Police getting tougher on speed tolerance

[Ascott]

.... or .5 more ...

Yes exactly, I unfortunately, realised I had not included that too late, but same thing physics, be fucked, if there is nothing to hit it won't happen!

[FJRider]

Did you ever wonder why nobody thanks you for it?

Nobody likes being told they're doing it wrong. Even if their life might depend on it some day.


The famous last words ... "I'm a good rider ... "

[rastuscat]

I'm glad the "Physics" stack up.


However ... it seems nothing (in regard to this towns speed limit of 50km/hr) has changed.


Perhaps ... the "Physics" on it's own as an argument ... simply isn't as important as you two seem to think it is.

As was stated ... a by-pass was/is planned. Problem solved ... maybe.


Until then ... we wait.


Has the plans and/or groundwork started yet .. ?? ... I haven't been up that way for a while.

No. Plans get drawn, the talk gets talked, everyone agrees it's a good idea. It's been talked about for 20 years or more.

But until the money is made available, nothing happens. The people get scratchy, the local (National) MP runs petitions, agencies get complaints.

But until priorities change, possibly with a change of government, the status quo remains.

[FJRider]

... But until priorities change, possibly with a change of government, the status quo remains.

I had a look on Google maps of the area. It looks like somebody built a Golf Course in the middle of the "better" bypass route.

Yep ... priorities ... ;)

[onearmedbandit]

Perhaps ... the "Physics" on it's own as an argument ... simply isn't as important as you two seem to think it is.



Show me where I stated that physics on its own is ah argument for dropping the speed limit. Once again you make far too many assumptions. Read my posts again, you’ll see I state I’m opposed to dropping speed limits.

[rastuscat]

I had a look on Google maps of the area. It looks like somebody built a Golf Course in the middle of the "better" bypass route.

Yep ... priorities ... ;)

That would be the Pegasus Golf Course. All part of the master plan.

[neels]

That would be the Pegasus Golf Course. All part of the master plan.
Makes sense that the bypass would start after Pegasus, so the residents thereof can also avoid having to drag their arses all the way through Woodend to get to the city.

It would almost be like a proper motorway all the way to Christchurch when built.

352157

Meanwhile, demand exceeds supply for signage 'changing' speed limits in Auckland, although I reckon I can correctly guess the percentage of 'changes' that are an increase....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/300785069/auckland-speed-limit-signs-whited-out-leaving-drivers-stumped


As part of the rollout of the programme, Auckland Transport proposed new permanent speed limits on about 1646 roads around Tāmaki Makaurau.

[FJRider]

Show me where I stated that physics on its own is ah argument for dropping the speed limit. Once again you make far too many assumptions. Read my posts again, you’ll see I state I’m opposed to dropping speed limits.

YOU used it as a logical argumentative reason why the speed limit in that area should be lowered.


Why else would you have stated it ... ??


But ... So ... you do not believe Physics IS a valid argument on it's own in this case.



Gotcha ... :niceone:

[onearmedbandit]

YOU used it as a logical argumentative reason why the speed limit in that area should be lowered.


Why else would you have stated it ... ??


But ... So ... you do not believe Physics IS a valid argument on it's own in this case.



Gotcha ... :niceone:

Yeah you really got me…

[pete376403]

Meanwhile, demand exceeds supply for signage 'changing' speed limits in Auckland, although I reckon I can correctly guess the percentage of 'changes' that are an increase....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/300785069/auckland-speed-limit-signs-whited-out-leaving-drivers-stumped

If the speed limit signs are all masked, would that be a valid challenge to a speeding ticket ? How can you exceed the posted limit if the limit is not posted?

[Moi]

If the speed limit signs are all masked, would that be a valid challenge to a speeding ticket ? How can you exceed the posted limit if the limit is not posted?

The point that is being left out of some 'reporting' is that only the new signs are masked, the existing signs are still visible and displaying a speed limit...

As can be seen in this report: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/01/east-auckland-motorists-confused-after-dozens-of-speed-limit-signs-installed-with-speed-limits-covered-up.html

[rambaldi]

The point that is being left out of some 'reporting' is that only the new signs are masked, the existing signs are still visible and displaying a speed limit...

As can be seen in this report: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/01/east-auckland-motorists-confused-after-dozens-of-speed-limit-signs-installed-with-speed-limits-covered-up.html

I have driven through that area relatively recently. As some one only passingly familiar with the area it was a right mess and extends for fucking yonks. The old signs might still be out, but it really didn't feel like that given how many signs I saw covered up. I guess with the speed change they are putting many more in, to keep people reminded that their previous default speeds are no longer appropriate. There were so many covered over signs, we actually initially thought it was a protest against the changed speeds as they were just fuckin everywhere.

[Reckless]

I live in this area and it is damn confusing especially where there are speed cameras.
I personally think it's getting to the point of stupid and most will ignore the new signs especially on the main arterials around here.
I can see people passing on the left to get past the guy doing the new limit in the right lane that used to be 80k.
Like that 90k "safer speed zone" to the Coromandel where even granny cruises at 100k and there is a line of cars and trucks stuck behind the one car doing 90k because of all the new double yellow lines. Plus everyone is too scared to pass on the passing lanes because that's where Mr 90k goes a bit faster and where the revenue collectors gather.

I totally agree with slowing people down around country schools etc but this blanket dumbing down is bloody stupid. While ignoring cellphones, distraction, skills and the very sad state of the roads.
Had a race mate that possibly wrote his ZX14 off on a pothole last weekend 10-15k bike down the toilet :facepalm: No he didn't crash the pothole broke the bike.
I think we are well past the point where "drive to the conditions" (even for Mr 90k) is no longer an excuse to hide behind the roads are so bad.
I reckon the insurance companies should take a case like Pauls ZX14 above and set a legal president (for future cases) and make NZTA pay.

[MarkH]

I agree with both sides: Slowing traffic will make any accidents less severe and that will mean less deaths. But lowering the speed limit for many tens of kilometres (Nelson to Blenheim, Taupo to Napier, North of Auckland, etc) makes a significant difference to travel times which affects people that need to get places to get things done.
We could have a 25kph speed limit on every road in NZ and lower the road toll to near zero, but we have to consider the practicalities - we will always have to compromise between safety and other practicalities.

In Hamilton I like that there are many shared paths and I especially like the various underpasses for busy roads - I suspect that these have saved quite a few lives. It is good to see a solution where the traffic can move reasonably fast while the pedestrians and cyclists are not being killed. Just lowering the speed limits all over the place seems like such a cop-out where they go with the crudest and cheapest method to reduce risk. Lowering speed limits can also increase risk in some ways, like having more complacent pedestrians which makes them more vulnerable to drivers not obeying the lower limits.

[pete376403]

Lower speed limits will require massive increase in enforcement - either more police and / or more speed cameras - otherwise who is going to take any notice (any more than they do now)

[jellywrestler]

Slowing traffic will make any accidents less severe and that will mean less deaths. But lowering the speed limit for many tens of kilometres (Nelson to Blenheim, Taupo to Napier, North of Auckland, etc) makes a significant difference to travel times which affects people that need to get places to get things done.
. so head on now goes from a theoretical 200km's and hour to 180 km's an hour, Yeah that sounds like it's the answer.
Travel times won't be significantly altered in reality much at all, but concentration levels will fall in many cases increasing accidents as people are driving around in a daze. The nelson to blenheim one is a fuck up, as trucks have in recent years.decades had a 90 limit now you cannot get past one, driving watching a truck is hypnotic, at least when you could pass them you could see off into the distance and see shit earlier and react.
I've done a lot of miles recently and find myself spending too much time checking my speedo cause of all of the fluctuating limits.

[Reckless]

Further to Spydas comment you also don't get to see that damn pothole coming at you from under the truck till it stuffs your rim the tyre blows and you have try and get safely stopped.

Talking about safety and inattention to the road.
Not so much a bikers as we generally pic our line in advance and watch the tarmac but even we can get caught with this one.
I wonder if anyone has done a calculation on how long you take your eyes off where you should be looking to watch that pothole go under your wheel track to avoid it.
Instead of maintaining your view up the road where it should be. There must be a huge blank in the time when Joe Bloggs car driver should be looking for oncoming Issues and is ensuring he/she doesn't wreck the car in the crater trying to be avoided.

[roogazza]

Further to Spydas comment you also don't get to see that damn pothole coming at you from under the truck till it stuffs your rim the tyre blows and you have try and get safely stopped

Yes, Reckless, one of my pet hates,not being able to see the road ahead !!!!!

I make it a point to pass evrything in front, I like a clear road !
(hey, I've survived 58 years of riding by using my rules ! Ain't stopping now !!! ) :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

If the speed limit signs are all masked, would that be a valid challenge to a speeding ticket ? How can you exceed the posted limit if the limit is not posted?

Usually "Masked" speed limit signs mean that a different (often Temporary) speed limit is in place.


If you miss that temporary speed limit change ... you have no "Valid" challenge.

[rastuscat]

Usually "Masked" speed limit signs mean that a different (often Temporary) speed limit is in place.


