt of dear old white van mans media

got to feel sorry for em


Stephen

[Grumph]

You will see a lot of war ( galipoli ) news of late ,trying to soften ordinary folks view of war .... you will hear words like pride , service, cause ......

You WILL NEVER hear words like tricked.. fooled a waste of time ......what ever

Tis the retoric of the state , and them damn abbo's what with all their walkabouts and strange non western attributes are taking the brunt of dear old white van mans media

got to feel sorry for em


Stephen

Surprisingly, TV3's coverage with Mike McRoberts on Gallipoli has mentioned Allied leaders incompetence more than once and has been very pointed as to just how much of a forlorn hope the whole thing was. Even the current head of the defence force went so far as to mourn lost opportunities and poor tactical thinking. But of course that channel is the leftist propaganda outlet....isn't it ?

[Brian d marge]

Surprisingly, TV3's coverage with Mike McRoberts on Gallipoli has mentioned Allied leaders incompetence more than once and has been very pointed as to just how much of a forlorn hope the whole thing was. Even the current head of the defence force went so far as to mourn lost opportunities and poor tactical thinking. But of course that channel is the leftist propaganda outlet....isn't it ?
Its was not much of military decision
But softening down of the whole affair
Almost a glorification
Makes it easier for people to accept the young men going to far of places today

Judt a thought I had as here in japan we dont have that kind of celebration
Well we do but it causes huge problems with china so they keep things very low key

[mashman]

UNPRECEDENTED ABUNDANCE (http://daviddegraw.org/unprecedented-abundance-economic-reality-peer-through-the-illusion/)

[Akzle]

UNPRECEDENTED ABUNDANCE (http://daviddegraw.org/unprecedented-abundance-economic-reality-peer-through-the-illusion/)

shhhhh! Dont tell ocean bro. Theres statistics at stake!

[Ocean1]

UNPRECEDENTED ABUNDANCE (http://daviddegraw.org/unprecedented-abundance-economic-reality-peer-through-the-illusion/)


How insane is it that we spend half of all of our tax dollars on the military?

Turns out to be around 3%: http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

In fact there's hardly a coherent numeric fact in the "article".

But, y'know, whatever makes you feel your shortcomings are all someone else's fault is probably correct.

[bogan]

Turns out to be around 3%: http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

In fact there's hardly a coherent numeric fact in the "article".

But, y'know, whatever makes you feel your shortcomings are all someone else's fault is probably correct.

Think it is up around the 12% mark when you consider it as portion of tax (for US), instead of portion of GDP. Still a fair way from 50% though, but, still way ahead of what is spent on NASA, cunts.

[Akzle]

Think it is up around the 12% mark when you consider it as portion of tax (for US), instead of portion of GDP. Still a fair way from 50% though, but, still way ahead of what is spent on NASA, cunts.

vote akzle.


((i have a keen interest in rocketry, particularly one-way trips to the sun...))

[Ocean1]

Think it is up around the 12% mark when you consider it as portion of tax (for US), instead of portion of GDP. Still a fair way from 50% though, but, still way ahead of what is spent on NASA, cunts.

I think it's more than that too, although I'm told it's decreasing. The point being of course that for them to be spending 50% of tax on bombs and shit they'd need to be taxing at 6%.

And, then, I guess there's worse things to spend taxpayers money on than a military wage packet, at least you're getting something for your money. In which regard, (speaking of which) beats the shit out of social welfare spending.... which is well more than their military spend.

Edit: Re NASA, I think it was Jerry Pournelle who said the budget required to fund the post-Apollo 11 moon landing project was less than the average family spent on coffee. And they couldn't manage it.

[mashman]

Turns out to be around 3%: http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

In fact there's hardly a coherent numeric fact in the "article".

But, y'know, whatever makes you feel your shortcomings are all someone else's fault is probably correct.

3% is by far too many people. :killingme@shortcomings. Fault is irrelevant. That there is a need is of more concern.

[Ocean1]

3% is by far too many people. :killingme@shortcomings. Fault is irrelevant. That there is a need is of more concern.

3% is nothing to do with people, it was tax dollars. Which just happened to be the first actual number I found in that garbage you posted. Which turned out to be spectacularly wrong, indicating that reading any further was pointless: It's drivel.

Well they're your shortcomings, it's hardly irrelevant to point out that they're not anyone else's.

Need for what? Military spending? Almost every tribe in recorded history has been destroyed because they didn't spend enough on defense. Any contemporary nation should be far more concerned about their similar lack of military resources than any supposed surplus.

[Brian d marge]

Need for what? Military spending? Almost every tribe in recorded history has been destroyed because they didn't spend enough on defense. Any contemporary nation should be far more concerned about their similar lack of military resources than any supposed surplus.

Oh really
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/26/4bd2cc48a2ed78ced669bd7a032428a5.jpg
As in sweeping statements

[mashman]

3% is nothing to do with people, it was tax dollars. Which just happened to be the first actual number I found in that garbage you posted. Which turned out to be spectacularly wrong, indicating that reading any further was pointless: It's drivel.

Well they're your shortcomings, it's hardly irrelevant to point out that they're not anyone else's.

Need for what? Military spending? Almost every tribe in recorded history has been destroyed because they didn't spend enough on defense. Any contemporary nation should be far more concerned about their similar lack of military resources than any supposed surplus.

3% is everything to do with people :facepalm:.

Didn't think otherwise. Nice arsumption though.

Time to grow the fuck up and stop warring then.

[bogan]

Time to grow the fuck up and stop warring then.

Perhaps you should show others how to do that, instead of perpetuating negativity and conflict.

Time to grow up indeed :yes:

[Akzle]

Perhaps you should show others how to do that, instead of perpetuating negativity and conflict.

Time to grow up indeed :yes:

always with the negative vibrations man!

(insert kellys heros vid)

[bogan]

always with the negative vibrations man!

(insert kellys heros vid)

I think he's a pom so may not be able to help it...

[Akzle]

I think he's a pom so may not be able to help it...

him. Right...

[mashman]

Perhaps you should show others how to do that, instead of perpetuating negativity and conflict.

Time to grow up indeed :yes:

:killingme@negativity and conflict. So you believe in ghosts? because you're chasing them there son.

[unstuck]

If I was world leader I would kill all you motherfuckers, then I could be happy, because there would be no-one left to upset me. Because if someone is offending you or upsetting you, then they have a problem and need to change so you feel better and the answer seems to be to eliminate them from your experience.
Seems to be working on the planet so far.:killingme:killingme

[mashman]

If I was world leader I would kill all you motherfuckers, then I could be happy, because there would be no-one left to upset me. Because if someone is offending you or upsetting you, then they have a problem and need to change so you feel better and the answer seems to be to eliminate them from your experience.
Seems to be working on the planet so far.:killingme:killingme

I'll consider that when I'm world leader. Ta.

[bogan]

:killingme@negativity and conflict. So you believe in ghosts? because you're chasing them there son.

See, you've no desire for shared understanding, just negativity and conflict. Shared understanding would be required for disarmament of course...

[unstuck]

I'll consider that when I'm world leader. Ta.

You do not have what it takes Mashy, you would have to ask your wife if it was ok to become world leader.:nono:

[mashman]

See, you've no desire for shared understanding, just negativity and conflict. Shared understanding would be required for disarmament of course...

I have every desire for shared understanding. You system is shit! Period! Your support for it makes me laugh. There is a better way. The negativity you see is yours and yours alone.


