Oddball engines and prototypes

[Grumph]

They gave up on it for real stuff a few years ago, they held onto it longer than they should have, corporate pride I think

Persevered for 20 years...till they could abandon it without losing face.

Have you still got the cameron stuff about 5V ? i'm assuming an analysis of the FZR ? I've never seen it and if you were quoting him re compression and burning, he got it wrong IMO...I've built quite a few of the bastards and have my own ideas about what's wrong with the layout.

A lot of the early Yamaha 2V stuff is very Toyota in the port layout. Inlets too big and ex too small. The 5V suffers from the same imbalance.

[husaberg]

Persevered for 20 years...till they could abandon it without losing face.

Have you still got the cameron stuff about 5V ? i'm assuming an analysis of the FZR ? I've never seen it and if you were quoting him re compression and burning, he got it wrong IMO...I've built quite a few of the bastards and have my own ideas about what's wrong with the layout.

A lot of the early Yamaha 2V stuff is very Toyota in the port layout. Inlets too big and ex too small. The 5V suffers from the same imbalance.

I have it somewhere think its a bit water damaged but I think I know where it is (or was anyway.)
They had a slave engine single donk the 7 valve was better but only just.
I think I have one with just the stiuff on the FZR as well.
I always like the three layer Yamaha head though.
it was def in Cycleworld anyway.
Can't beat Cameron or Jennings for detail.

[J.A.W.]

Cameron is considered, worthy IMO.. Jennings.. nah.. a tad - passe`

[Grumph]

I have it somewhere think its a bit water damaged but I think I know where it is (or was anyway.)
They had a slave engine single donk the 7 valve was better but only just.
I think I have one with just the stiuff on the FZR as well.
I always like the three layer Yamaha head though.
it was def in Cycleworld anyway.
Can't beat Cameron or Jennings for detail.

Slave engine single....are you talking the Britten single ? Kelford made a fortune off that, after every short dyno run, cams and followers had to be redone.

First example of the 3 layer head i know of is the Offy - but that was probably copied off a Miller anyway. Harry was pretty clever.

[husaberg]

Cameron is considered, worthy IMO.. Jennings.. nah.. a tad - passe`

hes been dead for long time so I am not that surprised you find him passe.........

[husaberg]

Slave engine single....are you talking the Britten single ? Kelford made a fortune off that, after every short dyno run, cams and followers had to be redone.

First example of the 3 layer head i know of is the Offy - but that was probably copied off a Miller anyway. Harry was pretty clever.

No Yamaha had one there was photos of it in the article.
They had rigged it up f=with 5 and 4 and 7 valve heads for testing (I guess even Yamaha has a budget lol)
I never seen the single was it a horizontal?

[J.A.W.]

True, but the classics still stand up.. ( "on the shoulders of giants")

Jennings ( I find) - a bit too opinionated/prescriptive.. & wrong..

[Grumph]

No Yamaha had one there was photos of it in the article.
They had rigged it up f=with 5 and 4 and 7 valve heads for testing (I guess even Yamaha has a budget lol)
I never seen the single was it a horizontal?

I never saw it either but it was described to me in "colourful" terms....it did lay down and die in the end though.
I have no idea if any bits survive but given the hate for it I've heard, I'd doubt it.

[husaberg]

I never saw it either but it was described to me in "colourful" terms....it did lay down and die in the end though.
I have no idea if any bits survive but given the hate for it I've heard, I'd doubt it.

So it was a tits up engine configuration
I will see if I can find it after league tomorrow.

[J.A.W.]

Persevered for 20 years...till they could abandon it without losing face.

Have you still got the cameron stuff about 5V ? i'm assuming an analysis of the FZR ? I've never seen it and if you were quoting him re compression and burning, he got it wrong IMO...I've built quite a few of the bastards and have my own ideas about what's wrong with the layout.

A lot of the early Yamaha 2V stuff is very Toyota in the port layout. Inlets too big and ex too small. The 5V suffers from the same imbalance.

Sure, but Yam went proddy 4V ( TX 500) in the early `70s - 'bout the same time as Honda did ( XL 2/350).. so what was the 5V really about?

Big noting.. or TBO valve clearance-wise..

[husaberg]

Sure, but Yam went proddy 4V ( TX 500) in the early `70s - 'bout the same time as Honda did ( XL 2/350).. so what was the 5V really about?

Big noting.. or TBO valve clearance-wise..

At the time Yamaha were in a technology war with Honda.

[J.A.W.]

At the time Yamaha were in a technology war with Honda.

"At the time..."? As opposed to when?

[husaberg]

"At that time"? As opposed to when?

In the early eighty's around 82 Yamaha launched an all out attack on Hondas market share.
There was an explosion in number of models from Yamaha. It went on for about 4 years Yamaha lost.
They were both likely losing money but Honda had deeper pockets.
Its been pretty well documented in the industry.
Think back to how many different models and engine sizes and new bikes every few years there was then and now.

[J.A.W.]

Yamaha had won the 2T VS 4T G.P. war with Honda in the `60s..
But their early 4T efforts didn't work out so well..

Their "would be better Commando" TX 750 fell over as a Honda 750/4 rival..

& they didn't really show any impressive 4T effort 'til the `78 XS 1100..

( & I have respect for that behemoth.. having done a significantly sub 7 hour cruise from Auck-to-Well on one),
That big tank was good for non-stop range compared to an H2's high speed thirst.. I can testify..

[husaberg]

Yamaha had won the 2T VS 4T G.P. war with Honda in the `60s..
But their early 4T efforts didn't work out so well..

Their "would be better Commando" TX 750 fell over as a Honda 750/4 rival..

& they didn't really show any impressive 4T effort 'til the `78 XS 1100..

( & I have respect for that behemoth.. having done a significantly sub 7 hour cruise from Auck-to-Well on one),
That big tank was good for non-stop range compared to an H2's high speed thirst.. I can testify..

Not really with you on that one Honda won more championships by a long way.
Honda did throw a lot more money at it though.
Honda couldn't stay competitive when the gears and cylinder sizes went down regardless.
If they had have stayed in they would have had to go 2 stroke and that would have been only a last resort.
Yamaha had the better of them near the end granted.

[J.A.W.]

Nah, Honda stayed 4T bent.. & pulled out of G.P.s in the `60s..

Yamaha won G.P.s through the `70s, & when Honda came back at the end of the decade, with their super-expensive NR 4T.. they failed..

It was only when they employed their 2T MX-tech with the NS G.P. bikes.. in the `80s - that they won a 500 title..

[husaberg]

Nah, Honda stayed 4T bent.. & pulled out of G.P.s in the `60s..

Yamaha won G.P.s through the `70s, & when Honda came back at the end of the decade, with their super-expensive NR 4T.. thet failed..

It was only when they employed their 2T MX-tech with the NS G.P. bikes.. in the `80s - that they won a 500 title..

Remember Yamaha officially pulled out as well.
They just supported some teams lol
Honda played a bit with endurance and MX. Elsinore remember.
As Honda say the Nr was a design and get experience exercise for the young engineers have a lok who is running HRC and they are all from the NR team.
The NR introduced side mounted radiators USD forks 16inch wheels carbon disks carbon body work, slipper clutches.
it was likely the only time a young group of engineers were let loose to do anything they wanted.
They then did what they could have done all along make a 2t better than everyone else straight away. NS500

[J.A.W.]

Honda won the Daytona 200 with their CR 750/4 in 1970..

Yamaha won it every year from `72 'til the next decade..

Yamaha TR/TZ racers were the staple..for privateers.. not Honda.. in the `70s..

Honda never enters motorsport without intent to win..

NS 500 only got the gig.. after NSR was proven an expensive failure.. & face saving was needful.. even at the cruel psychic expense of going 2T..

& 2Ts don't need "slipper clutch".

[husaberg]

Honda won the Daytona 200 with their CR 750/4 in 1970..

Yamaha won it every year from `72 'til the next decade..

Yamaha TR/TZ racers were the staple..for privateers.. not Honda.. in the `70s..

Honda never enters motorsport without intent to win..

I don't think that's true look at the EXP
Plus the NR
They want to win, but there way.
Like I said Honda were on MX and endurance.
Look at Yamahas results since 1995 its pretty grim reading other than Rossi

[J.A.W.]

Really? What did Honda make of the EXP? It vanished..

NR did what?

& George might take issue with you G.P. results-wise..

Stoner could win on most anything..

[husaberg]

Really? What did Honda make of the EXP? It vanished..

NR did what?

& George might take issue with you G.P. results-wise..

Stoner could win on most anything..
The EXP was about trying clean and FI the CRM used the trapping valve.
The NR slipper clutch carbon disks high rev research v4 tech USD small wheels.
Yeah fair call.

[J.A.W.]

The EXP was about trying clean and FI the CRM used the trapping valve.
The NR slipper clutch carbon disks high rev research v4 tech USD small wheels.
Yeah fair call.

I'd have paid for a proddy EXP.. I did have a go on a CRM.. it was a bit soft.. but that was/is Honda.. 'cept for their compy stuff..

[husaberg]

I'd have paid for a proddy EXP.. I did have a go on a CRM.. it was a bit soft.. but that was/is Honda.. 'cept for their compy stuff..

Could you hear it knocking or was it just like a soft 2t trailie

[J.A.W.]

Soft compared to a 2T MX, but oddly flexible for a trail/enduro..

Too be fair.. I was owner/operating a KTM 380 EXC at the time..

[husaberg]

Persevered for 20 years...till they could abandon it without losing face.

Have you still got the cameron stuff about 5V ? i'm assuming an analysis of the FZR ? I've never seen it and if you were quoting him re compression and burning, he got it wrong IMO...I've built quite a few of the bastards and have my own ideas about what's wrong with the layout.

A lot of the early Yamaha 2V stuff is very Toyota in the port layout. Inlets too big and ex too small. The 5V suffers from the same imbalance.

I have posted it here hi def
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4977

And Here below low res

click on three times
As I said water damaged and missing last page I think
I had some others as well
But paints a rosy picture he was later very scathing of it ESP the IGN lead required with any decent Comp
I will email it to you Greg

[husaberg]

xrtra page

[Grumph]

Reading that long winded lot makes you wonder if he was paid by the word....Pic of complete bike is the F1/endurance genesis that raced in the Suzuka 8hr.
Engine pics are of the production 750.
If he later assumed that the ignition lead was compression dependent he was wrong. The problem is that the generally accepted flow pattern for a 4 valve haed is for two contra rotating streams of inlet mixture to form and follow the cylinder walls down...Superimpose a central stream on this and where does it fit in ? Answer - where and when it can. At some rpm, better than others...Hence the weird ignition curve with twin peaks. From memory, 42deg advance at 4500rpm and then drop back to about 36deg till 8500 where it has to jump to around 45 deg advance. It holds that for a very short time then drops steadily to 30 deg from where it drops back as a rev limiter.
The OW01 is even more extreme although following the same shape - I believe at max they see around 50 deg advance.
My read on this is that at certain rpm, there is either too much turbulence for it to burn or not enough....
What he didn't pick up in those pages anyway is that the center inlet cam is 5 deg advance over the outers - I've always assumed it was to try and get something flowing there before the outers opened...
Another problem is the very high surface/volume ratio in the inlets...there's a pic looking down the ports, I used to describe it as kerbing and channeling. Take too much out and you reduce port velocity too far...
The exhaust valves are really too small also - bigger exhausts always pay dividends in them

And lastly, cam timing...Right up to the 5 valve R1 they kept the inlet on 100deg lobe center, Exhaust usually on 110deg LC....What is it ? a british single from 1950 ? Even keeping std cams, they go much better on 103/105 lobe centers....

[husaberg]

Reading that long winded lot makes you wonder if he was paid by the word....Pic of complete bike is the F1/endurance genesis that raced in the Suzuka 8hr.
Engine pics are of the production 750.
If he later assumed that the ignition lead was compression dependent he was wrong. The problem is that the generally accepted flow pattern for a 4 valve haed is for two contra rotating streams of inlet mixture to form and follow the cylinder walls down...Superimpose a central stream on this and where does it fit in ? Answer - where and when it can. At some rpm, better than others...Hence the weird ignition curve with twin peaks. From memory, 42deg advance at 4500rpm and then drop back to about 36deg till 8500 where it has to jump to around 45 deg advance. It holds that for a very short time then drops steadily to 30 deg from where it drops back as a rev limiter.
The OW01 is even more extreme although following the same shape - I believe at max they see around 50 deg advance.

But as it needed a MAX advance of 50 is an indication it was pretty dire.
My understanding was it wasn't the comp that was causing the huge advance.
it was the resultant shape of the chamber that was a result of achieving a high comp with the engine.
The later OW it seemed to be they could rev high or have acceleration from a high comp, but not both.
Although one tuner from Italy could always get a shit load of HP out of it. Was it Bontempi that raced it? It was always a missile when it raced at the euro tracks.

In one of the street bike mags a guy in WA had one of the works FZ750 engines in a FZR frame.

[Grumph]

Characteristically, things like very high com Z1's with a poor chamber shape, need the big advance right across the range to burn properly.
The 5V yams need the big advance only in specific rpm bands. To me this doesn't indicate a poor chamber shape but that something is happening at those rpm's...
My belief is that it is the turbulence occuring at those points which is causing it.
Whether in fact conditions cause a stall in the turbulence or too much turbulence to sustain fire i don't know...But it's apparent the curves were dyno developed, just throw in advance till it runs right at a given RPM.

[husaberg]

Characteristically, things like very high com Z1's with a poor chamber shape, need the big advance right across the range to burn properly.
The 5V yams need the big advance only in specific rpm bands. To me this doesn't indicate a poor chamber shape but that something is happening at those rpm's...
My belief is that it is the turbulence occuring at those points which is causing it.
Whether in fact conditions cause a stall in the turbulence or too much turbulence to sustain fire i don't know...But it's apparent the curves were dyno developed, just throw in advance till it runs right at a given RPM.

I can't find the Italian tuners name but pretty sure the UKSB Boost bikes were pensioned off ones he had later did as well initially for WSB.

Found it Beppe Russo is the guys name he was the tuner for belgrada and had been working on the Yamaha 750's from 1986 onwards (I'm guessing with Bimota WSB first)
1994 YZf750 158.7 hp @13800rpm

[Frits Overmars]

My understanding was it wasn't the comp that was causing the huge advance.You're right, sort of. It's not the compression ratio per se that requires the huge advantage; in a decent engine the higher this ratio, the less advance would be required. But a high compression ratio screws the combustion chamber shape up until it looks like a wet pancake, and that needs a lot of advantage in order for the flame to get to the mixture in all those nooks & crannies more or less on time.
It was even worse in F1 when they still had the 98 mm bore, 39,75 mm stroke high-revvers. These required over 55° advance at WOT and even more at part-throttle.


I can't find the Italian tuners name but pretty sure the UKSB Boost bikes were pensioned off ones he had later did as well initially for WSB.
Found it Beppe Russo is the guys name he was the tuner for belgrada and had been working on the Yamaha 750's from 1986 onwards.I could have spared you the search Husa, but I was not paying much attention as you guys seem to be writing about foul-strokes lately :devil2:.
I visited Beppe a couple of times because he was using my FOS dyno hard- and software. First run we did was a standard Yamaha 750. It said 150 hp on the brochure and it delivered 120 rear wheel hp on the dyno. Those Japanese PR-guys must have been measuring the power at the piston ring.
BTW: in case you wish to google: it's Belgarda.

[J.A.W.]

I was not paying much attention as you guys seem to be writing about foul-strokes lately

F-O wants 2Ts.. give 'im 2Ts..

www.enginelabs.com/news/video-deltahawk-engines-bringing-a-new-diesel-for-aviation/

[WilDun]

There you go, my very first motorcycle and a two stroke! (Trojan Minimotor)
315655

And (below)my second motorcycle, also a two stroke! (Royal Enfield flying flea.)
BTW. Note the massive drum brake up front, the rubber band front suspension, and the expansion chamber!
This was the military model dropped into Holland and elsewhere for the paratroopers during WW2. - engine was a DKW clone (I'm told).315654315653

I am first and foremost a two stroke enthusiast of course, but if I wait till two strokes make a comeback and don't take an interest in anything else, then I'm going to miss out big time!

[ken seeber]

What goes around comes around

http://www.gizmag.com/dan-gurney-moment-cancelling-motorcycle-engine-patent/39344/

Interesting is the power increase with a snazzy inlet passage shaping. Hard to believe. Maybe that's what Harry has done with all his transfer ports. :msn-wink:

[J.A.W.]

Looks like 1/2 a square 4..

[husaberg]

What goes around comes around

http://www.gizmag.com/dan-gurney-moment-cancelling-motorcycle-engine-patent/39344/

Interesting is the power increase with a snazzy inlet passage shaping. Hard to believe. Maybe that's what Harry has done with all his transfer ports. :msn-wink:

Very hard to belive the hp isn't. Just that it is just a as result of the shape which is pretty generic motorbike.

Michael Cyst did the contra rotating crank but it sideways.

The contra cranks has its advantages but costs a lot more, with more parts etc.
also those primary gears have no hunting tooth.

[ken seeber]

also those primary gears have no hunting tooth.

Hooser, you're right, but there are a couple of ways to look at it. As the PCD is much larger than a normal sized primary drive gear, the tooth loading is much less. However, in this case he seems to be playing with 4 = foul strokes and I am assuming that only one of the two cylinders fires each rev. This being the case, the teeth in mesh at the time of combustion would see a load reversal on each consecutive revolution. ie, if the front cylinder was firing, it would be "driving" the rear cylinder, and the reverse would apply the next revolution. Yes, no hunting tooth, but certainly a load reversal seen by the teeth, half the wear? However this doesn't apply to classic tandem twin 2 strokes: Rotax 256 and Kawasaki 250s.

[husaberg]

Hooser, you're right, but there are a couple of ways to look at it. As the PCD is much larger than a normal sized primary drive gear, the tooth loading is much less. However, in this case he seems to be playing with 4 = foul strokes and I am assuming that only one of the two cylinders fires each rev. This being the case, the teeth in mesh at the time of combustion would see a load reversal on each consecutive revolution. ie, if the front cylinder was firing, it would be "driving" the rear cylinder, and the reverse would apply the next revolution. Yes, no hunting tooth, but certainly a load reversal seen by the teeth, half the wear? However this doesn't apply to classic tandem twin 2 strokes: Rotax 256 and Kawasaki 250s.

Yeah but the output too be more than a 250 twin or 500v or sq four.
im picking it 2 180 twins coupled together.
I can't see t being a goer for anything other than a TQ or midget kind of stuff etc.
A boxer likely does everything better cheaper. Other than gyro.

[WilDun]

I can't see t being a goer for anything other than a TQ or midget kind of stuff etc.
A boxer likely does everything better cheaper. Other than gyro.

Yeah probably good for racing stuff where it is being checked out regularly and where gear noise isn't a real problem, (high peripheral speeds) but for road going machines maybe not so good. .....Probably! :)

Only thing against boxers really is width.

[Frits Overmars]

Only thing against boxers really is width.Not necessarily,Will.
315816

[Grumph]

Not necessarily,Will.

Can we agree that they do present packaging problems ?
I look at that Koenig and see the engine as far forward as it can go without the front wheel rubbing spark plug caps - and the swingarm as short as possible with the pivot hard against the gearbox.
Bear in mind here that the old man raced Douglas's - and restored one which i rode a bit too - so we had a family history of inline boxers...

