Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

The Ariel Arrow 250cc two stroke twin of the early sixties was new and a very different attempt at motorcycle design, with a mixture of clever ideas (which should have been developed more) and some not so clever ideas as well. It couldn't be classed as just a prototype of course, it did sell very well for a few years.
http://sump-publishing.co.uk/ariel%20arrow.htm

This is how I saw it at the time:-
Its excellent handling with its trailing link forks and very stiff pressed steel frame, unfortunately was compromised by it's (too small) wheels and I was forever dragging everything on the road if I leaned hard into a corner! - poor brakes, smokey two stroke iron barrelled engine (which itself actually had some good innovative features to assist with maintenance).
However, any of these innovations were badly compromised by one or two cheapskate ideas which cancelled out any of the benefits the new design might have brought to us!

The "cheapskate" solutions used in it which bothered me most were:-

At first glance a good idea and the way it was arranged was fine - the two (seperate) cranks were joined in the middle (but with a keyed taper arrangement held together by an Allen head bolt. This bolt was accessed through the right hand (hollow) crankshaft by an Allen key).
However, even though it was keyed, it tended to move a little, compromising the ignnition timing - probably splines or Hirth Couplings could have been used instead.
Each crank could be extracted by removing the crankcase sides containing the main bearings) - the main crankcase and gearbox was all one piece.

The big end bearings were of the crowded roller type (no cages).

Single carb, ( to me, a two carb setup would have been a better idea).

The pathetic two transfer ports were incredibly small by today's standards.

The plain bearing used in the gearbox (made of sintered iron), was prone to break up and of course the traditional type Burman (I think) four speed gear cluster itself was already outdated, especially when used in conjunction with a two stroke twin, - not a great marriage! The equally old fashioned chain primary drive was not really the way to go at that time either! but the fact that a forward thinking design was still being manufactured with these old traditional ideas still incorporated (because of management restrictions no doubt!) was a bad idea, especially in the days of the upcoming Japanese invasion! - sad but true!

Still loved it though!


336861

336860 (the bigger wheels helped considerably!).

[ken seeber]

Yeah Will, the Ariel Arrow was, to me, sort of no different to the Ariel/BSA 3. Clever in some ways, but not in every way.
Was it some dude, Herman Meier (?) who modified them for racing? Still with CI barrels, scant cooling fins, probably not too durable, but I guess the BSA Bantams were no better in this regard.
Still good on them for going for something adventurous. However, I get the impression that the management of typical era pommy companies was by stuffy, pipe smoking, fat wankers that were quite disconnected with the needs of the market and even their employees. Sorry Guy. :facepalm:

[guyhockley]

However, I get the impression that the management of typical era pommy companies was by stuffy, pipe smoking, fat wankers that were quite disconnected with the needs of the market and even their employees. Sorry Guy. :facepalm:
No need to apologise, absolutely spot on.
(Working class) Guy

[guyhockley]

Think I've mentioned this, before, but a mate of mine insisted that his Arrow was 'big bang/twingled'.
Ali barrels and 6 speed boxes available nowadays, of course.

[guyhockley]

Guy,
Thanks for posting the Bantam fabricated port/cylinder link!I would like to build a similar setup for the sluggish 90cc scooter engines,,it gives me hope that other crazy folk are out there doing the same thing!!:yes:
I'm pretty sure Trevor Amos from the Bantam Racing Club follows the ESE thread - he knows a million times more than me about the little cluckers :rolleyes:

[guyhockley]

Usual apologies if everyone's already seen these...

[guyhockley]

More from the vault...

[guyhockley]

I like the shot of the Ariel going round (maybe?) a modern sportsbike!

[guyhockley]

Not very good quality, sorry.

[husaberg]

Not very good quality, sorry.

I had not seen any of those ones I have posted Ian Cramps fathers 58 VMCC winning one the Classer racer road test version and the story of the O'Rouke Meier one.

[guyhockley]

I'll stop soon, honest!

[WilDun]

GUY, I didn't realize that there were so many photos of Arrows around!

I used to be obsessed with them after Hermann Meier's (that's correct Ken) TT effort pre 1965 and had almost built a racer by that time (with ideas for rotary valves as well - which would not have been too difficult for someone to do on an Arrow - except for me of course).
If the Jap stuff hadn't taken over completely, I'm sure someone would have come up with rotary valves on an Arrow (maybe someone did?).
I also had one when I moved here to New Zealand in 1966 and had big plans for that ........... then the Suzuki T20 came along and the rest is history! - unfortunately, this bike showed me just how inadequate the Arrow was and how it had not been properly developed -from a very promising start!
The T20 had it's problems too but development continued and this type carried on into the T250/T350 and so on.

I wish someone would address all the Arrow's problems today, just to show how it might have been - I know that this has been done here and there in racers of course, but I also mean as a different looking road bike. (don't think the styling was 100%, especially with those huge guards and the small wheels - and those brakes!

On the other hand, a complete re-design using the same style forks and frame might be in order! :laugh:

[190mech]

I was given a pile of old Sport Aviation magazines from the 70's to 80's,much interesting reading in them when people actually built stuff in their garage!I found an article about a new engine design called the "rotary vee",did a google search and found some vids;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvrke7wblQs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFr81UKeviM

[WilDun]

I was given a pile of old Sport Aviation magazines from the 70's to 80's,much interesting reading in them when people actually built stuff in their garage!I found an article about a new engine design called the "rotary vee",did a google search and found some vids;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvrke7wblQs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFr81UKeviM

That engine caught my attention when it featured in " practical mechanics" (I think) in the seventies and it seemed a good idea at the time. - I think it was also mentioned somewhere earlier, in this thread.

The trouble with most rotary engines (including the early radial rotaries) is that with rotating cylinders there is always the problem of collecting the exhaust gas and disposing of it properly (in the road vehicle scenario). - not so bad up in an aircraft!
The prototype Wankel also suffered from this problem till they changed it to a stationary housing (but that's another story I guess).

Always seemed to me that this idea could have done with the barrels being connected by a bevel gear to keep them aligned to each other and also to facilitate a power take off (it's a very awkward layout otherwise).

Then as always, that's only my opinion! :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

Here is a few to add to the arrow leader file
336894336895336896336897336898

[husaberg]

More leader arrow here is the Herman Meier TT bike biuild story
336899336900336901336902

Plus some other stuff that have been posted including crank pics etc
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1130977214&highlight=ariel#post1130977214
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1130978259&highlight=ariel#post1130978259
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131009746&highlight=Herman+Meier#post1131009746
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131009828&highlight=arrow#post1131009828
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155906-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130474024&highlight=arrow#post1130474024 (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155906-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130474024&highlight=arrow#post1130474024)
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130202276#post1130202276
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130202434#post1130202434

[WilDun]

Thanks for all that info from you guys and that article from Hermann Meier himself puts to rest some of the misconceptions I had - the main one being the suitability of the crowded roller big end bearings - I never would have believed that they could have lasted a TT race! For those days, those guys were cutting edge engineers and tuners and were able to do well even with the "not so great" stuff they had to start off with and being able to be successful without any really drastic modification, just by incrimental improvement and commonsense - almost as good as the guys on ESE! ;)

Anyway, the good old Arrow still looks great to me!

[husaberg]

Thanks for all that info from you guys and that article from Hermann Meier himself puts to rest some of the misconceptions I had - the main one being the suitability of the crowded roller big end bearings - I never would have believed that they could have lasted a TT race! For those days, those guys were cutting edge engineers and tuners and were able to do well even with the "not so great" stuff they had to start off with and being able to be successful without any really drastic modification, just by incrimental improvement and commonsense - almost as good as the guys on ESE! ;)

Anyway, the good old Arrow still looks great to me!

If you believe jennings prior to the advent of silver plated cadges crowded could be better.


Two Stroke TUNER’S HANDBOOK 26
Piston acceleration at high speeds is also applied to the bearing cage, and it may shatter under the strain - which sends a shower of particles from the broken cage and loose needles down into the crankcase. The debris thus liberated invariably gets pumped up through the transfer ports, into the cylinder, and more often than not a roller will get trapped hanging half out of a port by the piston with dire consequences to both. Yamaha's TD1 was particularly prone to small end bearing cage failures, and I learned the hard way to replace these bearings if I saw over 11,000 rpm on the tachometer even for a moment, for their cages required only a moment's battering before cracks would start to spread and outright disintegration soon followed even if I indulged in no more excursions past the red-line. This difficulty has been overcome with cages made of tougher material; it is possible to accomplish the same thing by using crowded needles and no cage at all, which does require that a washer be fitted on each side of the connecting rod, to take up clearance so that the rollers cannot escape. Getting the thing assembled (with the roller glued in place with grease) is enough to make strong men weep with frustration, but it absolutely insures reliability at this point in the engine and is a measure worth remembering if problems with broken wrist-pin bearing cages do occur. McCulloch, the chain-saw people, have used an arrangement similar to the one just described for years, but they have reasons other than simply working around bearing cage failures at the wrist-pin end of the rod. It was discovered at McCulloch that failures at the crankpin bearing were traceable to the thrust washers most manufacturers of twostroke engines use to center the rod on the crankpin. These washers usually are made of brass, or steel with a copper coating, and they do not find high rubbing speeds and scanty lubrication at all agreeable. At very high crankshaft speeds, they register their protest by overheating, and this causes a rise in temperature all around the connecting rod's big end, which thins the oil present enough to create yet more friction, more overheating, until at last the thrust washers, roller bearing and cage are hot enough to “flash” the oil. At that point, lubrication is nil and friction quickly melts the bearing cage and wears flats on the rollers. McCulloch's engineers reasoned that the point of failure could be pushed upward materially simply by removing the thrust washers, which is what they did. Of course, the connecting rod still had to be centered over the crank, but this task was given to a pair of thrust washers up inside the piston. The improvement in terms of elevating the McCulloch kart engine's maximum crank speed was in the order of 1500 rpm, and it is worth noting that Yamaha borrowed this idea for use in the 17,000 rpm GP engines thecompany raced in 1968. It is interesting that in those engines, the piston rings were only 0.6mm in thickness. Crankpin bearing failures also stem from the use of excessively heavy bearing cages. Sheer rotational speed is not enough to burst a cage of such small diameter and mass, but the fact that the cage must accelerate and decelerate, relative to the crankpin as the connecting rod swings, will cause difficulties unless the bearing cage is very light. In effect, the rollers must push the cage up to speed and then slow it, and if the cage has enough inertia it will resist this pushing and pulling enough to skid the rollers - at which point they momentarily become a plain bearing - a job for which they are poorly constituted. The skidding rollers generate a lot of heat, through friction, and the heat leads the bearing into the same deteriorating cycle to outright failure as was outlined for the thrust washers. Most modern engines have steel crankpin bearing cages, copper- or tin-plated to provide a low-friction surface to bear against the rollers, crankpin and connecting rod eye. These replace the phosphor - bronze cages of the recent past - which replaced the inelegant aluminum and brass cages of a yet-earlier era. But the best current “big-end” bearing cages are made of titanium and silver-plated. Experimenters with near-unlimited funds may like to try titanium bearing cages, but when having them made they should know that the bearing retaining slots must be machined with edges parallel to within 1/200 with each other and with the crankpin (assuming a parallel condition between cage and crankpin axis). It is not a job for someone with a bench-vise and a file. On the other hand, if employing silver-plated titanium cages and moving the thrust washers from the crankpin to the piston will elevate your engine's red-line by 2000 rpm, then they clearly will pay dividends in horsepower - if port-timing, etc., is adjusted correspondingly.
http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf

[husaberg]

Kev
Stepped pins
https://www.cycleworld.com/how-does-stress-concentration-affect-stepped-crankpin-in-motorcycle

[guyhockley]

If the Jap stuff hadn't taken over completely, I'm sure someone would have come up with rotary valves on an Arrow (maybe someone did?).
There are a couple of disc valve Arrows over here, at least that I know of. One is claimed to have been done in period, the other is an ongoing project.
There are a few reedvalvers around, too. A set of converted cases went for £200 on eBay fairly recently.
I've seen a picture of a water-cooling version. A mate of mine offered up my TZ250 barrel to his engine and the bore centres of the Ariel are much closer together. Obviously so, when you think about the main bearing setups, but not a lot of room for decent transfers.
Then there are various triple and four cylinder Ariel's kicking around... They do seem to inspire tinkering, pity mine got stolen!

[guyhockley]

Husa, have you already posted any stuff about 3, 4, or more cylinder Ariels? Think we've had the V12 on a Kiwibiker thread.
On one of the posts you linked to, you asked if anyone had seen an Excelsior twin or triple.
When I worked in the bike shop, we had a customer who "liked" 2 strokes, enjoyed tinkering, and nowadays would probably be diagnosed OCD.
He had a succession of bikes and then started getting earache from 'er indoors about more comfort, bla, bla, bla...
He bought a Berkley three wheeler with the 2 stroke twin engine, which became a triple fairly quickly.
It was a beautiful job, really nicely done. He took me for a (frightening) ride in it, and, given who/what he was it was turbine smooth and ran perfectly.
Couple of amusing follow ups, I had nothing to do the engine, but, small town, I knew where all the homers had been done. Year or so later, working at the artificial leg factory (yes, really!), a young kid started there who turned out to be matey's nephew. According to him the Bekeley was a 1200, had a Mini crankshaft(!) and other amazing "facts".
Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....

PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?

[husaberg]

Husa, have you already posted any stuff about 3, 4, or more cylinder Ariels? Think we've had the V12 on a Kiwibiker thread.
On one of the posts you linked to, you asked if anyone had seen an Excelsior twin or triple.
When I worked in the bike shop, we had a customer who "liked" 2 strokes, enjoyed tinkering, and nowadays would probably be diagnosed OCD.
He had a succession of bikes and then started getting earache from 'er indoors about more comfort, bla, bla, bla...
He bought a Berkley three wheeler with the 2 stroke twin engine, which became a triple fairly quickly.
It was a beautiful job, really nicely done. He took me for a (frightening) ride in it, and, given who/what he was it was turbine smooth and ran perfectly.
Couple of amusing follow ups, I had nothing to do the engine, but, small town, I knew where all the homers had been done. Year or so later, working at the artificial leg factory (yes, really!), a young kid started there who turned out to be matey's nephew. According to him the Bekeley was a 1200, had a Mini crankshaft(!) and other amazing "facts".
Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....

PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?

I think most of what i had or others had posted are those links are at the top of the page
Over here we call a job done at home or on the sly a "foreigner"
Someone (might have been you) posted the square four batam framed RG500 bottomed ended Arrow.
A few have posted the inline four sammy has, plus the one from the sidecar.

[WilDun]

.........................Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....
PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?

Yes, we also call them "homers" here too! I was well known for doing homers at work, I even built a bike there using their pipe benders, brazing equipment, etc. ( but not their crappy furniture tube) I used cold drawn seamless tube.
Fact is, I went to that furniture factory with the express purpose of learning to MIG weld and braze (bronze weld) and guess what we (it was a joint project with a mate) put in that frame, .... two Ariel Arrow engines!! - wasnt a howling success though, but fun!
I had many jobs in those young days (early twenties) all just to learn a few relevant skills for motorcycles, aircraft etc, - no I didn't build an aircraft, but I did a deal on a half finished one and when I told my then new wife about it, I very quickly had to go and tell the guy that I couldn't buy it "because of circumstances".

BTW, I probably told that story somewhere before (that's what happens when you start to get doddery!).

And there was the time when ...................................
I forget :laugh:

Ah..... yes, I bought a Suzuki T20 in 1968 (which I thought was the fastest thing on the road) and a guy in a DKW triple 2 stroke (car that is - same engine as the SAAB) passed me on a straight road when I was going flat out! - bet it wasn't standard!

[guyhockley]

Re. uncaged little ends, again, the Bantam racing boys sometimes use a rod piston combo that has no small end bearing available so they use loose rollers - 54mm pistons @ 10,000-12,000rpm.
At least some Rotax Microlight engines used loose rollers, too. Doesn't mean they're good for big ends, though!

[ken seeber]

Years ago, the main 2 stroke outboards, OMC and Mercury, used crowded roller for the piston pin (little end) and because they used a one piece crank, they used a fracture split rod and a split (2 piece) big end cage. This was either some polyamide (Torlon) or polyimide injection moulding. These were very reliable. A crowded roller can take lots of load, but just doesn't like the rubbing between rollers at high speed.

[guyhockley]

Don't know if this link will work from Jacindaland or if ebay's algorithm will mess it up;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ariel-Arrow-engine-/312121064093?hash=item48abdd7a9d%3Ag%3AQ2gAAOSwMo9 a5agG&nma=true&si=QbIR0o3QYBf4HneZIV6dq0y9PXo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Also,
http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7105

From The Ariel Owners Club Forum - Two Strokes;
http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=20&sid=ff35184fde89459a08164a3b17a5bbb8

[guyhockley]

because they used a one piece crank, they used a fracture split rod and a split (2 piece) big end cage.

McCulloch kart engines were the same, weren't they?

In the UK lots of people got their knickers in a twist when Suzuki 250 twins were homologated for Class IV karts so I was a little surprised when I googled "reed Valve Ariel Arrow" to find a vintage kart site that said Ariels were homologated in 1966. But it went on to say that they were easily outperformed by the spanish singles so I guess it wasn't such a problem.

[guyhockley]

To break it up a bit, here's a modified Ariel :lol:

[guyhockley]

As easy as 3, 4, 6?

[guyhockley]

A few random bits

[guyhockley]

So, this letter appeared (I think) in Classic Racer

A while before, I had met a gentleman called Rob Edwards at a Belgian Classic Road race. He was racing the Arrow below. Single carb and 4 speed "because I'm a traditionalist". Still had an uprated primary drive and barrels, though...
Anyway, when he wasn't trying to sell me his number 2 bike - Arrow engine in a CZ/Jawa "banana" frame(!?), he told me he had a triple with proper racing provenance. He was also mates with Ron at Fahron, the source of his Arrow ali racing cylinders, so I guess it's the same bike. Rob seems to have almost no internet presence and I lost touch with him so just a guess.
Rob had a variety of "merch", the picture that says "Lone Gunman Racing" was one of his postcards and he gave me a pen that was printed with, "Ariel Arrow - Smoking at its best".