You do not have what it takes Mashy, you would have to ask your wife if it was ok to become world leader.:nono:

It's not gonna happen tomorrow and she realises that we each have own life to lead ;)

[bogan]

I have every desire for shared understanding. You system is shit! Period! Your support for it makes me laugh. There is a better way. The negativity you see is yours and yours alone.

No, I think it yours. The shared understanding bit would be where instead of just making sweeping claims, you show it; like how I show you what is, and you shy from it because its greatness is incompatible with your negativity and conflict. Take how you think increasing GDP is money printing for example, you simply do not understand, nor have nay desire to.

[mashman]

No, I think it yours.

I know you think it's mine. Stop thinking, because you're clearly no good at it if you're going to claim to know my thoughts on any given subject. Get past that, and I may attempt to teach you more.

[bogan]

I know you think it's mine. Stop thinking, because you're clearly no good at it if you're going to claim to know my thoughts on any given subject. Get past that, and I may attempt to teach you more.

That was the understanding you attempted to share though, what else am I supposed to claim you think? Or have you a different understanding on that topic you now wish to share?

[mashman]

That was the understanding you attempted to share though, what else am I supposed to claim you think? Or have you a different understanding on that topic you now wish to share?

Great. Enjoy YOUR understanding.

[bogan]

Great. Enjoy YOUR understanding.

See, you've no desire to create a shared one.

[mashman]

See, you've no desire to create a shared one.

Not with you, no. That's a job for someone else.

[bogan]

Not with you, no. That's a job for someone else.

:killingme Everything is with you isn't it.

[mashman]

:killingme Everything is with you isn't it.

No. +chars

[Ocean1]

Oh really
As in sweeping statements

You obviously didn't like your history lessons, though.

Maybe you'd like to do them now, go find out how many cultural entities have occupied your British Isles over the last few thousand years. Hint: If the Romans hadn't sorted their shit the "English" would likely still be living in squalor and hiding from the Saxons.

And then maybe for homework you could see if you can find a couple of ancient nations that have never been invaded and are therefore still around. Take your time, you'll need it.

[Brian d marge]

You obviously didn't like your history lessons, though.

Maybe you'd like to do them now, go find out how many cultural entities have occupied your British Isles over the last few thousand years. Hint: If the Romans hadn't sorted their shit the "English" would likely still be living in squalor and hiding from the Saxons.

And then maybe for homework you could see if you can find a couple of ancient nations that have never been invaded and are therefore still around. Take your time, you'll need it.

Nice try ,

but along with your Knowledge of economics , you can now add History of the Empire

First ya need to define who what and where ....

but Ill skip straight to the point

Trade ,,, was how cultures mixed ,and still do today ... tis how cultures spread .... right from the dawn of time

Now as for battles ,there werent actually that many , most were sieges, battles as such were a pain in the arse for both sides

As Ive told you before ( not that you listen , as ya are still believing that 14 % of the welfare spend is causing vast problems in NZ,,,,but i digress )


As I ve explained before there are 7 stages to a empires collapse most if not ALL have followed the same pattern and ,,,,,,,,Spending on the military IS ONE that pivots the outlook ....

Drawing board you must return .........

Stephen

[Ocean1]

Nice try ,

but along with your Knowledge of economics , you can now add History of the Empire

First ya need to define who what and where ....

but Ill skip straight to the point

Trade ,,, was how cultures mixed ,and still do today ... tis how cultures spread .... right from the dawn of time

Now as for battles ,there werent actually that many , most were sieges, battles as such were a pain in the arse for both sides

As Ive told you before ( not that you listen , as ya are still believing that 14 % of the welfare spend is causing vast problems in NZ,,,,but i digress )


As I ve explained before there are 7 stages to a empires collapse most if not ALL have followed the same pattern and ,,,,,,,,Spending on the military IS ONE that pivots the outlook ....

Drawing board you must return .........

Stephen

You've never explained any such thing, you mean you've read a synopsis of Jarrod Diamond's book and you think you know how shit works.

The point I made was that almost every nation that's ever existed has been conquered by another and no longer exists as a result. A fact that mr google is happy to agree with: first page, first item: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states

And trade as it most certainly did, Britain has been invaded dozens of times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_the_British_Isles

See, this learning shit's not difficult, you've just got to stop pretending that you already know shit.

[Brian d marge]

You've never explained any such thing, you mean you've read a synopsis of Jarrod Diamond's book and you think you know how shit works.

The point I made was that almost every nation that's ever existed has been conquered by another and no longer exists as a result. A fact that mr google is happy to agree with: first page, first item: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_sovereign_states

And trade as it most certainly did, Britain has been invaded dozens of times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasions_of_the_British_Isles

See, this learning shit's not difficult, you've just got to stop pretending that you already know shit.

Go back and read the two links u posted
In the opening paragraphs they both say similar about trade
Snip
As they interacted with their less developed neighbors through trade, warfare, migration, and more generalized ideological influences, the primary states directly or indirectly fostered the emergence of secondary states in surrounding areas,

Shall i quote ur original post which used and said something different from this post of yours

In fact now that I have some time ...here IS your original post;

Military spending? Almost every tribe in recorded history has been destroyed because they didn't spend enough on defense. Any contemporary nation should be far more concerned about their similar lack of military resources than any supposed surplus

Assimilate or conquer . . Let me guess

Heres a hint . . . .if ya dont know . . Put a disclaimer in front such as . . .I think , .or Im not sure but . .
Like I does
No I havent read that book I picked up my knowledge from a crowd funded community driven
School
It may not be perfect but it seems to be better than your sources todate as well some other basics
You did read those links before you posted them ?

[Brian d marge]

You do not have what it takes Mashy, you would have to ask your wife if it was ok to become world leader.:nono:
U can be world leader

But

I am god

[Akzle]

U can be world leader

But

I am god

i and i .

[Brian d marge]

i and i .
You would be working for the american ,,,, many many red buttons ...

[unstuck]

“The earth has been here long before us, and it will continue to be here long after we’ve been wiped out, said Xiuhtezcatl. “The biggest challenge we face is shifting human consciousness, not saving the planet. The planet doesn’t need saving. We do.” Xiuhtezcatl Martinez, youth director of Earth Guardians, 14 yrs old.:Punk::Punk:

[Akzle]

“The earth has been here long before us, and it will continue to be here long after we’ve been wiped out, said Xiuhtezcatl. “The biggest challenge we face is shifting human consciousness, not saving the planet. The planet doesn’t need saving. We do.” Xiuhtezcatl Martinez, youth director of Earth Guardians, 14 yrs old.:Punk::Punk:

sounds like a fucken foreigner.

fucken hate these jew kids who pretend to be grownups. (not a fan of the grownups much noither)
the future's theirs and they're playing to the old boys' tune. silly little bastards.
(not this one in particular, but there was some girl who gave a speech and the jewnited nations and there was clapping and third reich shit.) but "youth director" srsly? fark.

[unstuck]

sounds like a fucken foreigner.

fucken hate these jew kids who pretend to be grownups. (not a fan of the grownups much noither)
the future's theirs and they're playing to the old boys' tune. silly little bastards.
(not this one in particular, but there was some girl who gave a speech and the jewnited nations and there was clapping and third reich shit.) but "youth director" srsly? fark.