I bet Kim Newcombe would have loved some of the low profile plug caps now available. Could have lost about an inch and a half in the wheelbase....

[husaberg]

Can we agree that they do present packaging problems ?
I look at that Koenig and see the engine as far forward as it can go without the front wheel rubbing spark plug caps - and the swingarm as short as possible with the pivot hard against the gearbox.
Bear in mind here that the old man raced Douglas's - and restored one which i rode a bit too - so we had a family history of inline boxers...

I bet Kim Newcombe would have loved some of the low profile plug caps now available. Could have lost about an inch and a half in the wheelbase....


Not necessarily,Will.



There is a Boxer on a 45 so rear cylinder under gearbox and front on a 45 I can't place it. It was a 125 I have posted it before it was a Euro but I don't think it was a Helmut Fath either.

found it anyone remember what it was
My moneys on Frits answering first
I would prefer it angled the other way though.
315819315818

Here is an other but I like the first one better no idea what the background on this is either other than it has Yamaha bits on a CNC crankcase
315820315821

[Frits Overmars]

Can we agree that they do present packaging problems ?Not necessarily, Grumph :p.
OK, you can't crib, so you will have to do some thinking of your own. Like so, for example:
315822

[J.A.W.]

We're not confusing 'boxers' here - with horizontally opposed - are we, since not all of the latter - are also the former..

& if Frits would be so kind, to offer his view of the worth of a - TZ 750 running a 90' "cross-plane" crank configuration - in place of the standard 180`..

[J.A.W.]

Please Kindly remove yourself from my thread.

Since when did you take over the forum Mr Presumptuous? My point is fair, so don't get snitty, - just because you dont understand..

FYI, a flat 12 Porsche is horizontally opposed cylinder-wise, but it is not a 'boxer'.. it is, technically a 180` wide angle V12..

[Frits Overmars]

if Frits would be so kind, to offer his view of the worth of a - TZ 750 running a 90' "cross-plane" crank configuration - in place of the standard 180`..It would improve the sound a lot: a true screamer. It would also spread the torque pulses, so the transmission will last longer and you can use a softer (grippier) rear tire compound. It would require re-arranging the ignition pickups, but nothing fancy like grinding other camshafts. Goes for TZ500 too. So who's going to be the first to try it?

[J.A.W.]

Thanks for the feedback Frits, it does indeed sound like a reasonable prospect - for a progressive project.

[J.A.W.]

Pop down to the Bowling Club or RSA and bore them:yes:

Do you take your Porsche engines down there for a rebore do you then V? Too funny, if that's your level of technical nous.. give it a rest..

Boxer, or not? See here.. www.autoevolution.com/news/there-s-a-big-difference-between-a-boxer-and-flat-engine-85305.html

[WilDun]

Not necessarily,Will.

Or was it length? -well, one of the two! ;)

[Voltaire]

Do you take your Porsche engines down there for a rebore do you then V? Too funny, if that's your level of technical nous.. give it a rest..

Boxer, or not? See here.. www.autoevolution.com/news/there-s-a-big-difference-between-a-boxer-and-flat-engine-85305.html

Yes your right, I'll get back to my airhead BMW's, Ducatis, Norton, Guzzi's and VW Type 2's and leave you armchair experts to it :woohoo:

[J.A.W.]

Yes your right, I'll get back to my airhead BMW's, Ducatis, Norton, Guzzi's and VW Type 2's and leave you armchair experts to it :woohoo:

Probably best V, since "airhead" is a good descriptor for you, given the sorry standard of topic contribution you make..

Have you ever wondered why a BMW boxer twin sounds like an old school Norton Commando?

Check the firing configuration.. it is the same..
..since the the boxer 180` crank pin added to the 180`flat cylinders = 360`, & gives even firing - same as the Norton running a 360`crank & 0`cylinder angle..

Inertia torque & other matters, such as actual practicability of packaging - in a motorcycle chassis are another issue, of course.. ( & BMW did go 360`vertical twin)..

[J.A.W.]

Check this high-efficiency 2T CI turbo-compound aero-engine design done by Garrett for NASA.. ~1000hp from 2.2 Ltr.. ( or a ~ 500hp/1.1 Ltr triple)..
www.ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930001160.pdf

[Voltaire]

Probably best V, since "airhead" is a good descriptor for you, given the sorry standard of topic contribution you make..

Have you ever wondered why a BMW boxer twin sounds like an old school Norton Commando?

Check the firing configuration.. it is the same..
..since the the boxer 180` crank pin added to the 180`flat cylinders = 360`, & gives even firing - same as the Norton running a 360`crank & 0`cylinder angle..

Inertia torque & other matters, such as actual practicability of packaging - in a motorcycle chassis are another issue, of course.. ( & BMW did go 360`vertical twin)..

Really...tell me more things I don't know...Malcy and I are patiently waiting for more of your wisdom :laugh:
315831

[WilDun]

Getting back to Husa's pics (and on Husa's thread) of the flat twin two stroke, ie the first one, which I think is likely to be a boxer, was quite a good layout - wonder how it went?

[malcy25]

..... spread the torque pulses, so the transmission will last longer and you can use a softer (grippier) rear tire compound. It would require re-arranging the ignition pickups, but nothing fancy like grinding other camshafts. Goes for TZ500 too. So who's going to be the first to try it?

Spread the torque pulses better. yep.
Use a softer, grippier tyre. None. It will NEED a softer grippier tyre (see below).
It would require re-arranging the ignition pickups.....yep - and 4 of them, not two.
....but nothing fancy like grinding other camshafts. LOL, no, nothing ike grinding camshafts I would hope given it is a 2 stroke - just something fancy like building NEW crankshafts at 1100 euro or a 1000 pounds each (and there are 2 remember on top of the ignition costs).
Goes for TZ500 too. Yep, but same rules apply given they are the same engine architecture. Note, their crankshafts are not in aftermarket production like the TZ750 ones are and they are a lot trickier beast they are like little dumbells, (sort of like J.A.W) for the inner pair IIRC and mains that clamp around the shaft. The big end pins and outer flywheels then press on outside of that.

Lol, J.A.W. has missed a very key point here in his trolling. The question he asked of me a while back and I said why "would you?" being why would some one want to build a TZ750 which fired a cylinder every 90 degrees, rather than the two up, 2 down, 180 degree phasing (ie leave stock). He then attempted to dribble about inertial torque. That may all be nice but you have to ask why did Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Cagiva with their 500's in the 90's ditch 180 (most bar Honda who did use 90) and then in the 2000's Yamaha moved to their M1 cross plane set up and effectively a Big bang set up which closed up (not evened out) the firing order at the expense of a more even crank shaft speed/inertia?

The short answer was giving the tyre a "rest period". It didn't go any quicker, it didn't make more power, but it created better race times as the rear tyre lasted longer as the tyre had an easier time. Interestingly, Yamaha said they got a better connection between the throttle and tyre on the M1 (see link). A happy side benefit was more riders could ride the bikes with the droner motor and the racing got closer. Why did Honda go back to the screamer? One word. Or in this case a name. DOOHAN. He had the skills to survive the screamer and he did it for no other reason as he had won a few championships and wanted to screw with the order riders heads. A few Honda riders tried it and hurt themselves or scared themselves bad enough, that they said no thanks. That won Doohan another championship or 2, probably at the start of the season as the competition were buggered before they started....purely in their own heads.

Here's what Masao Furusawa had to say about this. Note this is written around 4 strokes and Yamah's M1 where the cross plane crank is phased 90 (or thereabouts) but the firing is odd ball (and closer to TZ750 at paired 180 apart). The old 180 degree crank 4 stroke would be more akin to a TZ750 at acylinder every 90 degrees.(Ie more evened out), given the TZ750 is a 2 stroke and fires every cylinder, every revolution vs the 4 stroke very second one.

"Uneven firing plays winning tune for Yamaha"
http://articles.sae.org/5586/

You only have to see what Harley has done in mile and half mile in the US for the last 40 years to get a big hint on this as well.

So, basically J.A.W. is talking shite and trying to drag you into his argument with me (plus trying to do a Helen Clark by trying to "Play the man" not the game, or in this case the discussion).

While a TZ750 which fired 1 cylinder every 90 degrees might see a benefit in crank inertia and gearbox loading, that's the only benefit I see and that is from purely an engineering sense, yep. But theory and reality are very different things. So is riding skill. I live in reality and with the knowledge of what my riding skill is. I'd rather a bike that doesn't chew tyres and want to highside me - convinienently that is the one that would give me the best lap time too. Racers don't care HOW, they care HOW FAST.

Noting also the TZ750 chassis is not the schmickest of things.....and it needs all the help it can get to get the power to the back tyre and not create tyre smoke.

Now a TZ750 with a very UNEVEN firing order (ie all cylinders over in say 100/110 degrees) would sounds like crap, be very hard on the gearbox, but create a very good racing result in comparison.

Interesing story. I buy a TZ750 years ago and I got inundated with "advice" on how to ride it etc. Was some classic stuff of 'do this", "don't do that". BAR TWO EXCEPTIONs, NONE of those people trying to "advise" me had ever ridden one or owned one - they were all basically full of shit with no first hand experience. One person that fell outside of that was the guy I bought the bike off and had skills. The other didn't try to give advice just a sage warning.

So J.A.W. what's your story? Ridden one with enough saddle time to impart actual knowledge, owned one, or.......?

Remember, it's my bat, ball and cheque book, so I get to decide what I do with my bike. By all means, spend the 65000 dollars of your own money so you can try it. Share the knowledge when you do.

Signed, the "stick in the mud" .

[malcy25]

Hilariously uniformed blather ( that's being kind, more like being arrogant to the point of wilful stupidity) from Marcy..

I do hope Frits will be gentle..

I'm well aware of Fritz's knowledge. But I will argue the point with him about cranks and it's not just a simple rejig of ignition.....

As for you...whatever.

[Frits Overmars]

why did Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Cagiva... a Big bang set up which closed up (not evened out) the firing order at the expense of a more even crank shaft speed/inertia?
The short answer was giving the tyre a "rest period".May I suggest some more reading on the subject, Malcy? http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp


I do hope Frits will be gentle..I try to be; I'm not here to take part in a mud-slinging contest. I don't even understand why it is going this way, but I seriously consider giving this thread a rest for a couple of weeks, hoping that peace will have returned by then.

[husaberg]

May I suggest some more reading on the subject, Malcy? http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp

I try to be; I'm not here to take part in a mud-slinging contest. I don't even understand why it is going this way, but I seriously consider giving this thread a rest for a couple of weeks, hoping that peace will have returned by then.
Hence my polite request
Don't go though Frits I have asked for this thread to be moved to the seniors section I am waiting to hear back.
My own thought would be the R1 has much closer centers and has a proper balance shaft for the rocking.

What was the 125 I posted Frits can you recognise it?

[malcy25]

I try to be; I'm not here to take part in a mud-slinging contest. I don't even understand why it is going this way, but I seriously consider giving this thread a rest for a couple of weeks, hoping that peace will have returned by then.

Frits, don't worry, I'm with you on that one. Dunno what JAW's plan is as he's the source of most of it here and a number of posts elsewhere.

Would love to chew the fat with you and understand the differences of what you say about rear tyre vs what Masao Furusawa says as you seem to have opposing views. I'll have a read soon, when I get a chance and come back once I have read wghat you say. I guess the nagging question in my mind is why do Motogp etc still use an odd firing order if there is no perceived benefit (or in your view an actual detriment) to traction and tyre life?

So excuse my overly long post prior - was not aimed at you - more for JAW who seems most interested in how I should operate my motorcycle, at my expense, than worrying about his own.

Cheers

Malcy

[Frits Overmars]

What was the 125 I posted Frits can you recognise it?I think I've seen a picture of it before but I do not know anything about it.
Let's do some guessing: I see two Dellorto carbs feeding through a single belt-driven rotary disc. The cylinders seem to be italian Morbidelli items, but the exhaust pipes are thinner than the Morbidelli's which strikes me as funny: if you have access to Morbidelli cylinders, you will also have access to the corresponding pipe dimensions, so why not use them? They were pretty good at the time.
Both front and rear suspension are Marzocchi products. And the partially visible number plate on the right could be italian as well, so I would gamble on a spaghetti bike.

[husaberg]

I think I've seen a picture of it before but I do not know anything about it.
Let's do some guessing: I see two Dellorto carbs feeding through a single belt-driven rotary disc. The cylinders seem to be italian Morbidelli items, but the exhaust pipes are thinner than the Morbidelli's which strikes me as funny: if you have access to Morbidelli cylinders, you will also have access to the corresponding pipe dimensions, so why not use them? They were pretty good at the time.
Both front and rear suspension are Marzocchi products. And the partially visible number plate on the right could be italian as well, so I would gamble on a spaghetti bike.

I guess if i can find it on my computer i can do a reverse look with the image code.
I like the layout.

[Mental Trousers]

I don't even understand why it is going this way, but I seriously consider giving this thread a rest for a couple of weeks, hoping that peace will have returned by then.

Just put the idiot on ignore like everyone else is.

[husaberg]

Just put the idiot on ignore like everyone else is.

He might not know who it is as he only sees a few threads Mental.

[Mental Trousers]

He might not know who it is as he only sees a few threads Mental.

It's pretty obvious who should be ignored heh. But the way things are going he'll be crossing the threshold to every post gets automatically put in the moderators queue soon.

[WilDun]

It's pretty obvious who should be ignored heh. But the way things are going he'll be crossing the threshold to every post gets automatically put in the moderators queue soon.

Good, that's sorted then.

Getting back to the contra-rotating thing eg. Rotax Kart engines etc. but more specifically the Kawasaki road going version of the racer which really didn't seem to sell - I was always very keen on that concept.
Did the 'hunting tooth" effect (or lack of) figure in their failure to become popular road bikes, or was there some other reason they didn't catch on?

[J.A.W.]

Good, that's sorted then.

Well, I sure hope the pontification & one-eyed focus on perceived personality issues are.. ( notwithstanding M-25's utterly disingenuous back-pedalling)

Now..

If we could get back to a proper, cooly stated technical discussion based on mechanical matters, that would be welcome.

Manolis has an exellent program on his site - which allows the combination of crank throws,harmonics, power impulses & inertia torque to be analysed..

www.pattakon.com/pattakonEduc.htm

[J.A.W.]

It's pretty obvious who should be ignored heh. But the way things are going he'll be crossing the threshold to every post gets automatically put in the moderators queue soon.


Heh?

Way to blunder about like a bull in a china shop M-T.. for shame..

Why did you cut my invitation to Wobbly to discuss the 90`2T crank issue..
He has done work on adapting RZ 350 mills to run like this, so why not a double crank inline 4 2T (TZ 750) - as well?

& of course, 90`V twins run a 360`crank pin - to give that same firing order..

[Frits Overmars]

building NEW crankshafts at 1100 euro or a 1000 pounds each (and there are 2 remember on top of the ignition costs).I initially overlooked this remark, Malcy. But why would you need to build new crankshafts at all when you want to change your TZ750's firing order from 2x0°-2x180° to 0°-90°-180°-270° ? All you need to do is rotate one crankshaft 90° from its original position. And it need not even be exactly 90° in order to convert you engine to Big Bang. So, irrespective of the number of teeth on the coupling gears, you can have your Big Bang without any mechanical changes to the cranks; you only need to upgrade the ignition.

[malcy25]

I initially overlooked this remark, Malcy. But why would you need to build new crankshafts at all when you want to change your TZ750's firing order from 2x0°-2x180° to 0°-90°-180°-270° ? All you need to do is rotate one crankshaft 90° from its original position.

Frits, good question. My view would be balance would go to the pack across the engine. While the individual canks would be okay still, one side against the other would be dire I'd say. That and the TZ750 cases are notoriously weak - high milage ones crack between the banks due to the way they flap.

Would need to check phasing of crank gears, if you wanted to turn one 90 may just need to create one gear with the key way 90 degrees from original.

But I'd still be concerned about the left vs right aspect. If I was going down that track I'd still want to look at the interaction of all 4 with 2 x 90 degree cranks. But call me a heretic, I'm still not convinced on the 90 degree evening firing ((as I said last night, I need to read your link closer when I have more time).

[J.A.W.]

Dogmatic.. is 'stick in the mud' M-25, - not "heretic", which indicates ( an unwelcome to dogma) readiness to consider change.

Anyhow, if the TZ inline 4 is ordinarily capable of hacking a double firing impulse - crank & trans-wise..
It surely, stands to reason - that dividing those by 1/2 - is going to even out/reduce those extant force-node peaks.. & this carries across the board to rideability.

Yamaha uses the 90`configuration in its current inline R1/M1 4s - as a way of emulating the natural V4 architecture - dynamic recip - process outcomes..

AFAIR, Harry Bartol's G.P. KTM - in its final 250cc iteration - was also doing this ( vertical twin emulating V-twin firing), so there had to be real value in it..

[J.A.W.]

There is still a bit of support about for those big old 2-stroke terrors.. wanna 128hp H2 roadbike? www.ebos.se/eptune-triples.php

[malcy25]

Dogmatic.. is 'stick in the mud' M-25, - not "heretic", which indicates ( an unwelcome to dogma) readiness to consider change.

Anyhow, if the TZ inline 4 is ordinarily capable of hacking a double firing impulse - crank & trans-wise..
It surely, stands to reason - that dividing those by 1/2 - is going to even out/reduce those extant force-node peaks.. & this carries across the board to rideability.

Yamaha uses the 90`configuration in its current inline R1/M1 4s - as a way of emulating the natural V4 architecture - dynamic recip - process outcomes..

AFAIR, Harry Bartol's G.P. KTM - in its final 250cc iteration - was also doing this ( vertical twin emulating V-twin firing), so there had to be real value in it..

JAW: best you buy a new dictionary, as it appears your current one is broken. Oxford says: Heresy "opinion contrary to doctrine of christian church, or to accepted doctrine on any subject." Frits has expoused a different opinion to my perception of which is better - hence my heretic comment at my expense given his knowledge. Heretic works.

It seems you continue to miss the final point in the equation as far as I reckon: The concept of a 90 degree firing phasing on a twin vs a four 2 stroker is quite a different situation. A 90 degree twin like the KTM's did, delivers a 270 degree down period where the perceived wisdom is that this provides the rest period for the tyre. My view is that 90 degree phasing on a 4 cylinder 2 stroke (such as a TZ750) is moot, as it would fill the 270 degrees of down the twin has with the additional cylinder firing, as it would be 0/90/180/270....ie less downtime, and as Frits said about Honda in the link he provided, even Honda ditched this option.

If I had the money to throw at it (But as a poverty stricken road racer that is unlikely to happen), I would like to try a 90 degree crank in my twin. Others already have I believe, but little or no "this is the way ahead" feedback have I heard. But on a 4, nah.

An R1 4 stroke has different dynamic in that it has 720 degrees of crank rotation to fire and group 4 cylinders, so you can create big gaps and get the same effect as the KTM with 270 dgree gaps in places.It also has something that old strokers don't have. A balance shaft.....to correct all those random shakes.