I didn't get a picture of the CZAriel (ArrowCZ? ArrCZ? JAWAriel? Jel?)

[guyhockley]

I'm done with what I've got for Ariels, but there is this

[guyhockley]

Chopped up because the book was too big for the scanner!

[WilDun]

Thanks guys for all the Arrow stuff, - still think it is a great looking bike, never loses it's appeal to me!

Looking at the Adler reminds me of being out at the Pukekohe racetrack (near Auckland) around 1970 and I was talking to an old English guy (in his seventies I guess - about the same age as I am now) - he said he came from Buxton (Derbyshire?). He had come to watch the racing on his Adler twin, unfortunately I never got to see it - they weren't well known out here, I have never seen one anyway.
Some people tried to say that the Ariel arrow (engine) was copied from the Adler, well I guess it was - ie in the same way as a BSA twin was a copy of a Triumph twin!
:rolleyes:

[husaberg]

Thanks guys for all the Arrow stuff, - still think it is a great looking bike, never loses it's appeal to me!

Looking at the Adler reminds me of being out at the Pukekohe racetrack (near Auckland) around 1970 and I was talking to an old English guy (in his seventies I guess - about the same age as I am now) - he said he came from Buxton (Derbyshire?). He had come to watch the racing on his Adler twin, unfortunately I never got to see it - they weren't well known out here, I have never seen one anyway.
Some people tried to say that the Ariel arrow (engine) was copied from the Adler, well I guess it was - ie in the same way as a BSA twin was a copy of a Triumph twin!
:rolleyes:
The original Yamaha twins were copied from the Adler.
336970336971
The leader arrow was an improvement has it didn't have a crank mounted clutch

Coincidently the leader arrow designer Val page designed the first Triumph twin.
he also designed the First A7 BSA

I am not sure but i think tha adlers might have had a Hirth coupling on the crank?
he checks yip
http://www.adlermotorcycles.com/MyImages/CORRECT%20CRANK%20ASSEMBLY%20WITH%20PART%20No.jpg

[guyhockley]

Vaguely connected to all this, I saw a picture in a Dutch or Belgian magazine of a Hungarian bloke who'd made a Pannonia 4, don't know if that's from 4 singles or 2 twins but it looked a bit like the Yankee/Ossa 1000 engine.
I didn't think I'd ever heard of Pannonias (Pannonias?) but my father in law has a 1966 magazine at his house and "Snide and Shark" were advertising a batch at knock down prices.

http://www.prideandclarkelondon.com/heritage/

[WilDun]

The leader arrow was an improvement has it didn't have a crank mounted clutch.............
.........Coincidently the leader arrow designer Val page designed the first Triumph twin.
he also designed the First A7 BSA.............
........ tha adlers might have had a Hirth coupling on the crank?

Ariel went on the cheap with the taper and key replacing the hirth coupling - but it worked ok (to a degree) I guess!
NSU and the Japs were already using primary gears etc then and I wouldn't think that Val Page would have missed all the trends, I reckon his hands were tied!

The Suzuki T10 engine looks suspiciously like the Adler too - I believe it had the old 52 X 58 bore/stroke like the Bantam - several guys had a go at racing them, but they were totally outclassed by the T20 when it appeared! - 28BHP as opposed to the Arrow's 17 BHP, (dunno about the power of the T10 or the Adler). Admittedly with the T20, you had to change down a gear going into a headwind! - every gear on the six speed box was needed!

The Arrow had a bore/stroke of 54X54, like the MZ125 & 250 racers and the Suzuki T20. (and most 250's thereafter!).

I remember Hugh Anderson saying that he thought that the T20 looked kinda similar to the Suzuki twin racer (pre Degner) - after that, Degner's input changed everything drastically.

[Pursang]

In case you didn't see the link Flettner posted in the Foundry, here's more proof that the 2 stroke still has application in this rapidly changing world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g:shit:

cheers, Daryl.

[slofox]

In case you didn't see the link Flettner posted in the Foundry, here's more proof that the 2 stroke still has application in this rapidly changing world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g:shit:

cheers, Daryl.

I bet that would be a bouncy ride.

[WilDun]

In case you didn't see the link Flettner posted in the Foundry, here's more proof that the 2 stroke still has application in this rapidly changing world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g:shit:

cheers, Daryl.

Yeah, saw it, that is brilliant and a use for the two stroke of course but I doubt if that would last for long when they get lighter batteries and quiet motors or maybe just electric actuators!!
The progress in this area is mind blowing when you look at that thing and what it can do!

Does make you think though, could life on earth become very different? ie when these things (not necessarily Androids etc. but machines in general) get to a stage where they can design and reproduce themselves - that's probably nearer than many of us would think, with artificial intelligence progressing by leaps and bounds! - there have been factories working all by themselves for decades, which are only being monitored by a human.
They would be able to live in a more toxic environment than we live in with no oxygen as well (when we have polluted it completely) - maybe they would eventually come to the decision that we humans are no longer necessary because of the need for oxygen and the need to grow food........ a burden!
Why would these contraptions need to exist anyway?........ why do we need to exist? - to dig up the earth and produce gas I guess! that's really all we do! ( ie if we stand back and take a good look at it from a distance!).

Then again, I'm probably just being a silly old bastard!:rolleyes:

[190mech]

Like F5 Dave does,here is a musical interlude;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQB2-Kmiic

[husaberg]

oh well why not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0_r1Emui8

[WilDun]

If only I had known that you guys were so fond of song, I could have set my post to music and put it on You Tube! - I'm not great at singing, but then neither were those guys!
Sad thing is, I can remember that song like it was yesterday! :violin: (except in those days, it didn't sound that ridiculous).:no:

BTW, going through all the You tube music, starting off with the stuff you guys posted, I found this lady who I'd never heard of before, (you guys probably have) - she's originally Georgian (now British) and would you believe it, is married to James Toseland who was World Superbike champion and also a musician!
She's a fantastic singer! - a nice lady!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Melua

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaB714pidL8

[husaberg]

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo.htm
Harry Ricardo

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo2.jpghttp://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo5.jpghttp://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo7.jpg

[pete376403]

I bet that would be a bouncy ride.

The book "Farenheit 451" featured a mechanical hound used by the fire department. In that world books were illegal, the fire department started fires to burn books and the hound was to kill the book hoarders.

[husaberg]

Drawing of Hondas Half an oval piston 500 they designed for Freddie spencer.
Only Honda never asked if the FIM had intended to make them legal with the 1/2 NA formula.
337019337020

[guyhockley]

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo.htm
Harry Ricardo

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo2.jpghttp://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo5.jpghttp://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/misc/ricardo7.jpg

There are still lots of boats kicking around the south coast with Dolphin 2 Stroke Marine Engines but they are parallel twins developed from a motorbike engine and no connection with Ricardo's...

[guyhockley]

Drawing of Hondas Half an oval piston 500 they designed for Freddie spencer.
Only Honda never asked if the FIM had intended to make them legal with the 1/2 NA formula.


Scanned this from an old Performance Bikes mag but I never saw the earlier article they refer to and never seen any other reference to it...

Also got this from somewhere. Labelled "250 twin, 2 compound turbos = 230pk" May be the Honda?

[husaberg]

There are still lots of boats kicking around the south coast with Dolphin 2 Stroke Marine Engines but they are parallel twins developed from a motorbike engine and no connection with Ricardo's...

That's how I came about the article I was looking for a pic of the RCA engine.

[WilDun]

Scanned this from an old Performance Bikes mag but I never saw the earlier article they refer to and never seen any other reference to it...

Also got this from somewhere. Labelled "250 twin, 2 compound turbos = 230pk" May be the Honda?

I do remember an article about the main ring manufacturer in Britain being asked to make special "oval" rings for this machine I guess - They made them to the specs provided without batting an eyelid, no questions asked!
Just can't remember the name of the ring manufacturer! - who was that? - could it have been Hepworth & Grandage (Hepolite)? or Wellworthy?

[husaberg]

I do remember an article about the main ring manufacturer in Britain being asked to make special "oval" rings for this machine I guess - They made them to the specs provided without batting an eyelid, no questions asked!
Just can't remember the name of the ring manufacturer! - who was that? - could it have been Hepworth & Grandage (Hepolite)? or Wellworthy?

Unrelated but funny enough Soichiro Honda started off his Honda business making piston rings for Toyota.

[WilDun]

Like I said earlier on this thread (or was it the Foundry thread?) although racing is mostly good for the development of engines, sometimes racing rules hold up development up as well! and this has definitely happened with the 250cc twin.
Now the car manufacturers have caught on - strangely enough Suzuki are now using smaller engines with turbos and Honda hasn't followed suit!
Also Mazda is going even further with HCCI (and turbocharging). Racing rules are only for racing, but road vehicles benefit from racing and aren't held back when it comes to great innovations which would benefit both.
As in the case of that Honda twin.

[guyhockley]

That's how I came about the article I was looking for a pic of the RCA engine.

I got curious, turns out Dolphins are still made (yeah, yeah by mummy and daddy dolphins...)
This page has some of their bike origin stuff on it. I do remember the side exhausts, I think.

http://www.dolphinengines.co.uk/history.php

[Pursang]

A newish trend in commercial Diesel engine design is to operate at significantly lower RPM.

Power output is maintained by torque increase through high compression by compound turbocharging.

Benefits include: Mechanical efficiency through less friction and significantly reduced waste heat.
Combustion is more controlled and complete. Less noise and mechanical wear.

The Opposite of Racing Tech.

Cheers, Daryl.

[guyhockley]

Like I said earlier on this thread (or was it the Foundry thread?) although racing is mostly good for the development of engines, sometimes racing rules hold up development up as well! and this has definitely happened with the 250cc twin.
Now the car manufacturers have caught on - strangely enough Suzuki are now using smaller engines with turbos and Honda hasn't followed suit!
Also Mazda is going even further with HCCI (and turbocharging). Racing rules are only for racing, but road vehicles benefit from racing and aren't held back when it comes to great innovations which would benefit both.
As in the case of that Honda twin.

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/california-air-resources-board-carb-to-ban-turbochargers/

From the 1st April... :lol:

[guyhockley]

BBC just reported that one of the TT Zero electric bikes caught fire in the pits and it spread to an adjoining caravan.

[WilDun]

From the 1st April... :lol:

So that leaves Mazda up shit creek without a paddle! - Wonder if it was brought in intentionally to give GM etc a chance? Lets ban April 1 instead.


BBC just reported that one of the TT Zero electric bikes caught fire in the pits and it spread to an adjoining caravan.

Terrorism - that's what it is! - all the hallmarks of the anti electric brigade! :shit:

[Pursang]

I got curious, turns out Dolphins are still made (yeah, yeah by mummy and daddy dolphins...):clap:

Solid & clever design. Horizontal split cases solve lots of problems.
Looks like all 4 parts of the crankshaft could be machined from the one forging, too.

Pity the major British bike manufacturers stuck with their mostly 1930's designs.
With some some support and development (a couple more transfers and a unit gearbox, then the water cooling) this could have been a real winner.

Of course, my Old Mate Don would say that's because Britain wore out most of their equipment, skills and money during the war. Germany & Japan got 'sponsored' to rebuild their industries with the best new machinery & technology. Lose the War and won the Battle.

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Pity the major British bike manufacturers stuck with their mostly 1930's designs............
......... that's because Britain wore out most of their equipment, skills and money during the war. Germany & Japan got 'sponsored' to rebuild their industries with the best new machinery & technology. Lose the War and won the Battle. Cheers, Daryl.

Exactly! ........ on top of having to fend for themselves with left over equipment , they had to hand over all their best (and leading edge) technology to the US to pay off the equipment they acquired from them during WW2.

Can't complain though, they needed the help and got it and a lot of young Americans lost their lives in the Pacific war with Japan, also in Europe - The Russians also had to pay, big time!
Japan and Germany got help with their industry and recovered - if they hadn't been able to recover, think of the mess the world would have been in! - but Japan and Germany (so it would appear) needed help first.

Nobody ever wins wars and most of us lost relatives and friends!

Sorry there I go again:facepalm:

[guyhockley]

Hey, Will, so Suzuki 250s are better than Ariel Arrows, are they?
Read it and weep! :bleh:

[WilDun]

Hey, Will, so Suzuki 250s are better than Ariel Arrows, are they?
Read it and weep! :bleh:

Ah, well, you see,:oi-grr: you can bet that it's not even remotely like the one Val Page designed all those years ago (and of course the Suzuki would be bog standard :rolleyes:) - judging by the speeds!

Despite loving the Suzuki and racing it a bit, I still loved the Ariel! :)

[husaberg]

Hey, Will, so Suzuki 250s are better than Ariel Arrows, are they?
Read it and weep! :bleh:
Id wonder how much that had to do with the well tuned Mr Hose.
He used to piss all the others off years ago with a well tatty pretty stock K4.

[ken seeber]

Hey, Will, so Suzuki 250s are better than Ariel Arrows, are they?
Read it and weep! :bleh:

Jeez, I'd like to have a look inside the cylinder. One exhaust and 2 transfers ??

As to something different, here's how to make an engine block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Oynch2A-0

Clever, but couldn't see them machining in the transfers though..

[Pursang]

Unrelated but funny enough Soichiro Honda started off his Honda business making piston rings for Toyota.

F X 'Paco' Bulto also had a piston ring company before Montesa & Bultaco.

[Pursang]

As to something different, here's how to make an engine block.

Clever, but couldn't see them machining in the transfers though..

Wow, that make chips fly.

As far as transfers go, I've got a Bultaco Cylinder that looks like the transfers were CNC'd.
Pretty tidy and the errors & over-cuts are Exactly the same on both sides.

Cheers Daryl

[ken seeber]

Daryl,
Are you talking about the machining of the ports in the liner, or the total passage, (which I reckon would be an ask of any CNC setup, despite 5 axis and some super thin shanked spherical cutter).
I do remember years ago in Cycle Word saying Bert Greeves (in the Silverstone era) had some snazzy machine to cut the ports in the liners. No pics though. I'd imagine it was some sort of a rotary copy machine.

[husaberg]

F X 'Paco' Bulto also had a piston ring company before Montesa & Bultaco.

Old man Honda sold his what was left of his ring making equipment to Toyota after his factory was bombed.
its interesting that Toyota only choose to collaborate with Yamaha afterwards maybe that because Honda was making cars as well by then.
I believe Yamaha's first collaboration with Toyota was on the 2000GT which was in essence a overgrown XS650
http://www.classicyams.com/4-stroke/4-stroke/yamaha-xs1-development-story.htm

[guyhockley]

That was really interesting, I had thought they'd started with the Horex. Also fascinating that they used YR1 bits.

[guyhockley]

So, the title of this thread is "Oddball engines and prototypes".
You could argue that this is about THE prototype!
Too tedious to upload all 29 pages so just a sample and the whole thing is at;

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uv3encacgpez9fp/AADaI0z30lSUIjbz_4GerniDa?dl=0

Interesting that Cross is still going, I thought.
There is a lot of non technical, business related stuff.

[husaberg]

https://youtu.be/H_Vnxapd5fs
https://youtu.be/vGdT9w4ubLc
https://youtu.be/GqIapDKtvzc

All well and good but I don't think a sun dish would be all that useful in the Waikato, perhaps a rain dish? But what if?
Watch the video they did it by using a stirling engine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCdvAp5cow

[lohring]

The US navy had something similar happen at the dawn of the nuclear submarine era. The SSN Tullibee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tullibee_(SSN-597)), an electric drive submarine, was able to evade the sonar of the day and get close to aircraft carriers in many fleet exercises. Quiet has been one of the main submarine design goals ever since. The main noise sources are drive gearing and coolant pumps. Electric drives, direct turbine drives, and natural circulation reactors (SSN-671 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Narwhal_(SSN-671))) are some of the solutions that were tried. Shrouded propellers with special shapes to prevent cavitation are also critical. The hull is carefully streamlined to prevent flow separation. Even though it's been 50 years since I worked at Electric Boat, I bet today's US submarines can do the same thing as well as being able to stay at sea for months.

Lohring Miller

[guyhockley]

Jeez, I'd like to have a look inside the cylinder. One exhaust and 2 transfers ??

I'm sworn to secrecy...


Clever, but couldn't see them machining in the transfers though..

A company called Union Bay were advertising CNC barrels for snowmobiles and I wondered how the hell you could get a decent Transfer port. Split barrels seem to be the answer as done by Kiwibikers GPR:

http://www.gprnz.com/gpr011-2014.html

or the bloke with the two piece RD400 barrels
I saw an interview with the engineer from a spanish paramotor firm and everything on their engines was CNC Billet EXCEPT the cylinder because of the difficulty of machining the ports.

Of course, in "the old days"...

"Probably the most famous Wildcat conversions were their 5-port barrels. It would take Les an entire week of late nights in the workshop to modify a Lambretta barrel with two extra transfer ports, which remained visibly standard from the outside. First of all a barrel was dramatically overbored almost out to the original stud holes. Then Les would painstakingly carve two channels from the original transfer ports all around the inside of the barrel that ended up above the inlet port. After a lot of hunting around, Les had found a car cylinder liner (possibly for a Fiat 500 car) that could be machined to fit as a replacement liner inside the Lambretta barrel once cut with the new port layout (four transfers and a single exhaust port.Ian Newman recalls that fewer than 10 of these 5 port barrels were ever made. There were 200cc, 150cc, and even a 125cc Vega Lambretta barrels converted to 5 port, and possibly a Vespa SS 180 barrel as well. When one of the 5 port barrels found its way on to the race track in the 200cc Standards class, it performed a bit too well for the sports governing body and was promptly banned. As far as Ian Newman was concerned, the racers banning the 5 port couldn't have been better. He immediately placed adverts in the scooter magazines with 'The barrel they banned from racing' plastered all over it., and this drew lots of attention and business to Wildcat. Manufacture of the 5 port barrels was never commercially viable anyway because making them was so labour intensive, and while results with these kits were very good, it was not beyond what was obtainable with regular porting work."