If you miss that temporary speed limit change ... you have no "Valid" challenge.

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.

[pete376403]

Further to Spydas comment you also don't get to see that damn pothole coming at you from under the truck till it stuffs your rim the tyre blows and you have try and get safely stopped.

Talking about safety and inattention to the road.
Not so much a bikers as we generally pic our line in advance and watch the tarmac but even we can get caught with this one.
I wonder if anyone has done a calculation on how long you take your eyes off where you should be looking to watch that pothole go under your wheel track to avoid it.
Instead of maintaining your view up the road where it should be. There must be a huge blank in the time when Joe Bloggs car driver should be looking for oncoming Issues and is ensuring he/she doesn't wreck the car in the crater trying to be avoided.

Shifting the eyes focus between the speedo a few hundred mm away and the road ahead 10 or more metres away takes time. The reason why mirrors mounted near the front of the front mudguards of cars, as used to be the norm for Japanese cars back in the 70s, while appallingly ugly, were better than door mounted mirrors - less eye focus change and eye movement required. Or if you like, heads-up displays in fighter aircraft - keeping eyes on the target while monitoring the instruments.

[onearmedbandit]

as used to be the norm for Japanese cars back in the 70s,

That was more to do with limiting the overall width of the car than anything else, the benefit of not having to turn your head so much was just a bonus.

[pete376403]

That was more to do with limiting the overall width of the car than anything else, the benefit of not having to turn your head so much was just a bonus.

Maybe. The 1700 GTO Mitsi* my mum had was a JDM car and the mirrors wouldn't have been any narrower than the door mirrors of the later 2000 GTOs

*story we were told was that they were supposed to be sent to South Africa but ended up here and Todds sold them. Fun little car, would be worth something now.

[onearmedbandit]

The first answer paraphrases an article from The Japan Times. Unfortunately the link to the actual piece is dead.

https://www.quora.com/Why-were-the-placement-of-side-view-mirrors-in-older-Japanese-cars-so-far-up-the-hood

Safety could be defined by either placing them there for width and/or visibility reasons. Based off my own dealings with Japanese imported vehicles my understanding was to do with the width.

[FJRider]

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.

Who are the "People" laughing ... when drivers get stopped for exceeding the posted (temporary or otherwise) speed limit ... ??

Not usually the ones that were stopped.



But it's hard to see the funny side with those flashing red and blues in your mirror ... :facepalm:


The only time I laughed ... was when they should have been parked a half hour back up the road ... but then it wouldn't be funny ... :pinch:


For me as least ... :innocent:

[FJRider]

Shifting the eyes focus between the speedo a few hundred mm away and the road ahead 10 or more metres away takes time.

No ... a good driver/rider should have taken time to get familiar with being able to know what speed they are going ... simply by the sound of the engine rev's, and by knowing what gear they're in at those revs. In or on whatever vehicle they are operating at the time.


Changing your focus on where you are looking ... will just slow you down ... and is dangerous.


An old Italian saying ... whats behind is not important. Slow down when you hear the sirens ... and can see the flashing lights beside you.


The real important stuff is in the 100 meters in front of you. stuff like ... where the road goes.


If you are paranoid enough about your speed to be looking around as you describe ... it might be safer just to keep under the speed limit.

[pete376403]

No ... a good driver/rider should have taken time to get familiar with being able to know what speed they are going ... simply by the sound of the engine rev's, and by knowing what gear they're in at those revs. In or on whatever vehicle they are operating at the time..


A good driver... a bit of a rarity these days

[FJRider]

A good driver... a bit of a rarity these days

The only Traffic Offense Notices I ever got ... were "Exceeding the posted speed limit.

In other words ... under 10 km/hr over the limit.


I must be a "Rarity" then ... :killingme


Practice the "Game" of guessing your speed as you ride or drive. Just using the rev counter. Mark the speed (in top gear) of the speed limit for your vehicle. Learn that sound at that speed. It is easier than you think.

And you can see the important stuff in your mirrors (ie:flashing red and blues) ... using just the corner of your eyes.

[onearmedbandit]

Don't even need to know the revs to be fair, in my car I can feel the difference through visual referencing between 50 and 55kmh for example. On another note, having just come back from holiday in Golden Bay and Kaiteriteri when you go from 80kmh zones to 100kmh, 100 all of a sudden feels a lot faster than you realise.

[Gremlin]

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.
One funny thing I've seen was the speed sign to enter a higher speed zone was larger than the sign for entering the lower speed zone (on the other side of the pole)... so when going faster it was a smaller sign to observe... didn't quite make sense to me, but then, sense rarely comes into the equation...

[rastuscat]

One funny thing I've seen was the speed sign to enter a higher speed zone was larger than the sign for entering the lower speed zone (on the other side of the pole)... so when going faster it was a smaller sign to observe... didn't quite make sense to me, but then, sense rarely comes into the equation...

It's the TCD, the Traffic Control Devices Rule. Signs for lower speeds are smaller than signs for higher speeds.

Unfortunately, this doesn't really allow for transitions. But in reality, you could place a flashing light with a siren on most signs and people wouldn't see them.

[nerrrd]

It's early days I guess, but the newly lowered 30km speed limit near me is having no impact on the traffic.

To the point where, when the local contractors were 're-sealing' a side street (ie scatter a whole lot of pea gravel and hope), they put up temporary reduced speed 30km signs at the start and 50km signs at the end - all INSIDE the newly reduced 30km area.

Maybe when the local school goes back people will start paying a bit more attention.

[Berries]

One funny thing I've seen was the speed sign to enter a higher speed zone was larger than the sign for entering the lower speed zone (on the other side of the pole)... so when going faster it was a smaller sign to observe... didn't quite make sense to me, but then, sense rarely comes into the equation...


It's the TCD, the Traffic Control Devices Rule. Signs for lower speeds are smaller than signs for higher speeds.
The faster you go, the bigger the mess.

If you are in a 100km/h zone going into a 50 it should be a big sign to get you to notice it. If you are in a 50 going into a 100 it can be a smaller sign because you should be travelling slower. Sign sizes are meant to be based on approach speeds, not the speed on the sign.

[FJRider]

It's the TCD, the Traffic Control Devices Rule. Signs for lower speeds are smaller than signs for higher speeds.

Unfortunately, this doesn't really allow for transitions. But in reality, you could place a flashing light with a siren on most signs and people wouldn't see them.

Reality ... A full size cardboard cutout of a Police car will be seen ... :whistle:


Go figure ... ;)

[jellywrestler]

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.

you may think that but a lot just don't want tickets so want to see them all.

[Ntoxcated]

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.

And then there is the tendency to prioritise the higher speed. You maintain the higher speed right up to the lower speed sign and then start slowing down. Conversely, as soon as you can see the higher speed limit sign, you start accelerating so as to be up to speed when you get there :innocent:

[MarkH]

Ain't it funny that people almost always see the signs that allow them to go faster, but often fail to see the ones that require them to go slower.

I got a ticket because of that. I was on a trip and completely missed a sign on the open road that dropped the speed limit from 100 to 80. It didn't help that the part that was 80 was wider, straighter and it better condition than the part that was 100. Now I get an audio reminder when approaching a drop in speed limit as well as a reminder of what the speed limit is when being told about the detection of K or Ka band radar. I'll hear something like "Ka front, limit 80" and I'll know that there is a cop ahead and that the current speed limit is 80kph, so I'll check my speed and of course it is always within the speed limit because I'm a freakin' angel that would never violate any of our countries laws!

[MarkH]

Now I get an audio reminder when approaching a drop in speed limit as well as a reminder of what the speed limit is when being told about the detection of K or Ka band radar. I'll hear something like "Ka front, limit 80" and I'll know that there is a cop ahead and that the current speed limit is 80kph

For those interested:
This isn't a cheap setup, it is a combination of the Valentine One Generation 2 radar detector (I had to use my Shipito address to buy one in the US and send it to a US address and then forward it on to NZ from there) and the JBV1 app (only available on Android) created by johnboy00 on the radar detector forums. It is the JBV1 app that tells me about the upcoming drop in speed limit as well as monitoring the V1G2 radar detector through BT and letting me know about threats. The JBV1 app is also able to do some clever stuff, like I have it set to push out some settings changes to the V1G2 so that under 60kph it puts the detector into advanced logic mode and above 60kph it puts the detector into 'all bogeys' mode. The V1G2 detector doesn't have built in GPS, so the JBV1 app adds in GPS features by using the phone GPS to give location aware lock-outs so you don't hear alerts when you get the same signal in the same place every time. The radar detector doesn't know what the speed limit is, so it is the JBV1 app that has the speed limits map and GPS location that lets it tell me what the speed limit is when the radar detectors picks up police radar.