While what you refer to with torque loading aspect on the gearbox etc is "nice", my belief (and happy to be proven wrong with logical proof) it is not so good on the rear tyre. The gear box is built for it, I'm more interested in what the rear is doing as that has a bigger impact on the skin on my arse and my cheque book. You refer a lot to the torque loading and fluctuation from an engineering sense, citing Manolis, but as I've alluded to previously, there is a wider need than purely engineering, the less tangible, but real impacts about feel, tyre and on track dynamics that don't show through pure engineering. I guess it's why GP teams test. Newer, or better design does not always make a better result.

I learned years ago that Suzuki engineers built an odd firing order or big bang RG500 gp bike (like in the early 80's). But as they didn't see any difference on the dyno, they didn't give it to anyone try....I think that fits under the "if only" heading! Imagine if they had. In the same manner, I run a specific jetting set up on one of my bikes that provides no better dyno curve than another set up. But I run the one I do because the "feel" is different and more to my liking. Pure engineering view would say "why bother"

Rgds

[J.A.W.]

JAW: best you buy a new dictionary, as it appears your current one is broken. Oxford says: Heresy "opinion contrary to doctrine of christian church, or to accepted doctrine on any subject."

Still being disingenuous I see, the 'heresy' was mine, according to your 'stick in the mud' dogma, in this actual instance..

& FYI, Mick Doohan reverted to 'screamer' firing order for his NSR 500, & which was duly retained by JB for V. Rossi et al, 'til the end of 500s..

[malcy25]

Still being disingenuous I see, the 'heresy' was mine, according to your 'stick in the mud' dogma, in this actual instance..

& FYI, Mick Doohan reverted to 'screamer' firing order for his NSR 500, which was retained by JB for V Rossi, 'til the end of 500s..

1) Heretic: I used it first. is what it is. Build a bridge.

2) Disingenuous, "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does" . hmmm thanks for the flattery.

3) Doohan. Yes, I referred to that a while back, and why.

4) have you anything useful to add to the discussion yet?

[J.A.W.]

1) Heretic: I used it first. is what it is. Build a bridge.

2) Disingenuous, "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does" . hmmm thanks for the flattery.

3) Doohan. Yes, I referred to that a while back, and why.

4) have you anything useful to add to the discussion yet?


Too funny, & inaccurate as usual..

So here are some facts, to straighten out your curly ones..


1, I used it before you.. re-check post #3528 in the 9/11 thread which refers to this very topic.. ( & dont claim you aint already bloody seen it)..

2, Cap fits, wear it..

3, You dismissed the Doohan 'screamer' re-uptake, & ( slyly, or ignorantly) failed to include the material fact - of the configuration being retained from then on..

4, I was the person who, ah, yeah.. actually started the topic for discussion.. see post #435, this thread..
( & have you canvassed your good buddy Wobbly's consideration of the topic - yet?)

[Frits Overmars]

A 90 degree twin like the KTM's did, delivers a 270 degree down period where the perceived wisdom is that this provides the rest period for the tyre.... 90 degree phasing on a 4 cylinder 2 stroke (such as a TZ750) is moot, as it would fill the 270 degrees of down the twin has with the additional cylinder firing, as it would be 0/90/180/270....ie less downtime.I'm sorry to contradict you Malcy, but the 'rest period for the tire' is persistent incomprehension rather than perceived wisdom. The tire is there to work, not to rest, as I already tried to explain in http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp. You really should take a look there.

[J.A.W.]

Somehow, I doubt this one has a 180`crank phasing set-up.. http://www.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.html

[husaberg]

I'm sorry to contradict you Malcy, but the 'rest period for the tire' is persistent incomprehension rather than perceived wisdom. The tire is there to work, not to rest, as I already tried to explain in http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp. You really should take a look there.

Hello Frits I read your pitlane post with great interest i too am struggling to see the possible improvement. in the case of the TZ750

Doohan didn't like the initial big bang either, Lawson said exactly the same but set the first pole on the Cagiva as soon as the Cagiva was converted to fire alll the cylinders within 0-80 degreess
but both became a convert when he realised the lap times were the same and tire wear was less allowing him to use stickier tyres.
Both also said it was easier to ride.
This one thing in your pitlane post stands out as being counter productive.

Honda even built a 'big bang-screamer': every 90° 1 cylinder firing. That sounded great! But Mick Doohan did not like the bike, so it disappeared....

Is this not exactly what is being proposed here?
My understanding is the dominant 1990's big bang Honda NSR500 which debuted in 92 fired all of its four cylinders within 0-70 degrees.
This was a redesigned engine with a center power take off they also put in a Counter balancer which i also understand helped get rid of the gyro.(the other twin crank V4's never had as soon as Yamaha counter rotated them in the early 80's)
According to everyone at the time. The Honda (as were all the other bikes that were hastily converted to similar firing orders )were actually dramatically easier on tires than it was previously.

They felt slower and were more vibely they suffered reliabilty wise from the hasty conversion (ESP Yamaha and Suzuki).
As they were not designed for it unlike the Honda engine that was, but the lap times went down.
The bikes were easier to ride.
All the other manufacturers then followed suit. Reporting the same thing.
In the same season with Doohan injured Cagiva's were initally more succesfull than the others,even setting their first pole first time out with the big bang, lap times for them fell instantly these were all on the same tyres as previously.

All Honda V4's up to 1989 were 90 degree firing orders in 1990 they went to 180 same as the others. ie two up two down same as a TZ750 this was an improvement

V4 2-Stroke NSR500 up until 1989
000----090----180----270----360
-1-------3--------2-------4-------1-

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor) NSR500 90-91 and then 1997- onwards
000----090----180----270----360
1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Big Bang - V4 2-Stroke NSR500 1992-1997
000----090----180----270----360
-1-3-2-4---------------------1-3-2-4




Doohan's crew chief Jerry Burgess believes the 1990 NSR was the best ever - a huge leap forward. HRC dumped the 90-degree firing order, copying the more forgiving Yamaha's double-strike 180-degree configuration to tame wheelspin.
The 180-degree motor was good but not good enough and still prone to chucking riders over the highside, so excess caution was necessary on corner exits. Doohan


With the engine untouched since crossing the finish line in Brazil, track time on the Rossi bike was cut to the bare minimum. HRC boss Ikenoya revealed that the crankshaft's service life is now 3000km, but the piston rings need changing more often than that, and Jerry Burgess and Co were probably too busy celebrating and preparing to test the V5 four-stroke to do this in the three weeks before our test. But even with just a handful of laps in the hot seat, I immediately appreciated the smoother power delivery from low down, with a less abrupt transition into the strong power zone just above 10,000rpm, but an even stronger hit of top-end power than before. It's a lot easier for 500cc dilettantes to master, and even more of a thrill to twist that throttle grip and force your body weight over the front wheel while accelerating down pit lane towards your appointment with destiny and the moment to think about stopping for turn one. Phew!

The Honda's 112-degree V4 engine has a "Screamer" format that employs 180-degree crank throws and evenly spaced "two-up" firing strokes, thanks to a crankshaft layout that sees the two right-side pistons sparking together, followed 180 degrees later by the two left-side ones. The 5% power loss inflicted by unleaded fuel has taken the razor edge off the Screamer's power delivery. Coupled with better electronic engine-management systems developed in the past decade, this has helped HRC engineers tame the engine's character, while reaping the benefits of its smoother power delivery and more direct throttle response. The Rossi Honda certainly has the usual NSR500 shopping-trolley power delivery low down, pulling cleanly from about 7000rpm out of a tight hairpin before coming on strong about 10,000rpm, when the shrill-sounding note of the slimmer exhausts hardens.

A strong surge of midrange power catapults you down the next straight, especially if you short-shift about 12,000rpm in lower gears, lifting the front wheel in second, third, and, yes, fourth gear down the pit straight as you gas it wide open out of the last turn. It's fearsomely fast, but fun ... until you come to ride it at the pace of the last 5% needed to win world titles. Then it becomes very, very serious and very, very hard.

Peak power is delivered at 12,500rpm, and you should change gear soon after to put yourself right back in the midrange zone and ride the V4 engine's meaty torque curve, as you hit the higher gear. But what's this? A powershifter on an NSR500? First time I've ever used one on a 500 Honda.


While i totally agree that a even firing order of every 90 degrees will allow for a smoother engine with higher power potential and lighter parts.
To make the most of this advantage would entail redesigning the engine from scratch to make the most of this advantage.

Conversly the TZ750 which has a wide crankshaft due to its layout as a inline 4 dictating cylinder spacings and a wide crankshaft joined in the middle
It fires the cylinders in pairs inner together then outer together, my understanding is this was not down out of expediancy of using 180 cranks (ie similar as the twins or easier ignition) but necsessity of reducing the rocking couple.

Retired Yamaha engineer Takashi Matsui recalls the start of the development project: “We were intending to eventually participate in the GP500 class so we started work on a 500cc model, but at the same time we had our eyes on Daytona. So we started developing a 700cc models simultaneously, calling the 700cc the “YZ648″ and the 500cc the “YZ648A.” By October of 1971 we had completed three prototypes to the point where they were running fairly well. Then we spent all of 1972 developing the finer details of the machines, which were now being referred to by their development code names “OW19″ (700cc) and “OW20″ (500cc).”

A number of innovative features were developed during that year. “In order to get a much slimmer engine design, we grouped the four cylinders into units of two each and then introduced an “idle shaft” between the right and left crank shafts as the drive force shaft. The enabled an engine width about the same as a V-4. And to make the overall design even more compact, we fitted the ignition system in the space on the non-drive end of the idle shaft axis,” adds Mr. Matsui.
“From our experience developing the RD05 (the 1964 250cc GP machine) we learned that the ignition order has a big effect on the idle gear, and so we decided to use a well-balanced firing order in which the two inside cylinders and the two outside cylinders fired at the same time.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=314080&d=1438073578

Yamaha it seems reconised this with the R1 flat plane by giving it a balance shaft especially designed to assuage the rocking couple vibration. (well thats what they say other than assuage thats why little improvement)

That said Honda went back to the 180 layout later again same as a TZ750 People refer to this as a screamer I call it long bang but electronic engine management had got vastly better, fuels had changed to LL (making them the power curve less abrupt)and tyres had vastly improved.

For '97 Doohan decided he wanted to run a 180-degree motor. HRC didn't like the idea but he was mighty fast during first tests
knew he could regain an advantage with the engine, for engine management technology made it more rideable than the old 180-degree V4s and tire technology had caught up too. Plus the screamer sounded so much better.
"The 180 got back a direct relationship between the throttle and the rear wheel," he says. "When the tire spun I could roll off without losing drive." 98 brought into effect unleaded and made this engine managable again
But by all reports this bike was not as forgiving to ride for most others not used to it.
I can't see how a TZ750 on its skinny rims and old style tyres could be faster arround a track with a less than demigod rider in place
I am aware disagreeing with you on technical maters is fraught, as you are a fair bit smarter than I am, so what am i missing?

re the tyre rest theory i think the originator of that theory was actually Kiwi ex KR man Mike Sinclair

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/NSR500.htm
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2010/02/13/honda_nsr500_motogp_racing_history/
http://www.motorcycletrader.co.nz/reviews/0603/honda-nsr500-nz-2002/
http://www.mcnews.com.au/thirty-years-of-the-yzr-500-gp-racer-part-1/
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4837&page=7
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4837&page=6

[J.A.W.]

Hello Frits I read your pitlane post with great interest i too am struggling to see the possible improvement. in the case of the TZ750



While i totally agree that a even firing order of every 90 degrees will allow for a smoother engine with higher power potential and lighter parts.
To make the most of this advantage would entail redesigning the engine from scratch to make the most of this advantage.

Conversly the TZ750 which has a wide crankshaft due to its layout as a inline 4 dictating cylinder spacings and a wide crankshaft joined in the middle
It fires the cylinders in pairs inner together then outer together, my understanding is this was not down out of expediancy of using 180 cranks (ie similar as the twins or easier ignition) but necsessisty of reducing the rocking couple.
Yamaha it seems reconised this with the R1 flat plane by giving it a balance shaft especially designed to assuage the rocking couple vibration.




Husa, you are failing to grasp that the rocking couple is reduced by the 90` config'.. ( see the Manolis link) & the TZ would live longer with less needless internal stress..

[J.A.W.]

TZ 750 returned to the track feature.. www.cycleworld.com/2015/07/07/ienatsch-tuesday-yamaha-tz750-racebikes-on-the-bench-on-the-race-track/

[J.A.W.]

Yamaha big G.P. 2T race history feature.. www.big-diesel.blogspot.com.au/2009/04/tz750-yzr500-track-monsters-from-yamaha.html

[J.A.W.]

Paul Gast is still putting big HP H2s together too.. www.fastbygast.com/H-2%20parts.htm

[malcy25]

Too funny, & inaccurate as usual..

So here are some facts, to straighten out your curly ones..


1, I used it before you.. re-check post #3528 in the 9/11 thread which refers to this very topic.. ( & dont claim you aint already bloody seen it)..

2, Cap fits, wear it..

3, You dismissed the Doohan 'screamer' re-uptake, & ( slyly, or ignorantly) failed to include the material fact - of the configuration being retained from then on..

4, I was the person who, ah, yeah.. actually started the topic for discussion.. see post #435, this thread..
( & have you canvassed your good buddy Wobbly's consideration of the topic - yet?)

Oh the shame of it. See Husa's post from last night....

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor) NSR500 90-91 and then 1997- onwards
000----090----180----270----360
1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Hmmm, seems like they were on to a good thing, :laugh:


care to comment?

[ken seeber]

Dunno what has happened here, but a little while ago it all seemed so friendly. Bit of romanticising, some interesting things, the products of lots of individual and or company efforts and hard work, zany inventions, etc. When you look at each old bike or engine or whatever, successful or a total failure, it just reminds one of the passion and commitment that went into it. Going home every day, lying in bed, thinking about it and what you’d do the next day, waking up, enthused and going to work to do it. Getting it to work, a dud or a screaming success. Doesn’t matter really, you have put in the effort. One that we all seem to enjoy and look back at. Fuck, I just love passion and commitment
So, fellers, can you please respect this, not try to outdo the other as to who’s correct or more correct. You are clever and smart guys, clearly capable of drawing out the info, presenting lots of facts, some right, some wrong, some arguable, but we, or at least me, the audience, the accuracy it not the key just the abundance of interesting info and the learning of things that we missed all those years ago.
Cheers

[husaberg]

Dunno what has happened here, but a little while ago it all seemed so friendly. Bit of romanticising, some interesting things, the products of lots of individual and or company efforts and hard work, zany inventions, etc. When you look at each old bike or engine or whatever, successful or a total failure, it just reminds one of the passion and commitment that went into it. Going home every day, lying in bed, thinking about it and what you’d do the next day, waking up, enthused and going to work to do it. Getting it to work, a dud or a screaming success. Doesn’t matter really, you have put in the effort. One that we all seem to enjoy and look back at. Fuck, I just love passion and commitment
So, fellers, can you please respect this, not try to outdo the other as to who’s correct or more correct. You are clever and smart guys, clearly capable of drawing out the info, presenting lots of facts, some right, some wrong, some arguable, but we, or at least me, the audience, the accuracy it not the key just the abundance of interesting info and the learning of things that we missed all those years ago.
Cheers

My thoughts exactly

[J.A.W.]

Oh the shame of it. See Husa's post from last night....

Screamer - V4 2-Stroke (180 degree motor) NSR500 90-91 and then 1997- onwards
000----090----180----270----360
1&3------------2&4------------1&3

Hmmm, seems like they were on to a good thing, :laugh:


care to comment?


Sure.. is a shame, if that's the best you can do.. now, try & cite a source - which shows the effect of the V-angle..

[WilDun]

Dunno what has happened here, but a little while ago it all seemed so friendly. Bit of romanticising, some interesting things, the products of lots of individual and or company efforts and hard work, zany inventions, etc.
So, fellers, can you please respect this, not try to outdo the other as to who’s correct or more correct.
Cheers

Well said Ken, the thread was a happy, easy going one till very recently, where even those with no detailed knowledge (like myself) could join in, learn and discuss things, not so now!

[Frits Overmars]

Bravo Ken.

[J.A.W.]

Well said Ken, the thread was a happy, easy going one till very recently, where even those with no detailed knowledge (like myself) could join in, learn and discuss things, not so now!

Why not? Just do it.

& to be fair W-D, you have added comments of an off-technical subject type, yourself..

If we are to be frankly open & honest here, the somewhat hostile tone which originated from a certain contributor - can be clearly seen - in verbatim script.

For myself, I'd prefer to keep discussions on a reasoned, cooly technical basis.. rather than some over-personalised, prickly ego-thrashing..

Shall we now - put the posturing in the past, & resume a decent discourse?

I am up for it..

[Voltaire]

My thoughts exactly

The Ignore Feature works really well Malcy :yes:

[WilDun]

It's the link on the quote of the post you just answered, - moderator has deleted it, (no harm done I guess, just seems to be a general tightening up on the rules since the 'upheaval' started) - it does make your post seem a little irrelavent though! :rolleyes:

[Gremlin]

It's the link on the quote of the post you just answered, - moderator has deleted it, (no harm done I guess, just seems to be a general tightening up on the rules since the 'upheaval' started) - it does make your post seem a little irrelavent though! :rolleyes:
I've left this one here to comment.

When you start talking about J.A.W. it's all off topic stuff, so to keep your thread clean I've moved all those posts to PD.

[malcy25]

Sure.. is a shame, if that's the best you can do.. now, try & cite a source - which shows the effect of the V-angle..

I asked that too, and the effective firing order is just that, two up, two down. Unlike a TZ750 which is 1/4 2/3 it is 1/3 and 2/4 pairing. BUT it is what it is, 180 degree.

Source: I think the photos earlier by Husa should be sufficient. Crank pins are arranged relative to the V angle, supporting this is also the period magazine references.

[malcy25]

The Ignore Feature works really well Malcy :yes:

Volty, sorry, did you say something!! :killingme (just kidding!). I have a great ignore function called work and the too many hours I'm doing at present. At least I got to use my odd ball engined car with it's 15 degree V arrangement and single cylinder head.

[Voltaire]

Volty, sorry, did you say something!! :killingme (just kidding!). I have a great ignore function called work and the too many hours I'm doing at present. At least I got to use my odd ball engined car with it's 15 degree V arrangement and single cylinder head.

Lancia..? nearest I get to an oddball engine is driving to work with a flat 4 DOHC with a blower on it :yes:,

[Mental Trousers]

Volty, sorry, did you say something!! :killingme (just kidding!). I have a great ignore function called work and the too many hours I'm doing at present. At least I got to use my odd ball engined car with it's 15 degree V arrangement and single cylinder head.

Lancia..? nearest I get to an oddball engine is driving to work with a flat 4 DOHC with a blower on it :yes:,

A modern-ish Audi 3.2 litre V6 I'm guessing.

[J.A.W.]

Thanks Husa for adding those ex post facto ( best if you note the addit/edit timing though) NSR 500 crankshaft pix on the previous page.
Frits has given his views on the potential benefits of 90`firing for 4cyl 2Ts, but I am sure we'd all value Wobbly's appraisal too..

[J.A.W.]

Lancia..? nearest I get to an oddball engine is driving to work with a flat 4 DOHC with a blower on it :yes:,

You drive a Subaru - cage- to work? Tsk tsk..

Anyhow, if interested in engine firing orders, see here.. www.enginehistory.org/fo/FO.shtml

[Kickaha]

A modern-ish Audi 3.2 litre V6 I'm guessing.