[husaberg]

The US navy had something similar happen at the dawn of the nuclear submarine era. The SSN Tullibee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tullibee_(SSN-597)), an electric drive submarine, was able to evade the sonar of the day and get close to aircraft carriers in many fleet exercises. Quiet has been one of the main submarine design goals ever since. The main noise sources are drive gearing and coolant pumps. Electric drives, direct turbine drives, and natural circulation reactors (SSN-671 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Narwhal_(SSN-671))) are some of the solutions that were tried. Shrouded propellers with special shapes to prevent cavitation are also critical. The hull is carefully streamlined to prevent flow separation. Even though it's been 50 years since I worked at Electric Boat, I bet today's US submarines can do the same thing as well as being able to stay at sea for months.

Lohring Miller

The other thing with that class was it was small.
The UK sent an aircraft carrier over here after the Falklands war
HMS Invincible 1983
As was traditional the invitation was there for a meet and greet war game introduction.
Even though the carriers crew knew the planes were coming and were on high alert.
Rather embarrassingly for the British fleet was the small 1950's RNZAF Skyhawks were able to sneak in and attack (sink) and then fly away.
https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/3/96500_1363504689.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwitv6_zubbbAhUGVrwKHXDSBlEQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jetphotos.com%2Fphoto%2F7579 426&psig=AOvVaw332xrcZlXeCI_VX1LKxL7-&ust=1528079430934664)
Seeing as we had the same aircraft as the Argentines had just prior in the Falklands war this was rather a rude wake up call for the Royal Navy.
The RNZAF was able to avoid detection by simply flying low at wave level with well trained and highly skilled pilots.

The A4s wee able to repeat this success in a great number of other international war games and were always able to out perform other much later generation aircraft.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2mpq9r


A4
In a world where the focus seems to shift daily from one technological wonder to another, the value of solid engineering—a design well thought-out and well executed—is too often overlooked. This is as true in jet aviation as it is anywhere else. Today more than ever it’s important to reflect on the work of pioneering aircraft designers, to better understand just what it takes to make a truly great airplane, then and now.
Ed Heinemann was once named by maverick designer Burt Rutan as among a handful of engineers who were the “pioneers who provided my inspiration.” I first came to appreciate Heinemann’s genius years ago as a young aerospace engineer, while I was conducting bench-marking studies for range and payload across a number of jet designs, the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk among them.

It’s easy to underestimate how phenomenal an accomplishment “Heinemann’s Hot Rod”—as the A-4 became known— truly was. By the time Heinemann conceived of the design, he had already proved his mettle with more than a dozen aircraft, leaving his distinctive imprint on virtually every fighter, strike aircraft or experimental airplane to come out of Douglas during the 1940s and ’50s. From the SBD Dauntless, which was instrumental in turning the tide at the Battle of Midway, to the experimental D-558-2 Skyrocket, which in November 1953 enabled Scott Crossfield to become the first man to fly at twice the speed of sound (see “Skyrocketing Through Mach 2,” January 2014), Heinemann’s team of engineers was a breed apart.
Known widely as “Mr. Attack Aviation,” Heinemann himself never completed a formal degree as an engineer. He rose through the ranks, first as a draftsman, then as an apprentice to and colleague of other legendary aircraft designers—Donald Douglas, Jack Northrop and Howard Hughes among them—before finally becoming Douglas Aircraft’s design engineering chief. He had learned engineering on the job, hands-on, and was widely recognized for his natural talent.

When the U.S. Navy first approved Douglas in January 1952 to design a new carrier-based strike jet, capable of carrying a 2,000-pound payload up to 300 nautical miles, with a maximum speed of 500 knots and a maximum takeoff weight of no more than 30,000 pounds, Heinemann confidently predicted that he could deliver the requested range and payload in an airplane that weighed less than half the Navy’s requirement, and with a top speed 90 knots faster. What he proposed seemed impossible—an airplane too good to be true. And when the Navy nonetheless signed a contract putting Heinemann’s confidence to the test, Admiral Thomas S. Combs emphasized in no uncertain terms that the strike jet was expected to meet all the Navy’s objectives, and that it also “absolutely must not exceed one million dollars per copy.” As time would prove, Heinemann’s team delivered on every one of those promises: range, payload, takeoff weight and cost.
How did Ed Heinemann succeed in doing what the experts of his day had not imagined was possible? Some new super-secret alloy? A secret engine? No, nothing so elaborate. Heinemann succeeded by applying the first principles of engineering and by merciless attention to detail. Every aspect, every element of the airplane was scrutinized to reduce weight. Every unnecessary redundancy was challenged.

After considering a sweptwing design, as was fashionable at the time, Heinemann’s team at El Segundo, Calif., selected a delta-wing configuration with a span short enough to avoid having to fold the wings to fit on a carrier deck. It also provided for maximum wing-root thickness, stiffness and fuel capacity. Eliminating the wing-folding mechanism alone saved an estimated 200 pounds. The airplane’s black boxes, including the communications, navigation, IFF and power supply systems, were consolidated into a single unit, for a weight savings of some 40 pounds. The Skyhawk’s ejection seat was similarly redesigned to eliminate a third of its parts, coming in at 58 pounds below the original weight estimate—less than half what the standard Navy ejection seat weighed. And when the subcontractor assigned to design the air conditioning system showed up at Heinemann’s door with a unit that was 20 pounds over target, he was told to come back when it met the required weight. The air conditioning unit eventually came in at 5 pounds below the weight that Heinemann’s team had allotted for that system.
When the first XA4D-1 rolled out of the assembly floor, it weighed 7,896 pounds, more than 270 pounds below the target empty weight that Douglas had signed up for. And when the Skyhawk finally reached production, the first 500 airplanes would cost an average of $860,000 each, well below the Navy’s $1 million upper limit.
Ed Heinemann’s guiding principles—simplifying every component to its bare minimum, combining functions into fewer components and designing direct load paths that maximized structural synergy—were reflected throughout the airplane. The main landing gear, for example, was anchored directly into the main wing spar, providing a straight load path between landing gear forces and the airframe. The main wing spars themselves were machined from a single forging, eliminating the need for fasteners between spar elements. And the skin of each wing was formed from a single sheet of aluminum, again eliminating the need for extra fasteners and maximizing structural strength.
The XA4D-1 first flew on June 22, 1954, with the last production aircraft rolling off the assembly line in February 1979. A total of 2,960 Skyhawks were produced during those 25 years. Heinemann’s team had shown the same dedication to simplification inside the cockpit that they had displayed throughout the structural design, reducing instrumentation by roughly two-thirds compared to the F3D Sky-night that had preceded it. As one pilot said of his first A-4 flight: “It scared me to death for the first half hour. I kept looking around the cockpit for something to do. But it was so simple to fly there really wasn’t much to do! I merely got in, started up, took off and enjoyed it.”
Despite its diminutive size, the Skyhawk quickly demonstrated its ability to carry far larger bombloads than the 2,000 pounds that the Navy had specified. Beginning with the A4D-5 (later A-4E) model, the external stores stations were increased from three hardpoints to five, upping external capacity to 8,200 pounds. The A-4E also introduced the Pratt & Whitney J52 engine, increasing available thrust from the 7,700 pounds of the original Westinghouse J65 engine to 8,500 pounds in the J52-P-6A. Later versions of the J52 produced even more thrust, eventually culminating in the A-4M/N models’ J52-P-408, which produced 11,200 pounds of thrust and increased the external weapons load to some 9,155 pounds. Not bad for a “light attack” jet. None of these later upgrades would have been possible, however, without the sound foundation established by Heinemann and his team so many years before.
To appreciate just how good the structural design of the A-4 really was, it’s useful to compare its empty weight to its maximum takeoff weight on a logarithmic basis (see chart, P. 33). Com parisons like this are routinely used in conceptual design, to gauge how heavy an airplane will need to be to perform its required mission. Drawing on the published literature, and comparing the A-4 to its peers across decades of jet aviation, it is readily apparent that the Skyhawk far exceeded the maximum takeoff weight that was considered the norm for a fighter -bomber of its size. When viewed in this fashion, only a handful of strike aircraft, developed decades after the A-4 and with the benefit of composites and other structural technologies unavailable when it was designed, would actually exceed the standard the Skyhawk set.

The A-4 formed the backbone of U.S. Navy and Marine Corps close air support and strike capabilities throughout the Vietnam War. Navy Skyhawk squadrons made 107 cruises to Southeast Asia, as compared to 84 for the F-4 Phantom. Assigned to the most dangerous attack missions, the Skyhawk also racked up the most combat losses, though only one fell to an enemy MiG. All the other losses were attributed to groundfire or SAMs. The Skyhawk also flew into battle with the Israeli Air Force in the course of three wars. Stunningly nimble when stripped of its bombload, it would serve for decades more in the adversary units providing opposition for the Navy’s “Top Gun” air combat training program. And in 1991—nearly 40 years after the first prototype flew—the A-4 would again serve in combat during Operation Desert Storm, as part of the Kuwait air force. The last TA-4 was not retired from active Navy service until May 2003, a testament to the enduring legacy of Heinemann’s design.
has been more than 20 years since I graduated with my degree in aerospace engineering. I’ve worked on many exciting programs, using materials that were not even envisioned when Ed Heinemann drew up the first plans for the A-4, and applying computer design tools that were never imagined in his day. Yet I still look back with admiration at what Heinemann and his El Segundo team accomplished. There are things I learned from the A-4 that I’ve carried with me throughout my career.
First, an airplane that is truly devoted to its task, whose design is not diluted by extraneous objectives, can achieve much and exceed all expectations. Second, I learned to be impressed more by results and less by titles. Heinemann’s skill and experience was worth more than a roomful of degrees. I also learned that big solutions begin with little thought experiments, sketched out on small pieces of paper. As Ed used to remind his staff at El Segundo: “Paper is cheap! When beginning a project, sketch out all your ideas and concepts. Dream a lot. Let your mind freewheel. You can’t go wrong, no matter how many sheets you fill out and toss into the wastebasket.” And above all, he understood that engineering is a team sport: “Aircraft development is an evolutionary process. What flies today is an outgrowth of what flew yesterday. The knowledge of aeronautics has flowed from a wide range of sources, and designers benefit from the efforts of others. No single person could do it all.”
The A-4 was a remarkable achievement that served the U.S. and its allies well in wartime and peace. As Heinemann himself wrote: “I believe that the aircraft’s most significant contribution revolves around how it proved that with diligent engineering, hard work, and continuing cooperation between builder and buyer, wonders can be worked. Wonders that last a very long time.”

[husaberg]

How to make 11,000hp - Don Schumacher Racing //FT015


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqH57-qJc9Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqH57-qJc9Q

The supercharger dyno is well worth a look and a listen
337114337115

[Pursang]

Daryl,
Are you talking about the machining of the ports in the liner, or the total passage, (which I reckon would be an ask of any CNC setup, despite 5 axis and some super thin shanked spherical cutter).
I do remember years ago in Cycle Word saying Bert Greeves (in the Silverstone era) had some snazzy machine to cut the ports in the liners. No pics though. I'd imagine it was some sort of a rotary copy machine.

Hi Ken, definitely been a cnc type cutter in the actual passages, scars to prove it.
My regular camera can't focus well enough to show it.
I will try to get some shots with my endoscope and post them up.

cheers, Daryl.

[Michael Moore]

Cobra, who make some mini MX bikes/engines, have an interesting two-part cylinder. The lower section is shrunk in after all the CNC work on the tops of the transfers is done. This gives them full machining access to the transfers.

cheers,
Michael

[guyhockley]

Cobra, who make some mini MX bikes/engines, have an interesting two-part cylinder. The lower section is shrunk in after all the CNC work on the tops of the transfers is done. This gives them full machining access to the transfers.

cheers,
Michael

I suppose an early version of this would be those 2 stroke cylinders with bolt on transfer port covers.

Then there's the alternative approach.

[Frits Overmars]

Cobra, who make some mini MX bikes/engines, have an interesting two-part cylinder. The lower section is shrunk in after all the CNC work on the tops of the transfers is done. This gives them full machining access to the transfers.Two-part? Are you saying there is no sleeve? I wonder what the piston ring might think of that.
This reminds me of the two-part Garelli cylinders that Jan Thiel used on the flow bench. One cylinder was turned down on the inside, another one on the outside,
so that together they were a sliding fit; ideal for port and duct experiments.
337164 337163 337165

[guyhockley]

Husa, while looking for something else on my hard drive, I came across these. No idea where they came from, though!

[Michael Moore]

Frits, it appears they shrink the upper and lower sections together and then do the finish bore, plating and final hone. The cylinder is treated as one-piece after assembly and is not to be disassembled. They say "the lower transition line is located such that the piston ring remains above it at all times." They use that only on a UAV engine now, it was too expensive for the production 65cc MX engine.

cheers,
Michael

[guyhockley]

Posted a picture from this article on the ESE thread so I thought I might as well stick the full thing here. Don't think any finished bikes ever actually materialised.
Supposed to be wet sump, recirculating oil, oil seal on big ends, dry top end using carbon pistons...

[190mech]

Appears to be a typical 2 stroke bottom end,with sealed/pressure lubed bearings,,wonder about the small end bearing?Couldnt figure out the cog belt drive on the front of the engine,perhaps a rotary valve and that small pump also??
Wonder how well the top end would hold up with no oiling and that magic carbon piston??

[guyhockley]

Cog belts to twin front-facing disc valves via a shock absorbing mechanism that allows for a certain amount of timing change.
One of the microlight UAV engine manufacturers was offering carbon pistons as a "never sieze" option. I thought it was Hirth but no mention of it on their current website that I could see from a quick look just now

[guyhockley]

ITMA! More Bradshaw.

[guyhockley]

One more Bradshaw bit

[husaberg]

Hello Guy find some stuff on this one i know it has a cross head crankshaft and i thing a stuffing piston.


Here's a real oddball, Excalibur, by Major John Treen. This was proposed as a 'world beater' in the 60s, it was to be funded by sale of raffle tickets, but I guess they didn't manage to sell enough tickets.

In about 1967 I won quite a few books of the raffle tickets, along with a nice Bulova watch, which was presented to me by Freddy Frith, for correctly predicting 1st 2nd and 3rd in the Senior Manx Grand Prix .

I always wondered what happened to Excalibur, and was surprised to find this exhibit at the Sammy Miller museum in England.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=322603&d=1467075181

There was talk of it in a book I read with hopes of 40-50 hp at some astonishingly high revs in 125 form.
I posted something about it on ESE but no one could add much or had heard of it..
I think he swallowed a whole heap of lottery development funds for his project world beater.........

[guyhockley]

Well I've seen it! I think your link is actually to a picture I took at Sammy Miller's (from Michael Moore's Eurospares site?).
At that point it was stashed above a doorway so hard to get a good look at it and no-one seemed to know anything about it.

[husaberg]

Well I've seen it! I think your link is actually to a picture I took at Sammy Miller's (from Michael Moore's Eurospares site?).
At that point it was stashed above a doorway so hard to get a good look at it and no-one seemed to know anything about it.
Wooley mentioned it in a Classic bike or racer column, but only in passing.
why original understanding was he had a 125 running, but i don't believe the HP claims.
plenty of world beater claims came out of GB at the time, i read something recently where Williams can't even remember riding the KRM350.

[ken seeber]

So, nothing too tangible and it says four (foul, hey Frits?) strokes and not the number of cylinders, probably only relevant to one or two, but it is something of interest:

https://newatlas.com/electromagnetic-flywheel-engine/55254/

It might be interesting for 2 strokes in terms of altering the crank rotational timing such that a fixed length exhaust system (ie 99%) might be more useful over a wider rpm band.

[guyhockley]

Wooley mentioned it in a Classic bike or racer column, but only in passing.
why original understanding was he had a 125 running, but i don't believe the HP claims.
plenty of world beater claims came out of GB at the time, i read something recently where Williams can't even remember riding the KRM350.
I've got nothing on it as far as I know (away from home and hard drive at the moment) but I did have a search online in case doing it from the UK brought up something you didn't get.
Different picture on South Bay Riders forum - quite grainy.
Few odd mentions here and there but nothing useful.
Lots of links to the modern Polish version and some to an Australian one.
Somebody on a Formula 1 site said they'd read a proposal for a 32 cylinder car version!

Local bike shop cafe has a pile of books for customers to read, one of them is Peter William's "Designed to Race". I'll have a look next time I'm in.

[husaberg]

I've got nothing on it as far as I know (away from home and hard drive at the moment) but I did have a search online in case doing it from the UK brought up something you didn't get.
Different picture on South Bay Riders forum - quite grainy.
Few odd mentions here and there but nothing useful.
Lots of links to the modern Polish version and some to an Australian one.
Somebody on a Formula 1 site said they'd read a proposal for a 32 cylinder car version!

Local bike shop cafe has a pile of books for customers to read, one of them is Peter William's "Designed to Race". I'll have a look next time I'm in.

Most active thread on KB at the moment.......well it was untl yesterday

[husaberg]

337425
lanchester twin crank engine

England’s Lanchester Motor Company was founded in 1899. The firm’s Lanchester Ten, introduced a year later, featured an air-cooled, twin-crankshaft, 4.0-liter flat-twin driving the rear wheels. One crank lived above the other, and each piston had three connecting rods—two light outer ones and a heavier one in the center. The light rods went to one crank, the heavy rods to the other, and the two shafts counterrotated. The result was 10.5 hp at 1250 rpm and a remarkable lack of vibration.