For radar detectors, there are only about 3 radar detectors available today that have directional arrows and very high performance - Uniden R7, Valentine One Gen 2 and the impressive but expensive Escort Redline 360c. Of these the Valentine One G2 when combined with the JBV1 is the best you can get, without the JBV1 app the other 2 are arguably better, especially since they each have a built in GPS to provide features that the V1G2 can't give you without pairing it with the JBV1 app. The R7 with custom firmware created by a guy in Wellington is a great stand alone detector. The Escort Redline 360C with dual front detector horns and single rear horn can advise you about the cop up ahead over the hill and over a kilometre away, without the hill it can let you know about the cop that is 4km away. I sold my 360C though and kept my V1G2, because with the app it beats everything else.

And yes, I have done a bit of research into radar detectors.

[Reckless]

For those interested:

And yes, I have done a bit of research into radar detectors.

Thanks Buddy That research would have some time input into it :)
Awesome info much appreciated :yes: :Punk:

[rastuscat]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sponsored-stories/small-driving-change-will-save-lives/LF4TCGFZDRA6JAMB77AG63H36M/

[Jazzed]

.... is how with the road to 0 they keep lowering speed limits for pedestrian safety yet fail to address the amount of utes with aftermarket steel bumpers/nudgebars.

The anniversary jeep wrangler couldn't be imported into NZ as it had steel bumpers. Same for all these utes, they were imported with plastic bumpers - yet they can get warrants after they swap the plastic for steel???
It also seems like at least half the utes around here have ARB bars on that lift the front to make it easier to go over obstacles, yet it also helps for going over small children that they dont see.

Then finally is the trendy look of your tyres sticking out wider than your fenders which these guys think make their utes look like tonka toys... you cant get a warrant like that so why dont they get pulled over??

None of the above points have been addressed for pedestrian safety and the road to 0.

[Navy Boy]

Interesting how in the conclusions it states that NZ road safety is poor compared to many other countries - Then very little more is made of this. Talk about a throwaway line... :(

Also when somone says that speed is factor is 70% of accidents then I start to become a little suspicious. Statistics don't make a convincing argument and reliance on them often indicates a flawed argument - In other words one has use them to prop up and otherwise unconvincing case. I could be doing 20Km/hr when I hit a stationary object - Speed will still then be considered a factor.

We all get that around schools and other areas where you have a dispropotionatly high number of vulnerable road users then your speed, and general driving/riding, needs to take account of this. However saying that the whole 'Speed kills' campaign is working when the road toll suggests otherwise seems to be more than a little patronising to me.

Do I slow down and keep my eyes even more peeled than normal when riding past a school during school knock-off times? Absolutlely. However please don't patronise me, especially when this is a sponsored article whose interests are trying to tell the world how well their initiative is working.

You're better than this Rastus - Please stick to non-biased argument and yes, I did do science at school so please don't start the 'Physics don't lie piece' :bleh:

[roogazza]

Thanks Buddy That research would have some time input into it :)
Awesome info much appreciated :yes: :Punk:

Agree Reckless, great info. I passed Rep to MarkH....... :msn-wink:

[FJRider]

Interesting how in the conclusions it states that NZ road safety is poor compared to many other countries - Then very little more is made of this. Talk about a throwaway line... :(

Also when somone says that speed is factor is 70% of accidents then I start to become a little suspicious. Statistics don't make a convincing argument and reliance on them often indicates a flawed argument - In other words one has use them to prop up and otherwise unconvincing case. I could be doing 20Km/hr when I hit a stationary object - Speed will still then be considered a factor.

We all get that around schools and other areas where you have a dispropotionatly high number of vulnerable road users then your speed, and general driving/riding, needs to take account of this. However saying that the whole 'Speed kills' campaign is working when the road toll suggests otherwise seems to be more than a little patronising to me.

Do I slow down and keep my eyes even more peeled than normal when riding past a school during school knock-off times? Absolutlely. However please don't patronise me, especially when this is a sponsored article whose interests are trying to tell the world how well their initiative is working.

You're better than this Rastus - Please stick to non-biased argument and yes, I did do science at school so please don't start the 'Physics don't lie piece' :bleh:


The attitude of far too many regarding speed ... is the real issue. Speed in itself is not the issue ... but circumstance is. 100 km/hr on a good road with light and/or well spaced vehicles is seldom an issue. But when vehicle spacing decreases and/or or rain starts the risk issue increases. Even in the 40 km/hr zones (which are becoming more and more common nowadays) in light traffic and good weather ... only the idiots (and there are plenty of them) risk an accident. But ... add times of high traffic numbers and a cycle lane (with minimal separation to road traffic) next to the road ... even 40 km/hr may be too fast if somebody makes a simple error in judgement. If and/or when incidents do occur ... the old "I was only doing the speed limit" gets heard. Funnily enough ... they probably WERE at the speed limit. Even if that is the case ... does that then absolve themselves from prosecution for another (dangerous driving/following too closely charge) ... ???? I hope not. Maybe ... but probably just too hard to win the case in Court though.

Perhaps ... if in such circumstances ... more people should be charged with other than just a speed related offense notice ... more people might get the idea in their head that speed in itself in not the only thing that will result in an infringement notice.

As far as Traffic Enforcement goes though ... Speed is easy to enforce. The easiest tool to use in traffic enforcement to gain a conviction. They don't even need to stop your vehicle. Just arguing with the Judge or paying the fine ... are your only options.

Traffic police seem to ignore bumper to bumper 100 km/hr traffic in heavy rain ... but one single vehicle on a deserted highway (in good weather) caught at 110 km/hr gets their attention. Is that really road safety policing .. ??

[FJRider]

Further grist to the mill

The American version to promote Road safety.

Is this totally UNRELATED to NZ Road Traffic issues ... or just a different point of view .. ??

https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/speeding

Please note the heading is Risky driving and speeding ... as opposed to just DANGEROUS driving.

Studies (apparently) indicate that no less than one third of fatal crashes are linked to excessive speed. For more than two decades ... speeding has been involved in approximately one third of all motor vehicle fatalities. I know speed also affects safety even when driving at the speed limit ... like too fast for road conditions (such times as during bad weather or when a road is under repair ... and/or even in an area at night that isn't well lit) which actually IS a Road Traffic Offense.

If only ONE THIRD of fatal crashes (in the US) can be linked to excessive speed ... how does/would it differ with NZ statistics in comparison ... ?? And why is speed being pushed here as the main issue in road safety. A large number of speed related deaths are single vehicle accidents ... with the end result of the driver (or passengers) death(s). What would be the issues with the OTHER two thirds of fatal motor vehicle accidents in this article .. ??

And do the issues in that other two thirds ... feature in NZ statistics .. ??

Could not those "other" two thirds of issues being enforced more (here in NZ)... save lives here in NZ too ... ??

[jellywrestler]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sponsored-stories/small-driving-change-will-save-lives/LF4TCGFZDRA6JAMB77AG63H36M/

the true road to zero plan?

[Berries]

the true road to zero plan?
Unfortunately that is the only tool in a very bare looking tool box. As long as alcohol and males exist you can forget about Road to Zero.

I suspect the millions they were going to spend on median barrier on a tiny proportion of the network to stop drunks smearing themselves across the front of a Freightliner is about to be diverted for cyclone recovery which is a much better idea.

[rastuscat]

You're better than this Rastus


I refute that statement.

[rastuscat]

Unfortunately that is the only tool in a very bare looking tool box. As long as alcohol and males exist you can forget about Road to Zero.

I suspect the millions they were going to spend on median barrier on a tiny proportion of the network to stop drunks smearing themselves across the front of a Freightliner is about to be diverted for cyclone recovery which is a much better idea.

The engineering solution is gold plated, long term and ultra expensive. We might get there one day, but that day is a very long way off.

Most deaths are caused by human error, or extreme behaviour. It's hard to educate, engineer or enforce for those things, as nobody ever thinks they are the problem, so nobody ever thinks they need to change.

[MarkH]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sponsored-stories/small-driving-change-will-save-lives/LF4TCGFZDRA6JAMB77AG63H36M/

There is definitely some truth to that. But those 30kph speed limits are still applicable at times when there is no one else around, so no pedestrians or cyclists to protect. The speed limit is a blunt instrument to use for solving the problem. I have less problem with a 30kph limit in Auckland than an 80kph limit on major roads though.

I remember reading about the Taupo to Napier highway with some people that needed to drive along it daily very unhappy about the plans to lower the speed limit to 80kph.
The Taupo to Napier Highway is long and there is a very noticeable amount of extra time to travel along it if you follow the 80kph speed limit instead of 100kph. If along that length there is 100km worth that can be driven at the speed limit then at 100kph it would take an hour for that part and at 80kph it would take 1 hour & 15 minutes. Waka Kotahi claimed that because the average speed on a journey along that road was 83kph (I'm going purely on memory here, I think I'm getting the numbers right) then lowering the speed limit to 80kph would only make about 4 or 5 minutes difference to the travel time. This means that the speed limit is being decided by people that are bad at maths, this is not good! If you lower the speed limit from 100kph to 80kph it will NOT lower the average speed for a journey from 83kph to 80kph, clearly there are slow corners that will bring the average down lower than the maximum speed. There were courier drivers that had to drive that long highway there and back twice per day - if they lost 15 minutes each way then their day would be 1 hour longer. If you ONLY look at deaths then you could make all roads in NZ 10kph and have damn near zero deaths, but you really need to consider other factors when setting speed limits - the economics and practicality are important too.