I would have gone VW myself, probably all the same shit with a diferent badge anyway

[Mental Trousers]

I would have gone VW myself, probably all the same shit with a diferent badge anyway

Exactly the same shit with different badges. All VW's, Audis, Skodas and SEATs share engines while all VWs, Audis, Skodas, SEATs, Bugattis, Lambourghinis, Bentleys and Porsches share transmissions.

[malcy25]

I would have gone VW myself, probably all the same shit with a diferent badge anyway

Aye! And yep all variations of the same flavour!

[J.A.W.]

Enough with the junk posts..

Check this machine out.. Napier Sabre - scroll down to the final Mk VII, rated at 3,500hp @ 3,850rpm for take off.. ( on +20lbs boost/321lbs BMEP)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Aircraft_Engines_of_the_World_Napier_Sabre.pdf

[WilDun]

This is an attempt by a optimistic modeller a few years ago at making a smooth running model engine. It would appear that the crankcases have been glued together with JB Weld or similar and the gears up front are running dry or maybe with a little grease!! - at around 12000 revs!!?
Then the inlet port timing (on the hollow crankshaft) would have to be changed on one of the engines as well because of the backward rotation.
It was a good thought though and probably by someone who wasn't an engineer but game to give it a try anyway! - it would be interesting to know just how well it did work, but we'll probably never know.

- what's the betting it didn't work?

315972315973

[ken seeber]

Willy,
I agree the connection doesn't look strong at all. He could have easily added more bracing to beef it up. As to lubrication of the gears, I guess a small bleed from the fuel tank, given that the fuel is very high in oil content, might suffice. Or even a separate oil tank. Would be messy though.
This reminded me of a dragster in the US, many, many, many years ago where a guy made a W16 by joining two V8s and using the exposed ring gears to couple the cranks.

[husaberg]

Willy,
I agree the connection doesn't look strong at all. He could have easily added more bracing to beef it up. As to lubrication of the gears, I guess a small bleed from the fuel tank, given that the fuel is very high in oil content, might suffice. Or even a separate oil tank. Would be messy though.
This reminded me of a dragster in the US, many, many, many years ago where a guy made a W16 by joining two V8s and using the exposed ring gears to couple the cranks.

A bit of felt soaked in oil?

[WilDun]

Not 100% sure that exposed gearing is a good idea, but I would at like to see the shaft tunnels connected (up close to the gears) with a piece of ally plate (at least) to keep the clearance right. JB Weld is good I'm told, but not necessarily that good!
The crankshaft inlet timing I think might well be a real problem, - there wouldn't be much of a problem with vibration, unless the JB Weld let loose!
Apart from all that, it was probably done by an inventive teenage kid in America, (a Flettner in the making) and a very brave effort I think. :niceone:

[J.A.W.]

Riedel had some interesting designs, even if some mills do look a bit lawn mower-ish..

www.odd-bike.com/2014/05/imme-r100-purity--of-design.html

[ken seeber]

I'm for it, let's give it another go. I think everyone who was into this thread understands where it went wrong and therefore how to keep it right.

Just for something different and not Ryger, I have posted some pics of a DI system that was mfg by Piaggio, under a system patented by a Dr Marco Nuti, also with Piaggio. The application was for a 50 ccc scooter. I think the system was called FAST, but could be wrong.

It was a hybrid 2 fluid system in that the air and fuel was delivered to the cylinder via a small inverted compressor directly mounted on the head. This was cyclically fed with a metered dose of fuel via a low pressure electronic EFI style injector. The unthrottled compressor was clearly mechanically coupled direct to the crank via a toothed belt. Unlike the Orbital system, which uses a solenoid injector to control the DI injector timing and duration, the timing and duration were fixed. I don't believe it was a great commercial success though.

I thought (and still do) that the basic system would be excellent for competition applications and, being an electronic dummy, also thought that a carburetted version would be the go. Drag out the old gear and take some pics. What I did was to also mount a small model aircraft engine to the head of an ARC kart engine (made in both air and water cooled versions) that was an Australian made kart engine, based very closely on the Yamaha KT100S engine and designed to compete with it. The compressor transfer passages were blocked off and the inlet was achieved by using the exhaust port. The valving was of a simple disc type, although in hindsight a good HC trap. No speed limitation issues, the fog coming out at up to 10k was impressive. The thought was that if it was throttled, ie the mixture was controlled with a carb, some form of favourable load increasing advancing timing could be achieved. Advantages would have been no high fuel pressures required, no fuel mixing (although it would have required a metered oil system (Autolube style) for the crankcase inlet) and fundamentally lower fuel consumption and unburnt HC emissions. Bit rough, this was over 15 years ago. In answer to the question did it work, yes it did. Only on an inertia dyno though, started, idled, free revved a bit, but never on a kart. Lost interest as the Australian karting controlling body, showing its usual level of initiative as being equivalent to that of a pregnant cockroach, just figured too hard as the rules disallowed any form of fuel injection.

316828316829316830316831316832

[Lightbulb]

There was a guy who made a scale model with a 7 cylinder radial engine. The engine was made from 7 cox engine, 0.049 I think, with a slot car gear pinion running to a brass looking ring gear. The brass ring gear had the teeth on the inside.It seemed to run ok, but only ran for like 1 min or so. As it had 7 little fuel tanks etc. I asked him how he tuned it, he said he ran each engine on the bench with the same prop and fuel, and tuned each to be running 2 clicks richer than peak power. He put a spot of glue onto each needles so they could not loose their tune. It really sounded quite noisy and rattly.
Neil

[WilDun]

a system patented by a Dr Marco Nuti, also with Piaggio.

It was a hybrid 2 fluid system in that the air and fuel was delivered to the cylinder via a small inverted compressor directly mounted on the head. This was cyclically fed with a metered dose of fuel via a low pressure electronic EFI style injector.

What I did was to also mount a small model aircraft engine to the head of an ARC kart engine
No speed limitation issues, the fog coming out at up to 10k was impressive.
In answer to the question did it work, yes it did. just figured too hard as the rules disallowed any form of fuel injection.

Thanks Ken,
That was a good idea, I tried to explain that one a while back but couldn't find much on the net at all and was beginning to think I might have been dreaming!

I also thought about using a model aircraft engine, but in a different way, ie with the simple model aircraft ignition lighting up a rich mixture and delivering it into the cylinder already on fire and meeting fresh air from the normal transfers which was already compressed and raring to go! Probably wouldn't have worked unless the small engine was using alcohol fuel and glowplug.
Only difference here is that I only dreamed about doing that whereas you gave it a go!

Flettner also said that he had considered a small Wankel engine instead (but maybe as a valve only).

Sometimes competition breeds new designs, but often competition rules also stymie development in the wider scene. eg in Moto GP, insisting on four strokes only and even worse in Moto 2, insisting on Honda four strokes only!

Ok Ken thanks for getting this thing on the road again.

[WilDun]

There was a guy who made a scale model with a 7 cylinder radial engine. The engine was made from 7 cox engine, 0.049 I think, with a slot car gear pinion running to a brass looking ring gear.
Neil

I guess it really wasn't really AN engine, just a COLONY of engines, - I have three of those little Cox engines, noisy little buggers they are and don't have near as good torque as some of the little 'diesels' of comparable size - would be even more difficult with diesels, ie also having to set the compression ratio on each cylinder!!
Never mind, its good to see people attempting things (like the contra rotating engines a few posts ago).

[wobbly]

Sorry guys I had no idea this thread existed, but I do have a couple of things to add re 90* firing configurations.
I first got onto the parallel twin at 90 crankpin phasing when reading about experiments done on Pommie shitboxes that traditionally
have 0-360 cranks.
A couple of analysis were done by those with some knowledge on the subject and it started out that 72* phasing was suggested as being the best
overall compromise of primary and rocking couple generation.
A later analysis suggested the it was better at 90* with one piston stopped at TDC the other at max velocity around 1/2 stroke.
In any case the engines built for speedway sidecars were way smoother then the original 0/360 so the whole thing seemed a win win.
I did an analysis of the forces in the 180* Yamaha RZ 350 and concluded that the reduction in rocking couple was considerable and thus it was worth a shot
to rephase a crank and try it.

Using an Ignitech the ignition issue is non existent, simply using 2 lobes at 90* with a, close by , extra lobe to denote cylinder 1 for the ECU - and deleting waste spark.

Short story is that despite the big reduction in rocking couple, the added ccomplication of decreasing the 100% primary cancellation of the 180 configuration produced hideous
tingling vibes, due to a force vector I hadnt considered - that of the resultant vector force created when both pistons are at 1/2 stroke.
Thus no matter what primary balance factor was tried from 35 to 75 % it simply moved this hideous vibe maxima rpm around.

And this result was obviously thought about at KTM when designing the parallel twin 250 engine into its successful GP configuration, they added a balance shaft with a lobe
that nullified this 45* resultant vector, as well as increasing the system inertia to tame the mid ranges excessively rapid BHP rise delta that shredded tires and high-sided riders.

Going to the even fire TZ750, we have 3 scenarios.
First two as is used in normal 4T cranks.They have 1,2,4,3 or 1,3 ,4,2 firing (note this is firing order, not crank pin orientation, as a 4T always has pairs rising and falling together ).
But in both cases cylinder 1 and 4 will be at 180* - giving a huge rocking couple across the full width of the engine.
And the two inner cylinders will be at 90/270 or 270/90, both of which generate a smaller rocking couple at 90* to that of the outer pair.
Then we have the special case of 1,2,3,4 and when used in a 2T this will result in a pair of the same resultant vector force mentioned above, they will be at 180* and centered on
the cyinder pairs on each side of the engine.
This is alot further apart than what we see in a 180* twin, so I would expect that rocking couple to be alot worse than the normal 180* case.
Thus again a balance shaft is needed to control the couple from violently shaking the frame and the riders components.

But the rocking couple in a 180 twin can also be efficiently nullified by frequency specific rubber absorption mounting - as a young Furisawa did in the RZ350 to great effect.
So my take on using this firing order in a TZ750 is that it would result in a ball buzzing monster, unless a balance shaft was fitted ( possibly adapt the jackshaft ) or the whole frame was rebuilt to use
rubber mounts and torque control arms to resist chain pull forces.
Not worth the drama imho.

[husaberg]

Sorry guys I had no idea this thread existed, but I do have a couple of things to add re 90* firing configurations.
I first got onto the parallel twin at 90 crankpin phasing when reading about experiments done on Pommie shitboxes that traditionally
have 0-360 cranks.
A couple of analysis were done by those with some knowledge on the subject and it started out that 72* phasing was suggested as being the best
overall compromise of primary and rocking couple generation.
A later analysis suggested the it was better at 90* with one piston stopped at TDC the other at max velocity around 1/2 stroke.
In any case the engines built for speedway sidecars were way smoother then the original 0/360 so the whole thing seemed a win win.
I did an analysis of the forces in the 180* Yamaha RZ 350 and concluded that the reduction in rocking couple was considerable and thus it was worth a shot
to rephase a crank and try it.

Using an Ignitech the ignition issue is non existent, simply using 2 lobes at 90* with a, close by , extra lobe to denote cylinder 1 for the ECU - and deleting waste spark.

Short story is that despite the big reduction in rocking couple, the added ccomplication of decreasing the 100% primary cancellation of the 180 configuration produced hideous
tingling vibes, due to a force vector I hadnt considered - that of the resultant vector force created when both pistons are at 1/2 stroke.
Thus no matter what primary balance factor was tried from 35 to 75 % it simply moved this hideous vibe maxima rpm around.

And this result was obviously thought about at KTM when designing the parallel twin 250 engine into its successful GP configuration, they added a balance shaft with a lobe
that nullified this 45* resultant vector, as well as increasing the system inertia to tame the mid ranges excessively rapid BHP rise delta that shredded tires and high-sided riders.

Going to the even fire TZ750, we have 3 scenarios.
First two as is used in normal 4T cranks.They have 1,2,4,3 or 1,3 ,4,2 firing (note this is firing order, not crank pin orientation, as a 4T always has pairs rising and falling together ).
But in both cases cylinder 1 and 4 will be at 180* - giving a huge rocking couple across the full width of the engine.
And the two inner cylinders will be at 90/270 or 270/90, both of which generate a smaller rocking couple at 90* to that of the outer pair.
Then we have the special case of 1,2,3,4 and when used in a 2T this will result in a pair of the same resultant vector force mentioned above, they will be at 180* and centered on
the cyinder pairs on each side of the engine.
This is alot further apart than what we see in a 180* twin, so I would expect that rocking couple to be alot worse than that case.
Thus again a balance shaft is needed to control the couple from violently shaking the frame and the riders components.

But the rocking couple in a 180 twin can also be efficiently nullified by frequency specific rubber absorption mounting - as a young Furisawa did in the RZ350 to great effect.
So my take on using this firing order in a TZ750 is that it would result in a ball buzzing monster, unless a balance shaft was fitted ( possibly adapt the jackshaft ) or the whole frame was rebuilt to use
rubber mounts and torque control arms to resist chain pull forces.
Not worth the drama imho.

Thank's Wob I must say I was rather surprised when I figured out the NSR500 screamer was actually a 180 degree two up two down configuration. I always assumed it was a 90 degree set up like almost all the early NSR500s Until I looked into it. the Big bang close firing interval had the Balance shaft (as it really needed it) but they left it on when they went back to the 180 crank as Doohan said it steered better.
\pretty sure at some stage they reversed the crank rotation but I can't remember when. Of course none of these problems exist in the TZ750.

[wobbly]

Yea, the TZ750 spins "backwards " due to the clutch jackshaft driven from the centre.

[husaberg]

Yea, the TZ750 spins "backwards " due to the clutch jackshaft driven from the centre.

Which in itself would be costing them a fair bit of HP but unavoidable without a major redesign in order to keep the motor slim , compromises. Life is full of them.

[lohring]

My favorite new take on the Junkers style double piston two stroke is by Eco Motors (http://www.ecomotors.com/) (scroll down). Their current versions are modular which allows an efficient generator package over a wide power range. However, I think the electric turbo is the significant contribution. Coupled with electronic engine management it should solve starting, turbo lag, and low power operating problems with any two stroke design. An earlier small version used piston pumps, but development was discontinued.

317005

Lohring Miller

[wobbly]

Last point to add re the 90* even fire scenario, is that if the vibration issue could be addressed,then we have the grip and rider feel advantages
with this setup that is seen in a 90* V4 and the crossplane M1 that fire 4 times every 2 revolutions.
As two pistons are at TDC or BDC the other two are at 1/2 stroke, thus the inertia torque from the crank is virtually cancelled out.
As this inertia torque is of greater magnitude than the combustion forces below 4000 and above 14,000 in a big 4T, having this effect removed from
the forces acting on the rear tyre will have the same advantages in a 4 cyl inline 2T firing 4 times every revolution as well.

[WilDun]

However, I think the electric turbo is the significant contribution. Coupled with electronic engine management it should solve starting, turbo lag, and low power operating problems with any two stroke design
Lohring Miller

I certainly agree with the above of course, I know piston engines are very easy for us to play around and have fun with, but there is the problem of balance, thrust forces on pistons, and of course the inefficiency of a piston having to stop and accelerate again twice in each revolution! and

Those problems could be eliminated by just using a simple turbine engine and generator.

However a lot of problems were eliminated 100 years ago in the Le Rhone rotary radial ( crankshaft attached to the airframe with the cylinders rotating), as used in WW1 fighter aircraft.
The pistons only reciprocated relative to the cylinder, but relative to the wider world, they simply rotated!

But it did have it's own unique problems, like the huge rotating mass of the cylinders and of course the problems harnessing the exhaust fumes, they also had a tendency to precession and would try to bank when when the pilots suddenly tried to ascend or descend, which took a bit of getting used to - but, if you didn't mind this and being sprayed with burnt Castor Oil, it was ok in aircraft, but totally unsuitable for automotive use.

Update:-
http://www.animatedengines.com/gnome.html

If you study the movement of the cylinders, they rotate, then study the pistons/rods, they also rotate, but have a different centre of rotation, giving "relative reciprocation" (as I call it) - follow one piston pin for a revolution and you will see that it doesn't reciprocate, it only moves in a circle - the rods also of course oscillate.

[husaberg]

. However, I think the electric turbo is the significant contribution. Coupled with electronic engine management it should solve starting, turbo lag, and low power operating problems with any two stroke design. An earlier small version used piston pumps, but development was discontinued.



Lohring Miller
I first seen this about 20 years ago not your normal snake oil Electric blower.

DynaCharger
317102
"Turbodyne Technologies Inc. is a leading engineering company in the design and development of charging technology to enhance the performance of internal combustion engines."
The Turbodyne Dynacharger is an electric assist device that can be adapted to specific turbochargers. The Dynacharger system comprises an electronically controlled ultra high-speed brushless electric motor that's mounted between the turbine and the compressor of a conventional turbocharger, together with an electronic power and speed control system.
Electrically, the operation of the Dynacharger alternates between Motor Mode and Generator Mode. In Motor Mode, the Dynacharger provides the desired boost pressure for low speed engine acceleration. In Generator Mode, the Dynacharger utilizes the otherwise wasted surplus exhaust gas energy by using the turbine to drive the electric rotor. At full engine power, the generator can be used to slow the turbine, and in many cases alleviates the need for a wastegate.
The most obvious benefits are improved transient response, boost pressure available at low rpm and low load and greater turbo sizing flexibility - you can rely on the Dynacharger for low-end boost and you can opt for a huge compressor for strong top-end performance.

this one shows but amps and motor size are needed for full time electric blowers.

ESC Electric Supercharger
317100317100317101
From the BoostHeads.com website; "Thomas Knight is proud to unleash the revolutionary ESC-400 Electric Supercharger. Our patent-pending ESC- series electric supercharger technology shocks the competition with up to 20 psi of instant boost. Yes, we said 20 psi - in 3/10 of a second"...
Quite unlike anything else on the market, the ESC-400 uses an Eaton twin-rotor core that's driven by three custom wound electric motors. All three motors - totalling 18 horsepower - are mounted on a CNC 60-16 T6 aluminium billet bracket. Interestingly, the ESC-400 has its own independent power source - four high-capacity 12V batteries, which are designed for very fast recharge.