Get over the title, and look at the attitude of the young fella. He see's that society is heading in a direction that he is not happy with, and instead of sitting at home on the playstation, he is making an effort to effect change in the way's he can. I give him :2thumbsup for that. I mean, there are a lot of people on here who are not happy with the way things are, but would rather cry on the internets about it, and do absolutely nothing to try and change anything.:msn-wink:

[mashman]

Anyone read NZFarmer digital? I believe that someone has written something about a Resource Based Economy in it. Anyone able to sum it up for me please?

[bogan]

Anyone read NZFarmer digital? I believe that someone has written something about a Resource Based Economy in it. Anyone able to sum it up for me please?

Yeh, it's still nothing like what you think an RBE is.

[mashman]

Yeh, it's still nothing like what I think you think an RBE is.

Fixed that for you.

[bogan]

Fixed that for you.

Not my problem you are unable to effectively communicate your ideas and ideals.

[mashman]

Not my problem you are unable to effectively communicate you ideas and ideals.

Achually, yes it is.

[bogan]

Achually, yes it is.

How? What ideas and ideals could a barely literate imbecile have to offer on complex economical matters?

[mashman]

How? What ideas and ideals could a barely literate imbecile have to offer on complex economical matters?

Complex :killingme

[bogan]

Complex :killingme

Well if it were not complex you would not have trouble communicating about it.

[mashman]

Well if it were not complex you would not have trouble communicating about it.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

[bogan]

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

You can't do either. Your explanations vary and contradict themselves, this is why you have to blame other's understanding.

[mashman]

You can't do either. Your explanations vary and contradict themselves, this is why you have to blame other's understanding.

:killingme really? You can't therefore I can't? :killingme. I can, and do. Don't know how many people I've spoken to about it, but the majority support the idea as I explain it. By the way, I take no credit for their understanding, nor for the votes in this poll, that's all down to whatever understanding that individual has of how it would work. Jus passin on what is becoming common knowledge accompanied with several logical outcomes of moving towards a money free world :wari:.

Are you saying that you're not responsible for your own understanding? coz that'd be really funny.

[bogan]

:killingme really? You can't therefore I can't? :killingme. I can, and do. Don't know how many people I've spoken to about it, but the majority support the idea as I explain it. By the way, I take no credit for their understanding, nor for the votes in this poll, that's all down to whatever understanding that individual has of how it would work. Jus passin on what is becoming common knowledge accompanied with several logical outcomes of moving towards a money free world :wari:.

Are you saying that you're not responsible for your own understanding? coz that'd be really funny.

Do it then. Have another go at explaining it and we'll see how much contradicts your previous attempts.

I'm not responsible for the validity of that which I understand. Neither is it my responsibility to understand gibberish.

[mashman]

Do it then. Have another go at explaining it and we'll see how much contradicts your previous attempts.

I'm not responsible for the validity of that which I understand. Neither is it my responsibility to understand gibberish.

No thanks. I have no doubt that someone else will one day. What did I ever set in concrete?

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... thanks for that.

[bogan]

No thanks. I have no doubt that someone else will one day. What did I ever set in concrete?

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... thanks for that.

See, called it, you are not capable of effectively communicating your ideas, so you refuse and still claim they are right. Ironic you don't support the open sharing and critiquing of your ideas given how often you demand this of others.

[mashman]

See, called it, you are not capable of effectively communicating your ideas, so you refuse and still claim they are right. Ironic you don't support the open sharing and critiquing of your ideas given how often you demand this of others.

See, this is why there's no point in me bothering. I explain to you that others have understood what I have explained to them, and you come back with the above. Amusing as it is, it doesn't goad me into anything, but it is amusing.
I have no problem with the critiquing. If I did, I wouldn't have put the idea's up there in the first place, would I? Are you nearly at the tingly bit yet?

[Brian d marge]

See, this is why there's no point in me bothering. I explain to you that others have understood what I have explained to them, and you come back with the above. Amusing as it is, it doesn't goad me into anything, but it is amusing.
I have no problem with the critiquing. If I did, I wouldn't have put the idea's up there in the first place, would I? Are you nearly at the tingly bit yet?
I also have no problem understanding , we differ some aspects such the use of money or the existance of money but follow similar ideals in other areas

Stephen

[bogan]

See, this is why there's no point in me bothering. I explain to you that others have understood what I have explained to them, and you come back with the above. Amusing as it is, it doesn't goad me into anything, but it is amusing.
I have no problem with the critiquing. If I did, I wouldn't have put the idea's up there in the first place, would I? Are you nearly at the tingly bit yet?

Because the above still remains a relevant point. What is your benchmark for determining if people understand you or not? Because it seems to me that benchmark has all to do with whether or not one agrees with you, and little to do with the sharing and discussion of ideas. As evidenced by your claims of my lacking understanding only appearing when we reach a disagreement you cannot resolve.
Well, you aren't putting the ideas up here, so obviously you do have a problem with critiquing. Or maybe you just can't communicate them. Either way, the problem is certainly yours.

[bogan]

I also have no problem understanding , we differ some aspects such the use of money or the existance of money but follow similar ideals in other areas

Stephen

Perhaps you can explain it to me then. What does his idea of an RBE entail?

[Brian d marge]

Perhaps you can explain it to me then. What does his idea of an RBE entail?

Finding 50 cents someone had forgotten in the vending machine ...

In all seriousness, I as in, me ... am not sure what the RBE stand for one assumes Really big event ?

if we can clear that up I could possibly have a crack ......

[bogan]

Finding 50 cents someone had forgotten in the vending machine ...

In all seriousness, I as in, me ... am not sure what the RBE stand for one assumes Really big event ?

if we can clear that up I could possibly have a crack ......

So, you don't understand it either then?

[mashman]

I also have no problem understanding , we differ some aspects such the use of money or the existance of money but follow similar ideals in other areas

Stephen

Different ways of achieving the same things :niceone:. With one clearly better and much more right than the other :shifty:

[mashman]

Because the above still remains a relevant point. What is your benchmark for determining if people understand you or not? Because it seems to me that benchmark has all to do with whether or not one agrees with you, and little to do with the sharing and discussion of ideas. As evidenced by your claims of my lacking understanding only appearing when we reach a disagreement you cannot resolve.
Well, you aren't putting the ideas up here, so obviously you do have a problem with critiquing. Or maybe you just can't communicate them. Either way, the problem is certainly yours.

:killingme... still tinglin eh. cute.

[bogan]

:killingme... still tinglin eh. cute.

Still got nothing then? I'll wait...

[mashman]

Finding 50 cents someone had forgotten in the vending machine ...

In all seriousness, I as in, me ... am not sure what the RBE stand for one assumes Really big event ?

if we can clear that up I could possibly have a crack ......


So, you don't understand it either then?

Read what he wrote again.

[Brian d marge]

So, you don't understand it either then?

The term RBE , i am not familiar with

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Different ways of achieving the same things :niceone:. With one clearly better and much more right than the other :shifty:

Shudup

Stephen

[bogan]

Read what he wrote again.

:killingme and that is how you guage understanding, fuck you're a joke mashy

[Brian d marge]

:killingme and that is how you guage understanding, fuck you're a joke mashy

So are you going to address the question , point I raised in order that I can address your question?

Stephen

[bogan]

So are you going to address the question , point I raised in order that I can address your question?

Stephen

Resource based economy, according to mashy I do not know his position on it so I cannot tell you any more. But he seems to think you know, so maybe you could tell me since he is so unwilling.

[Brian d marge]

Resource based economy, according to mashy I do not know his position on it so I cannot tell you any more. But he seems to think you know, so maybe you could tell me since he is so unwilling.
Thank you
Now have a think on this while I get me thoughts together

Abundance, Efficiency and Sustainability are, very simply, the enemies of profit

Stephen

[bogan]

Thank you
Now have a think on this while I get me thoughts together

Abundance, Efficiency and Sustainability are, very simply, the enemies of profit

Stephen

That depends on the perspective. Abundance of raw material for example, can be good for profit; as the materials cost for a product would be low. On the other hand, abundance leads to competition, which leads to lower profits per 'item'. Similary for sustainability, short term profits come at the expense of long term profits when sustainability is discarded. Efficiency, now that is the enemy of a monopoly, not profit; in fact efficiency goes hand in hand with profit, by driving down production costs.

[mashman]

:killingme and that is how you guage understanding, fuck you're a joke mashy

Not sure what the fuck you're on about... but it seems to have touched a nerve and that tickles me somewhat.

[bogan]

Not sure what the fuck you're on about... but it seems to have touched a nerve and that tickles me somewhat.

Your ability for self delusion is what makes you a joke, that and a complete inability to step up for what you 'believe'. All you are is the deluded whinging of a miserable cunt who is beyond help.

[mashman]

Your ability for self delusion is what makes you a joke, that and a complete inability to step up for what you 'believe'. All you are is the deluded whinging of a miserable cunt who is beyond help.

And again. Fuckin brilliant :killingme. Thanks

[bogan]

And again. Fuckin brilliant :killingme. Thanks

I wonder how many your delusions will drive away before you recognise them as such...

[mashman]

I wonder how many your delusions will drive away before you recognise them as such...

An expected minority.

[BuzzardNZ]

while this thread is mildly entertaining, the Shorai one was so much better.:yawn::yawn::yawn:

[Ocean1]

while this thread is mildly entertaining, the Shorai one was so much better.:yawn::yawn::yawn:

Stand by, the Japanese correspondent is about to enlighten us as to why business owners must avoid abundance, efficiency and sustainability at all costs.

[bogan]

while this thread is mildly entertaining, the Shorai one was so much better.:yawn::yawn::yawn:

Ed did tend to (in the past, he has stopped doing this now) have a bit more spine when it came to 'backing' his opinions; which of course led to a more 'reasoned' discussion. Now there's a sentence I thought I'd never say :bleh:

[Brian d marge]

Stand by, the Japanese correspondent is about to enlighten us as to why business owners must avoid abundance, efficiency and sustainability at all costs.

Well the others may be enlightened but unless ur head comes out of the sand / ur arse you will remain unenlightened

( and when I get a chance I will post )

[mashman]

Autonomous cars, etc. fully utilized in a Total Abundance Paradigm (https://medium.com/@allcome2gether/autonomous-cars-etc-fully-utilized-in-a-total-abundance-paradigm-504277b1001f)

[Brian d marge]

Stand by, the Japanese correspondent is about to enlighten us as to why business owners must avoid abundance, efficiency and sustainability at all costs.

Hold on to ur head ...its going to hurt.....



Abundance, Efficiency and Sustainability are, very simply, the enemies of profit. This scarcity logic also applies to the quality of goods. The idea of creating something that could last, say, a lifetime with little repair, is anathema to the market system, for it reduces consumption rates, which slows growth and creates systemic repercussions (loss of jobs, etc.). The scarcity attribute of the market system is nothing but detrimental for these reasons, not to mention that it doesn't even serve the role of efficient resource preservation, which is often claimed.

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

So to sum up Mashie ...( hope I have this right Mashie )

<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }</style> There are different point of detail but they share roughly similar points:


Land shared between people with no title or ownership , eg Maori and plains Indians


Shared means of production. Resulting in shared benefits of that production. ( a transport company in England where workers are shareholders of said company )



Equality of resource sharing.


common distribution of consumables / goods / commodities ( a fking big woolies )

automation of the manufacturing process i.e. resources into semi-consumables and semi-consumables into consumables

beyond the use of money, credit, barter, exchange, and all forms of interest bearing debt

Removal of false scarcity

A move away from competitive behaviour to a cooperative behaviour - in order to overcome competitive behaviour or also the influence of pure greed,(shaming of persons that opt for a greedy individualistic Ideal ) Other ideals have to move up the priority list or in the common value system an example of this would be a proven example, Linux and the open Source community ( Android, Firefox web-browser ) In this example the Ideal of sharing knowledge in order to share the end result of a Operating system ....Though ....understanding where competition helps to sort out problems or options, and where cooperation is preferred in order to succeed

So, we would have a system of self imposed management of human and natural resources both locally and globally where the following happens:




money is replaced by gratitude

trading is replaced by gifting

ownership is replaced by usership

in a way where everyone’s needs are met. This was the way Hunter gathers lived for thousands of years and have been reported to be the happiest most content people around

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Stand by, the Japanese correspondent is about to enlighten us as to why business owners must avoid abundance, efficiency and sustainability at all costs.

I am STILL waiting for you to explain some of your sweepers ....... Entropy???

oh and the other idiot to explain why low interest rates are a good thing ( at least all he has to do is expand on his statement)

Stephen

[bogan]

Hold on to ur head ...its going to hurt.....



Abundance, Efficiency and Sustainability are, very simply, the enemies of profit. This scarcity logic also applies to the quality of goods. The idea of creating something that could last, say, a lifetime with little repair, is anathema to the market system, for it reduces consumption rates, which slows growth and creates systemic repercussions (loss of jobs, etc.). The scarcity attribute of the market system is nothing but detrimental for these reasons, not to mention that it doesn't even serve the role of efficient resource preservation, which is often claimed.

Stephen


See, you're still thinking in monopolistic terms. We have tonnes of goods that will last a lifetime, which kind of puts a gaping hole in your argument...


So to sum up Mashie ...( hope I have this right Mashie )

<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }</style> There are different point of detail but they share roughly similar points:


Land shared between people with no title or ownership , eg Maori and plains Indians


Shared means of production. Resulting in shared benefits of that production. ( a transport company in England where workers are shareholders of said company )



Equality of resource sharing.


common distribution of consumables / goods / commodities ( a fking big woolies )

automation of the manufacturing process i.e. resources into semi-consumables and semi-consumables into consumables

beyond the use of money, credit, barter, exchange, and all forms of interest bearing debt

Removal of false scarcity

A move away from competitive behaviour to a cooperative behaviour - in order to overcome competitive behaviour or also the influence of pure greed,(shaming of persons that opt for a greedy individualistic Ideal ) Other ideals have to move up the priority list or in the common value system an example of this would be a proven example, Linux and the open Source community ( Android, Firefox web-browser ) In this example the Ideal of sharing knowledge in order to share the end result of a Operating system ....Though ....understanding where competition helps to sort out problems or options, and where cooperation is preferred in order to succeed

So, we would have a system of self imposed management of human and natural resources both locally and globally where the following happens:




money is replaced by gratitude

trading is replaced by gifting

ownership is replaced by usership

in a way where everyone’s needs are met. This was the way Hunter gathers lived for thousands of years and have been reported to be the happiest most content people around

Stephen

Land ownership is one of mashy's wishy washy points. But we'll wait for him to chime in about the accuracy of your understanding...


trading is replaced by gifting

ownership is replaced by usership

These two do not get along. What if I chose to gift things to some people over others, how do the others get their usership then?