From the patent

A contra-rotating twin crankshaft system for internal combustion engines. Two crankshafts are arranged in parallel, and are connected together to rotate in opposite directions. At least one piston is spaced from the crankshafts. Connecting rod assemblies extend in a crossed relationship from each crankshaft to two spaced wrist pins at the piston. Preferably, one connecting rod assembly is made up of two spaced connecting rods and the other is a single connecting rod which passes between the two spaced connecting rods to form the crossing relationship. If desired, the dual connecting rod assembly may be two spaced single connecting rods or have one connecting rod in the form of a fork, with the single connecting rod passing between the tines of the forked connecting rod.
1. A contra-rotating twin crankshaft system for internal combustion engines which comprises:
two substantially parallel first and second crankshafts;
drive means for causing said crankshafts to rotate substantially identically in opposite directions;
at least one piston spaced from said crankshafts;
first and second, substantially parallel, wrist pins secured to each said piston;
first and second connecting rod means extending between said first and second crankshafts and said first and second wrist pins, respectively, with said connecting rod means in a crossed relationship.



2. The contra-rotating twin crankshaft system according to claim 1 wherein each of said connecting rod means comprises a single elongated member fastened to one of said wrist pins and to a crank pin on one of said crankshafts.


3. The contra-rotating twin crankshaft system according to claim 1 wherein said drive means comprises a gear attached to each crankshaft for rotation about an axis of rotation of said crankshaft, said gears meshed to rotate together in opposite directions.


4. The contra-rotating twin crankshaft system according to claim 1 wherein said first connecting rod means consists of two spaced, substantially parallel rods and said second connecting rod means consists of a single rod arranged so that said second rod passes between said two first rods.


5. The contra-rotating twin crankshaft system according to claim 1 wherein said first connecting rod means has a forked configuration with a single first end connected to said first crankshaft and spaced second ends connected to a said wrist pin and said second connecting rod extends between said spaced second ends of said first connecting rod.


6. In an internal combustion engine having at least two cylinders, a piston movable in each said cylinder, crankshaft means spaced from each said piston, first and second, substantially parallel, wrist pins secured to each said piston and first and second connecting rod means extending from said respective wrist pins to said crankshaft means so that linear movement of each of said pistons is converted into rotary movement at said crankshaft means, the improvement comprising:
said crankshaft means comprising a pair of spaced substantially parallel first and second crankshafts;
means for coupling said crankshafts together for rotation in opposite directions; and
said first and second connecting rod means extending from each of said respective first and second crankshafts to said first and second wrist pins, respectively, with said first and second connecting rod means in a crossed relationship.



7. The improvement according to claim 6 wherein said coupling means includes a gear means secured to each said crankshaft with said gear means meshed together.


8. The improvement according to claim 6 wherein each of said first and second connecting rod means is a single elongated member connected between a crankshaft and a said wrist pin with said elongated members spaced closely adjacent to each other.


9. The improvement according to claim 6 wherein said first connecting rod means comprises two parallel spaced elongated members and said second connecting rod means comprises a single elongated member positioned between said two parallel spaced elongated members.


10. The improvement according to claim 6 wherein said first connecting rod means has a forked configuration with a single first end connected to said first crankshaft and spaced second ends connected to a said wrist pin and said second connecting rod means is a single elongated member extending between said spaced second ends of said first connecting rod.


11. The improvement according to claim 10 wherein said second connecting rod means has a flattened, blade-like configuration.



some other stuff
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-1946/13/genius-lanchester

[pete376403]

337425
lanchester twin crank engine


From the patent

some other stuff
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-1946/13/genius-lanchester
Similar concepts to the Neander diesel (twin contra rotating cranks, two rods per piston)

[husaberg]

Similar concepts to the Neander diesel (twin contra rotating cranks, two rods per piston)

reading the text it looks like it could have up to three?
I only see two in pic

[pete376403]

reading the text it looks like it could have up to three?
I only see two in pic


The contra-rotating twin crankshaft system according to claim 1 wherein said first connecting rod means consists of two spaced, substantially parallel rods and said second connecting rod means consists of a single rod arranged so that said second rod passes between said two first rods.

Would make for a lot of weight flying around in there

[Michael Moore]

Here's some info on Treen's projects

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/Treen/

[guyhockley]

Guazzoni tandem twin Class 1 kart engine (100cc). Early 60s, maybe?
The internet says the factory took half of it to build a racing 50.

[guyhockley]

Back when it was shiny and new. Don't think those are FOSpipe exhausts...
Presumably it's a 180° twin with both cranks rotating backwards.

[Grumph]

Looked at in position on the kart, you'd swear it was a 250...

Bronze bushed small ends I note. I'd seen it mentioned in a couple of books but never seen pics. Interesting.

[Frits Overmars]

Guazzoni tandem twin Class 1 kart engine (100cc).

Looked at in position on the kart, you'd swear it was a 250.
Thou shalt not swear Grumph, but you're close: it's a 200 cc twin, with one aircooled cylinder and one.... yeah, right :msn-wink:.
337505

[Grumph]

I'd forgotten the odd capacity classes run back then. Twin 100cc McCullochs were a popular choice here at the time.

I think you mean "and one cylinder cuddled up for quick warmups"....
Both are effectively mixture cooled anyway.

[husaberg]

Millyard Famous for his massive v twin his little v twins his numerous Kawaski 4's 5 etc his v12 Kawasaki and many more
here is some others i had not seen.
337526337527337528337529337530337531

[husaberg]

Some more
337532337533337534337535337536337537

[husaberg]

And some more
337538337539337540337541337542

[husaberg]

The Kawa LC 500 4
337543337544337545

[guyhockley]

Pity whoever did the photo captions doesn't know the difference between camshafts and crankshafts!

[husaberg]

Pity whoever did the photo captions doesn't know the difference between camshafts and crankshafts!
I fixed one could be bothered with the rest.

[ken seeber]

Hooser, brilliant articles by Millyard. Well done.
What a legend. Could only have been bettered if it was a 2 stroke...:yes::yes::yes:

[guyhockley]

Two videos that make an interesting pairing.
First, Mr Sweary from Yorkshire with a vintage tool:

https://youtu.be/E7TA4XogKtQ

Then a bloke from Asia for who that would be a bit high tech;

https://youtu.be/g6kZoxItnrQ

[husaberg]

Hooser, brilliant articles by Millyard. Well done.
What a legend. Could only have been bettered if it was a 2 stroke...:yes::yes::yes:
only 9 hours to make a 5 with basic handtools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlfHXvV68yk

[ken seeber]

only 9 hours to make a 5 with basic handtools.

Again, he's a legend.

BTW Hooser, are you turning ?????:laugh:

[husaberg]

Again, he's a legend.

BTW Hooser, are you turning ?????:laugh:
Not to kawasakis and i swapped my two FZR250 engines to Grumph.
I did buy a GT380 engine the other day though.
I need another half of one to make a V4 crank though.
Interesting things those GT250 and GT380's
the cranks on both lend themselves to adding on extra cylinders
the GT250 ones have just a plain slip in pin joining canks (part13 in the pic)
337564
the GT380s have a male and female fitting
337563
To make single crank V4 out of a GT250 would require three cranks though.
What i like about them is they have 54mm strokes and std size pins 20mm and nice long rods 110mm which is unlike suzukis of that era
The center shaft on both is 25mm which means RD200 lab seals will fit and the other bearings are std size for rollers or balls 25x52mm ie KTM sized nu205
Neither appears indexed on splines ala rd250 like i would have thought.
337565
maybe they have indexing pins like a Kawasaki?
i just need to convince Flet that building a V4 crankcase tp go with the Aprilia copy cylinders is a good idea

[guyhockley]

My brother-in-law is involved with a bloke importing classic bikes and spares from the USA to the UK. They've found some surprising differences between American and British bikes so no idea about NZ models, but;
There were several Sparton triple dnfs or drop offs in performance due to cranks twisting. I have an article about a Dutch owner who put Woodruff keys in his but then had further problems with "soft flywheels". Ian Read, the bloke with the RG250 barrelled GT380 seems to be running a bog stock crank, though...
Almost exactly 20 years ago I found a Barton top end so should have had first hand knowledge but sadly it wasn't to be.
Suzuki 250s have used various centre arrangements over here - some with 1 bearing and 2 oil-seals, some with 2 bearings and I'm pretty sure I remember one with a male female join like a RD but not sure about splines. Maybe dig around some more on CMSNL?
Is Phil Steggeman(?), the bloke who built the Suzuki 350 triple still around for advice? Think I got that right.
Any one got any engine pictures of his bike? To

[husaberg]

My brother-in-law is involved with a bloke importing classic bikes and spares from the USA to the UK. They've found some surprising differences between American and British bikes so no idea about NZ models, but;
There were several Sparton triple dnfs or drop offs in performance due to cranks twisting. I have an article about a Dutch owner who put Woodruff keys in his but then had further problems with "soft flywheels". Ian Read, the bloke with the RG250 barrelled GT380 seems to be running a bog stock crank, though...
Almost exactly 20 years ago I found a Barton top end so should have had first hand knowledge but sadly it wasn't to be.
Suzuki 250s have used various centre arrangements over here - some with 1 bearing and 2 oil-seals, some with 2 bearings and I'm pretty sure I remember one with a male female join like a RD but not sure about splines. Maybe dig around some more on CMSNL?
Is Phil Steggeman(?), the bloke who built the Suzuki 350 triple still around for advice? Think I got that right.
Any one got any engine pictures of his bike? To
Yeah the one posted was K,L,m ie RAM AIR another i seen has a Yamaha like set up (not sure re splines)
here it is here this is called the A,b Model 76 77
337581

the GT380 crank is a little narrower at 50mm accross the wheels vs 57mm for the GT250klm so the 250 would have more crankwheel to grip.
Some of the parts of the crankwheels go back to the T250 and T350.
The Sparton I feel would have been higher stressed as it had much bigger pistons as it was a 450+cc Triple.
Either way GP spec v4's have a crank life of 1000-2000 miles or about 12-24 hours at most.
TZ cranks are problematic with their bigger 32mm coupler as well, for other reasons as they crack the big end hole as their is too little metal to support it.E
ither way its pie in the sky stuff for me unless Flet was keen.

[Grumph]

There were two 350 triples built here. Jim Cashman built the C3 which was raced in the support class of the Marlboro Series. He cast his own piston port water cooled barrels. One of them featured on the Westoby bucket single I put up in the chassis thread ages ago.

The other I know less about. Built at Boyles in Wellington, I remember it as air cooled. It was in a Steve Roberts built TR250 frame with the usual Ceriani forks and brakes those had. Boyles were at the time the leading Suzuki tuners in NZ - and Keith Turner's TR500 used a Boyle engine to get runner up in the 500 World title. Geoff Perry nearly won Daytona with another Boyle engine.
I remember Dale Wylie riding it at a Hawkesbury meeting ( a country roads circuit ) and winning nearly everything.

Husa - Wallace is fighting his way through a batch of T250/T20 cranks at present.

[husaberg]

There were two 350 triples built here. Jim Cashman built the C3 which was raced in the support class of the Marlboro Series. He cast his own piston port water cooled barrels. One of them featured on the Westoby bucket single I put up in the chassis thread ages ago.

The other I know less about. Built at Boyles in Wellington, I remember it as air cooled. It was in a Steve Roberts built TR250 frame with the usual Ceriani forks and brakes those had. Boyles were at the time the leading Suzuki tuners in NZ - and Keith Turner's TR500 used a Boyle engine to get runner up in the 500 World title. Geoff Perry nearly won Daytona with another Boyle engine.
I remember Dale Wylie riding it at a Hawkesbury meeting ( a country roads circuit ) and winning nearly everything.

Husa - Wallace is fighting his way through a batch of T250/T20 cranks at present.

tell Wallace there is details of the RD crank conversion here
http://www.t20suzuki.com/racing.htm#TZcrank

[Muciek]

Btw, does anyone have that RD "e" crank and could measure the holes and their position on flywheel (radius of hole center and deegre specing)?

[Flettner]

Yeah the one posted was K,L,m ie RAM AIR another i seen has a Yamaha like set up (not sure re splines)
here it is here this is called the A,b Model 76 77
337581

the GT380 crank is a little narrower at 50mm accross the wheels vs 57mm for the GT250klm so the 250 would have more crankwheel to grip.
Some of the parts of the crankwheels go back to the T250 and T350.
The Sparton I feel would have been higher stressed as it had much bigger pistons as it was a 450+cc Triple.
Either way GP spec v4's have a crank life of 1000-2000 miles or about 12-24 hours at most.
TZ cranks are problematic with their bigger 32mm coupler as well, for other reasons as they crack the big end hole as their is too little metal to support it.E
ither way its pie in the sky stuff for me unless Flet was keen.

intetesting, im having this dilemma at the moment. My twin cylinder gyro engine center shaft is a press fit into the opposing crank wheels. This center shaft is hardened and has an output gear machined into it. This gear is clocked up and every bearing/seal surface ground concentric. This arrangment has twisted in the past with this fit perhaps being a bit lite. Lock tig welding has been applied and there has been no issues since (its been doing circuits) but thats a rough arse way (read desperate) can't sell them like that!
Could spline it, but that would be expensive and slow as the splines would have to be all ground afterwards due to distortion in hardening. Could make the shaft out of high tensile (no hardening required) but then I need to somehow attach a 60R gear to this shaft, more grinding/ expensive!
So plain press fit is a good thing for speed and cost. Do I just need a heavier press fit, perhaps?

[husaberg]

intetesting, im having this dilemma at the moment. My twin cylinder gyro engine center shaft is a press fit into the opposing crank wheels. This center shaft is hardened and has an output gear machined into it. This gear is clocked up and every bearing/seal surface ground concentric. This arrangment has twisted in the past with this fit perhaps being a bit lite. Lock tig welding has been applied and there has been no issues since (its been doing circuits) but thats a rough arse way (read desperate) can't sell them like that!
Could spline it, but that would be expensive and slow as the splines would have to be all ground afterwards due to distortion in hardening. Could make the shaft out of high tensile (no hardening required) but then I need to somehow attach a 60R gear to this shaft, more grinding/ expensive!
So plain press fit is a good thing for speed and cost. Do I just need a heavier press fit, perhaps?
No idea are crankshafts in gyros meant to be rebuilt serviced or replaced?
personally a touch of weld can be ground off and is still rebuildable.
Suzuki with the RGV500 ran into problems with twisting when they went to big bang so the just increased the interference they then ended up fatiguing and cracking the wheels.
maybe see what press fit others similar engines use
As I mentioned Kawasaki added a dowel for the threes male and females
337584337585337586
sorry I cant find a better pic

much searching later
337587

[Grumph]

If it's the center shaft press fit twisting, then yes, I'd think you could go to a bit heavier press fit.

As a reference, an Ossa motocross crank of dread memory, had an 8 ton press on the bigends.....At least it didn't move.

Where's the twist load coming from ? Drive engagement a bit sudden ?
If all else fails, you could always scotch key it.

[Flettner]

crank parts, ground shafts on Central pin are 25mm dia.
Perhaps in the future i might bring them up to 26.

[Michael Moore]

It seems like better steel in the parts to allow higher press fits would be the best way to go. OEM 2T cranks don't seem to take much pressure, but something like a Ducati 750 bevel or Laverda 750 gets a 40T press groaning. I'm sure some of that is due to the size of the pins, but those two bikes use some pretty good steel that doesn't mush out of the way.

[jato]

years ago i pressed apart a never-been-rebuilt honda rs125 crank just to see what honda do on their race engines. from memory (a dodgy one i'm afraid) it was something around 12 to 14 ton to push it apart and it had .09mm or so interference on a 24mm pin - quite a surprise but it wasn't anywhere near as "flexible" as a motocross crank when subjected to experiments in the press. as mentioned , to handle the fit i'm sure you need a tough steel with a hard bore ($$$) . certainly a few mm of tig welding is the economical solution. the loads from centrifugle (or centripetal if you like to call it that) force cycle 4 times per rev on the pin to webs and to a degree into the main journal so you can see why engines love to dis-assemble themselves at high revs... money keeps them contented for a while...

[Flettner]

Ha Ha yes money keeps them contained for a while, love it.
just found in my boxes of stuff a ground pin ( with the gear machined on it, made from EN39B ), measures at 0.05 press. Bit light I think, I've made plenty more I see but not ground yet. I'll take these out to 0.08 / 0.1
Crank is nitrided 4140, so a resonable steel.

[husaberg]

Honda used to have two charts for selective fitting big ends and bigend mains based on the crankpin and pin hole diameter the big ends were then colour coded
kind of like this yamaha had a similar system, but you had tocorrect their own slapping them together and fit them yourself after delivery of the TZ.
https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/honda-xl350-k1-1975-usa-crankshaftpiston-chart_bighu0032e02_a34e.gif
I have always wondered with the RS125 as Honda never sold bits, only complete cranks maybe they believed they were not up to repeated use with tight pins.

[Grumph]

I have always wondered with the RS125 as Honda never sold bits, only complete cranks maybe they believed they were not up to repeated use with tight pins.

I'd thought that too - but local to me they seem to be surviving rebuilding OK, so I'm now assuming it was simple greed on Honda's part....

[guyhockley]

There were two 350 triples built here. Jim Cashman built the C3 which was raced in the support class of the Marlboro Series. He cast his own piston port water cooled barrels. One of them featured on the Westoby bucket single I put up in the chassis thread ages ago.

The other I know less about. Built at Boyles in Wellington, I remember it as air cooled. It was in a Steve Roberts built TR250 frame with the usual Ceriani forks and brakes those had. Boyles were at the time the leading Suzuki tuners in NZ - and Keith Turner's TR500 used a Boyle engine to get runner up in the 500 World title. Geoff Perry nearly won Daytona with another Boyle engine.
I remember Dale Wylie riding it at a Hawkesbury meeting ( a country roads circuit ) and winning nearly everything.

Husa - Wallace is fighting his way through a batch of T250/T20 cranks at present.

Thanks, Greg.

A different triple:

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24494/lot/362/

[guyhockley]

Not suggesting it as a solution for the Flettmotor, but thought this was interesting if the claims are true.

http://www.generalpolygon.com/why.htm

[Flettner]

you see some pressed crank pins with grooves cut into the surface, say six or so generally. I'm guessing these are so some of the distorted press fit, microscopicly, distort down into these grooves helping to assist drive? I wonder this might make subsequent pressing less effective?

[Grumph]

you see some pressed crank pins with grooves cut into the surface, say six or so generally. I'm guessing these are so some of the distorted press fit, microscopicly, distort down into these grooves helping to assist drive? I wonder this might make subsequent pressing less effective?

I don't know about less effective - but it certainly makes alignment easier on reassembly. A while back, Barry Lynch was showing me micro grooving on a late crank. That one was deliberate - but he was also talking about rough edges on the holes in crankwheels leaving grooves in shafts which he liked as it helped establish alignment when setting up to press back together.
Sadly Barry has sold up and moved to Husa's side of the hill. Another precision engineer gone.

[husaberg]

I don't know about less effective - but it certainly makes alignment easier on reassembly. A while back, Barry Lynch was showing me micro grooving on a late crank. That one was deliberate - but he was also talking about rough edges on the holes in crankwheels leaving grooves in shafts which he liked as it helped establish alignment when setting up to press back together.
Sadly Barry has sold up and moved to Husa's side of the hill. Another precision engineer gone.
I remember that name Was it BE RT or the one just one bock over from RT?

[guyhockley]

Latest edition of Classic Racer magazine has a report on the Pukekohe classic festival. There's s a small, uncaptioned picture of a DIY Ducati Supermono (air-cooled). Think I've found it...

"This unusual Ducati single caught my eye. There was something very ‘right’ about it, even if its provenance was somewhat head-scratching. A chat with owner and builder Andy Gourlay revealed the bike is a ‘fusion’ of half a 900 top end, a 750 bottom end (with custom balanced crank), the front part of a ST2 frame with fabricated rear, a 916 tank and various other Ducati, bespoke and universal parts."
From: https://www.rideforever.co.nz/news-and-reviews/nzcmrr-classic-festival-2015/
Nice job!

I've just checked, and there's been nothing from Will since 28th May. Anyone know if he's OK?
Wil, you out there?

[Grumph]

Andy's a friend of mine - and another friend rode his GS1000S up from ChCh to ride the Ducati at Pukekohe. I've never seen it in the flesh but I understand the internals are same-same as a Supermono insofar as the balancing and crank arrangements go.
He's a clever engineer - and yes, Guy another of the Yorkshire Gourlays.

[husaberg]

Andy's a friend of mine - and another friend rode his GS1000S up from ChCh to ride the Ducati at Pukekohe. I've never seen it in the flesh but I understand the internals are same-same as a Supermono insofar as the balancing and crank arrangements go.
He's a clever engineer - and yes, Guy another of the Yorkshire Gourlays.
Andy was the one who is or was the marine surveyor? had a macchi (marine surveyor is boat WOF rather than someone who questions Dolphins)

[Grumph]

Andy was the one who is or was the marine surveyor? had a macchi (marine surveyor is boat WOF rather than someone who questions Dolphins)

Correct - and you'd be able to guess which ChCh 'Macchi racer went up to ride it. Effectively it's just a big 'Macchi after all....

[WilDun]

I've just checked, and there's been nothing from Will since 28th May. Anyone know if he's OK?
Wil, you out there?

Yes thanks I'm ok - I do check the threads every two or three days, but there's a lot of other problems and changes going on in my life and taking up most my time at the moment (nothing which can't be sorted out - eventually).

I won't be contributing but will probably keep up to date both with this thread and the foundry thread! :)

[ken seeber]

but will probably keep up to date both with this thread and the foundry thread! :)

Goodonya Will, all this stuff stimulates the memory and imagination, keeping those good juices flowing and just keeps us so young... We all get distracted by various events in our lives, (me with houses at the moment) but that's life.
Looking forward to more comments from your good self...we've had the occasional real wanker on kb, but there's a good bunch at present

[guyhockley]

5 cylinder Hayabusa, seems to be built as a normal 4 + extra pot.

https://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=18927&

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vCXnDJHsGRk

[Grumph]

5 cylinder Hayabusa, seems to be built as a normal 4 + extra pot.

Won't open for me - but that's my internet. I've built a couple of Busa's and there's not a lot of excess strength in there....

[guyhockley]

Won't open for me - but that's my internet. I've built a couple of Busa's and there's not a lot of excess strength in there....
Fairly typical cut'n'shut job, left hand end of the case cut off and another left hand end plus 1 more cylinder bottom end welded on. Block cut through the middle of number 2 and another block cut through number 1 welded on. That bore fitted with an iron sleeve. Extra left hand bit of cylinder head welded on.
The bit I thought made it interesting was he showed a left hand bit of crank skimmed off just inboard of the radius, then butted up to the original crank end main journal. Presume it was welded and ground, he didn't seem to say.
So, it's a normal 2up 2down crank with a 5th cylinder at 90° as far as I can see.

[Grumph]

Hope it's been left pretty standard as far as the cams and pistons go. High com pistons and decent cams and the cases fret.
With the setup you describe and readily available hot bits, I'd doubt it would last long...

[guyhockley]

I was at a hill climb, last weekend, and there were a couple of Hayabusa 1600s (cars) but runs were in the 30-40 second area so not a lot of time for anything nasty!
I think for those of us who've grown up with British and early Japanese bikes, modern sports bike engines, and gearboxes, have frighteningly light "scantlings"...

[Grumph]

I was at a hill climb, last weekend, and there were a couple of Hayabusa 1600s (cars) but runs were in the 30-40 second area so not a lot of time for anything nasty!
I think for those of us who've grown up with British and early Japanese bikes, modern sports bike engines, and gearboxes, have frighteningly light "scantlings"...

You're not wrong....I was talking last week to the guy who builds engines for Suzuki NZ. They have a pool of GSXR1000 engines for the supported riders - or did until our regs changed to what are now pretty much stock engines. I've got a couple here to go through from a few seasons back for a customer.
He was telling me that they're regarded as throwaway after one season....You can buy them at your risk. The cases fret, stretch and distort.
I note that BMW do an exchange service for the superbike engines. Their cases must be somewhat more rugged as they don't seem to be replaced as part of the rebuild.

[190mech]

One would think that with modern CAD ,a great engine could be made to be light yet strong in all the right places..I tend to think the 'bean counters' have a finite lifespan carefully engineered into this modern stuff,if they make it thru the warranty period and until the next new model,all is wonderful(for them..):wacko:

[Grumph]

One would think that with modern CAD ,a great engine could be made to be light yet strong in all the right places..I tend to think the 'bean counters' have a finite lifespan carefully engineered into this modern stuff,if they make it thru the warranty period and until the next new model,all is wonderful(for them..):wacko:

Almost...Remember, we're talking kitted engines here. From the stock 160-odd HP to the full kit around 200 HP is a serious increase in stress.

The GSXR1000 family is developing a reputation for lasting a very long while - if left stock.

What I see is often worse. Put one in a sidecar and you start with changing the shift fork rails to solid instead of tubular - the loads trying to push the box out of gear flex the stock rails enough to put a permanent bend in them. Keeping the cases together at the output shaft is a nightmare too.

But it's always been like that - we do tend to push the limits of whatever design we go racing with. I'm assuming that someone somewhere is probably looking at a smoking heap of what was an electric race bike....

[guyhockley]

Royce Creasey (ex William's F1 transmission tech) says there is a triangle of factors for gearboxes. Torque, grip and weight - increase any of those and the transmission will be under more stress.
Lots of BECs (bike-engined cars) in the UK, who do seem to suffer lots of gearbox woes. Also, the couple I've looked at run a propshaft straight off the output shaft/sprocket back to the rear axle so no cush drive and possibly the chain has a cushioning effect, too, that they don't have.
When Keith Duckworth got involved with Norton he was said to be astonished at the size of their gearbox cogs for the amount of torque from their small engine, until it clicked that the primary drive had quite a significant reduction ratio...
I think Peter Williams upped that ratio at one point to give the clutch and box an easier time. Could be a clue there for BECs?

[guyhockley]

You're not wrong....I was talking last week to the guy who builds engines for Suzuki NZ. They have a pool of GSXR1000 engines for the supported riders - or did until our regs changed to what are now pretty much stock engines. I've got a couple here to go through from a few seasons back for a customer.
He was telling me that they're regarded as throwaway after one season....You can buy them at your risk. The cases fret, stretch and distort.
I note that BMW do an exchange service for the superbike engines. Their cases must be somewhat more rugged as they don't seem to be replaced as part of the rebuild.
Drag racers know all about this, of course, and Puma Engineering
http://www.pumaengineering.moonfruit.com
build massively strong billet bottom ends.
There's a company that builds a Hayabusa bottom end to mate with car gearboxes, too, but there's a couple of others that I thought were interesting.
Cycle World reported that Suzuki made some GS(X)1100 cases in cast iron for a Pro-Stock (I think that's right) racer in the US. They weighed 70 pounds against 30(?) for stock ones.
A bloke in Australia found out that Kawasaki's jet ski engine was developed from the ZX12 so he combined the better breathing bike top end with the tougher, longer stroke jet ski bottom end to get a 1500 that can take lots of boost and drive a drag style box off the end of the crank.

[Grumph]

Kawasaki generally seem to build somewhat more rugged cases - on the big tourers at least. I've not had a late 1000 apart. I have however had to build up another engine for a racing sports car using a turboed 1400. He'd only just bought it and went the wrong way in the box attempting to change up at peak revs in 2nd...Put one of a set of Carillos out the front. One does wonder how much of the BEC problems are owner caused...
Speedway TQ's I used to take everything out of the box except 1st and 2nd. Chain drive cars of course, the ones with a propshaft and quickchange diff drive off the end of the crank. Make up spacers for the shafts which were pretty much a press fit so the shafts were stiffer too. Start off in 1st, one change up and that's it. Speedway sidecars use the same setup.

Edit addition - It's not generally known but Kawasaki produced a "bare" Z1 engine for odd applications. NIce crankcase with a spin-on filter out the side. Ignition one end and a flanged crank end the other. I think they were aimed at aero use but the one I saw was in an American speedway TQ out here as part of the USAC team.

[kiwimacchi]

Andy's a friend of mine - and another friend rode his GS1000S up from ChCh to ride the Ducati at Pukekohe. I've never seen it in the flesh but I understand the internals are same-same as a Supermono insofar as the balancing and crank arrangements go.
He's a clever engineer - and yes, Guy another of the Yorkshire Gourlays.

Just to elaborate on Andy's Ducati 'mono'. This is the third one he's built- he experimented with the original Ducati Supermono idea of a 'dummy' rod , but quickly developed the engine into a big Aermacchi, using the front cylinder only, balancing the crank using a split counterweight in place of the second rod, piston, etc. The engine is balanced to the standard Aermacchi balance factor of aprox 27%. This is because the cylinder is horizontal. When I first built up my 'macchi 40 odd years ago, Rob Selby (while he was at Denco Engineering) balanced it to standard vertical single factor of 50%, which led to double vision, hands vibrating off bars and frame beakages!
Andy's first mono was ridden by a 'friend ' a couple of years ago, and the 'rod bolts' connecting the two halves of the balance weight came loose, causing the engine to self destruct. There was adequate warning this was happening as you might imagine, however some riders are not particularly mechanically sympathetic!!
At Pukekohe this Feb, Andy had a 470cc and a 530cc version. I rode the 470cc bike, and it was lovely- smooth, torquey and revvy as well. It is probably nicer to ride than the bigger version. Andy has a 4 valve injected head in his cupboard- be interesting to see this one built!!

[pete376403]

Not an oddball engine, rather about balancing.I had a 4 valve jawa speedway bike that I ran at te marua. Vibration wasn't too bad at all. I went to dunedin for a while and they dont run bikes at beachlands, so I borrowed a TQ chassis and put the jawa in to that, across the frame but using exactly the same mounting system as the bike. It vibrated so badly that it was almost impossible to hold the steering wheel, to the point one of the ally spokes of the steering wheel broke in two. Gave up with it, put the engine back into the bike for when I returned to Wellington . Apparently something to do with the plane of vibration in lne with the wheels when in the bike.

[ken seeber]

Sometimes wondered how the dudes mastered the art of gearshifting a 12 speed Kreidler with 3 and 4 speed separate gearboxes in series. So if the 3 speed was tacked on to the original 4 speed, we have the following arrangement. A1, A2 & A3 for the 3 speeder and B1, B2, B3 and B4 for the 4 speeder.

So, old mate starts in A1 and B1, then progresses to B2, B3 & B4. What happens next? OK he goes to A2, but presumably he’d want to go back to B1. How does do this. Is the shift drum able to continually rotate allowing it to go back to B1 after B4? Wouldn’t be possible in an internal push/pull rod type Jamathi style arrangement or would it ??

This link below tells of a handlebar selector for one of the gearboxes. So clearly no mechanism to allow seamless "interconnected" ratio changing from A1:B1 thru to A3:B4. This being the case, it’d have to be a head fuck to remember what gear one was in and the sequence of shifting.

http://www.classic50racingclub.co.uk/technicalities-50s.html

[guyhockley]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130913246#post1130913246

I guess with the Kreidler it would be more, "down 2 foot, 1 hand for this corner" etc

[guyhockley]

The Kreidler name seems to have been resurrected as yet another chinese 125 engined range.
This is an oddball one.
Is the turbo just for silencing?
Is it to blow cool air at the engine?
Is it to blow cool air at the rider?
Is it just to make a cool noise?

[Frits Overmars]

Sometimes wondered how the dudes mastered the art of gearshifting a 12 speed Kreidler with 3 and 4 speed separate gearboxes in series. So if the 3 speed was tacked on to the original 4 speed, we have the following arrangement. A1, A2 & A3 for the 3 speeder and B1, B2, B3 and B4 for the 4 speeder.
So, old mate starts in A1 and B1, then progresses to B2, B3 & B4. What happens next? OK he goes to A2, but presumably he’d want to go back to B1. How does do this. Is the shift drum able to continually rotate allowing it to go back to B1 after B4? Wouldn’t be possible in an internal push/pull rod type Jamathi style arrangement or would it ??
This link below tells of a handlebar selector for one of the gearboxes. So clearly no mechanism to allow seamless "interconnected" ratio changing from A1:B1 thru to A3:B4. This being the case, it’d have to be a head fuck to remember what gear one was in and the sequence of shifting. Let's call the 4-speed footbox F and let's call the 3-speed handbox, that was fitted at the exit shaft of the footbox, H. Makes sense, doesn't it? The footbox operates in the usual manner; the handbox is operated by a twistgrip on the left handlebar; you can twist it from 1 to 3 or from 3 to 1 without having to stop at 2.
You start with
F1-H1 and a lot of clutch slipping. Next:
F1-H2
F1-H3
F2-H1
F2-H2
F2-H3
F3-H1
F3-H2
F3-H3
F4-H1
F4-H2
F4-H3
Yep, counted 'm, that's twelve steps.
All is well as long as you're upshifting. You may not have a clue which gear you're in, but that doesn't matter. But imagine coming onto a corner, braking, footshifting down twice and handshifting up once. Or was it the other way round? With a powerband about 7 rpm wide, there's not much room for errors.
Imagine racing this Kreidler at the 187 corners of the Nürburgring... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring
Kreidler later made life a little easier for the riders with a 2-speed handbox, coupled to a 6-speed footbox.
Suzuki built a 'straight-twelve' footbox, later followed by a 'straight-fourteen'. Much easier on the riders' minds. The snag was that they simply couldn't downshift 13 times quick enough whilst braking for a hairpin.
Jan Thiel played with the idea of facilitating two at a time-downshifts for his 9-speed Jamathi rod-and-pawl-operated box. But then the FIM enforced a 6-speed rule.
338185 338182 338181 338183 338184 338180

[guyhockley]

Just to elaborate on Andy's Ducati 'mono'. This is the third one he's built- he experimented with the original Ducati Supermono idea of a 'dummy' rod , but quickly developed the engine into a big Aermacchi, using the front cylinder only, balancing the crank using a split counterweight in place of the second rod, piston, etc. The engine is balanced to the standard Aermacchi balance factor of aprox 27%. This is because the cylinder is horizontal. When I first built up my 'macchi 40 odd years ago, Rob Selby (while he was at Denco Engineering) balanced it to standard vertical single factor of 50%, which led to double vision, hands vibrating off bars and frame beakages!
Andy's first mono was ridden by a 'friend ' a couple of years ago, and the 'rod bolts' connecting the two halves of the balance weight came loose, causing the engine to self destruct. There was adequate warning this was happening as you might imagine, however some riders are not particularly mechanically sympathetic!!
At Pukekohe this Feb, Andy had a 470cc and a 530cc version. I rode the 470cc bike, and it was lovely- smooth, torquey and revvy as well. It is probably nicer to ride than the bigger version. Andy has a 4 valve injected head in his cupboard- be interesting to see this one built!!

When I was living in Belgium there was a meeting where a load of french racers came along. Among them were about half a dozen "Halfcatis". These were watercooled ones with the reaer head replaced by a thick ali plate. One of the blokes said there was a standard recipe - bore a bloody great hole through the crown of the rear piston, replace the lost weight (inside the gudgeon pin, but our communication broke down a bit here and I didn't get how, exactly), plate over the barrel, throw away all the unnecessary bits.
Some of them had simple cantilever rear suspension with the top of the unit being where the rear head would have been, didn't understand why. I've got pictures. Somewhere...

[ken seeber]

Frits, thanks for your, as usual, well explained response. However, the question still remains for me as to the primary, in this example, transition from H3 to H1 without going thru H2. A double lost movement? Either way, full admiration to the riders of the time.

[husaberg]

When I was living in Belgium there was a meeting where a load of french racers came along. Among them were about half a dozen "Halfcatis". These were watercooled ones with the reaer head replaced by a thick ali plate. One of the blokes said there was a standard recipe - bore a bloody great hole through the crown of the rear piston, replace the lost weight (inside the gudgeon pin, but our communication broke down a bit here and I didn't get how, exactly), plate over the barrel, throw away all the unnecessary bits.
Some of them had simple cantilever rear suspension with the top of the unit being where the rear head would have been, didn't understand why. I've got pictures. Somewhere...

Thats how a MVX was balanced a huge big gudgeon on the single upper cylinder.
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Honda-MVX-250F-Pistons1.jpg
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Honda-MVX-250F-Pistons2.jpg
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Honda-MVX250F-Crankshaft-Rods-1024x935.jpg

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, thanks for your, as usual, well explained response. However, the question still remains for me as to the primary, in this example, transition from H3 to H1 without going thru H2. A double lost movement? Either way, full admiration to the riders of the time.My pleasure Ken. The 4-speed footbox was the primary box in the 4x3 Kreidler; the 3-speed handbox was the secundary one (in the 2x6 Kreidler it was the other way around; there the 2-speed handbox was the primary box and the 6-speed footbox was the secundary one).
Below is that 4x3 version once more. You can see the cable-operated shift lever top left. When shifting from H1 to H3 or vice versa, you did go through H2, but you could do it in one sweeping move. There was no positive stop in the box; just a couple of notches and a springloaded ball. The positive stop was built in the twist-grip handle and it was released when you pulled the clutch lever, just as in most mopeds of that time.
(I wasn't quite so fortunate; my moped had only two gears, so I had to rev it to 15.000 rpm before shifting to top (2nd) gear. Yes, that did draw some attention in 1964.
But it was enough to outrun the police :p).
338330338331

[guyhockley]

Thats how a MVX was balanced a huge big gudgeon on the single upper cylinder.
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Honda-MVX-250F-Pistons1.jpg
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Honda-MVX-250F-Pistons2.jpg
http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Honda-MVX250F-Crankshaft-Rods-1024x935.jpg
Was that only the 250 or wasn't there a 400 before the NS?
Always seemed like one of Honda's too clever by far tricks to me.
Has the Ducati V-One been on KB?

[Grumph]

Has the Ducati V-One been on KB?

No...Andy's not on here. Kiwimacchi and I are both ChCh, Andy's Auckland so meeting up doesn't happen often.

[Grumph]

(I wasn't quite so fortunate; my moped had only two gears, so I had to rev it to 15.000 rpm before shifting to top (2nd) gear. Yes, that did draw some attention in 1964.
But it was enough to outrun the police :p).

The joys of a wide ratio twistgrip changed gearbox....The NSU Prima scooter was a heavy, sluggish pig of a thing which had to be revved hard to stay with traffic - and it was easy to miss the 1-2 hand change...
But they had a Siba starter/generator on the end of the crank. Rev it too hard and segments came off the commutator on the armature.
During my high school years, the Prima sold well here. I had a flourishing business repairing the armatures for the local agents.
Never heard of one outrunning the Police though.

[husaberg]

Was that only the 250 or wasn't there a 400 before the NS?
Always seemed like one of Honda's too clever by far tricks to me.
Has the Ducati V-One been on KB?
it was the 250 i think the NS400R used a similar crank set up though
Later MVX from what i can peice together had a same diameter as the other pins but solid.
there is some stuff on them here.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4861&attachmentid=303391
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4861&attachmentid=303390
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4861&attachmentid=303389
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4861&attachmentid=303380
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4861&attachmentid=303381

[guyhockley]

No...Andy's not on here. Kiwimacchi and I are both ChCh, Andy's Auckland so meeting up doesn't happen often.

Oops, sorry, I meant the Bart Crauwels one that turned the rear pot into a blower to feed the front one.

https://thekneeslider.com/ducati-v-one-twin-to-supercharged-single-conversion/

[ken seeber]

Here ya go, a 4 stroke, a 2 stroke and a 0 stroke all in the same chunk of complexity:

https://newatlas.com/camcon-digital-iva-valve-system/55827/

Still, as with any exhaust valve in the head, can't see it having the max power performance of a piston ported exhaust 2 stroke (maybe unless well supercharged), that we know and love. :yes::yes:

[tjbw]

Here ya go, a 4 stroke, a 2 stroke and a 0 stroke all in the same chunk of complexity:

https://newatlas.com/camcon-digital-iva-valve-system/55827/

Still, as with any exhaust valve in the head, can't see it having the max power performance of a piston ported exhaust 2 stroke (maybe unless well supercharged), that we know and love. :yes::yes:

Reminds me of Freevalve:

https://youtu.be/S3cFfM3r510

[husaberg]

better explanation of MVX crank
Shes a big bang
338481

[tjbw]

Oddball bike, but can it turn corners?

https://youtu.be/rKQ5f8tvRxY

[WALRUS]

His arse is very close to that rear wheel... No thanks xD

[190mech]

I agree!Not a functional motorcycle..Thats a Continental ground power unit engine used in the 50's for military generators.Most were converted for airboat service today,the CVT looks like a common ATV Quad unit..All show,no go,,gotta clear the streets for the vid so no bystander gets injured if its leaned over!!

[tjbw]

His arse is very close to that rear wheel... No thanks xD

"Gives a whole new meaning to skidmark"

[ken seeber]

This one will keep you going for many an hour...some really nice pics...

https://www.facebook.com/Passion.2T/?hc_ref=ARTQx4qoqrPJHhxRYS1hhrBRDkV60NLD9nIH06FFTF BYz7G4A4BIZZSdH4CJvC-97r4&hc_location=group&__xts__[0]=68.ARD384b4CCRWwXWJaXTT_gznNUmFKkE4u4Ia4l02bBmgg]1Xcetlr5fZdWFh7tmgd7t42TV_j1KWHwKjzyXiwoFita03953d q8cR33DPShFFJaCdAOHdQDFNj5J2LOwmNarvcGG3yRzxI2PNdb 72SGbzGp_q1LeIpRTWRoXkZbZWU8&__tn__=kCH-R

Actually I found it when I saw this one which I'll chuck on Foundry as well:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/

[tjbw]

This one will keep you going for many an hour...some really nice pics...

https://www.facebook.com/Passion.2T/?hc_ref=ARTQx4qoqrPJHhxRYS1hhrBRDkV60NLD9nIH06FFTF BYz7G4A4BIZZSdH4CJvC-97r4&hc_location=group&__xts__[0]=68.ARD384b4CCRWwXWJaXTT_gznNUmFKkE4u4Ia4l02bBmgg]1Xcetlr5fZdWFh7tmgd7t42TV_j1KWHwKjzyXiwoFita03953d q8cR33DPShFFJaCdAOHdQDFNj5J2LOwmNarvcGG3yRzxI2PNdb 72SGbzGp_q1LeIpRTWRoXkZbZWU8&__tn__=kCH-R

Actually I found it when I saw this one which I'll chuck on Foundry as well:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/

Lots of interesting posts on there, including more images of Flettner's creations.

I'm even tempted to join Facebook!

[190mech]

WOW!Its been very quiet here for a long time,,Have gone to re reading old posts as there are technical gems on every page..Was going to mention an odd ball aircraft engine,the Continental Tiarra 6-285 series engine.It ran a 2 to 1 prop reduction and the reduction gear drove the cam also,had a "patented" torsional dampener between the crank and prop shaft.I knew a pilot that ran one for a few years in a Piper PA36 Pawnee Brave,he liked it very well,but Continental Motors lost millions as the concept never caught on,thus they scrapped it..

[guyhockley]

Few oddballs here and lots of tractors, too!
https://www.imgrumweb.com/hashtag/gearheadengine

[husaberg]

Anyone seen Will post?
or Smitty


Yes thanks I'm ok - I do check the threads every two or three days, but there's a lot of other problems and changes going on in my life and taking up most my time at the moment (nothing which can't be sorted out - eventually).

I won't be contributing but will probably keep up to date both with this thread and the foundry thread! :)


Fella is driving around the big city in the evening, late for some event and desperately trying to find a parking space. He drives up one street and down the next, but there are no parking spots and no one is leaving. Finally he pulls up at a stop sign, throws his hands skyward, and pleads, "Lord, if you would just find me a parking space soon, I promise to cut back on my drinking and gambling and hanging out in bars, and I'll start going to church on Sunday mornings and be a good boy!!"

He then takes a right at the intersection, and immediately there's an empty parking space . . . and as he quickly pulls into it he says, "Oh, never mind, Lord, I just found one myself!!"

[WilDun]

Anyone seen Will post?
or Smitty

Still around and still looking in now and then, but not spending so much time on the computer - I need to actually try do something rather than just talk - (talking too much shit to keep the thread active)

We will probably have to move and downsize our home in the very near future, so who knows after that! - I'm contemplating getting a little 3D printer to use in conjunction with Fusion 360 and maybe try making casting patterns with that, (something which won't require a real workshop).

Smitty seems to have disappeared maybe we'll hear from him sometime? (if he's still occasionally looking in).

[husaberg]

Still around and still looking in now and then, but not spending so much time on the computer - I need to actually try do something rather than just talk - (talking too much shit to keep the thread active)

We will probably have to move and downsize our home in the very near future, so who knows after that! - I'm contemplating getting a little 3D printer to use in conjunction with Fusion 360 and maybe try making casting patterns with that, (something which won't require a real workshop).

Smitty seems to have disappeared maybe we'll hear from him sometime? (if he's still occasionally looking in).
I seem him post a couple of days ago. good to know your still ticking

[husaberg]

https://i.imgflip.com/2m6nd6.gif (https://imgflip.com/gif/2m6nd6)

WARDILL: 1924-26
I found this mentioned in an old Bike mag i have found some pics on the net.
http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=5234.15
339439339441339442339440

[Flettner]

never thought I'd see one of these running.
https://youtu.be/MuvJIoUTA8k

[WilDun]

I found this mentioned in an old Bike mag i have found some pics on the net.


I started the ball rolling on the British Bikes Thread on the Classic bikes forum back in 2015, but had forgotten about it and the young guy working under the name "Wardill" on the forum responded, (he is related to Wardill, might be a grandson) - he wanted help to build a replica and asked me, but I really couldn't help from here and didn't really have the workshop capability anyway, I had quite a bit of correspondence with him and I advised him to go in the direction of smaller engineering outfits or home workshops (in England), ones who could build the parts he might need at reasonable prices!

At least, thankfully the name has now survived on the net (nearly became extinct)! So good luck to the guy, that was really an interesting machine (the engine at least) which had stuck in my mind since the early seventies.

http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=4985.0

[Ocean1]

never thought I'd see one of these running.
https://youtu.be/MuvJIoUTA8k

Backwards :laugh:

Maybe the prop's on the wrong way around. More likely it's just what was lying around...

[Frits Overmars]

Backwards :laugh:. Maybe the prop's on the wrong way around. More likely it's just what was lying around...Or the engine used to do service on a flying boat. Or a Zeppelin :msn-wink:.
339452 339456

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78HUq951V7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WZ7Hl-z10Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGJ0ByNjU6s
I cant remember his user name but he had an unusal posting style.
You said.....
I say.....

[Ocean1]

Or the engine used to do service on a flying boat. Or a Zeppelin :msn-wink:.
339452 339453

Oh I wasn't looking at the flow direction, I'd spotted the brass leading edge casings... trailing.

It matter's not a jot, of course, it's going nowhere, all they needed was some sort of flywheel / minimum load.

Having said that I've seen a few trailer mounted vintage engines that I personally wouldn't want to be around should full throttle somehow occur...

[Frits Overmars]

Oh I wasn't looking at the flow direction, I'd spotted the brass leading edge casings... trailing.Looks like leading to me...
339457


Having said that I've seen a few trailer mounted vintage engines that I personally wouldn't want to be around should full throttle somehow occur...Most, if not all of 'm, I'd say :shit:.

[Ocean1]

Looks like leading to me...
339457

Most, if not all of 'm, I'd say :shit:.

I think you're right now that I look again. It'll be some antipodean perspective tripping me up no doubt. :laugh:

[guyhockley]

Don't think we've had this one, although it reminds me a bit of the V8 Monkey Bike! "1930 Elcar with Powell Lever motor. The interesting thing about these engines was the use of a lever to double the piston stroke. The normal con-rod was coupled to one end of a rocking lever pivoted at its opposite end to the crankcase and coupled at its centre to another rod operating on the crankshaft big-end. Two versions were used in the Elcar, both L-head sixes, respectively of 2.5 in. x 8 in. (236 Cu. in.) and 3 in x 8 in. (340 Cu. in.). Known respectively as the model-83 and model-85, they were geared at 2.4 and 2.1 to 1. The American journal Motor remarked unkindly that while these unusually high rear-axle gears were interesting, it had been unable to discover why the Powell Lever Motor offers any notable advantages over conventional engines of the same piston displacement!"

[Frits Overmars]

Reminds me of this:
339707339708 339706

[WilDun]

I mentioned this (Welsh) guy, Mark Wardill earlier on the thread, his great grandfather produced the interesting "Wardill" machine around 1927 and any traces of it had all but disappeared until now.
He has successfully reproduced the frame and now hopes to reproduce the two stroke engine which has an integral supercharger - it has an annular piston running in a cylinder outside the main cylinder making it compact .... and unique! At the moment it is using a Suzuki GN 250 but he is hoping to replace that with an original engine.340077340078



BTW does anyone here know who this guy is and what bike is he riding? guy who showed me the photo thought it might be a Benelli.
Pic possibly was from Wigram (Christchurch) around 1960
340076

[husaberg]

I mentioned this (Welsh) guy, Mark Wardill earlier on the thread, his great grandfather produced the interesting "Wardill" machine around 1927 and any traces of it had all but disappeared until now.
He has successfully reproduced the frame and now hopes to reproduce the two stroke engine which has an integral supercharger - it has an annular piston running in a cylinder outside the main cylinder making it compact .... and unique! At the moment it is using a Suzuki GN 250 but he is hoping to replace that with an original engine.340077340078



BTW does anyone here know who this guy is and what bike is he riding? guy who showed me the photo thought it might be a Benelli.
Pic possibly was from Wigram (Christchurch) around 1960
340076

pic looks to be norton Manx with the short circuit tank or AJS 7R but the brake looks wrong for a 7r
The gap behind the rhomboid oil tank screams manx.
plenty of people collect programs so it would be posible to track
few people had Manxs.

[WilDun]

pic looks to be norton Manx with the short circuit tank or AJS 7R but the brake looks wrong for a 7r
The gap behind the rhomboid oil tank screams manx.
plenty of people collect programs so it would be posible to track
few people had Manxs.

Not sure about the vertical shocks - first sight I said G50 then the front brake threw me off the scent (maybe an Oldani or something,) Norton foks? Norton Manx seat but to be honest the short megaphone and the tank threw me! (probably a "special"), but I would like to know more about it for sure! - reckon somebody will recognize it or the rider!

[husaberg]

Not sure about the vertical shocks - first sight I said G50 then the front brake threw me off the scent (maybe an Oldani or something,) Norton foks? Norton Manx seat but to be honest the short megaphone and the tank threw me! (probably a "special"), but I would like to know more about it for sure! - reckon somebody will recognize it or the rider!

It could really be anything given the time if you know the year for sure
But it fits the Manx silhouette
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[Grumph]

340076[/ATTACH]

It's a Manx. Short pipe suggests a 350. Number doesn't ring a bell - a lot of riders used the same number for years.
Front brake is standard 2ls black painted magnesium hub.
I can confirm it's not me, LOL, I didn't ride there till 1969. But I was there in 1960 - the old man was one of the founders so we always worked at the meeting.

Pretty sure the book published a few years back History of the Motor Racing Club has the full entry lists of the bikes - so it should be possible to ID the rider.

Edit - The tank looks like a 3 1/2 gal locally made short circuit one. Neither of my manxes had the big tanks by the time I got them - long gone.

[husaberg]

It's a Manx. Short pipe suggests a 350. Number doesn't ring a bell - a lot of riders used the same number for years.
Front brake is standard 2ls black painted magnesium hub.
I can confirm it's not me, LOL, I didn't ride there till 1969. But I was there in 1960 - the old man was one of the founders so we always worked at the meeting.

Pretty sure the book published a few years back History of the Motor Racing Club has the full entry lists of the bikes - so it should be possible to ID the rider.

White loooking helmet though would that have been rather flamboyant for the time?

[Grumph]

White loooking helmet though would that have been rather flamboyant for the time?

No. Aviakit or some similar name. English make. The pudding basins were on the way out and it would only be a couple of years before the first "jet" helmets. Google a pic of Stirling Moss around 1960 and that's what he wore.
It's possible that the helmet is the reason for the pic being taken....

[WilDun]

No. Aviakit or some similar name. English make. The pudding basins were on the way out and it would only be a couple of years before the first "jet" helmets. Google a pic of Stirling Moss around 1960 and that's what he wore.
It's possible that the helmet is the reason for the pic being taken....

Yes I think you guys are right, everything fits the Manx! - Hoped you South Island boys would come up with the answer, - now, who was the rider? - bet that'll be sorted soon! :niceone:

[Grumph]

Yes I think you guys are right, everything fits the Manx! - Hoped you South Island boys would come up with the answer, - now, who was the rider? - bet that'll be sorted soon! :niceone:

Couple of memory neurons collided, it's a Stadium helmet. Reason I said it might be why the pic was taken is that if the date and place are correct, Moss was driving at that meeting. His helmet and this guy's would probably have been the only ones there of this type. It's definitely not Moss riding, LOL.
Could well be someone just back from overseas - with a manx and poncy helmet....