Suitable for use on engines up to 2.5 litres, the ESC-400 is capable of 20 psi of boost but - on a stock motor - it is recommended that you don't exceed 5 - 7 psi. Depending on the boost pressure you require, the unit can produce maximum boost for up to 15 seconds. The Eaton roots-type compressor comes rated up to 425hp and delivers up to 405 cfm of airflow at 5.5 psi boost. Note that, like the e-RAM, the ESC-400 supercharger operates only at wide-open throttle.
The universal ESC-400 kit - which retails for US$1995 - includes a boost gauge, solenoids, relays, switches, battery terminals, copper busbars, ammeter and a 2½-inch check valve. Installation should take a competent workshop about 12 hours. Note that the ESC-400 draws 600 - 1200 amps during operation, so specialist electrical system experience is desirable.
And what about the engine management system, you ask? Well, due to the huge mass of air this unit can supply to the engine, it seems likely you will need to upgrade the car's standard engine management system. There's no escaping the fact that huge increases in mass airflow call for management mods - this is the case when bolting on any supercharger or turbocharger kit.
In its most basic set-up, the ESC-400 battery system can be trickle charged overnight to give you 15 seconds of boosted performance the following day. Once spent, full battery charge will then be restored after about an hour of driving. But, should you decide to fit a 200-amp alternator, you can restore battery charge in just a few minutes of driving. Note that the car's alternator is bypassed when the ESC-400 is in operation - this eliminates parasitic losses.
The ESC-400 is a great bolt-on for people wanting a big power hit only on the odd occasion. As claimed, "while you're waiting in the staging lanes or cruising along the strip, you can relax and hurl insults at the nitrous guys while your system preps for another 15-second burst of sheer power. That's more than enough time to run the quarter mile or remind that high school kid with the neon muffler bearings who his daddy is..."
Interestingly, the ESC-400 is apparently very loud in operation - it's described "like a low pitched siren, or a vacuum cleaner on steroids." Durability is a strong point - information on BoostHeads.com suggest the unit will comfortably outlast your vehicle.
BoostHeads encourage you to look at their dyno graphs, consider their achieved performance times and - if you're still sceptical - you can go for a ride in a car equipped with the ESC-400. So long as you're in the vicinity of Miami, Florida... "We are absolutely confident that, like everyone who has taken us up on the challenge, you will walk away a believer."
Check out all the details of the ESC-400 at www.boosthead.com

[tjbw]

I saw this 2 wheel chain drive bike at the Sammy Miller museum in England:

Also found various other types of 2 wheel drives on www.

Here's a Drysdale Dryvtech bike with hydraulic drive to both wheels, oddball because it includes a 9 piston hydraulic pump with an operating pressure of 4,500psi:

http://www.gizmag.com/drysdale-dryvtech-2x2x2/35103/

Yamaha have a hydraulic "2-trac" system:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/2351/

Christini make another type of 2 wheel drive, using telescopic drive shafts:

http://blog.christini.com/

Two Wheel Drive Electric Bicycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKk3i4CmLlg

[husaberg]

I saw this 2 wheel chain drive bike at the Sammy Miller museum in England:

Also found various other types of 2 wheel drives on www.

Here's a Drysdale Dryvtech bike with hydraulic drive to both wheels, oddball because it includes a 9 piston hydraulic pump with an operating pressure of 4,500psi:

http://www.gizmag.com/drysdale-dryvtech-2x2x2/35103/

Yamaha have a hydraulic "2-trac" system:

http://www.gizmag.com/go/2351/

Christini make another type of 2 wheel drive, using telescopic drive shafts:

http://blog.christini.com/

Two Wheel Drive Electric Bicycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKk3i4CmLlg

Not forgetting the Rokon
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[tjbw]

Another bike at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

1969 Moto Villa 250cc square four two stroke. Designed by Walter and Francesco Villa. Unfortunately this was produced shortly before FIM changed the rules restricting the number of cylinders to two.

[tjbw]

This is a 1926 Grindlay-Peerless with Bar & Stroud 500cc sleeve valve engine, on display at Sammy Miller museum in England.

[WilDun]

Another bike at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

1969 Moto Villa 250cc square four two stroke. Designed by Walter and Francesco Villa. Unfortunately this was produced shortly before FIM changed the rules restricting the number of cylinders to two.

I remember that one, was quite interested in it - I (along with another guy) managed to build a 4 cylinder Ariel Arrow 500 by combining the motors in that fashion, - it was quite fast actually but only a partial success though ( cranks were interconnected by a chain) and then there was the 'pain in the ass' Arrow ignition to contend with! :rolleyes:

[tjbw]

I remember that one, was quite interested in it - I (along with another guy) managed to build a 4 cylinder Ariel Arrow 500 by combining the motors in that fashion, - it was quite fast actually but only a partial success though ( cranks were interconnected by a chain) and then there was the 'pain in the ass' Arrow ignition to contend with! :rolleyes:

Wow, a square four Ariel Arrow, now that's something I'd like to see. What frame did you use for it?

What do you think of this in-line Arrow 4 cylinder?

https://flic.kr/p/2jeAMe

I gather other people have created 3 and 6 cylinder conversions, mostly in-line.

Bill Boddice tried a 4 cylinder Arrow engined sidecar, without success.

There's also a Lotus 23 Rotorvic 1.5L car, with six Arrow engines!

[tjbw]

http://catalog-moto.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/3/we-ride-service-hondas-cr250af-two-stroke_1.jpg

Counting on fingers, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5!

[WilDun]

Wow, a square four Ariel Arrow, now that's something I'd like to see. What frame did you use for it?


Yes it was a poor man's effort back around 1970, inspired by Ernst Degner's Suzuki Square Four, with chain drive between the engines - my friend and I worked together on the project, he was the best for the fine tuning and getting it all built and working properly, he also did the pipes.
I actually drew up a loose copy of a Manx Norton frame and built it at work in my spare time (sometimes in work time as well, when the boss wasn't around) - this was in a tubular steel furniture factory where they had all the tube cutting, benders, MIG and bronze welding gear (all very handy - that's really why I got a job there - why else would you want to work there?)
My mate fitted it with Triumph wheels and forks and it was a runner! - all good fun but lots of problems with standard ignition points, chain drive between engines (had to fit outrigger bearings on the cranks) and we made the mistake of using the standard box which had an "innovative" sintered iron bearing which always broke up - In a word "crappy".

Got hauled up by a traffic cop on a bike down a "quiet" street on it's first test, he was extremely interested and apologized for giving me a ticket saying that he had to act on the complaints of residents of the street! - miserable old gits I thought! :rolleyes: Now I'd do exactly the same thing!!

Sorry, we didn't have a camera so I don't have any photos.

Think I saw that inline four Arrow before, it is well done but would probably be much better with bigger wheels - Although heavy, the Arrow monocoque steel frame and trailing link forks were both excellent items for handling, but that was all anulled by the 16" wheels which made it impossible to lean over without scraping (even as standard with the twin 250 engine) - with that four cylinder one it would be a nightmare, probably as restricted on cornering as an old Harley!

[WilDun]

That Kawasaki would have been quite a handful too I would imagine - had a ride on a 500 H1A - that thing took some discipline to control! think that that wide five would have been a bloody nightmare!

I remember Bill Boddice's Arrow effort, - my conclusion eventually was that (despite Hermann Meier's quite succesful TT racer) the Arrow was designed specifically for commuting only and its cast iron barrels, extremely small transfer ports (x2 not multiple as today), chain primary drive, four speed box, single carb, were just not really suited for racing - however, the "box" frame and trailing link forks had a lot of merit and could have been developed - but it was not to be. The Suzuki T20 and Ariel's management (mismanagement) were its nemesis and between them delivered the final blow.

[WilDun]

I saw this 2 wheel chain drive bike at the Sammy Miller museum in England:

These designs are very ingenious (and expensive) but ........ is there ever a time when two wheel drive is really necessary (or useable) on a motorcycle?
Maybe when slowly riding through mud or loose sand I guess, but the front wheel is so light that in most situations this system would not be of much use surely? - certainly not enough to justify the cost!

[ken seeber]

That Kawasaki would have been quite a handful too I would imagine - had a ride on a 500 H1A - that thing took some discipline to control! think that that wide five would have been a bloody nightmare!


Willy, you brought back memories. Here's me on one of the first H1s in Melbourne, racing it at Winton in around 1972. Poor handling reputation was surpassed by the drum brake. Later I made up a set of expansion chambers based on Gordon Jennings articles in Cycle World magazine. Dunno if it went much better, but it sounded great. No silencing, just 3 tailpipes. Later I chucked it down the road, so stuck the std exhausts back on and sold it.

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[WilDun]

Willy, you brought back memories.

Yes Ken,
Bet you were really enjoying the moment when that photo was taken, looks like it was near the max angle for lean! - It was a lethal machine (H1A) but bloody exciting at the time!

In those days narrow powerbands and 6 speeds were considered to be state of the art! - I remember I was trying to buy a little RM 80 for my kid and the guy who was selling it told me that it had a 'power band' as well - he wasn't exactly sure what that was, but he obviously considered it a plus! :rolleyes:

I never owned an H1 but had a ride on one - I was riding a Suzuki T20 on the road (and on the track as well - every man and his dog raced one of those) - it was almost as diabolical to ride (only smaller) ie narrow powerband and handled like a wet sausage and when you braked hard, the forks didn't work because they were so skinny they used to flex and cause all sorts of chatter! - the chatter wasn't so bad after the first lap when the front drum brake had lost a lot of it's effectivness!!
Everything became worse when I tweaked the engine - but if you weren't scared, and let it do it's thing, it was a lot of fun and still capable of blowing off the big Beezas, Nortons and Triumphs on our short street circuits - I loved it!

Now I've got to stop dreaming, get out of my chair, go out into the garage and try and make something - hard to do these days, but I'll be ok when I get out there! - I think :rolleyes:

[Frits Overmars]

Willy, you brought back memories. Here's me on one of the first H1s in Melbourne, racing it at Winton in around 1972. Poor handling reputation was surpassed by the drum brake. Later I made up a set of expansion chambers based on Gordon Jennings articles in Cycle World magazine.It brought back memories for me too. As the proud owner of a Kawa H2 I must of course start by saying that the H1 was for sissies, but I will admit that the H2 had a much stiffer frame. And after lightening the cylinders by way of a little grinding, replacing the standard carbs with a trio of 38 mm Mikunis and the standard pipes with some gizmos of my own I also felt the need to fit a second front disc brake and clip-on handlebars. It made the bike even front-heavier than it already was but from 3000 rpm onward I could control the extent of my wheelies with my right hand; no clutch required (to be honest, the wheelying had to be done from one petrol station to the next :drinkup:)

I had been preparing a couple of Suzuki T500 racers for some friends and on my H2 I used to watch them through the corners and show them the way on the straights. Ahh, those were the days.
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[WilDun]

It brought back memories for me too. As the proud owner of a Kawa H2 I must of course start by saying that the H1 was for sissies,


My most vivid memory of the H2 was of a guy going round the bottom loop at Pukekohe, highsiding it and gliding gracefully through the air at high altitude, (only thing that spoiled it was the great thump at the end!).

If the H1A was for sissies, then I'd better not talk too much about my Suzuki T20.
:msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

If the H1A was for sissies, then I'd better not talk too much about my Suzuki T20.The H1A's lack of handling and braking was more demanding than the H2's power, I'll grant you that :yes:.

[WilDun]

The H1A's lack of handling and braking was more demanding than the H2's power, I'll grant you that :yes:.

From memory, they tamed everything down in the later versions of the H1 but they just couldn't compete with the (RD 400?) Yamaha twins.

[WilDun]

I came across this new "breakthrough" in engine design. Of course it has it's merits but it sure 'aint no breakthrough' as far as the mechanism is involved!

http://www.fishertechnologies.net/index.php
http://www.fishertechnologies.net/howItWorks.php

The same basic idea was used on shaping machines from the year dot! It was used in shapers mainly as a simple way to save time on the non working return stroke.
Also it could be ajusted for stroke by undoing a nut and moving it in a slot on the crank wheel (moves the crankpin relative to the crankshaft) - Beats me why that system wasn't used on hacksaws as well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx5nOn0tf_k
This is a detailed description by Tubal Cain (good guy). definitely worth a look if you've got the time!

I have seen many "breakthroughs" in my time - I can remember the Suzuki T500 coming on the market in around 1970 in the US and being hailed as " The world's first dual cycle twin" - (dual cycle? - what the hell is that?) - Scott, whose two stroke twins were 'yowling' their way through the countryside more than 50 years previously would have turned in his grave to have heard that line! :rolleyes:

[WilDun]

I should have mentioned that I thought Flettner was using the same basic concept when toying with a beam type engine with a "straight line" piston idea (except that the pivot end of the beam was allowed to 'float' by way of a pivoted rod).

Am I right Flettner, or have I strayed from reality.... again? :scratch:

[Frits Overmars]

From memory, they tamed everything down in the later versions of the H1 but they just couldn't compete with the (RD 400?) Yamaha twins.Riding the Kawa H2 was hard labour, only rewarded by the fact that I could zap everything else on the road.
I also used to own a Yamaha RD350. Riding that was pure joy, even if the Kawa was 50 km/h faster in a straight line.

[F5 Dave]

My 350B wasn't a joy. Someone had mounted the size up tyres and it didn't turn with any urgency.

It also oiled the rhs plug with monotonous regularity. I changed the crank seal twice but I was told by the parts guy I could lever the old one out, file off the outer ring and push the new one in, as I was 17 and too dumb to split the cases. Or learn from my first mistake as it seems.

Probably a good thing, might have stopped me having a worse crash on it than I did after a mate helped me bleed the brakes.

Had the obligatory 250 stickers over the 350 ones.

[Niels Abildgaard]

Please help me.

I have had a BMW R25/3 and drove 45000 km ,a BMW R50S drove 2000 and bent it,a R27 and drove 70000,a BMW R96S but could not afford it and sold it very shortly after in 1975.

In 1995 I got a MZ251 with a turkish 300 ccm engine and drove it 80000 km on two sparkplugs and two chains plus tires ,petrol and oil.It stopped once unwanted in pouring rain.After a silcone spray on HT lead no more problems and I rode sumer and winter ,wet and dry.

It was by far the best bike I have met.
It is sold as I am 70 and is pulling a sidecar somewhere.On a like scale from 1 to 10 it scored higher than family.

Only thing is I feel engine would have been even better made as drawing.

My question is:
Please help making a formulae for exhaust valve diameters versus RPM( fourstroke) and what is basecirkel diameter of the OHC.
This based on present OHC engines
If such a formula can be made the 120 years of fourstroke plaque has not been totally in wain.

[tjbw]

Please help me.

...

My question is:
Please help making a formulae for exhaust valve diameters versus RPM( fourstroke)

...



Sorry I don't have a RPM formula, but I guess it would include the number, and size, of exhaust and inlet valves per cylinder, bore/stroke ratio, type of valve actuation, and more.

Anymore images of the uniflow sidevalve engine?

[Niels Abildgaard]

Hello tjbw.
I can make any picture of anything as it is only a computermodel,so what do You want?
I have made a V2 90 degree two stroke Ducatti beater.

http://i.imgur.com/kgeUWsJ.jpg

To be realistic I need a rough idea of what present ,real valve trains, fourstroke engineers have made to work.As You can see the crankshaft actuated valve works more or less like an overhead camshaft valve from a fourstroke.
What is the size of a F1 exhaust valve and how many rpm can it do before floating?
How big is an exhaust valve of a state of art 4 cylinder 600 ccm and what rpm can it do before floating?
I have some numbers for a VFR 750 anno 1988. 8 exhaust valves of 23 mm dia allowed 105 horses to pass.Each valve of 4 square centimeter took care of 13 horses, that is roughly 3 horses per square centimeter.This was at 10500 crankshaft rpm and redline has probably been at 12000.
This means a 23 mm valve took care 13 horse and could at least operate at 100 rps or 6000 rpm two strokewise.
The Aprillia 125 ccm people achived 17 bar as mean effective pressure due to very efficient exhaust system tuning.
My Mz ran 7.5 bar all day rain or sun.
7.5 bar at 100 rps means a cylinder of 130 ccm and 55 times 55 mm is nice to look at and give a mean piston speed of 11 meter per second.
A 13 horsepower machine for all eternity if the valve can be persuaded to obey crankshaft.

[Grumph]

One limiting factor in the valve train you propose is the weight of the parts and the accelerations you're asking it to perform.
You need to speak to a cam grinder. I have no idea if there are any local to you, but local to me here in NZ there are at least two who have analysis software. They can tell me if I'm trying to exceed known limits and what sort of spring pressure I'm going to need with that profile.
Base circle problems - and inevitably you'll have a base circle bigger than you'd really want - can be dealt with. Roller followers come to mind.
I have to say that the valve area as proposed looks to be a major limiting factor too...The layout is effectively a sidevalve. Due to the odd shape of the chamber and the need to maintain some sort of compression, the chamber wall will limit the effective area of the valve to around half the circumference.

[tjbw]

Hello tjbw.
I can make any picture of anything as it is only a computermodel,so what do You want?
I have made a V2 90 degree two stroke Ducatti beater.

http://i.imgur.com/kgeUWsJ.jpg

To be realistic I need a rough idea of what present ,real valve trains, fourstroke engineers have made to work.As You can see the crankshaft actuated valve works more or less like an overhead camshaft valve from a fourstroke.
What is the size of a F1 exhaust valve and how many rpm can it do before floating?
How big is an exhaust valve of a state of art 4 cylinder 600 ccm and what rpm can it do before floating?
I have some numbers for a VFR 750 anno 1988. 8 exhaust valves of 23 mm dia allowed 105 horses to pass.Each valve of 4 square centimeter took care of 13 horses, that is roughly 3 horses per square centimeter.This was at 10500 crankshaft rpm and redline has probably been at 12000.
This means a 23 mm valve took care 13 horse and could at least operate at 100 rps or 6000 rpm two strokewise.
The Aprillia 125 ccm people achived 17 bar as mean effective pressure due to very efficient exhaust system tuning.
My Mz ran 7.5 bar all day rain or sun.
7.5 bar at 100 rps means a cylinder of 130 ccm and 55 times 55 mm is nice to look at and give a mean piston speed of 11 meter per second.
A 13 horsepower machine for all eternity if the valve can be persuaded to obey crankshaft.

I would be interested to see a cross section of the combustion chamber, also inlet and transfer ports.

Your V twin has a nice simple exhaust valve. That configuration is called side valve, and the side valve engines are also called flat head engines.

Side valves were outperformed by overhead valves, which were then outperformed by overhead cam designs.

Some F1 engines can rev to more than 20,000 RPM, they use pneumatic valve springs and overhead cams, however current regulations limit maximum revs to 15,000 RPM.

For your engine I think you should go for the largest valve area you can get, and the maximum valve lift, with whatever compression ratio you want to run the engine at.

I've read elsewhere that poppet valves don't open fast enough to create the exhaust wave action that is utilised by high performance two-stroke engines.

If you want a high power Ducati beater I suggest you consider alternatives to the side valve. Honda have recently patented a uniflow two-stroke with overhead poppet exhaust valve, but I wouldn't expect that to be a Ducati beater either.

[ken seeber]

Niels, I must say that I just love the finning on these MZs. Beautiful raw simplicity. I had a Jawa 250 Californian for a while, that was similar, but no big fins though.

As a digression, have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/user/RaceEngineTechnology.

Not much in common with bikes, other than the skinny front wheels

[Niels Abildgaard]

Hello tjbw and Grumph

I have found a rough guide in specifications for a cbr 600 rr.
Exhaust valve must be around 25 mm,made of steel and engine rpm limit at 15000.That is 7500 rpm for a Twostroke.
The thread here is not racing but odball-engines,so I just dream on.
The limits in racing was always so and so many ccms but for common people engine mass ,compactness,noise,fuel consumption and price was more important.
Chain saw engines comes to mind.Does some here know internet sites addicted to tuning chain saws?

[husaberg]

Chamberlain 2 stroke
http://justacarguy.blogspot.co.nz/2015/10/the-chamberlain-8-2-stroke-4-cylinder-8.html
http://primotipo.com/2015/07/24/chamberlain-8-by-john-medley-and-mark-bisset/
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Mvq7pwLjpNI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

Chamberlain 2 stroke

Found this in Husa's second link, seems like it's a quote from the Bible :-

That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there a thing whereof men say ‘See, this is new?’ It hath been already in the ages that were before us....
- Ecclesiastes.