[mashman]

So to sum up Mashie ...( hope I have this right Mashie )

Sums a lot of it up quite well... for a capitalist :shifty:

[Akzle]

These two do not get along. What if I chose to gift things to some people over others, how do the others get their usership then?

what do you own, to gift?

are you, god?

[mashman]

trading is replaced by gifting

ownership is replaced by usership

These two do not get along. What if I chose to gift things to some people over others, how do the others get their usership then?

:killingme uber understanding fail. Give it up bogan, you're simply not man enough to deal with your inner cunt.

[Brian d marge]

See, you're still thinking in monopolistic terms. We have tonnes of goods that will last a lifetime, which kind of puts a gaping hole in your argument...



Land ownership is one of mashy's wishy washy points. But we'll wait for him to chime in about the accuracy of your understanding...


trading is replaced by gifting

ownership is replaced by usership

These two do not get along. What if I chose to gift things to some people over others, how do the others get their usership then?

Hopefully your pacemaker would be one of those items ...

Sorry but ...that plastic bowl you bought from the 2 dollar shop WILL last a lifetime .... so I dont need to buy another .....My shoes ...of which I am just about to order ...Will , with repair last a life time ......

Hows that Money velocity .....slowing a bit Unfortunately companies sell shit , and the more shit they sell the more they make .....

I can make a car that will travel millions of kilometres ( I remove the dust from the air going into the engine ) ....but I cant sell many of them , unless I make them fashionable .....

gifting , sharing and usership....what part of that cant u understand ..... I have two beers , u have none ...I give you one beer ....you then use it ....Simple

Why would I give you a beer .... the simple fact you are a human being is good enough

No holes in this argument ....

Stephen

[mashman]

Hopefully your pacemaker would be one of those items ...

Sorry but ...that plastic bowl you bought from the 2 dollar shop WILL last a lifetime .... so I dont need to buy another .....My shoes ...of which I am just about to order ...Will , with repair last a life time ......

Hows that Money velocity .....slowing a bit Unfortunately companies sell shit , and the more shit they sell the more they make .....

I can make a car that will travel millions of kilometres ( I remove the dust from the air going into the engine ) ....but I cant sell many of them , unless I make them fashionable .....

gifting , sharing and usership....what part of that cant u understand ..... I have two beers , u have none ...I give you one beer ....you then use it ....Simple

Why would I give you a beer .... the simple fact you are a human being is good enough

No holes in this argument ....

Stephen

Cannot spread to thee again.

[Brian d marge]

Cannot spread to thee again.
I repected you in the morning . .

[bogan]

Hopefully your pacemaker would be one of those items ...

Sorry but ...that plastic bowl you bought from the 2 dollar shop WILL last a lifetime .... so I dont need to buy another .....My shoes ...of which I am just about to order ...Will , with repair last a life time ......

Hows that Money velocity .....slowing a bit Unfortunately companies sell shit , and the more shit they sell the more they make .....

I can make a car that will travel millions of kilometres ( I remove the dust from the air going into the engine ) ....but I cant sell many of them , unless I make them fashionable .....

gifting , sharing and usership....what part of that cant u understand ..... I have two beers , u have none ...I give you one beer ....you then use it ....Simple

Why would I give you a beer .... the simple fact you are a human being is good enough

No holes in this argument ....

Stephen

Not being able to sell things because they are not fashionable is consumer choice, do you wish to remove that choice?

That is gifting. The bit where they don't get along, is usership, you have two beers but don't want to give me one, but I want to use one. How do gifting and usership not come into conflict?


:killingme uber understanding fail. Give it up bogan, you're simply not man enough to deal with your inner cunt.

And let me guess, you'll not even attempt to correct this misunderstanding either?

[Brian d marge]

Not being able to sell things because they are not fashionable is consumer choice, do you wish to remove that choice?

That is gifting. The bit where they don't get along, is usership, you have two beers but don't want to give me one, but I want to use one. How do gifting and usership not come into conflict?



And let me guess, you'll not even attempt to correct this misunderstanding either?
Ya missed the point
Under the current system that exactly what is being promoted
My beer and u all can fk off

My house is worth some coin
. I worked hard for this so its my right to take equity out and get some bling

Short sighted and greedy selfish thinking that ruins life for all

Under mashies system . . .helo yourself to a beer its my pleasure to be in the position to be able to offer the beer

Next time u use linux you are doing the same thing . , by using and logging any bugs . . .u are helping everyone

[mashman]

And let me guess, you'll not even attempt to correct this misunderstanding either?

By managing my inner cunt I can see past usership. So yes, I'd give you my other beer.

[mashman]

I repected you in the morning . .

For some reason I feel violated.

[bogan]

Ya missed the point
Under the current system that exactly what is being promoted
My beer and u all can fk off

My house is worth some coin
. I worked hard for this so its my right to take equity out and get some bling

Short sighted and greedy selfish thinking that ruins life for all

Under mashies system . . .helo yourself to a beer its my pleasure to be in the position to be able to offer the beer

Next time u use linux you are doing the same thing . , by using and logging any bugs . . .u are helping everyone

Wrong, gifting is entirely possible and often done under the current system. There is nothing to stop an emergent 'R.B.E' except human nature. The same thing that will plunge the world into darkness if a forced RBE fails.


By managing my inner cunt I can see past usership. So yes, I'd give you my other beer.

What if you only had one to give, and Brian wanted one too?

[Brian d marge]

Wrong, gifting is entirely possible and often done under the current system. There is nothing to stop an emergent 'R.B.E' except human nature. The same thing that will plunge the world into darkness if a forced RBE fails.



What if you only had one to give, and Brian wanted one too?
Not the point i was making and you know it

And if we only had one beer between three people we have a distribution and or a supply problem and would probably end up sharing that one beer

[mashman]

What if you only had one to give, and Brian wanted one too?

We'd share. You'd just have to trust me that I wouldn't spit in it first.

[bogan]

Not the point i was making and you know it

And if we only had one beer between three people we have a distribution and or a supply problem and would probably end up sharing that one beer

The point you were trying to make is that the economic model massively changes human nature; it is not a point I agree with. To raise the counterpoint to that I explained that human nature could be changed in a small scale emergent way a lot safer than as forcing a whole society to adopt a new economic model which would collapse said society if it failed. That it has not suggests the economic model is not responsible for human's selfishness.

(you also address not the point I was making an you know it) Fine, you and mashy go be the emergent ones then; but what happens when I have 3 beers and tell you cunts to fuck off. How does your usership not conflict with my refusal to gift in that situation?

[mashman]

You're the guardian of the beer. Entirely your choice.

[bogan]

You're the guardian of the beer. Entirely your choice.

And thus the conflict with the aformentioned usership "ownership is replaced by usership" clearly I still own those beers and you cannot perform any usership upon them; conflict.

[mashman]

And thus the conflict with the aformentioned usership "ownership is replaced by usership" clearly I still own those beers and you cannot perform any usership upon them; conflict.

Not at all. I could murder you then drink the beer without a second thought. I chose to see you as guardian of the beer. Big boy pants.

[Ocean1]

I am STILL waiting for you to explain some of your sweepers ....... Entropy???

oh and the other idiot to explain why low interest rates are a good thing ( at least all he has to do is expand on his statement)

Stephen

There's only so many times I'm prepared to explain shit to a deaf cunt, go look again if you're that desperate for enlightenment.

[bogan]

Not at all. I could murder you then drink the beer without a second thought. I chose to see you as guardian of the beer. Big boy pants.

Pretty sure murder counts as conflict bro :facepalm:

[Brian d marge]

There's only so many times I'm prepared to explain shit to a deaf cunt, go look again if you're that desperate for enlightenment.
Once would be enough . . .ya havent done that even

[Ocean1]

Abundance, Efficiency and Sustainability are, very simply, the enemies of profit. This scarcity logic also applies to the quality of goods. The idea of creating something that could last, say, a lifetime with little repair, is anathema to the market system, for it reduces consumption rates, which slows growth and creates systemic repercussions (loss of jobs, etc.). The scarcity attribute of the market system is nothing but detrimental for these reasons, not to mention that it doesn't even serve the role of efficient resource preservation, which is often claimed.

Stephen


Sure, there's cheap and nasty crap available. Always has been, I suggest you use the same judgement your granddaddy did when buying shit. Sure there's shortages of luxury products. Always has been, go ask your granddaddy why he don't have a Roller. And sure there's shit done to our environment that most of us would rather not happen. Guess how many rules apply to environmental compliance issues there are now that didn't exist even a decade ago.

Done all that? Good, then you'll now understand that you're argument above is full of shit, the current system has produced far more product, far better quality product and damaged the environment less than ever before. Honest. Go ask your granddaddy.

[Ocean1]

Once would be enough . . .ya havent done that even

Look again.

[Brian d marge]

The point you were trying to make is that the economic model massively changes human nature; it is not a point I agree with. To raise the counterpoint to that I explained that human nature could be changed in a small scale emergent way a lot safer than as forcing a whole society to adopt a new economic model which would collapse said society if it failed.
I agree with ya second point but ya first point has happened to nz

Since the 80s nz people have become a lot more . . . Me . .me me
It was the first thing i notice when i went back in the early 90s

You can see it everyday . .driving for example

A direct result of the bullsyt 80s experiment which praised individualism

Ya reap and you sow

[Brian d marge]

Look again.
You have hidden it well . . the powers are strong in you

[bogan]

I agree with ya second point but ya first point has happened to nz

Since the 80s nz people have become a lot more . . . Me . .me me
It was the first thing i notice when i went back in the early 90s

You can see it everyday . .driving for example

A direct result of the bullsyt 80s experiment which praised individualism

Ya reap and you sow

Thank you for conceding that.

There are a myriad of other factors during that timeframe too. Put it this way, what is stopping people like you and mashy and brand getting together, sharing everything, using your RBE inside such a community and only using the financial system for outside transactions?

[Brian d marge]

Thank you for conceding that.

There are a myriad of other factors during that timeframe too. Put it this way, what is stopping people like you and mashy and brand getting together, sharing everything, using your RBE inside such a community and only using the financial system for outside transactions?
Glad to have you aboard

And I always will concede to an articulate point

[mashman]

Pretty sure murder counts as conflict bro :facepalm:

Only if you struggle.

[bogan]

Glad to have you aboard

And I always will concede to an articulate point

Aboard? I left myself off that list because the idea of an RBE you and mashy put forward does not fit with my own. I'll have no problem jumping on board if you guys prove it can work, but personally I'll ensure my means greatly exceeds the needs/wants of an RBE society before helping initiate one, and ensure that the society's means greatly exceeds its needs/wants before joining one.

[bogan]

Only if you struggle.

See, that farmer article said nothing about brutal dictatorships like I knew your RBE was hiding :killingme

[mashman]

See, that farmer article said nothing about brutal dictatorships like I knew your RBE was hiding :killingme

I'm obviously not hiding it.

[Brian d marge]

Aboard? I left myself off that list because the idea of an RBE you and mashy put forward does not fit with my own. I'll have no problem jumping on board if you guys prove it can work, but personally I'll ensure my means greatly exceeds the needs/wants of an RBE society before helping initiate one, and ensure that the society's means greatly exceeds its needs/wants before joining one.
Where mashie and I differ is on the unit of exchange . .I cant see it working in a modern society with out some medium of exchange
Debt free bitcoin or something
He reckons ya dont need

[bogan]

Where mashie and I differ is on the unit of exchange . .I cant see it working in a modern society with out some medium of exchange
Debt free bitcoin or something
He reckons ya dont need

I assume you mean some sort of standardised currency where say 1000 units equates to the average production or use of its citizens and supply is adjusted to match etc? I'm not sure how that would alleviate the me-me-me mentality, the hoarding, and lending would be much reduced, but I fear would just end up as a black market operation.

[Brian d marge]

I assume you mean some sort of standardised currency where say 1000 units equates to the average production or use of its citizens and supply is adjusted to match etc? I'm not sure how that would alleviate the me-me-me mentality, the hoarding, and lending would be much reduced, but I fear would just end up as a black market operation.
Yes

But the me me me thing didnt cone from the movement of currency rather than the ethic behind the movement
If you remember the mantra margret and ronnie and pavlovs dog roger mellie the man on telly formally act party used to spout
Remember gordon gecko
Greed is good
The media is used to promote agendas . , .

[bogan]

Yes

But the me me me thing didnt cone from the movement of currency rather than the ethic behind the movement
If you remember the mantra margret and ronnie and pavlovs dog roger mellie the man on telly formally act party used to spout
Remember gordon gecko
Greed is good
The media is used to promote agendas . , .

That may be, so why the need to change currency at all? If all it takes is a change of mindset, surely the idea of an RBE emerging from within the current economical system is not only feasible, but preferable?

[Ocean1]

I assume you mean some sort of standardised currency where say 1000 units equates to the average production or use of its citizens and supply is adjusted to match etc? I'm not sure how that would alleviate the me-me-me mentality, the hoarding, and lending would be much reduced, but I fear would just end up as a black market operation.

There's only one reason anyone might want to separate income from the production that earns it: they're too fucking lazy to be bothered.

Mushmate's modus idiotic is to remove the token used to measure production in some vague hope that nobody will notice that some pigs ain't all that equal.

BdM's is presumably to distribute it to whoever he thinks deserves it more than those that actually earn it.

Both tragic, farcical attempts to ignore the elephant in the corner: It's the productive that own the results of their efforts, they decide how they'll spend it, nobody else. If they really believed otherwise they'd have no hesitation in disbursing the sum total results of their own productive effort to those they think deserve it more.

Don't hold your breath.

[Brian d marge]

There's only one reason anyone might want to separate income from the production that earns it: they're too fucking lazy to be bothered.

Mushmate's modus idiotic is to remove the token used to measure production in some vague hope that nobody will notice that some pigs ain't all that equal.

BdM's is presumably to distribute it to whoever he thinks deserves it more than those that actually earn it.

Both tragic, farcical attempts to ignore the elephant in the corner: It's the productive that own the results of their efforts, they decide how they'll spend it, nobody else. If they really believed otherwise they'd have no hesitation in disbursing the sum total results of their own productive effort to those they think deserve it more.

Don't hold your breath.
That wasnt parsley you sprinkled on your pizza

Tropic thunder all the way

[bogan]

There's only one reason anyone might want to separate income from the production that earns it: they're too fucking lazy to be bothered.