[husaberg]

Couple of memory neurons collided, it's a Stadium helmet. Reason I said it might be why the pic was taken is that if the date and place are correct, Moss was driving at that meeting. His helmet and this guy's would probably have been the only ones there of this type. It's definitely not Moss riding, LOL.
Could well be someone just back from overseas - with a manx and poncy helmet....

Iwas just reading something Barry Briggs wrote he said he met up with Bert Munro in Invergiggle one time he said he was petrified that Bert would offer him a ride that fear turned real when not only he did but he handed him a steel dads army helmet, Barry gave him his New Bell. that pic almost looks like a speedway face mask
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Denny Hulme and Jack Brabram were there in 1960 along with bruce mclaren
Denny Used to race Scambles also
John Surtess was there the Next year 1961

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340096
Results for Cars
Lady Wigram Trophy (Jan. 21st)—Christchurch, N.Z.

1st: J. Brabham (Cooper-Climax)
2nd: S. Moss (Lotus-Climax)
3rd: A. Hyslop (Cooper-Climax)

Getting closer here is the 1961 500cc list
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[Grumph]

That'll probably be a silk scarf worn under the helmet.
Pretty sure that was the year Moss turned up with a Cooper for practise, broke the lap record and everyone said "it's a Cooper circuit"....So when the Lotus turned up, he raced that.
Also pretty sure it was the year we all lined up in the pits to look down the throats of Mclaren's Cooper carbs....There was a valve head sitting in one carb throat. Which is why he drove the Lycoming...

[husaberg]

That'll probably be a silk scarf worn under the helmet.
Pretty sure that was the year Moss turned up with a Cooper for practise, broke the lap record and everyone said "it's a Cooper circuit"....So when the Lotus turned up, he raced that.
Also pretty sure it was the year we all lined up in the pits to look down the throats of Mclaren's Cooper carbs....There was a valve head sitting in one carb throat. Which is why he drove the Lycoming...

I am not sure if you can see the pics i posted
if not i will email them
Bravo on the memory

Lady Wigram Trophy (January 23rd)

The New Zealand season continued with the Lady Wigram Trophy held on the Christchurch airfield and Brabliam followed up his win in the New Zealand Grand Prix with another win in this event, leading from start to finish. Piper had his Lotus F.1 going well and did his best to hold on to the leader, while Burgess drove a 2.2-litre Cooper-Climax, but was slowed by losing fourth gear. In practice McLaren broke the engine of his works 2-1/2-litre Cooper and looked like having to be a spectator, until a New Zealand driver offered him his car, a home-built Lycoming special, which McLaren gratefully accepted and drove with great spirit to finish fourth.



I cant find Moss though

Pos No. Driver Car Laps Time Grid
1 Australia Jack Brabham Cooper T51 / Climax 2495cc 4cyl 71 1hr 40min 42.0sec 1
2 United Kingdom David Piper Lotus 16 / Climax 2495cc 4cyl 71 + 9.8 s 3
3 United Kingdom Ian Burgess Cooper T51 / Climax 2205cc 4cyl 71 + 2:01.0 s 2
4 New Zealand Bruce McLaren Lycoming Special / Lycoming 4733cc 4cyl 71 + 3:18.4 s 17
5 New Zealand Pat Hoare Ferrari 256 / Ferrari 2996cc 4cyl 71 + 4:17.9 s 4
6 New Zealand Jim Palmer Lotus 15 / Climax 1964cc 4cyl 68 + 3 Laps 6
7 New Zealand Len Gilbert Cooper-Bristol Mk II / Bristol 1971cc 6cyl 67 + 4 Laps 7
8 New Zealand Syd Jensen Cooper T45 / Climax 1460cc 4cyl 66 + 5 Laps 9
9 New Zealand Bill Thomasen Ferrari 750 Monza / Ferrari 2999cc 4cyl 65 + 6 Laps 15
10 New Zealand Ron Roycroft Ferrari 375 / Ferrari 4493cc V12 64 + 7 Laps 11
11 New Zealand Bruce Webster Cooper Mk VII / Porsche 1582cc 4cyl 64 + 7 Laps 12
Ret New Zealand Denny Hulme Cooper T45 / Climax 1964cc 4cyl 68 Oil Pressure 10
Ret New Zealand Morrie Stanton Stanton-Corvette / Chevrolet 4640cc V8 56 Spun off 14
Ret New Zealand Les Moore RA Vanguard / Vanguard 2088cc 4cyl 8 Tyre 15
Ret New Zealand Gavin Quirk Maserati 250F / Maserati 2497cc 6cyl 7 Engine 16
Ret New Zealand Johnny Mansell Maserati 250F / Maserati 2497cc 6cyl 0 Universal 16
DNS New Zealand Malcolm Gill Lycoming Special / Lycoming 4733cc 4cyl Did Not Start
DNS Australia Len Lukey Cooper T45 / Climax 1964cc 4cyl Did Not Start
DNA New Zealand George Lawton Cooper T45 / Climax 1964cc 4cyl Did Not Attend
DNA New Zealand Allan Freeman Talbot-Lago 26C / Talbot 4485cc 6cyl Did Not Attend
DNA New Zealand Bob Smith Ferrari Super Squalo 555 / Ferrari 3431cc 4cyl Did Not Attend

Found this also 1961 GP
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/new-zealand-grand-prix-1961

Doco on Kim Newcombe
https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/love-speed-and-loss-2007

[Grumph]

'61 was the wet one. Best remembered for three Italian GP cars stacked in the ditch outside Bomb-bay corner, LOL.
Seeing the Tec-Mec in the entry lists brought that memory back in spades.
'60, Moss - According to a book I have here, he was at Ardmore '60 and '61 so I'd have assumed he was at Wigram both years too. May have been a non-starter

Looking at the bike entry list for '60, I knew a lot of them. Not many left alive now.

[WilDun]

'61 was the wet one. Best remembered for three Italian GP cars stacked in the ditch outside Bomb-bay corner, LOL.
Seeing the Tec-Mec in the entry lists brought that memory back in spades.
'60, Moss - According to a book I have here, he was at Ardmore '60 and '61 so I'd have assumed he was at Wigram both years too. May have been a non-starter

Looking at the bike entry list for '60, I knew a lot of them. Not many left alive now.

Unfortunately I missed all of this car racing in Auckland, I didn't arrive in NZ till mid '66 and all the racing, (both cars & Bikes) had been moved to Pukekohe by then.
Although I do remember Mike Hailwood driving a car at Pukekohe (think it was a V6, - Honda maybe). I took my wife to Pukekohe to her first (and last) motorcycle race there to try and convince her that bikes were great - unfortunately Cal Rayborn (from USA) died right in front of where we were sitting, so she would never entertain even the thought of bikes after that!

Thanks Husa - a lot of good stuff on your post!

I have no idea about the guy on the Manx in the photo - at Wigram? in 1960? just trying to find out for someone who had that photo in his posession.

[WilDun]

Just saw his (short lived) Harley Davidson racer for sale.
It's a beautiful machine and as far as I can remember it was a production racer version of the works Aermacchi machine which Renzo Pasolini rode in the world champs in the early seventies (when he and Jarno Sarrinen collided, killing them both, - Monza?).
Was it designed by the Villa brothers in Italy?

340222

[Grumph]

They'd certainly have had input. There was at least one and possibly two of them in NZ thanks to Ginger Molloy.
I think they went up for sale a couple of years back and i don't know where they went.

[Michael Moore]

Here are some photos I took at Laguna Seca AMA national of the 500 Aermacchi (H-D) twin with 4 carbs

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340226

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

Just saw his (short lived) Harley Davidson racer for sale.
It's a beautiful machine and as far as I can remember it was a production racer version of the works Aermacchi machine which Renzo Pasolini rode in the world champs in the early seventies (when he and Jarno Sarrinen collided, killing them both, - Monza?).
Was it designed by the Villa brothers in Italy?

340222

As far as i know it was all Aermacchi till later. villia had a bit to do with them then left to race what became the villia twins and 4.
The water cooled 250 twin came after a few unfruitful years with an aircooled twin
Kiwi legend Bryan Thomas the guy that made the 250 desmo mini manxs made a rather neat Villia v twin replica a few years ago, i have been meaning to post it.
From what i understand the left over techs from aerrmacchi later formed the basis of Cagivas earlier efforts mx then GP.
Afterwards they then became Husky employees when husky moved to Italy. bugger knows what they would do now Husky is just rebadged KTM's
I actually have one of the aermachhi 2 strokes engines sold as Harleys. Pretty sure they were 100% Italian, My father has a minerelli powered 125 Indian as well.
Harley had earlier homegrown (i think) two strokes based on DKW copies like the bantam (hummer?)

there was a right up on that 500 in classic racer with the last year.
From the association with Macchi Harley ended up with handling knowhow and access to top line forks brakes that forked and braked.
I would also assume they gained a fair bit of decent cylinder head design that later appeared on the XR750's
Paso also raced an iron XR750 road racer around Europe.

[Grumph]

Where do you start...Dunlop treaded front and I assume a Goodyear slick rear. The dreadful Scarab front calipers, but at least this version has the back brake on the wheel...
Then if you follow wobbly on the ESE thread, the extra volume of the big reed boxes means it should run very low frequency reeds - which then don't work at the top end.
But if it had been offered, I'd have ridden it, LOL.

[Michael Moore]

That 500 was ridden by Gary Scott, and IIRC it was the 1975 Laguna race where I took the photos.

[WilDun]

I've learnt a lot more on the HD Aermacchis in the last few posts than I ever knew before! From the early seventies until nearly 2000 I had virtually lost track of everything motorcycle and what went on in that period, - thanks to you guys I'm finding out!
So I guess that Pasolini would have ridden the Iron 750 after Cal Rayborn died? (my wife and I witnessed that - and that took the gloss off bikes for a while!) Paso wouldn't have ridden the 750 HD for very long though? - as I remember seeing Jarno Sarrinen doing autographs at the Earls Cort show in London (1973 ?) I do remember both he and Pasolini were killed soon after that.

[husaberg]

I've learnt a lot more on the HD Aermacchis in the last few posts than I ever knew before! From the early seventies until nearly 2000 I had virtually lost track of everything motorcycle and what went on in that period, - thanks to you guys I'm finding out!
So I guess that Pasolini would have ridden the Iron 750 after Cal Rayborn died? (my wife and I witnessed that - and that took the gloss off bikes for a while!) Paso wouldn't have ridden the 750 HD for very long though? - as I remember seeing Jarno Sarrinen doing autographs at the Earls Cort show in London (1973 ?) I do remember both he and Pasolini were killed soon after that.

scroll up
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=jxWweoxJrxMC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=xr750tt+pasolini&source=bl&ots=zwGpXiXvlr&sig=W6ljPHiXDkgj-VHnZNPvEldDlUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYoYmIhdnfAhXDdd4KHeG4AVUQ6AEwCXoECAkQA Q#v=onepage&q=xr750tt%20pasolini&f=false

i never knew for sure the Duc paso was named after him though.
The Harley XR750TT appears to be in the Barber museum.
FRom memory they had reversed oiling.

[Frits Overmars]

You can find just about all there is to know about the two-stroke Aermacchi and AMF-Harley-Davidson racers here:
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t7437-oldies-les-aermacchi-deux-temps (http://www.pit-lane.biz/t7437-oldies-les-aermacchi-deux-temps?highlight=aermacchi)
I took the 500cc twin apart about 1976 (the perks of a technical editor). The gearbox sprocket-mounted rear brake disc had gone by then, but the four reed valves were still in place. Works rider Walter Villa later confided that they'd done an experiment, converting the intakes from reed valve to piston-ported, using a lot of Devcon.
It improved rideability in the wet 1000%, he said.
It's the same story as with the Cagiva 500-4: crankcase suction alone is not very good at fully opening the reeds; exhaust pipe suction is needed as well.
When you close the throttle, combustion stops and pipe suction stops. So when you open the throttle again, the reeds are reluctant to open. So you open the throttle a bit more, and a bit more still, and after a while the cylinder contents are again pure enough to react to a spark, and combustion and pipe suction recommence.
But now the throttle is wide open: an effective high-side recipe.
340230 340234 340231 340232 340233

[Grumph]

I note in the Pit Lane thread, mention of the very pretty 125 they marketed. I had a customer for whom I'd built several Aermacchi replicas - 4 strokes.
He looked around this part of the world for several years for a 125 motor with no success. He was quite keen on my building a replica 125 to round off his collection. Wouldn't have been difficult either - forks and brakes were common Italian stuff. Probably should have sourced an engine from the US - I'm pretty sure the HD badged dirt bike 125's were the same engine.

I've already asked Husa what size is the engine he has, LOL.

[WilDun]

...........
I took the 500cc twin apart about 1976 (the perks of a technical editor). The gearbox sprocket-mounted rear brake disc had gone by then, but the four reed valves were still in place. Works rider Walter Villa later confided that they'd done an experiment, converting the intakes from reed valve to piston-ported, using a lot of Devcon.
It improved rideability in the wet 1000%, he said.
It's the same story as with the Cagiva 500-4: crankcase suction alone is not very good at fully opening the reeds; exhaust pipe suction is needed as well.
When you close the throttle, combustion stops and pipe suction stops. So when you open the throttle again, the reeds are reluctant to open. So you open the throttle a bit more, and a bit more still, and after a while the cylinder contents are again pure enough to react to a spark, and combustion and pipe suction recommence.
But now the throttle is wide open: an effective high-side recipe...........


Very interesting Frits
There was obviously a lot of stuff going on with works machinery that we wouldn't have believed if we had been told back then!!

How can it be that such a simple piece of machinery such as the two stroke engine can become a convoluted mind wrenching piece of machinery?

That's really what keeps these three threads alive! (this thread + Bucket Foundry and ESE). with the promise of ever increasing power dangling ahead, but always just out of reach! Most of the info on two strokes from the sixties up till the two thousands all now more or less available and being drip fed from the regular Gurus on these threads (too many to mention) - this needs to be kept going to combat (or even work in with) "Farcebook":laugh:

[husaberg]

I note in the Pit Lane thread, mention of the very pretty 125 they marketed. I had a customer for whom I'd built several Aermacchi replicas - 4 strokes.
He looked around this part of the world for several years for a 125 motor with no success. He was quite keen on my building a replica 125 to round off his collection. Wouldn't have been difficult either - forks and brakes were common Italian stuff. Probably should have sourced an engine from the US - I'm pretty sure the HD badged dirt bike 125's were the same engine.

I've already asked Husa what size is the engine he has, LOL.
340236340238340249
I think this is the engine version you want
340237340239
i have this version
340240
I have seen pics of Early Cagiva MX bikes using this engine bottom end

[husaberg]

Re the 250 i had seen plenty of these type pics of the air Cooled version bottom
But not this type. Apologies to Frits if its in the pitlane thread i can't see itss pics without logging in.
340242

340241

lookd like Cagiva carired on with the same design later
340250340251
http://www.motodeimiti.com/cagiva-250-cc-gp/?lang=en

[Michael Moore]

Q.U.B. 500, if it hasn't been posted already

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/Blair500ccSingle.pdf

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

looks like there were at least 3 if not more versions of the 125 racers
340243340244340245340246

this one Water cooled 74
340247

it looks like the 125s may have only used the rounded crankcase with similar clutch side shape to the 4ts
The 125 engines all seem to have brackets to mount to the frame either front or rear or just put on backwards
The 1969 1970 1971
Seem to be what you are after later 125's have diffferent right side cases and clutch gear and kickstart. pic below. the bulges is a autolube pump
I am not sure if the later top ends bolt on to early cases but the later ones appear all alloy.
The 125's are all 3 port though the 175 and 250s seem to be 5 port.

[tjbw]

Q.U.B. 500, if it hasn't been posted already

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/engine/Blair500ccSingle.pdf

cheers,
Michael

QUB 250cc data:

http://yorkshireferret.blogspot.com/2011/05/development-of-qub-250cc-twin-cylinder.html

[husaberg]

i think the 500 did alright in the ulster GP and the few local event races it ran in.
QUB later helped out a 500 GP team with i think Jerry Mcwilliams. running a Harris YZR later Honda and Aprilia in the 250 class
the other part of optima which was a software and tech company that did automotive stuff inc fuel injection that had some tie in with QUB
Colin Seeley handled the running gear. For the early bikes.

oh here they are
http://www.optimum-power.com/Virtual%202-Stroke.htm
http://www.optimum-power.com/default.htm

[husaberg]

You can find just about all there is to know about the two-stroke Aermacchi and AMF-Harley-Davidson racers here:
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t7437-oldies-les-aermacchi-deux-temps (http://www.pit-lane.biz/t7437-oldies-les-aermacchi-deux-temps?highlight=aermacchi)
I took the 500cc twin apart about 1976 (the perks of a technical editor). The gearbox sprocket-mounted rear brake disc had gone by then, but the four reed valves were still in place. Works rider Walter Villa later confided that they'd done an experiment, converting the intakes from reed valve to piston-ported, using a lot of Devcon.
It improved rideability in the wet 1000%, he said.
It's the same story as with the Cagiva 500-4: crankcase suction alone is not very good at fully opening the reeds; exhaust pipe suction is needed as well.
When you close the throttle, combustion stops and pipe suction stops. So when you open the throttle again, the reeds are reluctant to open. So you open the throttle a bit more, and a bit more still, and after a while the cylinder contents are again pure enough to react to a spark, and combustion and pipe suction recommence.
But now the throttle is wide open: an effective high-side recipe.
340230 340234 340231 340232 340233

Copied off the net necessity is the mother of invention. they just could get big enough Reed valves. although TZ750 was probably ample for the HP.