Have they found the Ryger yet? - bet it was buried somewhere in Holland and Harry just happened to stumble across it!

[ken seeber]

Thanks for that Husa, another couple of hours spent getting distracted, one youtube leading into another youtube. :rolleyes:

Welcome back Willy, you obviously made a successful escape back into NZ from Oz, the home of the Chamberlain and many other great and dumb things.

Now fellers, don't tell Fletto (alias Uniflow) about the chamberlain, he's got enough on his plate. :msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

Now fellers, don't tell Fletto (alias Uniflow) about the chamberlain, he's got enough on his plate.I don't think Flettner will be too distracted by the Chamberlain uniflow engine; he already built a much better version some time ago.
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[WilDun]

Welcome back Willy, you obviously made a successful escape back into NZ from Oz, the home of the Chamberlain and many other great and dumb things.


Thanks Ken, was on my way over to see you but I got as far as Canberra and decided to call it a day (was I on the right road?). :confused:
Enjoyed my short visit, ie till my left hip (of three and a half years) decided to play up big time seemingly by too much walking.
That sure as hell stymied things a little! - just managed to get back on the plane and needed a wheelchair at both ends, still hurts but will have to wait for up to 6 weeks to get back to how it was (are you listening Flettner?).
Luckily it seems that everything is still intact and the bad pain is caused by scar tissue on the tendons.
Beside all that Aussie was fine (if a little hot!). :niceone:

No more workshop for a while!

[Flettner]

Thanks Ken, was on my way over to see you but I got as far as Canberra and decided to call it a day (was I on the right road?). :confused:
Enjoyed my short visit, ie till my left hip (of three and a half years) decided to play up big time seemingly by too much walking.
That sure as hell stymied things a little! - just managed to get back on the plane and needed a wheelchair at both ends, still hurts but will have to wait for up to 6 weeks to get back to how it was (are you listening Flettner?).
Luckily it seems that everything is still intact and the bad pain is caused by scar tissue on the tendons.
Beside all that Aussie was fine (if a little hot!). :niceone:

No more workshop for a while!

You need a ceramic / titanium unit like mine:yes: Good for 25 years they say. NOT if I keep doing enduros.
I'm about to see a physio about my hip tomorrow, too much gym and it does hurt a bit, best I LISTEN to what they say. Wife wonders why I'm wasting my time as "you know it all anyway" , do you think thats a dig at me?

[Grumph]

You need a ceramic / titanium unit like mine:yes: Good for 25 years they say. NOT if I keep doing enduros.
I'm about to see a physio about my hip tomorrow, too much gym and it does hurt a bit, best I LISTEN to what they say. Wife wonders why I'm wasting my time as "you know it all anyway" , do you think thats a dig at me?

No, it's a generic thing, they all say that. I just say, "yes dear, you're right as usual...."
Your mate Nev stayed the night last week on his way to the Burt...it turned into a very late night indeed...

Re the Chamberlain, I first saw that written up in the 60's. Thought at the time that WA in the period was probably devoid of much of interest so occupying yourself building a GP car made an interesting hobby. If Burt Munro had TV would he have built what he did ?

[J.A.W.]

Last point to add re the 90* even fire scenario, is that if the vibration issue could be addressed,then we have the grip and rider feel advantages
with this setup that is seen in a 90* V4 and the crossplane M1 that fire 4 times every 2 revolutions.
As two pistons are at TDC or BDC the other two are at 1/2 stroke, thus the inertia torque from the crank is virtually cancelled out.
As this inertia torque is of greater magnitude than the combustion forces below 4000 and above 14,000 in a big 4T, having this effect removed from
the forces acting on the rear tyre will have the same advantages in a 4 cyl inline 2T firing 4 times every revolution as well.



Cheers for the considered feedback on the even-fire 'crossplane' subject Wobbly, (which concurs with the views Frits had, earlier on).

& AFAIR, the 4 cyl 1000cc unit cobbled from the Kawasaki H2 also used a 90`crank, so I expect the 5 cyl was at 72`, for
a 5-star 'crossplane' even-fire crank configuration, like-wise.

[tjbw]

http://carzz.co/roadog_190195.jpg

At 17 feet (5.2m), 3280 pounds (1.49 tonne), is this the longest, heaviest bike ever?

[WilDun]

You need a ceramic / titanium unit like mine:yes: Good for 25 years they say. NOT if I keep doing enduros.
I'm about to see a physio about my hip tomorrow, too much gym and it does hurt a bit, best I LISTEN to what they say. Wife wonders why I'm wasting my time as "you know it all anyway" , do you think thats a dig at me?

I thought for three and a half years that they were perfect for me and would see me out! That was not to be unfortunately - one completely seized up when it became infected - that was that, so they removed the ball, cleaned it out and replaced it giving me a horrendous one and a half weeks in hospital! (just got back home) - nothing mechanically failed in the joint, still perfect but infection is another thing entirely!

Dunno about your hip joint but apparently they are all suceptable to infection - although relatively rare, it can happen (as in my case) and is causing me to consider closing up my little amateur workshop, which even a month ago would have been totally unthinkable!

My advice to you is, be careful because even small infected nicks and knocks anywhere on the body, which you will easily get around the track and workshop can cause BIG problems!
:)

[ken seeber]

Hey Willy, yung fella, good to have you back.
Yes, the key thing to life is staying alive. So if you put things on hold (I didn't say get rid of :msn-wink:) for a bit that's ok.
I'm sure Fletto will keep you interested until you get back into it.

[Flettner]

I thought for three and a half years that they were perfect for me and would see me out! That was not to be unfortunately - one completely seized up when it became infected - that was that, so they removed the ball, cleaned it out and replaced it giving me a horrendous one and a half weeks in hospital! (just got back home) - nothing mechanically failed in the joint, still perfect but infection is another thing entirely!

Dunno about your hip joint but apparently they are all suceptable to infection - although relatively rare, it can happen (as in my case) and is causing me to consider closing up my little amateur workshop, which even a month ago would have been totally unthinkable!

My advice to you is, be careful because even small infected nicks and knocks anywhere on the body, which you will easily get around the track and workshop can cause BIG problems!
:)

Now you are just frightening me, I thought I was told after about a year and a half the thing sort of grew a sealed cover over it to protect it? Then, I can really cut loose:woohoo:

[WilDun]

Now you are just frightening me, I thought I was told after about a year and a half the thing sort of grew a sealed cover over it to protect it? Then, I can really cut loose:woohoo:

Well, you do that!
Me? - back into hospital again - this time the medication went totally awol! just got out again yesterday evening,with my fingers crossed.
Unlike you, I'm now a fragile old man (at least that's how it appears at the moment) and I won't be pushing the boundaries anymore!
Three months of intravenous medication ahead! :facepalm:

[WilDun]

Hey Willy, yung fella, good to have you back.
Yes, the key thing to life is staying alive. So if you put things on hold (I didn't say get rid of :msn-wink:) for a bit that's ok.
I'm sure Fletto will keep you interested until you get back into it.

Thanks Ken, will just have to bide my time.

[Flettner]

Well, you do that!
Me? - back into hospital again - this time the medication went totally awol! just got out again yesterday evening,with my fingers crossed.
Unlike you, I'm now a fragile old man (at least that's how it appears at the moment) and I won't be pushing the boundaries anymore!
Three months of intravenous medication ahead! :facepalm:

I guess when I say cut loose that would be fix the old F9 up again and do some quiet trail rides. My physio gave me a little "talking to".
I am very grateful to be just doing what I'm doing now.

[J.A.W.]

Well, you do that!
Me? - back into hospital again - this time the medication went totally awol! just got out again yesterday evening,with my fingers crossed.
Unlike you, I'm now a fragile old man (at least that's how it appears at the moment) and I won't be pushing the boundaries anymore!
Three months of intravenous medication ahead! :facepalm:


Jeeze WD-80, to be sure, you're "pushing the boundaries" of off-topic posts - with your sorry invalid/medical misadventure saga..

I wouldn't comment, 'cept for the fact that you made such a song & dance ( is that what did your hip joint in?) here earlier..
..about what you perceived to be thread hi-jacking..


Oh, & I note that Marcy has been conspicuously absent - in the face of the considered views of a couple of notable 2T engineers..
.. on the viability/desirability of a 90`even-fire inline 4cyl 2T crank configuration - subject..

& this.. after bagging the shit out of me - for having the temerity - to even moot it here..

[Frits Overmars]

What is it with you, J.A.W? Were you denied a red tricycle as a child?

Sorry about that, folks. I'll try to behave like an adult again from now on. I just had to get it out of my system.

[WilDun]

I guess when I say cut loose that would be fix the old F9 up again and do some quiet trail rides. My physio gave me a little "talking to".
I am very grateful to be just doing what I'm doing now.

That's the story! don't let anything interfere with your other stuff!
Frits, exactly the same advice to you .
You guys do a sterling job.

BTW, It has now become plain to me that when there is nothing else in life to do but be glued to the keyboard, it can affect the balance of the mind, ( evidence provided by "whatshisname").

[J.A.W.]

What is it with you, J.A.W? Were you denied a red tricycle as a child?

Sorry about that, folks. I'll try to behave like an adult again from now on. I just had to get it out of my system.

Mate, I had to make do with hand me downs, so I've since learned not to wear any crap, - if you want to know..

But, Frits, frankly - I think we should try & stick to discussion of issues that relate to the thread topic..
.. rather than going off tangent on to "what is it with you", or lamentations over various human physical failings..

If anyone is really interested in such stuff, there is an off topic section in which they can be addressed.

I will point out that both you & Wobbly have both put on record here that there is merit in the TZ 750 with 90`crank idea,
which I mooted & yet was pilloried over, needlessly.. so, I give as good as I get eh, man, & there it is.. ok..

[Frits Overmars]

...Frits, frankly - I think we should try & stick to discussion of issues that relate to the thread topic...Agreed, so that's what we will try do do. We can also give other people some leeway instead of forcing them to behave like we think they should.
Let's leave that kind of behaviour to Islamic State, OK?

[J.A.W.]

That's the story! don't let anything interfere with your other stuff!
Frits, exactly the same advice to you .
You guys do a sterling job, so I'll do my bit & stop waffling on with extraneous blather.

BTW, It has now become plain to me that when there is nothing else in life to do but be on an anti-biotic drip, it can affect the balance of the mind, ( evidence provided by own empirical experience).


Yeah, fixed that for ya W-D..

Now can we get back to the actual bloody thread topic?

This site listed below has a number of interesting engine tuning technical tips..

http://www.eric-gorr.com/

[PrincessBandit]

Just a wee reminder that this site has an ignore function which is easily accessible. There are many here who speak gems of interest but which are often buried in a coating of bile and shit. You either accept that the "gems" are worth scraping the crap off in order to view or use Ignore.

[F5 Dave]

11 years I've been here and I've just used the ignore function just once. Its brilliant.

Go to settings. Then on left, edit ignore list.
Type in J.A.W. and save. When you view it again it has the name in the list. It's like he's gone and you don't have to read his sociopathic spiel. Bliss.

11 years and only one. Go ahead (you really cant help your nasty self) I can't hear you.

[J.A.W.]

11 years I've been here and I've just used the ignore function just once. Its brilliant.

Go to settings. Then on left, edit ignore list.
Type in J.A.W. and save. When you view it again it has the name in the list. It's like he's gone and you don't have to read his sociopathic spiel. Bliss.

11 years and only one. Go ahead (you really cant help your nasty self) I can't hear you.


Yeah.. & that'll be a couple more pointless off-topic posts to dog up the bloody thread..

As for his faux "sociopathic spiel" comment, I'd suggest dyno-Dave checks out 'passive-aggressive/avoidant personality traits'..
..he might gain some insight into his own deficits.. but then, his self-awareness level is such, I really doubt he'd grasp it..


Anyhow, FFS, can we now get back on topic.. see here how a 40+ year old 2T production bike mill is still competitive in race spec..

www.cycledrag.com/long-live-the-two-strokes-garrett-wood-sets-super-eliminator-record-in-memphis

[WilDun]

There are many here who speak gems of interest but which are often buried in a coating of bile and shit. You either accept that the "gems" are worth scraping the crap off in order to view or use Ignore.

I'd rather use 'IGNORE' like Dave and find the 'uncoated' versions of the gems myself. and of course I won't hear the usual vitriolic retort that this post will undoubtedly bring!

[ken seeber]

Have been out of action myself for a while/still and I had a look in here. Bloody hell J.A.W., what’s gotten into you? Can‘t you differentiate between real crap and what’s actually been going on here for quite some time (most of it not crap)?
I think that you might have forgotten that forums such as this serve many purposes: information sharing, amusement, participation, interest, looking at alternative things, relaxation, reminiscing, encouraging, etc and, importantly, friendship. I am absolutely sure that many friendships have been established by the introduction of people via forums. Happily, I am one who has benefitted here.
So J.A.W. there must be another side to you that we’re not seeing. Could we please just see that side only. Thanks

[Flettner]

Have been out of action myself for a while/still and I had a look in here. Bloody hell J.A.W., what’s gotten into you? Can‘t you differentiate between real crap and what’s actually been going on here for quite some time (most of it not crap)?
I think that you might have forgotten that forums such as this serve many purposes: information sharing, amusement, participation, interest, looking at alternative things, relaxation, reminiscing, encouraging, etc and, importantly, friendship. I am absolutely sure that many friendships have been established by the introduction of people via forums. Happily, I am one who has benefitted here.
So J.A.W. there must be another side to you that we’re not seeing. Could we please just see that side only. Thanks

Hi Ken, you are back, good to see you are on the mend.
I'd have some pictures of the compression engine to show you but my phone says it's going to explode every time I turn it on, bloody virus I guess. Looking at the wrong stuff:bleh:
Never the less I've got an 8mm stroke crank now and an alloy stack over the top of the AG 100 engine cylinder that a fourstroke would be proud of. I'll organise the drive this week and give it a spin up, see what happens? I'll post video (if my phone gets fixed) on the Foundry thread.

[F5 Dave]

Good to have you back Ken. Seriously just put that guy on ignore. I cant see what he writes. We've tried to reason and he's been kicked off many forums before, he's just a nasty sad man. You on the other hand we like.

[mr bucketracer]

is J.A.W like a new kind of engine . i would guess 2 stroke (-; , i will get a picure of a engine that will blow your mind if the old man lets me copy it

[WilDun]

Yes Ken, I hope you are recovering well - we all like to hear from you and your measured reply to our "friend" would have taken some doing!
However the message will fall on deaf ears and things like friendship etc. are obviously concepts totally alien to him and which he has never experienced.
Aussies and Kiwis are usually good mates and normally get along well, (with the odd 'dig' now and again of course).
I would like to see the thread continue and get back on track again, as it was (ie just a lighthearted exchange of views on unusual mechanical stuff etc.) and without any unnecessary controversy.
Hope everything is well with you.
:niceone:

[mr bucketracer]

He we go318081318082

[WilDun]

He we go

I like it, or at least like the concept!
Cam track and rollers could be a bit of a challenge to do, but then there's the bonus of zero sidethrust on the piston, just linear forces on the piston and of course slow shaft speed.
The old man didn't mind then?

[mr bucketracer]

I like it, or at least like the concept!
Cam track and rollers could be a bit of a challenge to do, but then there's the bonus of zero sidethrust on the piston, just linear forces on the piston and of course slow shaft speed.
The old man didn't mind then?i was worryed is would take him forever to find but he put his hands straight on it , just got a phone that takes pitures so now i'm in the 21st century

[Grumph]

He we go

Tell me Ricky Main never saw that article - one of the main selling points of his Geneva wheel motor was the torque multiplication via multiple power strokes per revolution.


i was worryed is would take him forever to find but he put his hands straight on it , just got a phone that takes pitures so now i'm in the 21st century

We old guys with a magazine collection know where everything is - give him my regards. And no, youre not in the 21st century, you still work with your hands rather than doing everything in the virtual world....

[mr bucketracer]

Tell me Ricky Main never saw that article - one of the main selling points of his Geneva wheel motor was the torque multiplication via multiple power strokes per revolution.



We old guys with a magazine collection know where everything is - give him my regards. And no, youre not in the 21st century, you still work with your hands rather than doing everything in the virtual world....lol thanks , will had that message to him , would be a fun thing to make though

[WilDun]

I have never actually found a decent drawing or description of Rick Mayne's engine - I remember seeing it at the time it was being publicised but didn't go into the details and forgot it because I was a bit busy at work.
Can some of you guys come up with something from your archives with some details? - there doesn't seem to be much available on the net anymore!

[Grumph]

I have never actually found a decent drawing or description of Rick Mayne's engine - I remember seeing it at the time it was being publicised but didn't go into the details and forgot it because I was a bit busy at work.
Can some of you guys come up with something from your archives with some details? - there doesn't seem to be much available on the net anymore!

I remember the general details but like you, don't have anything in writing on it. Most of the publicity was TV based with supporting videos. His aim of course was to sell it asap...Either as a going concern or shares. From what i heard at the time, he sold all the shares - or very close to all - and walked.
Memory says that one of the Aussie car mags may have done a write up - with drawings.
The aftermath was enjoyable to watch if you weren't involved. A mutual friend negotiated with IRD to get outstanding tax paid so he could come back to NZ.
It was almost as much fun as his departure for Oz several years earlier. Once IRD realsed he'd skipped, they came down hard on those he'd sold his goods to - at very low prices so as to make a run for it - There were a couple of court cases where IRD seized stuff to try and recover outstanding tax - and the "owners" fought. Mainly they lost...

edit - Google Split Cycle engines Will, someone with better internet than me can follow it up and maybe post a link. I'd forgotten what he called it, it's always known as Ricky's scam around here....I'd doubt if anyone I know has kept the "investors pack" which had all the bumf.

Further edit Another couple of neurons have collided and i remembered where I got the term "investors pack" from. Going North to a National round at Manfield we stopped in to see the guy arranging Ricky's return. He was also Ricky's agent in NZ and was keen to press the packs on us...Knowing RM slightly, we both declined politely. Our friend was sweating on the negotiations with IRD and was jumping at any noise at night as he was half expecting to see Ricky wade ashore from a fishing boat...It was the same bit of Kaikoura coast where Ronald Jorgenson "disappeared"....

[WilDun]

I remember the general details but like you, don't have anything in writing on it. Most of the publicity was TV based with supporting videos. His aim of course was to sell it asap...Either as a going concern or shares. From what i heard at the time, he sold all the shares - or very close to all - and walked.

I do remember the documentary with his flash new "factory" with "CAD stations" through the workshop. The CNC mills etc running, manned by people who didn't seem too sure about what they were making! - and seeing as the design was still not finalised, what could they have been making?
Everything looked to me like it was completely staged - I wasn't convinced at all!
Pity he managed to suck in some rich and famous guys.( who really should have looked into it).

[Grumph]

I do remember the documentary with his flash new "factory" with "CAD stations" through the workshop. The CNC mills etc running, manned by people who didn't seem too sure about what they were making! - and seeing as the design was still not finalised, what could they have been making?
Everything looked to me like it was completely staged - I wasn't convinced at all!
Pity he managed to suck in some rich and famous guys.( who really should have looked into it).