Similarly there are people very unhappy about the Blenheim to Nelson road being completely blanketed with an 80kph limit. Again a blunt instrument that will badly affect the regular commuters. Is the entire length of that road really truly dangerous to drive at 100kph, more so than other roads in NZ? I highly doubt it!

So, what happens on those city roads that are reduced to a 30kph limit? Are police saying the limit is 30kph and at busy times they will be there enforcing the law and giving out tickets? Or are police going to be giving out tickets at any time, including when there isn't a single pedestrian or cyclist to be seen? In my experience the police give out tickets to anyone that exceeds the limit that has been set, regardless of whether the driving is safe or unsafe - then the ads tell me that it is about safety! I don't believe it is about safety, because if it was the police would not be overly bothered about strictly enforcing the limits at times of the day when the risk factors that were used to decide the lower speed limit are not present. I'm informed that the police are not supposed to use discretion, anyone travelling over 10kph above the limit is supposed to be ticketed according to police policy. Then there is this BS about being OK to ticket motorists for ANY speed above the limit, as if there is any safety difference between 50kph and 51kph - I can't see niggling over 1 or 2 kph making any difference to safety. The ads show some situations where speed is a problem and say it is about safety, I've never been ticketed for situations depicted in the ads. The ads don't show someone safely driving along a straight road and getting ticketed because their speed exceeded the posted limit, they don't give an honest look at what the police are doing.

Enforcing the limits more strictly when there are greater risk factors (like school children getting out of school) is fine by me, that actually makes sense. But I have been ticketed for exceeding the limit and nothing else, no pedestrians out on the paths or road, no cyclists, no cars near me, only the cop further ahead - I don't believe the BS about it all being to do with safety when I'm ticketed for riding safely but over the limit. It isn't about safety, it is about enforcing the limit that Waka Kotahi have decided to set.

[MarkH]

Most deaths are caused by human error, or extreme behaviour. It's hard to educate, engineer or enforce for those things, as nobody ever thinks they are the problem, so nobody ever thinks they need to change.

Yep, I totally agree. But most tickets are not for human error or extreme behaviour. And when someone does something wrong and that causes death or serious injury, so often the courts let them off lightly.

[jellywrestler]

Yep, I totally agree. But most tickets are not for human error or extreme behaviour. And when someone does something wrong and that causes death or serious injury, so often the courts let them off lightly.


this is interesting, she had her car there and drunk enough to be over four times the limit, then got in it and drove, yet is still a victim.
then she was so pissed she doesn't even remember the kicking the cop.
Someone who has taken their car, and still hooked into it is not a victim, they're a problem.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/young-woman-who-drove-drunk-and-kicked-a-police-officer-walks-from-court-with-clean-slate/R3RJXHT3MNHRPCKWH23OTLRZOA/?fbclid=IwAR0Eonzutok4eFPElU4FHPMc68NjO_6oYFgO6DE4 OM0rcDy2tXVsH4HXz5E

[pete376403]

this is interesting, she had her car there and drunk enough to be over four times the limit, then got in it and drove, yet is still a victim.
then she was so pissed she doesn't even remember the licking the cop.
Someone who has taken their car, and still hooked into it is not a victim, they're a problem.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/young-woman-who-drove-drunk-and-kicked-a-police-officer-walks-from-court-with-clean-slate/R3RJXHT3MNHRPCKWH23OTLRZOA/?fbclid=IwAR0Eonzutok4eFPElU4FHPMc68NjO_6oYFgO6DE4 OM0rcDy2tXVsH4HXz5E

While details are suppressed, there is enough info ( eg "working towards a masters degree" (I surmise in Law), "mongrel mob father") to suggest that, to the courts, some are more equal than others. To be sure there is no way I (MWM) would get this leniency.

[Reckless]

this is interesting, she had her car there and drunk enough to be over four times the limit, then got in it and drove, yet is still a victim.
then she was so pissed she doesn't even remember the licking the cop.
Someone who has taken their car, and still hooked into it is not a victim, they're a problem.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/young-woman-who-drove-drunk-and-kicked-a-police-officer-walks-from-court-with-clean-slate/R3RJXHT3MNHRPCKWH23OTLRZOA/?fbclid=IwAR0Eonzutok4eFPElU4FHPMc68NjO_6oYFgO6DE4 OM0rcDy2tXVsH4HXz5E


They are not a problem buddy according the Judge: Quote: “She’s the type of person everyone would like to see succeed and become a leader.”

Most of what I read I call bullshit to get herself off and it doesn't sound like she went quietly on the night LOL
That article Blames everyone and everything else other than herself for the Drink, Assault and bad decisions etc etc.
Four times the limit and unaware she was drunk yeh right! So now the more drunk you are the better the justification??
Secondly Let's blame Dad even though we are smart enough now to be studying for a masters.

FFS There is no "line in the sand" anymore not for state housing, ram raids, drunk driving and we wonder why we are where we are now :facepalm:

[Berries]

So, what happens on those city roads that are reduced to a 30kph limit? Are police saying the limit is 30kph and at busy times they will be there enforcing the law and giving out tickets? Or are police going to be giving out tickets at any time, including when there isn't a single pedestrian or cyclist to be seen? In my experience the police give out tickets to anyone that exceeds the limit that has been set, regardless of whether the driving is safe or unsafe - then the ads tell me that it is about safety! I don't believe it is about safety, because if it was the police would not be overly bothered about strictly enforcing the limits at times of the day when the risk factors that were used to decide the lower speed limit are not present. I'm informed that the police are not supposed to use discretion, anyone travelling over 10kph above the limit is supposed to be ticketed according to police policy. Then there is this BS about being OK to ticket motorists for ANY speed above the limit, as if there is any safety difference between 50kph and 51kph - I can't see niggling over 1 or 2 kph making any difference to safety. The ads show some situations where speed is a problem and say it is about safety, I've never been ticketed for situations depicted in the ads. The ads don't show someone safely driving along a straight road and getting ticketed because their speed exceeded the posted limit, they don't give an honest look at what the police are doing.

Enforcing the limits more strictly when there are greater risk factors (like school children getting out of school) is fine by me, that actually makes sense. But I have been ticketed for exceeding the limit and nothing else, no pedestrians out on the paths or road, no cyclists, no cars near me, only the cop further ahead - I don't believe the BS about it all being to do with safety when I'm ticketed for riding safely but over the limit. It isn't about safety, it is about enforcing the limit that Waka Kotahi have decided to set.
Nice post.

In the end the speed limit is the speed limit is the speed limit like a stop sign is a stop sign is a stop sign and a centre line is a centre line is centre line. That's why there is heavy enforcement of stops signs with good visibility where lots of people roll through instead of those where the sign is really warranted and crashes happen. That's why there is enforcement of crossing the centre line on corners where you can clearly see through the corner and know it is safe to do so rather than those where there is a massive blindspot. That's why there is a speed camera parked on the Dunedin motorway right now which has a design speed of 110km/h and has a hill on it with a bridge at the bottom where speed enforcement is regularly undertaken because it is easy to catch people out rather than patrol those roads with an actual speed related crash problem.

Some will say if you cross the centre line on some corners you will cross it on all of them which is clearly shit. Some will say if you flout some stop signs you flout them all which is clearly shit. Some will say if you are on a long down hill motorway with median barriers and gravity gets you to 108km/h then you are a habitual speeder. That's one view anyway. It does however give you the impression that there is some revenue gathering going on when you see it so often in places where there are no issues with the behaviour that is being ticketed.

Of course they won't be enforcing the 30km/h speed limit when it is busy because when it is busy congestion means that is the speed that people are doing - ie when lots of peds are around the speed limit is generally self enforcing. It will be 10pm when you are trying to get back from the massage parlour before the wife finishes her shift at Countdown. DAMHIK

The word 'discretion' was removed from the Police training manual many years ago.

[Berries]

The engineering solution is gold plated, long term and ultra expensive. We might get there one day, but that day is a very long way off.

Most deaths are caused by human error, or extreme behaviour. It's hard to educate, engineer or enforce for those things, as nobody ever thinks they are the problem, so nobody ever thinks they need to change.
After mumble mumble years in engineering I can now see the whole thing to be a crock that just wastes millions of dollars supporting an industry that wont achieve anything measurable.

My solution now is to erect a full size cross at the scene of every fatal crash and nail the guilty party to it, whether they were the one who died or not. A crash on Saturday night makes the papers on Sunday and gets spoken about on Monday then it is forgotten. Nail the bastards up as a constant reminder.

[rastuscat]

Yep, I totally agree. But most tickets are not for human error or extreme behaviour.

Good that we agree on something.

Getting a ticket slows people down, as it causes them to pay more attention to their speed.

Can we agree then that when a human error takes place, the slower a participant is going, the better off they are?

So, logically, tickets make people slow down, which reduces the impact of human error crashes.

That's about where we are at present.

If drivers/riders were actually as awesome as they think they are, it wouldn't be necessary to slow the population down.

So it's on us, really. To improve.

[Reckless]

Good that we agree on something.

Getting a ticket slows people down, as it causes them to pay more attention to their speed.

Can we agree then that when a human error takes place, the slower a participant is going, the better off they are?

So, logically, tickets make people slow down, which reduces the impact of human error crashes.

That's about where we are at present.

If drivers/riders were actually as awesome as they think they are, it wouldn't be necessary to slow the population down.

So it's on us, really. To improve.

I get your theory but it doesn't seem to be working speed limits are to a point even Granny seems to be ignoring them and using a sensible speed.
The ones that do are the ones that go even slower around any corner. These have long lines of frustrated motorists behind, trapped by yellow lines and then trying to pass at 103k on the infrequent passing lanes because of the Radar traps. The whole thing is a stuff up.
I reckon they need to start Issuing a lot more tickets for Cell phones, Distraction, not keeping to the left, the penalties for drink driving need to go up, raise the bar to get your license and make the penalties for blatant speed over 40k over a sensible open road 100k limit a lot stiffer.
Maybe a new law if you can't hold a straight driving line for 1/2 k and veer to the inner and outer lines = Careless driving.
We could mention the state of the roads but atm but the storms have negated that argument a little.
Getting a ticket for 102k in a 90K zone, on a main highway from a speed camera or cop when the whole damn line is travelling quit safely at 100k and no one is trying to pass, is not conveying the message.
It is actually quite stressful trying to get past that truck belching out fumes @108k's on a passing lane with Joe bloggs hard up your arse not wanting to be stuck behind him in the hills either. Let people get out 100-120 pass on a straight and get back in drop back to 100k. I think it is actually the safest way to clear the 80-90k campervans etc.

It is on people to improve agreed!
But as with any society the rules have to make them or guide them and ticketing only speed and not ticketing the actual causes are just making people do the same shit 10K slower.
You might save a few for justification of the ethos and stats but the issue is not being tackled. So every time the stats don't show decline you drop the speeds again to justify lowering the stats????
The blunt instrument called speed under the name of safety is not working and hasn't for some time.

[Jantar]

Good that we agree on something.

....
Can we agree then that when a human error takes place, the slower a participant is going, the better off they are?...

No, that is one thing we will not agree on. For motorcyclists the most dangerous speed is 45 to 65 km/h. At that speed when you come off you just flop and stop, and that is where the G force results in broken bones or worse. At higher speeds, unless you hit a solid obstruction, you will slide or tumble and take longer to stop so less force on the body. At less than 45 kmh a rider will often stay with the bike and allow it to take a lot of the impact.

My personal experience backs up this claim as my only two serious injuries occurred at 65 and 55 kmh. But coming off on the back straight of Levels at close to 200 kmh resulted in a bruise.

[FJRider]

Good that we agree on something.


The local Dunedin City council recently spent millions of $$$ widening and straightening the corners of Portabello Road, which runs the length of the Eastern side of Otago Harbour. It was (in it's original state) a 60 km/hr road.


Then ... they reduced the speed limit on the road to 40 km/hr ... to make it safer for us. Apparently.



I think that the general consensus of opinion is ... We do not agree.

[Jantar]

The local Dunedin City council recently spent millions of $$$ widening and straightening the corners of Portabello Road, which runs the length of the Eastern side of Otago Harbour. It was (in it's original state) a 60 km/hr road.


Then ... they reduced the speed limit on the road to 40 km/hr ... to make it safer for us. Apparently.



I think that the general consensus of opinion is ... We do not agree.

It was originally a 55 MPH road. That's 88 km/h.

[Reckless]

The local Dunedin City council recently spent millions of $$$ widening and straightening the corners of Portabello Road, which runs the length of the Eastern side of Otago Harbour. It was (in it's original state) a 60 km/hr road.

Then ... they reduced the speed limit on the road to 40 km/hr ... to make it safer for us. Apparently.

I think that the general consensus of opinion is ... We do not agree.

And how many are actually going the 40 unless the :Police: are there or a camera in place.
Are we past the point the speeds are so nonsensical people in general are no longer obeying them. :facepalm:

[FJRider]

And how many are actually going the 40 unless the :Police: are there or a camera in place.
Are we past the point the speeds are so nonsensical people in general are no longer obeying them. :facepalm:

Most ARE actually. It is the main tourist route to Taiaroa Head ... where the Albatross Colony is. Busses and campervans, motorbikes even. A shared Walking/cycle path on the water side of the road. A few cars even end up in the water ... but in most cases this is not a speed related cause/end result ... :msn-wink:

[rastuscat]

The 100 and 50 limits are a historical anomoly. They had no basis in scientific discovery. They were just a way to make it all easy to understand.

Increasingly now speed limits are going to be set to a scientific (the law of physics) standard.

It's just going to take a long time to wean ourselves off the old system.

[jellywrestler]

Increasingly now speed limits are going to be set to a scientific (the law of physics) standard.


the physics of the road or the physics of a crash?, certainly not the first. just done the kaikoura coast in heavy rain, and the dry, cunt of a trip as the trucks were all tapped out at 80 km in the 80 km zone and made it hard to pass them as there was no differential in speed limit.
the limit went for miles in one place on one of the newest and best roads in nz
It seemed a lot of people were bored and spent a lot of time gazing at the sea, i saw several vehciles swerving when they looked back on the road.

[FJRider]

The 100 and 50 limits are a historical anomoly. They had no basis in scientific discovery. They were just a way to make it all easy to understand.

Increasingly now speed limits are going to be set to a scientific (the law of physics) standard.

It's just going to take a long time to wean ourselves off the old system.

How would you describe the 110 km/hr limits then .. ??

People still kill themselves inside 50 km/hr speed limit areas (the laws of stupidity).

No matter how hard it will be to kill yourself (or your family) on any road ... some will still find a way. Go figure.

[pete376403]

I doubt if there has ever been a logical reason for speed limits, just a trade of between what seemed about right and what people would tolerate. I read the UK motorway limit of 70Miles per hour was set because that was where Margaret Thatcher felt comfortable driving her Rover.
Another instance I read of (Australian Northern Territory) was where a previous hard 130 km limit was removed and the average speed increased only a little, to where most people felt comfortable, 133 - 139. Also there were no fatalities on this section of road while the speed limit was removed. https://www.webbikeworld.com/nt-restricts-speed-despite-evidence/

[SaferRides]

The 100 and 50 limits are a historical anomoly. They had no basis in scientific discovery. They were just a way to make it all easy to understand.

Increasingly now speed limits are going to be set to a scientific (the law of physics) standard.

It's just going to take a long time to wean ourselves off the old system.

Please explain how the new limits are set on a scientific basis.


Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

Please explain how the new limits are set on a scientific basis.


Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Survivability. Just as an example, they are taking the speed limits down to 30 kmh in areas of likely conflict between pedestrians and vehicles.

Perhaps you are aware that impact is a product of the kinetic energy of the parties involved, the angle of incidence, and the protection each human is wrapped in (airbags, crumple zones etc).

Changing the kinetic energy is the way things are going. None of us ever expect to crash, so none of us see the need for us individually to slow down.

In fact, we feel like something is being taken from us, it's what upsets us. Like we are having the right to crash at higher speeds taken from us.

Because none of us ever thinks we are going to crash. But if that's the case, why do so many?

[onearmedbandit]

Because none of us ever thinks we are going to crash. But if that's the case, why do so many?

To be fair, that's a generalisation that serves to alienate a lot of people. I can't think off the top of my head of any of my friends or acquaintances who haven't crashed or been in an accident whether they were speeding or not. So I'd argue that most people I know are fully aware that they can crash, but they don't lead their lives with this as a major consideration due to the irregularity and low instance of being involved in a MVA.

Maybe a better way to frame it would be 'most people are aware there is a chance they could be in a crash but don't take the correct precautions to lower that chance'.

[Berries]

Because none of us ever thinks we are going to crash. But if that's the case, why do so many?
Any number is too many right?

You could come at it from the other direction and say that considering the mobiilty that we have and the number of vehicles on the road there are surprisingly few crashes, even more so when you take out the arsehole factor which has been a big feature of recent fatal crashes, at least down south.

[rastuscat]

Any number is too many right?

You could come at it from the other direction and say that considering the mobiilty that we have and the number of vehicles on the road there are surprisingly few crashes, even more so when you take out the arsehole factor which has been a big feature of recent fatal crashes, at least down south.

Thats a really interesting topic. DSI / VKT. Its the number of death and serious injuries per 100 million km traveled. Its been consistently trending down for many years.

The number of deaths has bounced up and down, but relative to the traffic volume its trading down. But we like to count deaths, its an easy metric to understand.

[rastuscat]

352517

For the stat-o-philes.

It's road fatalities relative to vehicle kilometres travelled.

[pete376403]

Why the emphasis on survivability of pedestrians? I don't drive/ride on the footpaths, shouldn't pedestrians stay off the road? Isn't that why there are seperate roads and footpaths? Shouldn't railway speeds be limited for the same reason, to avoid injury to car drivers and pedestrians who cannot stay out of the way of trains? (as for children who run out onto the street, how about charging the parents who failed to look after the child, rather than the driver who had a kid suddenly pop up in their windscreen? ) Question - do parents who back over their kids in the driveway get charged?

[onearmedbandit]

If you were driving according to the law and a child ran out in front of your car I doubt very much you'd be charged with careless use causing death etc. And a quick google shows that some drivers have been charged for running over a child in a driveway, and some haven't.

[rastuscat]

Why the emphasis on survivability of pedestrians? I don't drive/ride on the footpaths, shouldn't pedestrians stay off the road? Isn't that why there are seperate roads and footpaths? Shouldn't railway speeds be limited for the same reason, to avoid injury to car drivers and pedestrians who cannot stay out of the way of trains? (as for children who run out onto the street, how about charging the parents who failed to look after the child, rather than the driver who had a kid suddenly pop up in their windscreen? ) Question - do parents who back over their kids in the driveway get charged?

People make mistakes. Gap selection is more challenging for the young and the old. A 92 year old paid for that with her life in Woodend a month ago, crossing the road.

Its the old conflict between safety and efficiency.

[FJRider]

People make mistakes. Gap selection is more challenging for the young and the old. A 92 year old paid for that with her life in Woodend a month ago, crossing the road.

Its the old conflict between safety and efficiency.

Conflict ... ?? You actually mean that there is not enough pedestrians dying ... in direct relation to the amount of traffic that passes through the town.


I guess that speed reduction through the town (you mentioned would happen) still hasn't happened yet. 92 year olds DO make mistakes.

Go figure.

[FJRider]

352517

For the stat-o-philes.

It's road fatalities relative to vehicle kilometres travelled.


A few thousand MORE vehicles on the road ... and the stats will drop MORE.


Even if more people die on the roads each year.


Regardless of whom was at fault.


And ... regardless of the speeds involved at the time.

[rastuscat]

Conflict ... ?? You actually mean that there is not enough pedestrians dying ... in direct relation to the amount of traffic that passes through the town.


I guess that speed reduction through the town (you mentioned would happen) still hasn't happened yet. 92 year olds DO make mistakes.

Go figure.

The transport system has been focussed on effficiency for many decades. Moving the most traffic most efficiently. Sure, it wasn't always safe for all road users, but hey, efficiency ruled. It's where the attitude that if pedestrians want to live they should stay off the road comes from.

But the attitude at WK is now that safety matters more than efficiency. Lives matter more then freight getting to places as fast as it always has.

In my view, roads are for people, not just vehicles. I recall playing tennis on the road I lived in when I was a kid growing up in the 70s. I rode my bike, played basketball, all the stuff we wish kids would do now instead of playing on playstations.

But we have given kids the view of the world from the back seat of a car, rather from on the seat of a bike. We told kids it wasn't safe to ride bikes when we insisted they wear helmets. We told them it wasn't safe when we drive them to school, instead of letting them learn about neighbourhoods by walking around and riding their bikes. Kids don't learn about gap selection, as we took that need to select gaps away from them, by molly coddling them in the back of cars.

So now the gubbermint is recognising the value of neighbourhoods, by slowing traffic in those neighbourhoods down. And compensating for human errors by trying to make those errors happen at lower speeds.

While we all sit back and rage about how it's an inffringement of our right to drive at speeds that see so many people (motorcyclists too) unnecessarily injured and killed, without us recognising that average speeds matter more than maximum speed. Lower speed limits lead to more consistent flows, rather than people having to frequently brake and accelerate.

Wow, must climb off my soap box. Sorry fellas.

[FJRider]

The transport system has been focussed on effficiency for many decades. Moving the most traffic most efficiently. Sure, it wasn't always safe for all road users, but hey, efficiency ruled. It's where the attitude that if pedestrians want to live they should stay off the road comes from.

But the attitude at WK is now that safety matters more than efficiency. Lives matter more then freight getting to places as fast as it always has.

In my view, roads are for people, not just vehicles. I recall playing tennis on the road I lived in when I was a kid growing up in the 70s. I rode my bike, played basketball, all the stuff we wish kids would do now instead of playing on playstations.

But we have given kids the view of the world from the back seat of a car, rather from on the seat of a bike. We told kids it wasn't safe to ride bikes when we insisted they wear helmets. We told them it wasn't safe when we drive them to school, instead of letting them learn about neighbourhoods by walking around and riding their bikes. Kids don't learn about gap selection, as we took that need to select gaps away from them, by molly coddling them in the back of cars.

So now the gubbermint is recognising the value of neighbourhoods, by slowing traffic in those neighbourhoods down. And compensating for human errors by trying to make those errors happen at lower speeds.

While we all sit back and rage about how it's an inffringement of our right to drive at speeds that see so many people (motorcyclists too) unnecessarily injured and killed, without us recognising that average speeds matter more than maximum speed. Lower speed limits lead to more consistent flows, rather than people having to frequently brake and accelerate.

Wow, must climb off my soap box. Sorry fellas.

I recall when the Government changed the open road speed limit (for cars) from 50 mph to 60mph. For efficiency right .. ?? But that was quite a few years back. Is reducing the speed limits now actually efficient ... or is it life saving .. ??

The Playstation Racing games aren't quite the same as the real cars are on real roads. A few seem to forget that. I played on the roads too ... but there wasn't as much traffic. And the cars often slowed down for you too.

People have the right to die by killing themselves on the road ... if they choose too ... it's just when they kill somebody that didn't WANT/NEED to die that pisses me off.

Riding and driving at a good average speed takes some skill and concentration. And it's an ability lacking in many. So they just sit at the speed limit ... regardless of weather and traffic conditions. And when the do (eventually) prang ... you hear from them .. "I was only doing the speed limit".

[Scuba_Steve]

But the attitude at WK is now that safety matters more than efficiency. Lives matter more then freight getting to places as fast as it always has.


Thats what they say... If that were true maybe they should do something to improve it
Their own data shows the slower speeds are failing, but do they scrap it & look elsewhere? no, course not, like typical Govt insanity they double down. Still not sure if it's to keep the scam going or they really are just imbeciles

There are plenty of other areas for safety improvements.
Harass slow drivers (improve that avg speed you spoke of)
Use quality seal like in the days of past & stop signing off on sub-par roads
Stop blocking views at intersections & roundabouts in an attempt to fight human nature
Stop putting pedestrian crossings on corners
Stop allowing parking spaces to get closer & closer to corners & pedestrian crossings
Make it so you have to be able to drive to get a licence
Stop making roads slow boring & straight, distraction is the biggest killer!
Stop doing all the thinking for drivers & make them engage their brain, people are lazy if they don't have to think, they won't! Not good for people in control of 2T pieces of steel & plastic
Instead of 30km/h city centers, make them 'shared zones' (& use some of that propaganda moneys to teach people what they are), this would also help carparks
Stop with the overuse of traffic lights, especially on state highways. It only results in stupider drivers & increase in risk takers i.e red light runners
Just to name a few. Some are easy fixes, some would take effort, all would be better than the insanity they continue with

[rastuscat]

Their own data shows the slower speeds are failing, but do they scrap it & look elsewhere?

Skoober !!

Check this out. I've been trawling for actual evidence, and not in the media, who tend to repeat the stuff they think people expect to hear.

https://www.knowledgehub.transport.govt.nz/assets/TKH-Uploads/TKC-2018/Has-the-Christchurch-Central-City-30kmhr-Zone-worked.pdf

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/nelson-mail/20220107/281479279761721

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/speed-management-guide-road-to-zero-edition/wsp-the-impact-of-change-in-speed-limit-of-three-sites-report.pdf

[Scuba_Steve]

Skoober !!

Check this out. I've been trawling for actual evidence, and not in the media, who tend to repeat the stuff they think people expect to hear.

https://www.knowledgehub.transport.govt.nz/assets/TKH-Uploads/TKC-2018/Has-the-Christchurch-Central-City-30kmhr-Zone-worked.pdf

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/nelson-mail/20220107/281479279761721

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/speed-management-guide-road-to-zero-edition/wsp-the-impact-of-change-in-speed-limit-of-three-sites-report.pdf

While I'm not willing to dismiss those outright, it appears all the numbers came from those with vested interest to "look good"; so I do say a salt shaker should be on hand when viewing. More investigation will be needed
I also don't know most the roads mentioned, but I dare say there wasn't just a speed change; there was most likely safety equipment installed or roads adjusted as is usually the case.
I do know the SH58 one & the sections they're comparing are quite different, in some respects it would be like having 2 firepits, firepit A uses pine & you enter in plan clothes, firepit B uses gum you wear a firesuit & then determining gum to be a safer firepit fuel.

The lower speeds in CBD's I'm alright with, but again they should be shared zones (which have been shown to be safer overseas) not hard n fast 30k zones... also NZTA need to stop allowing cities/towns to build their CBD's along the main HW's

[rastuscat]

While I'm not willing to dismiss those outright, it appears all the numbers came from those with vested interest to "look good";

What you refer to is confirmation bias. We form a belief, then seek evidence to prove ourselves right, and reject evidence to the contrary.

Oddly, it works both ways. Those who don't believe in speed limit reductions look for evidence that it doesn't work, and reject evidence that it does.

Thing is, the people who write reports like those above know that their views will be subject to analysis, so they tend to present their reasoning and the basis for their findings.

I'm yet to see evidence that we have to keep the speed limits at the level they have been historically in order that civilisation doesn't collapse.

[Scuba_Steve]

What you refer to is confirmation bias. We form a belief, then seek evidence to prove ourselves right, and reject evidence to the contrary.

Oddly, it works both ways. Those who don't believe in speed limit reductions look for evidence that it doesn't work, and reject evidence that it does.


This is true for most & is compounded by social media & the echo chambers they put you in



Thing is, the people who write reports like those above know that their views will be subject to analysis, so they tend to present their reasoning and the basis for their findings.

But this still doesn't stop them giving the financer what they want, or [in the case of the UK study which showed the speed scam to potentially cost lives] for the financer not to release the study (until forced to by OIA; which side-note I see they're locking down here to make it harder still to get info). Lets not forget the Tobacco industry & their studies, Sugar, Monsanto, Asbestos, all have studies which tell the story they want; NZTA/Govt are no different, as you say 'confirmation bias' only difference is they're paying the moneys so someone will say the words they tell them to.



I'm yet to see evidence that we have to keep the speed limits at the level they have been historically in order that civilisation doesn't collapse.

While not wrong there's also very little justification around lowering speeds; it usually comes down to "if you hit a brick wall it's safer to do it at a slower speed" which while true doesn't account for the fact we don't have brick walls popping up out of nowhere or that most cars don't hit brick walls let-alone head-on.


While I can't give you evidence (due to it being "insider knowledge"), & I'm quite happy for you to borrow that salt shaker, I do know NZTA have had meetings about the slowdown of NZ & "road to zero" being failures & how can they "spin the info" to make it look good; thanks to a mate privy to info he is not allowed to share.


There is no 1 solution for road safety, it's a combination of things at varying levels in varying places. This is why I take such offense to NZTA/Govt approach of "this one thing that has very little to do with the cause is our sole focus!" to the detriment of road safety & efficiency as a whole. And before you go there I know it's not quite that black & white, there are other things done too (alot I also don't agree with), but it's not too far off; especially when it comes to inforcement.

[rastuscat]

There is no 1 solution for road safety, it's a combination of things at varying levels in varying places..

Amen fella. Those I hear from often tell me that it's all about driver education, road engineering or stricter enforcement.

When in reality it's about all those things. Trouble is, everyone thinks driver training is a great idea...….for everyone else. And everyone thinks that the roads should be like those in Germany, but nobody wants to pay for them. And everyone wants the cops to catch people breaking the law, but don't want to get caught themselves.

We really are a self centred lot, us humans.

[rastuscat]

Had to laugh at this one. The laws of physics doesn't have a tolerance.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131411251/watch-two-ferraris-caught-on-camera-in-weird-highspeed-crash

Chuckle.

[onearmedbandit]

I'd say that's more to do with a lack of commonsense, a lack of ability, and a lack of intelligence rather than just speed. Unfortunately none of those you can police and enforce limits on.

[jellywrestler]

I'd say that's more to do with a lack of commonsense, a lack of ability, and a lack of intelligence rather than just speed. Unfortunately none of those you can police and enforce limits on.

you can, they just dont want to simply. I reckon they should have cameras in all cop cars recording ofeence bad driving ets and pulling people over for the.
Right now it's speed mostly, cause they don't want to fuck around being dragged into courts when someone challenges it. The judge sees the spped, knows the copper is sworn to tell the truth and convicts on that.
If they had cameras they could record footage, ticket people then it's out of their hands, the footage is used in court, and maybe police will actually seek out bad behaviour instead of just speed speed speed.
Until that happens people just get away with shit again and again.

[jellywrestler]

Had to laugh at this one. The laws of physics doesn't have a tolerance.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131411251/watch-two-ferraris-caught-on-camera-in-weird-highspeed-crash

Chuckle.

you've fallen into your own hole here, 'speed isn't the issue' It's an issue of a number, not the issue

[Berries]

Ferrari. Meh. Pretty sure the corner was unsigned and the council will be in the firing line. Get a local perspective - https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/crime/woman-caught-speeding-twice-one-day

[SaferRides]

Well, AT has been busy changing speed limits in Mangere and the result is a mess. On a short drive (maybe 5km) there were 30, 40, 50, 60 and 80 km/h limits. One section of road went from 50 to 30 past a school, stayed at 30 for maybe 500 m after the school, back to 50, then to 40, 60 and 30 (school down a side road?) and then 60, or it might have been 50. I lost track.

It is actually worse than Victoria, which is quite an achievement. Their limits are at least logical.

If we are going to have 40 as the standard urban speed limit, then there should be a managed change nationally.

[roogazza]

Well, AT has been busy changing speed limits in Mangere and the result is a mess. On a short drive (maybe 5km) there were 30, 40, 50, 60 and 80 km/h limits. One section of road went from 50 to 30 past a school, stayed at 30 for maybe 500 m after the school, back to 50, then to 40, 60 and 30 (school down a side road?) and then 60, or it might have been 50. I lost track.

It is actually worse than Victoria, which is quite an achievement. Their limits are at least logical.

If we are going to have 40 as the standard urban speed limit, then there should be a managed change nationally.

I'm driving around glued to the bloody speedo. If anyone is mooching around Levin or passing thru watch for the camera vans ,especially around the Queen St areas... :yawn: :oi-grr:

[James Deuce]

Congrats to LTNZ for completely fucking the Wairarapa weekend economy. I'm friendly with a few cafe owners in Greytown and Carterton and the massive drop in custom isn't seasonal, it's simply people can't be fucked spending time in the Wairarapa with the drop in speed limits and the massive fuckup that is the 4 years of road works between Carterton and Masterton and the current 30kph speed limit for most of that journey. The youngest took Mum out for brunch on Sunday and the cafe we went to was complaining that people weren't turning up for pre-booked tables so they were having to seat people outside while they waited to see if the reservations would turn up. Rusty, who owns the French Bakery in Greytown has completely dropped his weekend menu and just does cabinet food now. Not worth paying a chef to do half a dozen orders over 2 days.

Also watch out for the hidden speed camera in the middle of Carterton in the new 40kph speed zone.

The 80kph speed limit between Featherston and Greytown. WTF is that about? It's 3 straights joined up by 2 corners. They've made all these changes and they very seldom Police it. I just set cruise and sit dead on the limit. I get overtaken repeatedly. I get angry rage fits from people who cannot get into their tiny fucking heads that the speed limit at the North is 50kph right through to the 80kph limit. The "dangerous" bit of road was between Carterton and Masterton. The deaths on that stretch of road they keep referring to are getting close to a decade and more ago and the only accidents are the constant damage to vehicles from poorly managed road works. At this point LTNZ are just taking the piss and they can get fucked.

[release_the_bees]

That 80km/h section certainly is a head scratcher. I rode through there last weekend and I don't recall anything particularly hazardous about it. It's especially perplexing considering that (correct me if I'm wrong) the Remutaka Hill Road is still 100 km/h. Not that I'm complaining, but I'd have thought that would have been the first candidate in that area for a speed limit reduction.

Luckily, I was heading out Te Wharau way, so I turned off before Carterton so didn't run the chance of triggering the hidden speed camera. I tend to ride within the limits, especially in populated areas, but it's still good to know it is there for next time.

Sent from my SM-S901E using Tapatalk

[SaferRides]

Congrats to LTNZ for completely fucking the Wairarapa weekend economy. I'm friendly with a few cafe owners in Greytown and Carterton and the massive drop in custom isn't seasonal, it's simply people can't be fucked spending time in the Wairarapa with the drop in speed limits and the massive fuckup that is the 4 years of road works between Carterton and Masterton and the current 30kph speed limit for most of that journey. The youngest took Mum out for brunch on Sunday and the cafe we went to was complaining that people weren't turning up for pre-booked tables so they were having to seat people outside while they waited to see if the reservations would turn up. Rusty, who owns the French Bakery in Greytown has completely dropped his weekend menu and just does cabinet food now. Not worth paying a chef to do half a dozen orders over 2 days.

That is a good point, and one apparently ignored by Waka Kotahi and councils. My typical Sunday ride is now in the North Waikato, as they at least continue to maintain roads in a reasonable condition and don't have the same speed limit chaos as AT has managed. I usually fill up before heading home to avoid the Auckland fuel tax...

[F5 Dave]

I went straight up sh2 for the first time since change a couple of weeks back. Geez, how tedious on bullet straight roads. Some enelected safety genius making blanket decisions with no though process at all. Made resolution to not do that again.

[rastuscat]

I went straight up sh2 for the first time since change a couple of weeks back. Geez, how tedious on bullet straight roads. Some enelected safety genius making blanket decisions with no though process at all. Made resolution to not do that again.

It would have been signed off by whichever Council it is in. It's how limits work. Unless it's a State Highway.

[jellywrestler]

It would have been signed off by whichever Council it is in. It's how limits work. Unless it's a State Highway.

i'm pretty sure the SH in the SH2 he wrote does mean it's a state highway?

[Berries]

I went straight up sh2 for the first time since change a couple of weeks back. Geez, how tedious on bullet straight roads. Some enelected safety genius making blanket decisions with no though process at all. Made resolution to not do that again.
You did not die or get seriously injured so it worked.

Here you go. Although they have backed out of doing state highway speed limits this is the process all the local authorities have to follow - https://www.nzta.govt.nz/safety/partners/speed-and-infrastructure/safe-and-appropriate-speed-limits/speed-management-guide/announcements-from-the-director-of-land-transport/

The future has been summarised in this thread before but basically 80km/h open road speed limit, 60km/h on unsealed roads, 30km/h on residential roads and near schools and 40 on urban arterials. There will be a few odd ones on the fringes and up north you will have the occasional 110km/h speed limit on the expressways/motorways but give it a year and that's what we will be looking at.

You don't need to agree, the fine will be in the post after a massive expansion of the speed camera programme - https://www.nzta.govt.nz/safety/partners/speed-and-infrastructure/safety-cameras/

And I reckon we will still do 300 people a year.

[pete376403]

I see a market for polarised number plate covers. The material already exists - security screens for computer monitors. Quite transparent when viewed straight on, a few degrees off and they are completely opaque. And an upsurge is gatsoed cameras. Will help get rid of old tyres.

[Berries]

The new cameras are all MAC enabled so they can read the chip they inserted in your arm with the Covid vaccine when you ride past so no need for number plate recognition.

Only works below 120km/h though.

[jellywrestler]

The new cameras are all MAC enabled so they can read the chip they inserted in your arm with the Covid vaccine when you ride past so no need for number plate recognition.

Only works below 120km/h though.

so Harley riders have nothing to worry about then

[roogazza]

or do what we used to in the seventies, take the plate off and stick down your jacket before the Rimutaka GP on Sunday mornings....... :msn-wink:

[Berries]

or do what we used to in the seventies, take the plate off and stick down your jacket before the Rimutaka GP on Sunday mornings....... :msn-wink:
i wonder how those new black plates work? Am sure they would have been tested but from quite a few angles they are impossible to read when the suns out.

Can you even have a new black plate on a bike?

[onearmedbandit]

i wonder how those new black plates work? Am sure they would have been tested but from quite a few angles they are impossible to read when the suns out.

Can you even have a new black plate on a bike?

I’ve seen a bike with one recently.

[Scuba_Steve]

Congrats to LTNZ for completely fucking the Wairarapa weekend economy. I'm friendly with a few cafe owners in Greytown and Carterton and the massive drop in custom isn't seasonal, it's simply people can't be fucked spending time in the Wairarapa with the drop in speed limits and the massive fuckup that is the 4 years of road works between Carterton and Masterton and the current 30kph speed limit for most of that journey. The youngest took Mum out for brunch on Sunday and the cafe we went to was complaining that people weren't turning up for pre-booked tables so they were having to seat people outside while they waited to see if the reservations would turn up. Rusty, who owns the French Bakery in Greytown has completely dropped his weekend menu and just does cabinet food now. Not worth paying a chef to do half a dozen orders over 2 days.

Also watch out for the hidden speed camera in the middle of Carterton in the new 40kph speed zone.

The 80kph speed limit between Featherston and Greytown. WTF is that about? It's 3 straights joined up by 2 corners. They've made all these changes and they very seldom Police it. I just set cruise and sit dead on the limit. I get overtaken repeatedly. I get angry rage fits from people who cannot get into their tiny fucking heads that the speed limit at the North is 50kph right through to the 80kph limit. The "dangerous" bit of road was between Carterton and Masterton. The deaths on that stretch of road they keep referring to are getting close to a decade and more ago and the only accidents are the constant damage to vehicles from poorly managed road works. At this point LTNZ are just taking the piss and they can get fucked.

Word on the street is they're planning on fucking up the other side of the hill in Upper Hutt next, apparently they want to piss away a shit tone of money installing center barriers, right before they piss away even more retarding SH2 down to 50-60km/h from pretty much the "welcome to Upper Hutt" to the other "welcome to Upper Hutt", along with adding yet another traffic light

... It's actually gonna be quicker to use the council roads than it is our 2nd main Highway & that is fucking ridiculous!

[pete376403]

Word on the street is they're planning on fucking up the other side of the hill in Upper Hutt next, apparently they want to piss away a shit tone of money installing center barriers, right before they piss away even more retarding SH2 down to 50-60km/h from pretty much the "welcome to Upper Hutt" to the other "welcome to Upper Hutt", along with adding yet another traffic light

... It's actually gonna be quicker to use the council roads than it is our 2nd main Highway & that is fucking ridiculous!

So turn off at Maoribank, Fergusson Drive to the maidstone underpass, Goodshed road to the roundabout, Lane Street to Alexander road, through the back of silverstream and back out the rail underpass. My street runs parallel to Lane street and it appears there is no speed limit judging by vehicles passing my house at night (and cops are never seen) so you could well be right

[neels]

Have just received notification in the letterbox of the reduction of speed around where I live, apparently because we live within 1 light year of a school.

I was amused by the way it was expressed as proposed altered speed limits, pretty sure the only alteration will be downwards, and will proceed as proposed regardless of feedback.

What is interesting looking at the Christchurch council map and reading the comments attached to it is that most of the feedback appears to be in favour of reducing speed limit. I suspect anyone interested in getting somewhere in reasonable time is going to be outvoted, by neurotic mothers who drive their kids to school anyway and are quite happy to double park in the middle of the road, and grumpy boomers who think the world isn't safe enough and have forgotten their days of driving home pissed in the HQ wagon with 8 kids in the back.

Anyway for all you churchur people, here is your future (https://ccc.mysocialpinpoint.com.au/safe-speed-neighbourhoods/safe-speed-neighbourhoods-map#/#%2F).....

353085

[Berries]

I liked your response.

[SaferRides]

One of the weirdest developments in Auckland recently are the ghost pedestrian crossings. These are raised island crossings, usually on an arterial road, and with no school or other care facility in sight. Some are even traffic light controlled.

I could understand something like this outside of schools on busy roads, but there are none near any of the local schools. Truly bizarre.


Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[onearmedbandit]

We're getting raised intersections in ChCh now, for example Lincoln Rd and Whiteleigh Ave intersection. If you're not sure of what I mean, imagine an entire intersection being a speedbump. Granted there is a lot of foot traffic (from my casual observations a lot of drunk people scrambling to get across the intersection heading off to a concert or sports event) in this area but I'd expect to see more of them 'pop up'.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/131119315/new-raised-bump-will-make-busy-intersection-safer-but-the-mayor-isnt-a-fan

[Scuba_Steve]

So turn off at Maoribank, Fergusson Drive to the maidstone underpass, Goodshed road to the roundabout, Lane Street to Alexander road, through the back of silverstream and back out the rail underpass. My street runs parallel to Lane street and it appears there is no speed limit judging by vehicles passing my house at night (and cops are never seen) so you could well be right

Or take the scenic route via whitemans valley
I know ever since they fucked up Whakatiki St intersection but putting in lights it's faster to use the half advertised speed, 1.5x distance council roads than it is to use SH2.
Just skip off at Gibbons, down McLeod, & back on at Whakatiki... it's fucking stupid that council roads at half [advertised] speed & greater distance are actually faster to use than our 2nd main Highway but we've got NZTA, a dept whos purpose seems to be making the beehive look competent

[Racing Dave]

but I'd expect to see more of them 'pop up'.

Indeed. The next time you're on the ring road, have a look at the roundabout where ANZAC Drive joins. Literally, just around the corner in Frosts Rd is another such. Advance warning, nil.

[Berries]

Wasn't sure where to put this but has made me think about my ride home each day from the centre of town past oodles of cameras before getting to the open road and giving it my namesake.

dunedin-police-using-cctv-to-find-speeding-drivers-the-bastards (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/police-using-cctv-find-speeding-drivers)

[SaferRides]

Wasn't sure where to put this but has made me think about my ride home each day from the centre of town past oodles of cameras before getting to the open road and giving it my namesake.

dunedin-police-using-cctv-to-find-speeding-drivers-the-bastards (https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/police-using-cctv-find-speeding-drivers)
That all sounds somewhat dodgy. If they were unable to identify the motorbike at the time, how can they be sure they have the correct one on CCTV?

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[Berries]

That all sounds somewhat dodgy. If they were unable to identify the motorbike at the time, how can they be sure they have the correct one on CCTV?
I imagine that they look at the footage from the last camera that they would have gone past at about the time they would have gone past it and down here you aren't going to have to choose between too many options.

Anyroad, they caught them both and looks like they were both thieving scum. Shame they did not shunt them both off the road at the time.

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/crime/police-catch-fleeing-drivers