Mushmate's modus idiotic is to remove the token used to measure production in some vague hope that nobody will notice that some pigs ain't all that equal.

BdM's is presumably to distribute it to whoever he thinks deserves it more than those that actually earn it.

Both tragic, farcical attempts to ignore the elephant in the corner: It's the productive that own the results of their efforts, they decide how they'll spend it, nobody else. If they really believed otherwise they'd have no hesitation in disbursing the sum total results of their own productive effort to those they think deserve it more.

Don't hold your breath.

I'd change that to "There's only one reason anyone might want to separate another person's income from the production that earns it: they're too fucking lazy to be bothered."

I think by the producer giving and sharing their income, we can essentially separate the income from the production that earns it. But that is the only acceptable way to do so. Top down, cascade type effect where by sharing, the net spend is lowered, meaning more superfluous wealth and sharing in turn; it's much like what that Jacque Fresco guy (who actually coined the term R.B.E in this context) proposes.

[mashman]

Where mashie and I differ is on the unit of exchange . .I cant see it working in a modern society with out some medium of exchange
Debt free bitcoin or something


This is why:


I assume you mean some sort of standardised currency where say 1000 units equates to the average production or use of its citizens and supply is adjusted to match etc?

Once such a question is asked, the Why forever becomes a secondary consideration to, can it be afforded.



He reckons ya dont need

The way I look at it. If you can convince people to accept a new currency, why not no currency at all. The benefits speak for themselves and it's a single choice that fixes all sorts of issues that are close to the hearts of the people of New Zealand ;).

[mashman]

Both tragic, farcical attempts to ignore the elephant in the corner: It's the productive that own the results of their efforts, they decide how they'll spend it, nobody else. If they really believed otherwise they'd have no hesitation in disbursing the sum total results of their own productive effort to those they think deserve it more.

Don't hold your breath.

Aye. Be great to ask the productive if they would be happy to give their labour away for free.

[bogan]

The way I look at it. If you can convince people to accept a new currency, why not no currency at all. The benefits speak for themselves and it's a single choice that fixes all sorts of issues that are close to the hearts of the people of New Zealand ;).

Because a new currency would still equate production to spending. No currency would not.

Or to put it another way. Once such a question is asked, the Why forever becomes a secondary consideration to, can it be afforded.

[mashman]

Because a new currency would still equate production to spending. No currency would not.

Or to put it another way. Once such a question is asked, the Why forever becomes a secondary consideration to, can it be afforded.

Right.....

[Brian d marge]

Well what ever could be

Is much better than what has been
And the reason the country isnt performing as well as it could

http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/center/mm/eng/rs_sub_3.htm

Ponzi scheme is nail on head

[bogan]

Well what ever could be

Is much better than what has been
And the reason the country isnt performing as well as it could

http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/center/mm/eng/rs_sub_3.htm

Ponzi scheme is nail on head

Now that is just whimsical thinking. I get that you don't like debt, but so many others (both borrowers and lenders) do. And you've still not answered why a debt free society cannot emerge from the current one (simply by not taking on debt) if that is so much the better?

[Ocean1]

I think by the producer giving and sharing their income, we can essentially separate the income from the production that earns it. But that is the only acceptable way to do so.

It's called charity, and it's possibly the largest single current industry. Changing the rules to make it driven by the various charity's recipients means it's no longer charity, it's theft.


Top down, cascade type effect where by sharing, the net spend is lowered, meaning more superfluous wealth and sharing in turn; it's much like what that Jacque Fresco guy (who actually coined the term R.B.E in this context) proposes.

Careful, you're getting dangerously close to "trickle-down", which will increase the level of airborne spittle around here dramatically.

[Ocean1]

Aye. Be great to ask the productive if they would be happy to give their labour away for free.

They already do. So what's your problem again?

[mashman]

They already do. So what's your problem again?

You've changed your tune. Getting closer, but no cigar.

[Ocean1]

You've changed your tune. Getting closer, but no cigar.

On the contrary, I've often referred to the vast wads of cash and time productive people give away, voluntarily and otherwise.

In fact they're the only possible source of charitable donations.

[mashman]

On the contrary, I've often referred to the vast wads of cash and time productive people give away, voluntarily and otherwise.

In fact they're the only possible source of charitable donations.

Charity :facepalm:... not quite what I had in mind but hey.

[bogan]

It's called charity, and it's possibly the largest single current industry. Changing the rules to make it driven by the various charity's recipients means it's no longer charity, it's theft.



Careful, you're getting dangerously close to "trickle-down", which will increase the level of airborne spittle around here dramatically.

Most indeededly.


Charity :facepalm:... not quite what I had in mind but hey.

We know what you have in mind, murder and theft.

[mashman]

We know what you have in mind, murder and theft.

So, no real difference to the current crowd then. Funny how you accept it from them.

[bogan]

So, no real difference to the current crowd then. Funny how you accept it from them.

Saddam might disagree...

And the NZ govt hasn't stolen, murdered, or even threatened to do those things to me in a hypothetical sense. So pretty different actually.

[mashman]

Saddam might disagree...

And the NZ govt hasn't stolen, murdered, or even threatened to do those things to me in a hypothetical sense. So pretty different actually.

Shades of the same shit.

That's because they have your balls in a vice in reality.

[Brian d marge]

Shades of the same shit.

That's because they have your balls in a vice in reality.
Just do a quick search on how many nasa boffin fellas have died in a short space of time

Or how many people have come a cropper when investigating the bbc kiddy fiddlers

Back on the big stage , . Try moving your country away from the petro dollar and see how far ya get

These boys make the mafia look like boy scouts

[bogan]

Shades of the same shit.

That's because they have your balls in a vice in reality.


Just do a quick search on how many nasa bloffin fellas have died in a short space of time

Or how many people have come a cropper when investigating the bbc kiddy fiddlers

Back on the big stage , . Try moving your country away from the petro dollar and see how far ya get

These boys make the mafia look like boy scouts

Either of you can answer, why is your system unable to be implemented within the current one? Especially if it is just the same shit eh mushy?

[Brian d marge]

Either of you can answer, why is your system unable to be implemented within the current one? Especially if it is just the same shit eh mushy?
Some people are happy in their ivory tower and the status quot is preciously guarded ......

[mashman]

Either of you can answer, why is your system unable to be implemented within the current one? Especially if it is just the same shit eh mushy?

I have maintained that it can. You no listen... and no understand... neither do you try to listen or understand.

[bogan]

Some people are happy in their ivory tower and the status quot is preciously guarded ......

Which is irrelevant if it can be done under that system, they'll just have to live in their ivory tower and suck it.


I have maintained that it can.

Excellent, then why isn't it? Why are there so many complainers about the current system, instead of just getting to it and superseding it? What are you personally doing to supersede it?

[mashman]

Excellent, then why isn't it? Why are there so many complainers about the current system, instead of just getting to it and superseding it?

It isn't, because virtually no one knows about it.
You see them as complainers, I see them as raising valid concerns. Some are getting to it.

[bogan]

It isn't, because virtually no one knows about it.
You see them as complainers, I see them as raising valid concerns. Some are getting to it.

Well what is the tipping point number and why?

I can't see why 100 people don't just pool their resources and live money free; even a group of 10 could do a very successful proof of concept pilot program; if it were indeed possible.

Who is getting to it and how?

[mashman]

Well what is the tipping point number and why?

I can't see why 100 people don't just pool their resources and live money free; even a group of 10 could do a very successful proof of concept pilot program; if it were indeed possible.

Who is getting to it and how?

Tipping point number?

Dunno. Am sure some are doing just that.

Whoever decides to in what ever way they can.

[bogan]

Tipping point number?

Dunno. Am sure some are doing just that.

Whoever decides to in what ever way they can.

So when you said, it isn't because nobody knows about it; then some are doing just that... do you have any examples?

I mean example, I want to see how viable it is. That is how you would convert me. Why are you not one of the ones who is getting to it?

[mashman]

So when you said, it isn't because nobody knows about it; then some are doing just that... do you have any examples?

I mean example, I want to see how viable it is. That is how you would convert me.

I didn't say nobody... examples: Ubuntu. Money Free Party (multiple countries). TVP. Zeitgeist. Money Free Charter... and likely lots of other groups.

It is viable. I'm not trying to convert you :facepalm:.

[mashman]

"The $240 billion net income in 2012 of the richest 100 billionaires would be enough to make extreme poverty history four times over, according Oxfam's report 'The cost of inequality: how wealth and income extremes hurt us all." (https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four)

So you need $60 billion per year to eradicate extreme poverty.

"Although development aid rose in 2013 to the highest level ever recorded, a trend of a falling share of aid going to the neediest sub-Saharan African countries continued." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign_aid_received)

Total aid given to countries around the world, $97 billion and rising.

Question: Why do we still have extreme poverty when there's 50% more aid given than is required?

[Ocean1]

"The $240 billion net income in 2012 of the richest 100 billionaires would be enough to make extreme poverty history four times over, according Oxfam's report 'The cost of inequality: how wealth and income extremes hurt us all." (https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2013-01-19/annual-income-richest-100-people-enough-end-global-poverty-four)

So you need $60 billion per year to eradicate extreme poverty.

"Although development aid rose in 2013 to the highest level ever recorded, a trend of a falling share of aid going to the neediest sub-Saharan African countries continued." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign_aid_received)

Total aid given to countries around the world, $97 billion and rising.

Question: Why do we still have extreme poverty when there's 50% more aid given than is required?

Because the definition of poverty changes with the level of income. You could make them all millionaires and the official number of poor wouldn't change a jot.

[mashman]

Because the definition of poverty changes with the level of income. You could make them all millionaires and the official number of poor wouldn't change a jot.

Of course it would, especially as they're all millionaires and will be able to afford anything that they want.

[bogan]

I didn't say nobody... examples: Ubuntu. Money Free Party (multiple countries). TVP. Zeitgeist. Money Free Charter... and likely lots of other groups.

It is viable. I'm not trying to convert you :facepalm:.

Ubuntu, that's software, not a way of life.

Money Free Party is a political movement, again not people actually living as they would under a money free system.

TVP is still in planning stages for such a society, and I don't think they have implemented on even in small scale yet; but I could be wrong as they do seem the furthest along.

Zeitgeist is pretty much the same as TVP.

Money Free Charter is pretty much the same as Money Free Party.

All of those things are pushing ideas and ideals, ie, this could work but we need more people/time/technology. What I want to see examples of are sub-society's in which money is not a thing, of course it must still be a thing to interact with society as a whole, but within the sub society they can share everything, have anything (including requisitions from outside), simply by living happily and exporting their production. If it is both possible, and beneficial as you say, why is it not done?

I mean example to see how viable it is; show me, don't just tell me. That is how you would convert me, and many others (see aforementioned reasons for why converts are needed). And why are you not one of the ones who is getting to it? why simply spread the ideas and ideal when you have a chance to live them?

[bogan]

Because the definition of poverty changes with the level of income. You could make them all millionaires and the official number of poor wouldn't change a jot.

Extreme poverty could be done away with though.

But I'm also picking that article didn't take into account supply/demand and subsequent rising prices of aid.

[Ocean1]

Of course it would, especially as they're all millionaires and will be able to afford anything that they want.

No, it wouldn't. The poverty industry measures poverty as the percentage of population with income less than 60% of median income.

Which is bullshit of course, under that definition you could double everyone's net worth and not change poverty. The only way to reduce relative poverty is to reduce "income inequality", the “solution” is to tax people more and hand out more welfare. Classic socialism.

The problem they've got is that both relative AND absolute poverty has taken a very large and sustained drop in the last few decades, so they have to keep re-inventing poverty definitions to make their spiel even vaguely relevant.

311843

Old socialist bullshit is getting old.

[Ocean1]

Extreme poverty could be done away with though.

Probably, but not by increasing aid, you have to teach them how to fish.

[mashman]

Ubuntu, that's software, not a way of life.

Money Free Party is a political movement, again not people actually living as they would under a money free system.

TVP is still in planning stages for such a society, and I don't think they have implemented on even in small scale yet; but I could be wrong as they do seem the furthest along.

Zeitgeist is pretty much the same as TVP.

Money Free Charter is pretty much the same as Money Free Party.

All of those things are pushing ideas and ideals, ie, this could work but we need more people/time/technology. What I want to see examples of are sub-society's in which money is not a thing, of course it must still be a thing to interact with society as a whole, but within the sub society they can share everything, have anything (including requisitions from outside), simply by living happily and exporting their production. If it is both possible, and beneficial as you say, why is it not done?

I mean example to see how viable it is; show me, don't just tell me. That is how you would convert me, and many others (see aforementioned reasons for why converts are needed). And why are you not one of the ones who is getting to it? why simply spread the ideas and ideal when you have a chance to live them?

They're all doing something towards the same goal i.e. to live in an R.B.E. If they make it to Kibbutz level, then great. If they decide to go all the way to the whitehouse, even better.

Nope, I see you're still not wearing your big boy pants and need an example in order to believe it possible... yet if everyone listened to you, there'd never be any examples as we'd all be too busy looking for examples. You need big boy pants.

[bogan]

They're all doing something towards the same goal i.e. to live in an R.B.E. If they make it to Kibbutz level, then great. If they decide to go all the way to the whitehouse, even better.

Nope, I see you're still not wearing your big boy pants and need an example in order to believe it possible... yet if everyone listened to you, there'd never be any examples as we'd all be too busy looking for examples. You need big boy pants.

Kibbutz level, where are those examples then?

No, people like you are the reason there are no examples, too busy whining about a problem and tellings others to be the solution instead of being it yourself. I'll be the example I believe can work, why won't you?

[mashman]

No, it wouldn't. The poverty industry measures poverty as the percentage of population with income less than 60% of median income.

Which is bullshit of course, under that definition you could double everyone's net worth and not change poverty. The only way to reduce relative poverty is to reduce "income inequality", the “solution” is to tax people more and hand out more welfare. Classic socialism.

The problem they've got is that both relative AND absolute poverty has taken a very large and sustained drop in the last few decades, so they have to keep re-inventing poverty definitions to make their spiel even vaguely relevant.

Old socialist bullshit is getting old.

Yes, that's the poverty industry.

Lucky I'm not a socialist then.

No. The problem they've got is that the cost of living is rising faster than there is money available for those who need it. There are loads of reports around about it... you'd think people might make the rather obvious connection eh... but nah.

[mashman]

No, people like you are the reason there are no examples, too busy whining about a problem and tellings others to be the solution instead of being it yourself. I'll be the example I believe can work, why won't you?

I'm not the one insisting that it won't work.