When the publicity started, there was some amazement in ChCh bike circles - general opinion was that he couldn't even build decent trailers. That had been his business here. Once it became apparent he was raking in the money - from Australians - there was some approval. After all, conning Aussies out of money is regarded by a lot of Kiwis as perfectly legitimate business...

[ken seeber]

After all, conning Aussies out of money is regarded by a lot of Kiwis as perfectly legitimate business...

Probably the case Grumph, we’re such a nice, naive, innocent, gullible lot over here. However I’ll have to apologize in advance from hereon after. Australia is broke. :cry: Have a goodie fellas.

[Grumph]

Probably the case Grumph, we’re such a nice, naive, innocent, gullible lot over here. However I’ll have to apologize in advance from hereon after. Australia is broke. :cry: Have a goodie fellas.

Ho, Ho, Ho...I actually met Jack Brabham, he didn't strike me as naive or gullible. How the f... Ricky took him in I'll never know.
Yeah, have a good and fireproof one Ken.

[F5 Dave]

There's always sibling rivalry as we try to poke the older brother in the ribs and run away.
But in a pub fight in London it'll be the Aussies and Kiwis back to back.
Merry Christmas.

[WilDun]

Yep, that's exactly how it is! - and a Merry Christmas to you all.

[G Jones]

I would like to try a 90 degree crank in my twin. Others already have I believe, but little or no "this is the way ahead" feedback have I heard.Sorry to drag this up again - but only just found this thread (probably got too much time on my hands over the "festive" season) - thought it might interest someone...

My experience of running a (near) 90 degree TZ350....
No other reason than curiosity - I'd had the idea in my head for a long time - so - I'd intended using an RD 12 spline crank - but when I came to build the crank up - I'd ordered the wrong centre main bearings - so - Plan B - I'll get it as close as I can with the 13 splined TZ crank - built the crank - made a new ignition backplate for the new firing oder & put it all together.
We ran that motor for most of a season...
Thoughts on whether it works...
First time start up - real difficult to know if it's running on both cylinders - sounds as flat as a....

Vibrates like a bastard - my missus hated the thing - she could feel the vibes through the chassis - can't be sure it was the motor - but i did have a couple of cracks in the frame that season.

Not at all exciting to ride - felt flat & slow - but - we did a back to back engine change from Sat to Sun - lap times were near enough identical - and the 90 degree motor was not built with the best parts - if anything it was worn out - compared to the other "normal" engine - which I considered reasonably quick.

Thing that stood out for me was that you could get away with running into & exiting a corner in the wrong gear - it would just pull away a little easier.

I do intend building it up again when I've got time - this time I'll build it up with a good barrel, pistons & head I've been too busy with chassis work for a while to get back to it....

The main reason not to do this years ago - was most ignitions available to us peasants were fixed 180 - we use a Pro-digital now - which is real easy to put the spark wherever you want it

[Flettner]

Sorry to drag this up again - but only just found this thread (probably got too much time on my hands over the "festive" season) - thought it might interest someone...

My experience of running a (near) 90 degree TZ350....
No other reason than curiosity - I'd had the idea in my head for a long time - so - I'd intended using an RD 12 spline crank - but when I came to build the crank up - I'd ordered the wrong centre main bearings - so - Plan B - I'll get it as close as I can with the 13 splined TZ crank - built the crank - made a new ignition backplate for the new firing oder & put it all together.
We ran that motor for most of a season...
Thoughts on whether it works...
First time start up - real difficult to know if it's running on both cylinders - sounds as flat as a....

Vibrates like a bastard - my missus hated the thing - she could feel the vibes through the chassis - can't be sure it was the motor - but i did have a couple of cracks in the frame that season.

Not at all exciting to ride - felt flat & slow - but - we did a back to back engine change from Sat to Sun - lap times were near enough identical - and the 90 degree motor was not built with the best parts - if anything it was worn out - compared to the other "normal" engine - which I considered reasonably quick.

Thing that stood out for me was that you could get away with running into & exiting a corner in the wrong gear - it would just pull away a little easier.

I do intend building it up again when I've got time - this time I'll build it up with a good barrel, pistons & head I've been too busy with chassis work for a while to get back to it....

The main reason not to do this years ago - was most ignitions available to us peasants were fixed 180 - we use a Pro-digital now - which is real easy to put the spark wherever you want it

Could you bolt on an external counter rotating balance shaft?

[husaberg]

References were made In cable news recently to a' new heavy oil engine invented in New Zealand, to which British experts were paying much attention. This engine is Identified by the Dunlop Perdriau Rubber Co., Ltd., as the Edlin-Stewart, a sleeve valve two-stroke in- vented by two New Zealanders, and which Is practically a compound reciprocating in- ternal combustion engine.
Each cylinder contains two working pistons, one of the ordinary design, and the other ta the form of a moving sleeve with the top end closed. This sleeve-piston combination performs the functions of primarily com- pressing the explosive mixture, transferring the gas into the combustion chamber, and participating in the power stroke. The crank- shaft has three throws for each cylinder; the ordinary piston rod connects with the centre one, whilst those set on each side extend some distance above the top of the standard piston, where they operate m a chamber sur- rounding the cylinder wall, and are attached on opposite sides of the moving sleeve. The piston bearing and the two sleeve bearings are set at angles of 180 degrees, the result being that as the crankshaft revolves the piston comes down and the sleeve moves up the cylinder. A second sleeve, which is stationary, Is provided over which the auxiliary piston or sleeve, slides down overlapping the top portion of the fixed sleeve, inside of which the ordinary piston reciprocates. The effect of this construction is that as the sleeve moves down, it draws into the head of the cyclinder a gaseous mixture direct from the carburettor. This mixture Is compressed as the sleeve moves to the top of the firing stroke, when a port in the sleeve-coinciding with a port in the cylinder-allows the com- pressed mixture to be transferred under velocity, Into the explosion chamber between the piston-head and inside of the moving sleeve. As the crankshaft revolves the sleeve and ordinary piston move towards each other, compressing the explosive mixture, which Is fired at the height of its compression by an ordinary sparking plug. An additional port is also actuated to permit the exhaust gases to escape. The burning of the mixture exerts Its power by forcing the piston down- wards and the sleeve upwards, thus Imparting two impulses to the crankshaft. This double expansion of the explosive charge converts a larger number of heat units Into power than does the ordinary petrol four-stroke com- bustion engine. The gain Is said to amount from 40 to 50 per cent, from a given size of
engine.
By this mechanical construction, crankcase compression-one of the undesirable features of the two-stroke engine-Is eliminated; whilst the temperature of the exhaust gases is very materially reduced and an extraordinary thermal efficiency attained. At all ranges of speed the engine is said to be remarkably free of vibration, owing to the perfect balance
obtained.
The new engine Is Ingenious and yet sur- prisingly simple; and Judging by its reception by English experts, Its future is promising. If It lives up to its promise, then possibly it may yet mark a new era ta the history of Internal combustion engines, for by Its use a four-cylinder engine would give the smooth even torque of an "eight" with approximately only half the weight and size.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16739095?searchTerm=edlin&searchLimits=
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=pNqdBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT280&lpg=PT280&dq=edlin+stewart+engine&source=bl&ots=sjOV8uu4P8&sig=wx5r-mbVoZis7WIIMuth-wxCejs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXo6nd5InKAhVGe6YKHR51Am0Q6AEINDAG#v=on epage&q=edlin%20stewart%20engine&f=false
note this link includes the Simkin engine that I have already posted
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZTR19301211.2.112
http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/thenew-zealand-edlin-stewart-engine-company-limited/patents/

what became of it according to Stewart the Germans stole it and used it in the Junkers 88

[F5 Dave]

All this use of explosive charges and exploding in general sounds bad for the longevity of the mechanical device the chemical reaction is contained within.

[Ocean1]

All this use of explosive charges and exploding in general sounds bad for the longevity of the mechanical device the chemical reaction is contained within.

Meh.......

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/01Sr8S9uQMc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Frits Overmars]

according to Stewart the Germans stole it and used it in the Junkers 88You can blame the Germans for all sorts of things, but not this. Junkers' best-known engine, the Jumo 205 or 1933, was an opposed-piston two-stroke. It had sleeves allright, but they did not move. It had two crankshafts, six cylinders and twelve pistons. Below are a couple of pics I took at the Berlin Technikmuseum five months ago.
Click 3x for details.
318473 318474

The Junkers 88 plane that Stewart referred to, never had sleeve valves. It had either V-12 OHV engines with three poppet valves per cylinder, called Jumo 211 or Jumo 213, or BMW radial engines, also with poppet valves.

[husaberg]

You can blame the Germans for all sorts of things, but not this. Junkers' best-known engine, the Jumo 205 or 1933, was an opposed-piston two-stroke. It had sleeves allright, but they did not move. It had two crankshafts, six cylinders and twelve pistons. Below are a couple of pics I took at the Berlin Technikmuseum five months ago.

The Junkers 88 plane that Stewart referred to, never had sleeve valves. It had either V-12 OHC engines with three puppet valves per cylinder, called Jumo 211 or Jumo 213, or BMW radial engines, also with puppet valves.

318473 318474

I was googling it before there as I wondered the same thing there was I think a junkers torpedo engine that was a sleeve valve two stroke I wondered if that was it. I am pretty sure I have posted a pic of it before.

[tjbw]

I was googling it before there as I wondered the same thing there was I think a junkers torpedo engine that was a sleeve valve two stroke I wondered if that was it. I am pretty sure I have posted a pic of it before.

There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years.

http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/post-2-junkerswankel-km8-disc-valve.html?m=1

[husaberg]

There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years.

http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/post-2-junkerswankel-km8-disc-valve.html?m=1

Yeah cheers that was the one, but that's nothing like it either, maybe the world beater kiwi engine was just rather not so great.
I guess any story that includes a possible face to face meeting with a reclusive Howard Hughes might be a bit iffy anyway

[tjbw]

Yeah cheers that was the one, but that's nothing like it either, maybe the world beater kiwi engine was just rather not so great.
I guess any story that includes a possible face to face meeting with a reclusive Howard Hughes might be a bit iffy anyway

It's an interesting concept. But only the upper piston is working on primary compression, so it can only transfer about 50% of the total swept volume into the cylinder.

Item 15 is described as a check valve. It looks more like a cylindrical rotary valve, though no drive is shown.

Those countersunk screws make me nervous, could just use circlips to hold conrods to sleeve?

[Frits Overmars]

There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years. http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/post-2-junkerswankel-km8-disc-valve.html?m=1You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1918 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
318478

[tjbw]

You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1919 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
318478

Thanks for the Sun info Frits, I didn't know about that one.

Would you attribute the reflected wave exhaust to Walter Kaaden?

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks for the Sun info Frits, I didn't know about that one. Would you attribute the reflected wave exhaust to Walter Kaaden?Certainly not. http://www.pit-lane.biz/t702p79-oldies-l-incroyable-histoire-de-kaaden-et-degner-mz

[Niels Abildgaard]

Certainly not. http://www.pit-lane.biz/t702p79-oldies-l-incroyable-histoire-de-kaaden-et-degner-mz

Nice reading.
Kaden as father of two strokes is just as ridicuolus as hcci invented in 1986 by some anglo saxon

[husaberg]

You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1918 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
318478

Scott also had non flat disk valves prior to this


It's an interesting concept. But only the upper piston is working on primary compression, so it can only transfer about 50% of the total swept volume into the cylinder.

Item 15 is described as a check valve. It looks more like a cylindrical rotary valve, though no drive is shown.

Those countersunk screws make me nervous, could just use circlips to hold conrods to sleeve?
As I can't quite picture how the Stewart engine goes I am hoping Neil will have one going this afternoon.

note
It might be best to leave who came first augments out of the thread as us kiwis are still a bit miffed over Richard Pearce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse

[Frits Overmars]

As I can't quite picture how the Stewart engine goes I am hoping Neil will have one going this afternoon.Give the man a chance! It's sunday; can't you wait till tomorrow afternoon?

[tjbw]

Give the man a chance! It's sunday; can't you wait till tomorrow afternoon?

But, but he doesn't need time for drawings, and I have to say the quality of his work is outstanding :msn-wink:

[WilDun]

But, but he doesn't need time for drawings, and I have to say the quality of his work is outstanding :msn-wink:

Going back a little, that disc valve setup was used experimentally on a NSU Rennmax 250, but apparently unsuccessfully.

The Ju88 normally used a V12 liquid cooled engine all wrapped in a neat cowl which made it look like an aircooled radial.

The opposed piston Jumo engine was employed successfully in torpedo boats - it was also developed further (by Napier in Britain who had acquired the right to build them under licence in the thirties) into the Napier Deltic Locomotive engine - these were very successful engines used for many years.

Best check it out - even I can sometimes be wrong! :laugh:

[J.A.W.]

Going back a little, that disc valve setup was used experimentally on a NSU Rennmax 250, but apparently unsuccessfully.

The Ju88 normally used a V12 liquid cooled engine all wrapped in a neat cowl which made it look like an aircooled radial.

The opposed piston Jumo engine was employed successfully in torpedo boats - it was also developed further (by Napier in Britain who had acquired the right to build them under licence in the thirties) into the Napier Deltic Locomotive engine - these were very successful engines used for many years.

Best check it out - even I can sometimes be wrong! :laugh:


Yeah W-D, & your post quoted above needs a bit of correction..

As previously noted in this thread, the in-service Ju 88 flew with Jumo V12's or BMW radials in a German power-egg equivalent to the British Merlin/Hercules set-up used in Lancasters & Beafighters,.

The Jumo V12 was also to be found doing duty as an alternative to the BMW radial in the later Ju 188, & FW 190 machines, which also used the
annular/drum-type front mounted radiator, but didn't really look too radial like, being longer & with a tell-tale inline set of ejector exhausts..

The opposed piston CI 2T was used in the Ju 86, & made some very high ( for the day) altitude photo-recon/bombing raids on Blighty..

The Napier Deltic was a typically innovative Napier mill that successfully mated 3 sets of the Jumo OP design en-bloc, running one crankshaft
in reverse rotation for timimng purposes.

The Deltic name came from the triangular arrangement resembling the Greek letter of the same name, & the mill was so effective that even
the USN used them for fast patrol boat duties in Viet-Nam, during the war there, The Deltic was too heavy to fly, of course, but Napier had the
Nomad CI 2T for that application, which was sadly cruelled by the advent of the gas-turbine for aero-mills, ( & like the Deltic, did not feature SV's..)

[tjbw]

Scott also had non flat disk valves prior to this


As I can't quite picture how the Stewart engine goes I am hoping Neil will have one going this afternoon.

note
It might be best to leave who came first augments out of the thread as us kiwis are still a bit miffed over Richard Pearce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse

Sorry sorry, I cluttered up the thread.

Here's another little oddball engine, it was patented by Robert Reynolds in 1909:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/reynolds%202.jpg

It uses a flat rotary disc valve in the head!

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US924382

[WilDun]

Here's another little oddball engine, it was patented by Robert Reynolds in 1909:
It uses a flat rotary disc valve in the head!

As I said earlier, NSU experimented with a similar design (post war) but I can't find anything about it on the net. However I have a book somewhere with some details and I will scan the pic when I find it.

BTW. we were discussing four stroke disc inlet and exhaust valves (in the cylinder head) here - not to be confused with two stroke disc inlet valves in the crankcase, a totally different scenario.

Someone mentioned earlier that Scott motorcycles used disc inlet valves in the crankcase of their two stroke twins way back in the early part of the 20th century, but I believe they were actually oscillating valves driven off the conrod (please don't quote me on this though - I'm not a fanatical "Googler") :laugh:

[tjbw]

As I said earlier, NSU experimented with a similar design (post war) but I can't find anything about it on the net. However I have a book somewhere with some details and I will scan the pic when I find it.

BTW. we were discussing four stroke disc inlet and exhaust valves (in the cylinder head) here - not to be confused with two stroke disc inlet valves in the crankcase, a totally different scenario.

Someone mentioned earlier that Scott motorcycles used disc inlet valves in the crankcase of their two stroke twins way back in the early part of the 20th century, but I believe they were actually oscillating valves driven off the conrod (please don't quote me on this though - I'm not a fanatical "Googler") :laugh:

I look forward to seeing the NSU pics.

Some Scotts had a rotary cylindrical type inlet valve.

At first they used a chain drive to the valve. Then they switched to a gear drive. Finally they switched to a simple link from the con-rod, and the valve oscillated. That was more than 100 years ago!

I think the Scotts were way ahead of their time, watercooled twins, overhung cranks, low COG, first kick start on a motorbike.

Regarding rotary valves in the head, quite a few have tried these, without much success.

There's an exception, a Kiwi, Ralph Watson, who converted a BSA V twin in his sports car, to rotary valves.

An account of how he did it can be found here:

http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/rotary.html

I wonder is Ralph related to Neil.

[WilDun]

I look forward to seeing the NSU pics.

Some Scotts had a rotary cylindrical type inlet valve.

At first they used a chain drive to the valve. Then they switched to a gear drive. Finally they switched to a simple link from the con-rod, and the valve oscillated. That was more than 100 years ago!

There's a Kiwi, Ralph Watson, who modified a BSA V twin in his sports car, with rotary valves.

I wonder is Ralph related to Neil.

Yes that's the valve arrangement I was thinking of! - Scott was way ahead with his thinking, but I wouldn't be so sure of overhung cranks! we see this arrangement often in weedeaters etc.(strimmers to you) and model aircraft engines etc. but a bit impractical on motorcycles (two shafts usually required). I've also seen the results of the conrod slipping off!
As for four strokes (or ohv two strokes) I don't think that the sliding action of the rotary valves takes too kindly to the lack of lubrication or the heat!
Yes, I know that Aspin, Cross etc. nearly got there, but not quite!

We have a Kiwi axial engine here in Auckland (the Duke engine which appears to be a highly developed design loosely based on the one used by the Bristol Tramways of the thirties) and is working very well. It uses sliding contact exhaust port valves and has gradually progressed to an advanced stage.

How easily it will manage to break into the automotive/aviation market etc. remains to be seen!

UPDATE - And no, I doubt if Neil is related to Ralph Watson, Neil is the only one of his kind!

However that was a very interesting article on the rotary valve car, Ralph obviously was (or is?) a very dedicated and methodical guy and didn't give up like many others did!
BTW, in that article, if you scroll down to a few paragraphs before the first illustration, the NSU overhead disc valve got a mention (no illustration though) - that, is what I am still trying to locate!

[WilDun]

Starting a Field Marshall......Meh.......

My uncle had a Field Marshall tractor and I did see him start it once with a cartridge, but I'm pretty sure that the cartridge didn't contain any pellets etc! - and if I was using it, I'd have made damn sure that it was at least 40deg past TDC before trying it - starting was instantaneous!!
Mostly the starting was done manually with 2 guys swinging the huge flywheel up to speed and flicking off the decompressor - what a bugger when it failed to start on a cold morning!

[Grumph]

UPDATE - And no, I doubt if Neil is related to Ralph Watson, Neil is the only one of his kind!

However that was a very interesting article on the rotary valve car, Ralph obviously was (or is?) a very dedicated and methodical guy and didn't give up like many others did!

Pretty sure Ralph's dead now. He kept the BSA car pretty well to the end of his life. He brought it South to an early Classic car race meeting and i was privileged to have a short conversation with him. He's much better known for the Lycoming special of course but the BSA suited him in his old age as he was in no hurry...One of many Kiwi specials builders who gained knowledge serving in the air force in WW2.