“We’d made a 350 cc version of the 250 twin, which by now was liquid-cooled,” Fabris says. “We also built a 385 cc version of that, and in the final round of the 1973 500 cc Italian Championship at Misano, Bonera gave Phil Read on the four-cylinder MV Agusta a lot of trouble throughout the race, and only narrowly finished second to him, ahead of all the other true 500s, after setting the fastest lap. Well, that set us all thinking about what might be possible with a purpose-built full 500, and since Walter Villa, who had by then also started to ride for us, didn’t like the 385 and wanted to race a full 500 cc bike, we decided to ask our management to let us build one.”

The answer from Harley’s Italian subsidiary’s management was a positive one – but with certain conditions. Though its Italian spinoff was doing okay, the U.S. parent company, then controlled by AMF, was suffering a slide in sales owing to quality issues and increased Japanese competition, so there was a strictly limited budget to develop the bike, and it would have to be offset by making a customer version available. A minimum of 25 examples of this had to be built in order to homologate it for AMA competition. Otherwise, go ahead, guys – see what you can do!

As always in Italy, passion overcame whatever restrictions might have been thought to be imposed, and during the spring of 1974, engine designer Egisto Cataldi – already the creator of the 250/350 cc parallel-twins that would shortly gather up a total of four World titles – worked after hours at home to design the RR500 engine from a clean sheet, with only the gearbox casing and some minor details carried over from the smaller engines.

Overcoming Limitations

Riding The Harley Davidson RR500Like the smaller powerplants, the new Harley RR500 was also a liquid-cooled parallel-twin with a 180-degree crank, and its six transfer/dual intake/single exhaust port cylinders that were canted forward 15 degrees from vertical measured 72 x 60 mm for a capacity of 488 cc.

Unlike its piston-port predecessors, the new Biancone (as in “Big White,” referring to the fact that the factory bike raced in a plain white fairing for a couple of its early races) had a reed-valve engine, in an attempt to soften the power delivery and make the bike more tractable on tighter tracks. However, the problem was that there wasn’t yet a reed valve pack big enough for the bike’s requirements – nobody made them at all in Italy, so they couldn’t even persuade someone local to make them a special design.

The only solution was to use a pair of Yamaha reed valves on each cylinder sourced from the newly launched four-cylinder TZ750, so that meant doubling up on carburetors, too, with two 34 mm Dell’Ortos mounted to each cylinder with the reed blocks splayed apart at an angle for clearance. These were later replaced on the single factory racebike by 34 mm Mikunis, while the total of 18 RR500 engines built (not 25, whatever they told the AMA!) resulted in 16 complete motorcycles being sold to customers that winter for 3,500,000 lire, all of which retained the Dell’Ortos.

Ignition was provided by a self-generating Dansi CDI mounted on the left end of the crank with just 21 degrees of advance, and the 89 hp delivered to the rear wheel at 10,000 rpm (with maximum torque of 50 ft-lb at just 6,800 rpm – quite a two-stroke tractor!) was transmitted via an extractable cassette-type six-speed gearbox with different standard ratios from the 250/350, matched to a 16-plate Surflex dry clutch positioned on the left behind the generator.
https://www.motorcyclemojo.com/2018/07/americas-gp-racer/
Cycle or one of the other US mags had pictures of the internals of The RR250 its was the most beautiful things i had seen when i saw it likely 20 years after it was made.
With its knife beveled gears and Dry clutch and replaceable head inserts and other Italian details.

[WilDun]

There's a lot of stuff I hadn't realized went on in the Harley Davidson world and a lot for me to take in!
HD managed to exist with all types of machinery without actually mixing the two (the "Hog" boys and the "racing" boys) probably all doing their own things, each blissfully unaware of what the other was doing! Masters at marketing I reckon!
Or was it just me being blissfully unaware? :rolleyes:

[OopsClunkThud]

Surprised Harley had issues sourcing reed blocks, they had been using them in the Topper years before this :P

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[husaberg]

There's a lot of stuff I hadn't realized went on in the Harley Davidson world and a lot for me to take in!
HD managed to exist with all types of machinery without actually mixing the two (the "Hog" boys and the "racing" boys) probably all doing their own things, each blissfully unaware of what the other was doing! Masters at marketing I reckon!
Or was it just me being blissfully unaware? :rolleyes:

The HD macchis were based in Italy.
The HD racing Shop in America was tiny and under resourced KR/XR series was there only interest.after the machi 4ts ERS etc finished.
But they were mainly on their own when for instance Cal Rayborn raced in European match races he did so without HD permission or back up.
they did however have a wind tunnel as the XR750TT series was a slippery as all hell, plus access to Jerry Branch etc and a whole raft of tuners giving feedback Obrain it seems was a methodical tuner who put in a lot of efffort.
The XR series had probably one of the best 2 valve heads ever made.
I am, sure AMF US marketing department interfered with the styling and chassis of the Italian wing as some of the last 350's 4T were Harley ugly.

[Grumph]

The HD macchis were based in Italy.
The HD racing Shop in America was tiny and under resourced KR/XR series was there only interest.after the machi 4ts ERS etc finished.
But they were mainly on their own when for instance Cal Rayborn raced in European match races he did so without HD permission or back up.
they did however have a wind tunnel as the XR750TT series was a slippery as all hell, plus access to Jerry Branch etc and a whole raft of tuners giving feedback Obrain it seems was a methodical tuner who put in a lot of efffort.
The XR series had probably one of the best 2 valve heads ever made.
I am, sure AMF US marketing department interfered with the styling and chassis of the Italian wing as some of the last 350's 4T were Harley ugly.

The XR heads were supposed to be based on the 350 Aermacchi ones.

I've stripped a couple of the late 5 speed 350's - and always marvel at how they could turn a light, nimble single into something approaching a HD Road King
for weight and lack of performance....

[Michael Moore]

they did however have a wind tunnel as the XR750TT series was a slippery as all hell

AFAIK the H-D fairings were developed in the CalTech wind tunnel by the Wixom Bros (who made touring fairings). Guzzi had their own wind tunnel.

[husaberg]

AFAIK the H-D fairings were developed in the CalTech wind tunnel by the Wixom Bros (who made touring fairings). Guzzi had their own wind tunnel.
You are most likely 100% i wonder what Guzzi built in WW2
I have read in a few places the stylist had more input into the gp and road bikes right up to that bike Harada had in the latish 90/s
looking at how ugly it was i can understand why.
340268
I know the Derbi bikes were extensively wind tunnel tested. but were still pretty
340269
Others one would think so did have pretty good access to a tunnel aermacchi seeing as the made planes same with MV and helicopters.

Guzzi would have need the tunnel given there light slippery singles philosophy after and prior to the mutis early 4 and late 8's

one of the American GSXr's that were entered in the UFO tests that Sportbike used to have actually used a one based on a XR750TT fairing.
340270
https://www.sportrider.com/sr-archive-sims-engineering-suzuki-gsx-r1216-ufo-1996#page-4
195 MPH

According to Cameron Kawasaki used to test all the 2t's somewhere in snow country USA in the middle of winter and then wonder why they gave less power and melted in Summer.
Jack Williams wanted to get a flow bench and was told unless it was made by AMC he couldn't have one so he had to make one.


The XR heads were supposed to be based on the 350 Aermacchi ones.

I've stripped a couple of the late 5 speed 350's - and always marvel at how they could turn a light, nimble single into something approaching a HD Road King
for weight and lack of performance....
i would not be surprised To be fair though Harley had 50 years to develop a 2 Valve head.
The lower frame rails and massive centerstand on the late SS350's i think were leadglide parts

[Michael Moore]

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/aero/freespeed150a.jpg

though

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/aero/freespeed150f.jpg

Here's some history on the Wixom brothers by Craig Vetter in which the KR and XR fairings are discussed. It was very convenient for H-D to work with Wixom since Jerry Branch had his shop doing the cylinder head work for H-D above the Wixoms.

http://capttop.blogspot.com/2008/02/motorcycle-years-from-motorcycle-design.html

I had a long-track XR fairing on my Laverda, but it was at the end of the road for the project and I never raced with it:

340273

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/aero/freespeed150a.jpg

though

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/aero/freespeed150f.jpg

Here's some history on the Wixom brothers by Craig Vetter in which the KR and XR fairings are discussed. It was very convenient for H-D to work with Wixom since Jerry Branch had his shop doing the cylinder head work for H-D above the Wixoms.

http://capttop.blogspot.com/2008/02/motorcycle-years-from-motorcycle-design.html

I had a long-track XR fairing on my Laverda, but it was at the end of the road for the project and I never raced with it:

340273

cheers,
Michael
I remember seeing that first one do you have the rest?

[Michael Moore]

As I said, a through f is the full set. You can either manually change the letter in the link to step through them, or trim the link to go into the folder

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/aero/

[guyhockley]

Couple of posts about 2 Stroke cars on ESE, reminded me of this.
A UK car magazine did an article about the Volvo with an Evinrude V8 Outboard engine in it.
Not very informative, and obviously written by someone with no real knowledge of 2 strokes, there was one bit that made me smile: he "quoted" the builders as having said that they Hydra-formed the exhausts...
Cock-up or quite clever joke?

[Frits Overmars]

A UK car magazine did an article about the Volvo with an Evinrude V8 Outboard engine in it.... he "quoted" the builders as having said that they Hydra-formed the exhausts...
Cock-up or quite clever joke?Probably just a typo; the pipes were hydroformed. But there is also some Hydra resemblance :msn-wink:.
340312 340313 340314

[husaberg]

There is videos on the net of that car being built but i have never seen any articles there was a build one that showed the fabrication that was amazing work but i cant find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiWpJLokEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmnsXTMLzCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eAk9oTJAao
I never noticed it breathed from beneath and had throttle bodies?

[Grumph]

That's the problem with the OMC V layout. They breathe through the bottom of the crankcase. Not a problem when the shaft is vertical as sidedraft carbs are fine.
Memory says the single seater built here in NZ which used a smaller OMC V4 had the engine inverted in relation to that Volvo. Couple of twin choke downdraft Webers sitting on top. Compromised pipe layout of course...but imagine changing jets in that Volvo....

[husaberg]

That's the problem with the OMC V layout. They breathe through the bottom of the crankcase. Not a problem when the shaft is vertical as sidedraft carbs are fine.
Memory says the single seater built here in NZ which used a smaller OMC V4 had the engine inverted in relation to that Volvo. Couple of twin choke downdraft Webers sitting on top. Compromised pipe layout of course...but imagine changing jets in that Volvo....

i think it may have fuel injection in the first video i can see throttle bodies

<a href="https://imgflip.com/gif/2qy0ux"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/2qy0ux.gif" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

[WilDun]

That 2 stroke Volvo is very interesting of course and it can probably GO!....... but (in terms of bikes ), I was just thinking that it demonstrates very clearly why two strokes have been failing in the popularity stakes in recent years (and I hate to see that happening), first is that the plumbers nightmare of exhaust pipes on a multi cylinder two stroke is a very obvious problem and the second is that the smoke coming from a two stroke engine which has been idling for a little while ( also demonstrated by the Suter) is unaccepable to the general public, who have been primed to think that way by four stroke manufacturers, aided and abetted by politicians (the politcians also having been primed by four stroke manufacturers).

I do know that I gripe a bit, but my gripe is always consistent! - I get myself into all sorts of trouble because of this - and I'll be accused of being NEGATIVE - so I need to say that ..... (to me) being POSITIVE is not about sitting on our arses, squealing about being treated unfairly, ignoring the facts and therefore not dealing with them, (cos they don't exist you see!:rolleyes:) and manufacturers rather than lose money fighting the trend, just capitulate and build complicated expensive four strokes to keep the newly converted (and dopey) customers happy :facepalm:

Me? - I don't think that I carry enough clout or have enough knowledge or ability to address this terrible situation as it stands, but even a dozey old bugger like me can see what is happening.:confused:

[Michael Moore]

Walter Kaaden at MZ reportedly commented that he knew a 2T exhaust was getting near the right dimensions when it couldn't be put on the bike without dragging, burning the rider, or requiring the relocation of some other major component (including the rider).

Somewhat like this Zabel RGV special:

340390

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

Walter Kaaden at MZ reportedly commented that he knew a 2T exhaust was getting near the right dimensions when it couldn't be put on the bike without dragging, burning the rider, or requiring the relocation of some other major component (including the rider).
cheers,
Michael

An "oddball" indeed! - but that proves my point conclusively! Walter Kaaden certainly put the two stroke on the map and even he accepted how it would really turn out.
I wonder if he had been younger and had moved to say America, would he have found the cash to work out a solution to stave off the four stroke advance? - I bet he would have made that effort!
Too late to try unfortunately, as far as non competition motorcycles are concerned anyway, but there is still a chance with aircraft and for providing lighweight constant speed power such as generators etc. (not meaning stationary engines).

Hopefully, I'm not causing upset amongst the 'dyed in the wool' two stroke motorcycle fraternity ...... sacrilege! :rolleyes:

[Frits Overmars]

Hopefully, I'm not causing upset amongst the 'dyed in the wool' two stroke motorcycle fraternity ...... You probably consider me 'dyed in the wool', but I don't feel upset; you're quite right about several things. I consider two-strokes a hobby nowadays. If I had any sense, I would concentrate on fuel cells by now.

I made myself rather unpopular by writing: "Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and it will probably stay that way forever".
But fuel cells don't necessarily need hydrogen any more; some of them can digest alcohol, petrol or even diesel.
Which corroborates another one of my observations: "The best way to pack hydrogen atoms is between carbon atoms".
No need for superhigh pressures and superlow temperatures; you just pull up at the gas station and fill up your tank like you've always done. So no need for converting those gas stations either :D.
340391

[lohring]

Now we're getting way off topic, but so far fuel cells can't compete with batteries on cost. They probably will have a place on larger vehicles, but even in trucks batteries seem to be good enough. Toyota doesn't agree so we'll see.

Lohring Miller, two stroke hobbyist for 60 years

[WilDun]

You probably consider me 'dyed in the wool', but I don't feel upset; you're quite right about several things. I consider two-strokes a hobby nowadays. If I had any sense, I would concentrate on fuel cells by now.
I made myself rather unpopular by writing: "Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and it will probably stay that way forever".


No, Frits, I don't consider you that! as you show a lot of interest in anything mechanical - I was meaning those who will focus on only one thing, whether it is right or wrong and are totally blind to the reality of the situation!

A little like the ultra modern (PC) types - all very "positive " people ...... This modern type of "positivity" is just a rehash of what we used to describe as "burying your head in the sand"!

Sorry Lohring, - getting off track again! - then that's me! :rolleyes:

[190mech]

Seeing mention of H-D in previous posts,I remembered years back when H-D had a promising new design that could have allowed them to produce a modern V twin sport bike,but nope they were making huge money on 1930's tech and didnt want to change..It was the VR1000
https://www.odd-bike.com/2016/03/harley-davidson-vr1000-gods-own-voice.html

[WilDun]

Seeing mention of H-D in previous posts,I remembered years back when H-D had a promising new design that could have allowed them to produce a modern V twin sport bike,but nope they were making huge money on 1930's tech and didnt want to change..It was the VR1000
https://www.odd-bike.com/2016/03/harley-davidson-vr1000-gods-own-voice.html

Very good article on HD and they did make the effort in racing, but Harley's sales didn't really depend a lot on road racing, (except at the the beginning), more on the "look at me" image of the fashion industry which, (to me) is "bullshit" but I'm obviously in the minority!
Any company is set up to make money, not to lose money after all! ...... and remember, the customer is always right.
How many times when you mention that you have a motorcycle do you immediately hear "a Harley?" - that is making money! ...... The main difference here is, the 'fashion' industry needs to change it's fashion on a yearly basis and Harley manages on around a 50 year basis! :laugh:

The bike scene is very different to what it was in my earlier days - Royal Enfield in India grew out of a mundane and outdated 500cc "Bullet" which was based on a pre war British design, which they purchased and faithfully reproduced for many years ...... this in a country needing transport - not high output racing machinery - BTW, I've heard that they have purchased Ducati (think that it's true but need to find out).

All just proves that anything can happen and ideas can change - who would have thought that the supremacy of two stroke road bikes would virtually disappear in a matter of 3 or 4 decades - unthinkable! :facepalm:

[husaberg]

Seeing mention of H-D in previous posts,I remembered years back when H-D had a promising new design that could have allowed them to produce a modern V twin sport bike,but nope they were making huge money on 1930's tech and didnt want to change..It was the VR1000
https://www.odd-bike.com/2016/03/harley-davidson-vr1000-gods-own-voice.html

Harley had the opportunity and even i believe had a Britten engine on loan to look at prior, but instead chose to go their own way with Porsche designing the top end.
Plus for some reason they keep it too portly using what was a road spec engine casings
By all accounts it was a sweet handler had a great chassis and brakes but they wouldn't tune it to produce the 15hp or so HP needed to complete at the highest level shit they would even install a 6 speed box for about 3 years.
I would say neither their heart or money was in it and it was just used as a test bed for the V rod engine.
It was a pretty bike and used nearly all US parts and suppliers penske shocks and forks willwood brakes one of the frames was from a US mountain bike company the other from a olace that built Truck extrusions.

[guyhockley]

Bit late to the party...

[guyhockley]

First lot seem to be in reverse order. Sorry.

[guyhockley]

Cathcart's opinion...

[guyhockley]

From Classic Racer magazine

[guyhockley]

Journalists not so good at maths?

[guyhockley]

From french and dutch magazines

[guyhockley]

Air-cooled version. Some images from

http://zweitakte.de/modelle/Motoren/Aermacchi/250er_Aircooled.htm

That site also has a page on the 125

http://zweitakte.de/modelle/renn/Aermacchi_125Aletta.htm

http://zweitakte.de has lots of other good stuff, too