[WilDun]

Pretty sure Ralph's dead now. He's much better known for the Lycoming special of course but the BSA suited him in his old age as he was in no hurry...One of many Kiwi specials builders who gained knowledge serving in the air force in WW2.

Why do all these Kiwis get forgotten? - just a tad too modest I guess, there is the odd exceptions of course, like the devious Kiwi gentleman who conned the Aussies as we discussed a while ago!

BTW, here is the picture of the Disc Valve NSU engine I was talking about - apparently the guy behind it was Froede and it wasn't on a 250cc Rennmax as I stated before, it was an experimental 125.

318619
.

[J.A.W.]

My uncle had a Field Marshall tractor and I did see him start it once with a cartridge, but I'm pretty sure that the cartridge didn't contain any pellets etc! - and if I was using it, I'd have made damn sure that it was at least 40deg past TDC before trying it - starting was instantaneous!!
Mostly the starting was done manually with 2 guys swinging the huge flywheel up to speed and flicking off the decompressor - what a bugger when it failed to start on a cold morning!

Yeah, W-D, the Coffman ( & there's an apropos name) cartridge starter was common on big aero-mills such as the Napier Sabre..
Some may recall the plume of pryotechics smoke that blew from the RNZAF Vampires turbo-jet on start-up using this device..

& of course the good ol' Coffman protocol was included as a suspense/dramatic sequence - in the original 'Flight of the Phoenix' movie..

I am a bit surprised that no red-blooded Kiwi old-school biker/engineer hasn't developed a Coffman starter for his Norton Commando,
but it'd likely be unlawful for downunder public use, - or to sell to the H-D hard men for use in 'Merica, as an extra tough 'n' loud burly biker turn on gimmick..

The Coffman system was light, which does make it attractive, albeit perhaps a bit fraught if mishandled, being flaming pyrotechical..

[tjbw]

Pretty sure Ralph's dead now. He kept the BSA car pretty well to the end of his life. He brought it South to an early Classic car race meeting and i was privileged to have a short conversation with him. He's much better known for the Lycoming special of course but the BSA suited him in his old age as he was in no hurry...One of many Kiwi specials builders who gained knowledge serving in the air force in WW2.

Sorry to say he died in 2006.

Without doubt he was a very talented man,

More information on Ralph, and his many other projects can be found here:

http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/

[Ocean1]

Yeah, W-D, the Coffman ( & there's an apropos name) cartridge starter was common on big aero-mills such as the Napier Sabre....

Coffman starter is nothing like the cartridge system on a Field Marshall.

There was once a couple of large Ruston Bucyrus draglines working the Clutha river, (memory says RB72s) and I think they were cartridge start too. There was a picture of my mother's Mini parked in one of the buckets in the Southland Times of the day. There's some formidable eels in that river I can tell you.

[J.A.W.]

Coffman starter is nothing like the cartridge system on a Field Marshall.

Yeah, it is..

The use of a compact lightweight expanding gas-thrust unit to boot the mill in the guts to run - is fundamentally identical..

Of course, no expensive high-quality aero-mill is gonna have the filthy pyrotechnical residues pumped straight through it,
so yeah, they have a mechanical-starter transfer stage, unlike the rusticated agricultural equipment, but in essence - its the same deal..

[Grumph]

Sorry to say he died in 2006.

Without doubt he was a very talented man,

More information on Ralph, and his many other projects can be found here:

Talented indeed. I note several mentions of Hec Green - he, Jack Brewer and my old man were good friends - and all AMIMechE qualified engineers. All had input into Hec's series of RA specials. A lot of it was designed on our kitchen table - with an interested kid watching...

Amusing also to see the casual mention of Rolls Merlin engine parts - often timing gears - used where appropriate. At one point a dealer in ChCh would sell you a crated merlin for about five pounds. The final twin cam RA Special motors used Merlin timing gears in the cam drive.

[ken seeber]

Back to rotary valves, there are also a couple more from good old Oz. One of these is the Dunstan rotary valve, done in the 50s and adapted to the Holden grey motor. This is on display at the motor museum at the Bathurst track, near you JAW.

318626318627318628

The other is the Bishop valve. Rather than using flats on the valve shaft, the Bishop is an axial flow design with exhaust and inlet coming in from opposite ends of the near fully hollow shaft. I think that it is pretty similar to the Norton valve, but the reason for its technical success is the sealing arrangement, which like a piston ring, is pressure activated. This is still being commercially pursued, possibly for a racing application.

318629

[tjbw]

Back to rotary valves, there are also a couple more from good old Oz. One of these is the Dunstan rotary valve, done in the 50s and adapted to the Holden grey motor. This is on display at the motor museum at the Bathurst track, near you JAW.

318626318627318628

The other is the Bishop valve. Rather than using flats on the valve shaft, the Bishop is an axial flow design with exhaust and inlet coming in from opposite ends of the near fully hollow shaft. I think that it is pretty similar to the Norton valve, but the reason for its technical success is the sealing arrangement, which like a piston ring, is pressure activated. This is still being commercially pursued, possibly for a racing application.

318629

I thought the Coates Spherical Rotary Valve was developed in Australia. However they now seem to be based in USA, with manufacturing in China.

http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html

[WilDun]

The Coates engine has been on the go for a lot of years now and there is a lot which has been said and a lot of illustrations and accolades - so why has it not actually gone into production?
Is it possible that the good old established poppet valve is holding it's own and manufacturers are comfortable with the money flowing in - Guess they already have something tried and true and don't want to take any risks starting something completely new.
NSU got caught out and sunk by taking on production of the Wankel Engine after all!

[J.A.W.]

NSU got caught out and sunk by taking on production of the Wankel Engine after all!


No W-D, the VW group bought NSU & incorporated them into Audi in `69, but the Ro 80 lasted 'til `77..

Not that any Wankel rotary piston powered production machine has ever been really successful for its makers,
except as a niche/novelty unit & in certain motorsports/flight applications - where its inherent power-to-weight
works to overcome its other serious limitations..

Curious that the Wankel unit never made the cut in application as a marine mill though..

There are suggestions that Toyo Kogyo ( 'Mazda')may do a new production run of 'em, fitted with DFI..

[J.A.W.]

Curious that the Wankel unit never made the cut in application as a marine mill though..


OMC ( Evinrude) did build a prototype Wankel-rotary piston outboard - back in the late `60s/early `70s period when the popularity
of the design was at its peak, but like most of 'em, never made it to market..

Here is an interesting big V12 mill currently being developed for boat racing..

www.enginelabs.com/news-aardema-v12-sets-sights-on-hydroplane-racing/

[peewee]

has someone seem one of these first hand ?

[pete376403]

This one shown up yet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_lifeboat_engine

[tjbw]

This one shown up yet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_lifeboat_engine

That's an oddball!

It's a two cylinder, opposed piston, uniflow two stroke.

There are two crankshafts, six pistons (including two pumping pistons), two spark plugs.

A third cylinder, has two double-acting opposed pistons, which pump the mixture into the other two cylinders.

If only Vincent and Irving had continued development!

One of these very rare engines sold a week ago for just US$28,750.

More info and photos on the auction page:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23131/lot/154/

I'm not sure how long that page will be available.

[Grumph]

That's an oddball!

It's a two cylinder, opposed piston, uniflow two stroke.

There are two crankshafts, six pistons (including two pumping pistons), two spark plugs.

A third cylinder, has two double-acting opposed pistons, which pump the mixture into the other two cylinders.

If only Vincent and Irving had continued development!

One of these very rare engines sold a week ago for just US$28,750.

They didn't get into production AFAIK because they were too complex and cost too much to make. Typical Vincent.
We had the one which did get made in a yacht as an auxiliary engine. Much more compact, fitted under the cockpit floor easily, single hole in the keelson, feathering prop. And from memory the old man paid about 20 quid for it. Can't remember who made it, think it was made in the US. Twin opposed 2 stroke anyway.

[ken seeber]

There's a bit more on the Vincent marine engine here. http://thekneeslider.com/vincent-500cc-6-piston-3-cylinder-2-stroke-engine/

[WilDun]

There's a bit more on the Vincent marine engine here. http://thekneeslider.com/vincent-500cc-6-piston-3-cylinder-2-stroke-engine/

Probably missed something earlier on, but I guess it has a crankshaft at each end like the Junkers Jumo (or Neil's early prototype).
I wonder why they didn't go for the Sultzer/Commer arrangement with one crank and rockers, cheaper and more compact maybe?

[Grumph]

What may interest neil is that the pumping pistons were double acting hence the rods had to be sealed. This was done by a combination of piston-ring type seals and lipped rubber seals. "Connecting rod sidethrust being taken by integral cross- heads". The bottom end was plain bearing, pressure lubricated hence the use of pumping cylinders.
Can't find a cutaway drawing but Irving goes into detail in Two Stroke Power Units.

[WilDun]

What may interest neil is that the pumping pistons were double acting hence the rods had to be sealed.
Can't find a cutaway drawing but Irving goes into detail in Two Stroke Power Units.

Would like to see a drawing of some sort too, but no doubt most of the available guff on it (if any) disappeared after the war.
There is a slight difference between 3000 rpm for this engine and Neil's expectation of 30,000 rpm! so maybe the sealing would need to be a little different!

[husaberg]

Anyone speak Japanese...........
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/eiichivr/68631330.htm

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/technical-stuff/1122633d1375877679-horizontally-opposed-engines-reflections-23.jpg

http://www.micapeak.com/winona/strange/wooler1-s.gif

[WilDun]

The very last pic, if I'm not mistaken/ is the Wooler motorcycle engine, made in Britain between the wars.

Here it is :- https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=wooler+motorcycle+engine&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&imgil=WhilEPvYjgmL2M%253A%253BlmXRWyfbrSjMzM%253Bh ttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.highpowermedia.com%25 252Fblog%25252F3964%25252Fthe-wooler-engine&source=iu&pf=m&fir=WhilEPvYjgmL2M%253A%252ClmXRWyfbrSjMzM%252C_&ved=0ahUKEwiNxvfJvq_KAhWFupQKHaTvBaEQyjcIMg&ei=rtKaVo23GYX10gSk35eICg&usg=__5_bmF0iXUybChqwrWljQmVVhAQk%3D#imgrc=WhilEPv YjgmL2M%3A&usg=__5_bmF0iXUybChqwrWljQmVVhAQk%3D

[husaberg]

Here is a written description
318896
Later I will do a patent search to find some drawings.
318897
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_gb&FT=D&date=19430915&CC=GB&NR=555974A&KC=A

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4287859.html
318901318902

[A classic example of being conceived in good time but born too late, the Vincent Marine Engine was originally made for an air/sea rescue role and fitted to airborne lifeboats, a complete aluminium shell which could be dropped to men in the water from an aircraft.

Vincents gave up motorcycle production during the war, concentrating on making specialist components at their Stevenage factory, one of which - for instance - was rocket fuses. Phil Vincent's agile mind was never far from a novel solution to a perceived problem and he found an Air Ministry brief for an engine in which frugality of fuel consumption was vital - and the other parameters were tough, too. It had to be capable of being started by hand, fully radio screened, waterproof (sic!), light in weight and smooth running and able to run for long periods with little maintenance. The construction had to be compact so that the hull of the lifeboat would fit cleanly against the fuselage of the aircraft that carried it and be able to withstand a 5G deceleration as it hit the water. The specification called for 15 b.h.p. at 3,000 r.p.m. from an engine that had to be able to run satisfactorily on any petrol, from 70 octane "pool" to highly leaded 120 octane aviation spirit.


Worked up from an original concept by Phil Irving in 1942, the 500cc Lifeboat Engine (as it became known) was produced with Pacific rescue missions in mind. For a fuel consumption of 50 gallons, the boat seemed to be capable of a total mileage of over 1,000 sea miles at an average speed of 5 knots compared to an Austin marine engine's best performance of 500 miles at 4 knots on the same quantity of petrol and the prototype passed its AID inspection out of the box.. However, over 800 hours of development, designing a reverse gear, electric starter etc and a vacillating Air Ministry kept Vincents busy until 1949 and that was too late, only fifty being made. Of this single batch, there are around a dozen left, this example having the s/n 44.


For the technically minded, the device weighs just 256 lbs (116 kilos) and has a watercooled inlet manifold and exhaust. It is a two-stroke cycle, twin crankshaft opposed six, the pistons moving inwards to form a common
combustion space, thus, this six has three bores. The centre bore of the three provides compressed mixture for the outer two cylinders, the mixture not being compressed in the crankcase as in normal two strokes. The pumping
cylinders have cross heads like a steam engine, allowing straight, round section connecting rods to be sealed from the crankcase with gland seals. The mixture is circulated both "above" and "below" the pumping pistons, transferring to one set of power pistons on the inward stroke and to the other set on the outward stroke, thus making best use of the capacity available. The inlet charge must be well and truly mixed by the time it gets squashed and ignited!

A great advantage of this layout is that the port timings of the pistons on one crankshaft can be varied in relation to those on the other crankshaft. One pair of pistons control the transfer ports and the other the inlet ports, so the port timing can be readily varied to give the best results. As the gas moves in only one direction, it is called a Uniflow engine. In a conventional two-stroke, the same piston has to control both transfer and exhaust. This system may be simple, but port timings will always be a poor compromise compared to that on a two crank system and very wasteful of fuel, especially at full load or idle, ask any Petter M type owner! The development of the Lifeboat Engine progressed to a stage where the fuel consumption became extremely good even by four-stroke standards.

Looking nothing like an engine, the lumpy rectangular thing might be anything at all. Only the two spark plugs sticking up out of the block and the brass-bodied Amal carb give it away.
Wearing its original coat of Admiralty grey paint, the author's unit in these pictures is in pretty good condition, somewhat chipped and worn as one might expect in something which has been around for over fifty years. The
only things that are missing are the ancillaries cover that covers the starter, generator and magneto and the recoil starter that mounts at one end and contains a huge clock spring. No-one has these items out there, I suppose?
At the time of writing in August 2002, the engine has only been run briefly in order to check it out, prior to being fitted with tanks and a cooling system.

Footnotes:-
The marine engine was doubled up into a flat six twelve piston engine intended to drive a 10Kva generator after the war. It was unsuccessful due to the impossibility of maintaining square faces during the machining of the
huge and complex crankcase casting. It went through very considerable development, but it was just too complicated for its own good. There was a description of this in issue No: 156 of Stationary Engine Magazine for February 1987.

Here is some of the earlier crankless engines Irving was involved with
http://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/articles/3625


the 500 uniflow
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.rec.engines.stationary/2010-02/msg00004.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_lifeboat_engine
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uk.rec.engines.stationary/oCxtBa_4E4w

funny enough this leads to some other patents
including a Honda one for a stratified charge
https://www.google.com/patents/US3916851

[tjbw]

The very last pic, if I'm not mistaken/ is the Woolmer motorcycle engine, made in Britain between the wars.

Here it is :- https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=wooler+motorcycle+engine&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&imgil=WhilEPvYjgmL2M%253A%253BlmXRWyfbrSjMzM%253Bh ttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.highpowermedia.com%25 252Fblog%25252F3964%25252Fthe-wooler-engine&source=iu&pf=m&fir=WhilEPvYjgmL2M%253A%252ClmXRWyfbrSjMzM%252C_&ved=0ahUKEwiNxvfJvq_KAhWFupQKHaTvBaEQyjcIMg&ei=rtKaVo23GYX10gSk35eICg&usg=__5_bmF0iXUybChqwrWljQmVVhAQk%3D#imgrc=WhilEPv YjgmL2M%3A&usg=__5_bmF0iXUybChqwrWljQmVVhAQk%3D

I'll try to get photos of that Wooler engine next week.

Here's a different Wooler, with some unusual innovations!
Did I hear "the tubular frame forms the exhaust"?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D6j_NjhYGZMc&ved=0ahUKEwjFi4XEv6_KAhWHaRQKHTIODusQtwIIHjAB&usg=AFQjCNEsu2lMLXqQ2Mtv3RN1tenq0LnWXw&sig2=TAAdGYBg9UL45zcMwKIw0Q

[tjbw]

Here is a written description
318896
Later I will do a patent search to find some drawings.
318897
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_gb&FT=D&date=19430915&CC=GB&NR=555974A&KC=A



There are a few more drawings in the Vincent patent. They show the crankshafts connected by gears, however it seems that the production engines used a chain.

[ken seeber]

Some people will do anything for a good power to weight ratio. Sort of a refined Britten? :no:

318911

[Grumph]

Some people will do anything for a good power to weight ratio. Sort of a refined Britten? :no:


Back in the day, I built a carrying frame for our spare GSXR1100 engine which was nicer than that...
I assume fuel pressure is achieved by the rider sitting on the tank and squeezing it ? Or does he wear it ?

[Frits Overmars]

Seeing the Vincent and Wooler engines makes me realize once more: keep it simple or go belly-up. It's a miracle the british motorcycle industry survived as long as it did. If only they had applied their glorious ideas to two-strokes, they would have saved 60 % on parts count alone.
318916

You cannot deny the Brits a sense of humor though (at 1:06 in their own clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_NjhYGZMc&app=desktop )
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_NjhYGZMc&app=desktop):)"The starter is quite revolutionary: it worked the first time".

318917

[tjbw]

Another Vincent, a rotary triple!

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/10/09/vincent-rotary/

[Niels Abildgaard]

Some thinking for a HCCI genset here:

http://archive.is/s7gTY

http://chevy57.free.fr/FORUM/junkers_two-stroke_crosshead.gif

[tjbw]

Seeing the Vincent and Wooler engines makes me realize once more: keep it simple or go belly-up. It's a miracle the british motorcycle industry survived as long as it did. If only they had applied their glorious ideas to two-strokes, they would have saved 60 % on parts count alone.
318916

You cannot deny the Brits a sense of humor though (at 1:06 in their own clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_NjhYGZMc&app=desktop )
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_NjhYGZMc&app=desktop):)"The starter is quite revolutionary: it worked the first time".

318917

Oh no, Frits, you rub salt in the wounds, with a Torrey Canyon cartoon!

[Frits Overmars]

Oh no, Frits, you rub salt in the wounds, with a Torrey Canyon cartoon!I could rename it Amoco Cadiz or Exxon Valdez if that would make you feel any better :devil2:.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/24/torrey-canyon-oil-spill-deepwater-bp

[tjbw]

I could rename it Amoco Cadiz or Exxon Valdez if that would make you feel any better :devil2:.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/24/torrey-canyon-oil-spill-deepwater-bp

I fixed it :devil2:.

[J.A.W.]

An interesting big aero V16.. www.enginehistory.org/Museum/chrysler.shtml

[tjbw]

An interesting big aero V16.. www.enginehistory.org/Museum/chrysler.shtml

Broken link, is this the correct one?

http://www.enginehistory.org/Museums/chrysler.shtml

[J.A.W.]

Broken link, is this the correct one?

http://www.enginehistory.org/Museums/chrysler.shtml

Yeah, ta..
I was just about to edit it, but got a bit side-tracked by the data - which it diverted to..

[WilDun]

You cannot deny the Brits a sense of humor though

Frits,
I loved my 600 "Torrey Canyon", I've had 20 other bikes but still have a hankering for that one!
It stuck to the road like glue and I leaned it over to the limit but never once dropped it (despite the oil on the back tyre) :laugh: