Oddball engines and prototypes [Archive] - Page 4

WilDun

19th January 2016, 07:04

I loved the sound of a friend's even-firing Triumph Bonneville
the limit was about five degrees from the vertical.

Ah, but I never had a Triumph, mine was a Norton Dominator 99 - much better handling than a Triumph! and definitely a step up from my little 250 Suzuki (which I also loved) - despite the shitty handling my little Suzuki could thrash a lot of them on our short street circuits, however, I tended to fall off when leading! (in fact I excelled at it)!

Yes the sound of an even firing twin like all the British big twins, BMW etc. did sound quite pleasant, - even the old Bradford vans, 2cv's etc sounded fine too!
Then again, I did like the sound of the 180deg parallel twin Hondas with their distinctive sound, while not as pleasant did get my blood racing too, - especially the 125 racers.
Four strokes do have good qualities too, (some)!

WilDun

23rd January 2016, 10:15

This thread needs another 'kick in the ass' (or is it 'arse') - all probably due to the Ryger sensation in ESE - I sure hope that the Ryger doesn't also end up in this thread as an 'oddball prototype'! :no:

On the foundry thread there was mention of Hydrogen being used as a fuel and Flettner seems to be interested in that, but it is a vast subject and could probably be talked about here (as this thread is not under the "Bucket" umbrella), and maybe leave more room on the other thread for actual projects which are ongoing ( I don't want to hijack that other thread of course ie "The Bucket Foundry").

I remember getting some plans for 'on car' hydrogen generators about 10 years ago, which seem to be lost at the moment - this could possibly eliminate some of the problems (and dangers) associated with storing compressed hydrogen.

We had a guy here in NZ called Archie Blue (from Nelson - or was it ChCh?) who actually made it all work but sold his ideas to a big company - of course they were filed away and never used! (don't think it was a hoax, it seems to have actually worked on his old Morris 1100) - unless someone here knows different!

I think that at least some of his ideas are now available ie if you know where to look. and I believe that there are a few ideas around which have been built on Archie's lead - no doubt someone will know and no doubt some more info will come to light!

UPDATE
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/supressed_inventions/suppressed_inventions41.htm

J.A.W.

23rd January 2016, 16:27

Manolis has a fecund mind for engineering solutions & offer improvements in locomotion, as we know it..

www.pattakon.com/pattakonTilting.htm

Frits Overmars

24th January 2016, 00:37

On the foundry thread there was mention of Hydrogen being used as a fuel... I remember getting some plans for 'on car' hydrogen generators about 10 years ago, which seem to be lost at the moment - this could possibly eliminate some of the problems (and dangers) associated with storing compressed hydrogen.My thoughts exactly: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130870009#post1130870009

We had a guy here in NZ called Archie Blue: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/supressed_inventions/suppressed_inventions41.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/supressed_inventions/suppressed_inventions41.htm)I liked the read, Will. But extracting hydrogen from water? Sure, it can be done but I find it difficult to imagine that extracting it will cost less energy than can be generated by burning it again (I use the word burning here in its broadest sense, which includes oxidizing it in a fuel cell).

The latest idea seems to be using ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen carrier. It's still a gas, but not nearly as fuzzy about temperature and pressure as hydrogen. And unlike hydrocarbons it is inflammable.

WilDun

24th January 2016, 07:24

My thoughts exactly: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130870009#post1130870009

I liked the read, Will. But extracting hydrogen from water? Sure, it can be done but I find it difficult to imagine that extracting it will cost less energy than can be generated by burning it again (I use the word burning here in its broadest sense, which includes oxidizing it in a fuel cell).

The latest idea seems to be using ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen carrier. It's still a gas, but not nearly as fuzzy about temperature and pressure as hydrogen. And unlike hydrocarbons it is inflammable.

Yes Frits,
It's like the perpetual motion thing, it intrigues people and keeps them occupied - the thought must have been put there to keep them from planning crime, wars etc!

Not an easy thing to do in the sense that the gains don't seem to outweigh the losses quite enough.
Your idea about using hydrocarbons to produce hydrogen for use in fuel cells is a good idea - electric motors are the way to go I reckon, in which case, I wouldn't be too happy if I happened to be a gearbox manufacturer.

Then of course the whole thing is weighed down by conspiracy theorists and other neurotics, but even if all the stories about the oil companies were true, I have often thought that if everything suddenly changed, it would set the whole world economic system on its ear and the world would be in chaos!

I haven't been studying it much of late but a more stable carrier like ammonia might be an an answer but have you ever had a decent whiff of ammonia? I have, from a nitriding plant and it wasn't funny!
I think that the hydrogen fuel thing stands more of a chance than perpetual motion, but I would rather spend my time trying to solve these problems than doing things like the Rubik Cube or Chinese puzzles! :laugh:

Frits Overmars

24th January 2016, 08:05

a more stable carrier like ammonia might be an an answer but have you ever had a decent whiff of ammonia? I have, from a nitriding plant and it wasn't funny!I'll do you one better - a lot better. I survived a sniff of home-made Cl2 - just. Ammonia stinks; chlorine kills if you're a bit less lucky than I was.

WilDun

24th January 2016, 14:38

I'll do you one better - a lot better. I survived a sniff of home-made Cl2 - just. Ammonia stinks; chlorine kills if you're a bit less lucky than I was.

Yes, just takes one slip to remove us from this earth forever (can't reset, as the younger generation tends to believe!).

J.A.W.

24th January 2016, 15:31

Yes, just takes one slip to remove us from this earth forever (can't reset, as the younger generation tends to believe!).

What are you on about, now W-D?

AFAIR, all who have left the Earth have returned again ( albeit, for sure, some were toast)..

Belief aint got nothin' to do with it..

Back on subject though..
- I do note that a group of young NASA engineers have recently resurrected one of those mighty moon rocket Saturn V/F1 mills..

tjbw

30th January 2016, 08:02

Some thinking for a HCCI genset here:

http://archive.is/s7gTY

http://chevy57.free.fr/FORUM/junkers_two-stroke_crosshead.gif

Niels, do you have more information, including photos, on the Junkerator, e.g. cost of comparison v mechanical drive?

Niels Abildgaard

31st January 2016, 15:37

Niels, do you have more information, including photos, on the Junkerator, e.g. cost of comparison v mechanical drive?

Not really.
What You see in the two links are just phantasies.
But the thinking gave a nice feeling just like riding my MZ and by far not so dangerous.
Wife and kids apreciated that.

tjbw

31st January 2016, 22:53

Not really.
What You see in the two links are just phantasies.
But the thinking gave a nice feeling just like riding my MZ and by far not so dangerous.
Wife and kids apreciated that.

But the two Honda generators tied together wasn't a fantasy!

Did you, or your friend, try to adjust the timing of the exhaust?

Niels Abildgaard

1st February 2016, 04:46

But the two Honda generators tied together wasn't a fantasy!

Did you, or your friend, try to adjust the timing of the exhaust?

The Honda twin was just made to test if one combustion chamber seing two schnuerle scavenged AC generators would cooperate without mechanical connection between cranks.It was not uniflow scavenged so changin exhaust timing would have served no purpose.
My three friends did not believe it would be able to start unaided and made a toothed belt that fell off when a handle was released.I was not there and they tried it and it ran nicely and hard first time.They used a hairdryer as electrical load.I came over next day and accidently cut the belt and we then decided to try without.The generators were 8 poles and could lock on each other in 4 positions 90 degree appart.First try was the lucky one and it ran for 20 seconds or so with the hairdryer on and of.The lady of the house came down and said that her shirts would smell off cheap two stroke.
It never ran again and when my wife died it was thrown out.Being a genius was not really important anymore.

tjbw

1st February 2016, 10:13

The Honda twin was just made to test if one combustion chamber seing two schnuerle scavenged AC generators would cooperate without mechanical connection between cranks.It was not uniflow scavenged so changin exhaust timing would have served no purpose.
My three friends did not believe it would be able to start unaided and made a toothed belt that fell off when a handle was released.I was not there and they tried it and it ran nicely and hard first time.They used a hairdryer as electrical load.I came over next day and accidently cut the belt and we then decided to try without.The generators were 8 poles and could lock on each other in 4 positions 90 degree appart.First try was the lucky one and it ran for 20 seconds or so with the hairdryer on and of.The lady of the house came down and said that her shirts would smell off cheap two stroke.
It never ran again and when my wife died it was thrown out.Being a genius was not really important anymore.

Niels, I'm very sorry to hear about your wife.

Was that engine configuration unique? I didn't see opposed piston schnuerle before!

319209 It certainly deserves to be viewed in this topic :)

Niels Abildgaard

1st February 2016, 19:43

Niels, I'm very sorry to hear about your wife.

Was that engine configuration unique? I didn't see opposed piston schnuerle before!

319209 It certainly deserves to be viewed in this topic :)

Thank You.

It was unique and affordable .
Its real claim to fame was being worlds first AC synchronized twin crank opposed piston engine.
I have some better pictures somewhere and will post links here.

http://i.imgur.com/AxuRVPY.jpg

Next step would have been to make a real Junkers cylinder and test fuel consumption.

Flettner

4th February 2016, 19:17

gjm

4th February 2016, 20:44

tjbw

5th February 2016, 03:41

I think this is a new one - the Duray U16. Entered in the 1931 Indy 500 this was/is a supercharged 16-cylinder 2-stroke. No idea what the power output was, but it was, sadly, a failure despite being very fast and making (a very important) wonderful noise.

The 16 cylinders formed 8 side-by-side pairs, each pair sharing a combustion chamber and crankshaft journal. Yup, 16 cylinders with 8 chambers and 8 crank throws.
It was first patented in 1912 and called the Zoller (after engineer Arnold Zoller) two-stroke. More recently this layout has been called a split-single or “twingle” and used European motorbikes made by DKW, Puch and more, well into the 1960s. (See - even a motorbiking relevance!)

http://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/2016/01/30/a-most-remarkable-engine-the-duray-u16/

That was some engine, too bad they didn't continue development.

I had thought the split twins emerged in 1930s with Puch and DKW, then recently I saw a much earlier engine on www. Looking for it just now I found that Garelli is widely credited with the first split single design in 1912, didn't see any Garelli photos or patent, though I did find an 1910 patent by Lucas!

The Lucas engine was used in the "Valveless" car, Will's probably had a spin in one ;)

In the Lucas patent it states "This invention relates to improvements in the details of engines of the well known type having two cylinders placed side by side and opening into combustion and crank chambers common to both, the pistons in the cylinders operatin cranks on two parallel crank shafts which are geared together" So it seems the first split-single was prior to 1909!

Lucas engine: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=952706A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=19100322&DB=&&locale=en_EP

DKW employed Zoller in 1930s, one of his innovations was the articulated conrod.

Niels Abildgaard

5th February 2016, 05:46

https://youtu.be/BPr694nlUKE
https://youtu.be/uiXsPkP9jvw

Niels, I understand you are interested in Uniflow engines, see the youtube links. This is a crankcase feed uniflow twostroke.
Although this one's cranks were joined by gears.

Hello Neil

Thank You for the videos.
I found another version with different pictures of my journey to gearless junkers

http://archive.is/zHnXJ

The one shown before is here

http://archive.is/s7gTY

I do not know how to unite it here.

My next phantasy is still uniflow and gearless but not Junkers

http://i.imgur.com/SOqAT4f.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n36caso.jpg

WilDun

5th February 2016, 10:10

That was some engine, too bad they didn't continue development.
I did find an 1910 patent by Lucas!
The Lucas engine was used in the "Valveless" car, Will's probably had a spin in one ;)

Ha Ha, no - that was my grandfather! :laugh:
I've really got to change people's perception of my age!

F5 Dave

5th February 2016, 19:27

Indeed, you're quit spritly for a 47yr old.

WilDun

5th February 2016, 20:53

Indeed, you're quit spritly for a 47yr old.

That's more like it! and I can still get a leg over, unfortunately not over the seat of a racing bike! :laugh:

ken seeber

10th February 2016, 23:49

That's more like it! and I can still get a leg over :laugh:

You willy have to be careful of your willy, Willy. :laugh:

Split singles. Don't forget the Trojan car engine of the 1920s. This was a 4 cyl or double split single. Conceived around 1912 or so. Sounds like the split single was the flavour of the decade. This might have been the Lucas Valveless engine. Gotta give the poms a mention every now and then.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=trojan+car+engine&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7zaPxju3KAhUFmJQKHRbQD7UQsAQIIg&biw=1440&bih=803

gjm

11th February 2016, 07:52

I have a new hero.

John Walter Christie.

In 1907 he finished the build of a front wheel drive car powered by a 20-litre V4 engine. It was a 'square' engine with 7.25" bore and stroke, and had 8 atmospherically-operated inlet valves per cylinder and one mechanically operated exhaust valve.

The crankshaft used spur gears and UJs to drive the front wheels directly, via an exposed gear transmission.

Top speed was around 120mph - 195km/h.

https://crankhandleblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/schermafbeelding-2015-06-13-om-23-18-57.jpg

The steering column runs through the radiator.

He also designed suspension systems for WW2 tanks.

tjbw

11th February 2016, 08:08

tjbw

11th February 2016, 09:38

You willy have to be careful of your willy, Willy. :laugh:

Split singles. Don't forget the Trojan car engine of the 1920s. This was a 4 cyl or double split single. Conceived around 1912 or so. Sounds like the split single was the flavour of the decade. This might have been the Lucas Valveless engine. Gotta give the poms a mention every now and then.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=trojan+car+engine&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7zaPxju3KAhUFmJQKHRbQD7UQsAQIIg&biw=1440&bih=803

The 1920s Trojan split single featured one V shaped conrod for each pair of pistons, whereas the Lucas engine featured separate conrod and big end for each piston. Link to drawing of Lucas engine is in message #768, just up the page, and more info on the Trojan engines here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/ot-unusual-engine-1-trojan-115778/

WilDun

11th February 2016, 22:36

The 1920s Trojan split single featured one V shaped conrod for each pair of pistons, whereas the Lucas engine featured separate conrod and big end for each piston.

I can actually remember seeing a Puch split single motorcycle engine and I think that the main conrod had a lug attached for a link rod (similar idea to the radial aircraft engines except that in their case, the master rod carries multiple link rods).

WilDun

11th February 2016, 23:05

You willy have to be careful of your willy, Willy. :laugh:

Split singles. Don't forget the Trojan car engine of the 1920s. This was a 4 cyl or double split single.

Don't worry Ken, I didn't actually mention how often! - bit like the 30k and 70 bhp rpm of the Ryger really! :laugh:

Think the Trojan was an offshoot of the Ricardo Dolphin engine, and did some sterling work for a very long time.

Frits Overmars

11th February 2016, 23:22

I can actually remember seeing a Puch split single motorcycleI can actually remember riding a Puch split single. Or, to be completely honest, I can remember sitting on the tank while my father rode it. Must have been about 1955.
Even then it already had two filler caps on the tank: one for petrol; one for oil.
319472

Which reminds me of one of the many modifications my dad performed on the bike. You'll notice that on the standard bike in the above picture the gap between the front tire and the underside of the mudguard is bigger than the gap at the top. My dad reversed that situation after he caught a hare between the tire and the mudguard :facepalm:.

WilDun

12th February 2016, 07:16

I can actually remember riding a Puch split single. Or, to be completely honest, I can remember sitting on the tank while my father rode it.
My dad reversed that situation after he caught a hare between the tire and the mudguard :facepalm:.

In New Zealand it would probably be a Possum!
That is one great looking bike - the one I saw was in a dismantled condition in the early sixties and didn't look quite as good.

Meanwhile I have decided to go on to 3 wheels .....Voila:
-319475
319476

Talk about the Enigma Machine! or a Heath Robinson (for real)! - something appealing about it though ........Je ne sais quois.
.................................................. ..............................
EDIT This is the message that is associated with the photos:-

Awesome trike, a totally practical vehicle with many uses.
Pick the kids up from school, go get the groceries, drag race boy racers in souped up jap four bangers and do it all in style!

A few facts about this trike.*
1. It holds the top lap time for the Isle of Man circuit, however it was disqualified for having too many wheels and the title was given to John McGuiness.
2. It is made from parts of the original Ford interceptor from the first mad max film
3. It was supposed to feature as the Delorian in the back to the future films, but during filming Michael J Fox fell off twice, got scared and refused to ride it anymore.

DISCLAIMER
All the above facts are made up, this thing is as dodgy as Kim.Com. Its structural integrity is as questionable as Tom cruise's sexuality. (Pieces occasionally fall off, but so far it still goes!)
It gets speed wobbles if you go faster than a brisk walking pace, the brakes will stop it after a while, as long as you are facing uphill.
It is totally illegal to ride on the road, but let's face it, the cops will be too busy laughing to give you a ticket!
Buy it, and you probably won't regret it or get any stick from the missus... But no promises.

Frits Overmars

12th February 2016, 09:41

Talk about the Enigma Machine!Enigma is good! Trying to figure out its frame construction gave me almost as much of a headache as this Ikea drawing:
319477

tjbw

12th February 2016, 09:50

Enigma is good! Trying to figure out its frame construction gave me almost as much of a headache as this Ikea drawing:
319477

Brilliant, so many optical illusions. There are pi-3 nuts missing!

WilDun

12th February 2016, 11:33

Enigma is good! Trying to figure out its frame construction gave me almost as much of a headache as this Ikea drawing:

Think I'll try and make one of those in my workshop ......... maybe tomorrow ....

Frits Overmars

12th February 2016, 23:38

Think I'll try and make one of those in my workshop ......... maybe tomorrow ....I'd like a handful of those ambihelical hexnuts :rolleyes:.

Grumph

13th February 2016, 05:58

Enigma is good! Trying to figure out its frame construction gave me almost as much of a headache as this Ikea drawing:

My engineering trade drawing teacher loved giving us things like that to draw as a comprehension test.

I'd like a handful of those ambihelical hexnuts :rolleyes:.

You draw one, Neil will make it, LOL....

WilDun

13th February 2016, 06:43

My engineering trade drawing teacher loved giving us things like that to draw as a comprehension test.
You draw one, Neil will make it, LOL....

I remember when teaching apprentices (at work) one of the things they had to learn was how to sharpen drills etc.
When they had become reasonably proficient I gave them a few left hand drills mixed in with the rest and watched them try to sharpen them.
They stood there scratching their heads, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Some twigged faster than others - it was good entertainment!

Muciek

14th February 2016, 04:25

More (?) info on CITS engine some pdf's and other documents
http://www.2taktforumat.com/t397f117-CITS-Takt-Motor-Basil-van-Rooyen-Australien.html#msg914

WilDun

14th February 2016, 07:51

Looks like he is a real trier! - I had just assumed (because of the name) that he is Dutch and I hadn't considered that he might be South African. - Now he's an Aussie!

He certainly has packed a lot of experiences into his life, but not having followed the car racing around that period, I can't remember his name although it seems he was right up there!

Think I first saw his two stroke idea about 3 years ago - it seems to be up and running now and of course he is not hampered by racing rules etc. so he's really got a free hand.
I'd say that the stigma against the two stroke will be a hard nut to crack and to break into the prejudiced four stroke dominated automotive market will be difficult, to say the least!
Maybe the cost will be a redeeming factor here.

I hope the two stroke is going to make a comeback with projects like this.

Flettner

17th February 2016, 21:04

Will, good to see you up and running again. Crank that workshop up!
I've also spent a lot of my working life in development, just had to get into the CNC's when I started building these aviation gearboxes, way too slow on the manual mill (and lathe) but they (CNC's) sure took some getting used to! Having never even seen one apart from Emex shows.
I remember saying to my wife (the same one that had rubber stamped the bank loan) some months after purchacing my first one, "what the hell have I done?" spent all our money on a big cast iron boat anchor. We don't even have a boat to anchor to it she said:( Yes, much frowning! But after getting a friend of mine out to help for a few weekends, we were away, much to my relief (and the wife's).
We use off line programing with Gibbs Cam, If that means anything? Funny thing though, in the weekends when I'm doing my stuff I usually use the manual machines still, I guess it's what you get used to.

WilDun

19th February 2016, 21:57

Will, good to see you up and running again. Crank that workshop up!
We use off line programing with Gibbs Cam, If that means anything? Funny thing though, in the weekends when I'm doing my stuff I usually use the manual machines still, I guess it's what you get used to.

Thanks Neil,
First time in a few months I spent all day in my extremely cluttered workshop but I enjoyed it very much - got so much to do making accessories for my lathe etc.
Tomorrow I might start on the foundry stuff too and have it all up and running soon (before the bad weather sets in), but I think I'm going to have to pace myself.

I'm very interested in CNC of course and it's essential for survival these days, but in my case, I think that time is of the essence and it might be best to stick to the manual stuff and enjoy what I have for as long as I can.

I have a friend who owns a gearcutting shop with all the cutting edge machinery (and older stuff too) who is an avid experimenter like yourself, so if I need CNC work done - no problem.

tjbw

3rd May 2016, 23:02

The Red Baron is a souped up bike that had its engine pulled out and replaced with a Rotec Radial R3600, which is a 150-horsepower, nine-cylinder engine.

Nice project, might benefit from more work on suspension though.

http://www.ohgizmo.com/2013/05/22/king-of-all-motorcycles-red-baron-bike-is-powered-by-an-airplane-engine/

WilDun

10th May 2016, 21:50

Haven't been too good healthwise for some time and hadn't even noticed that there had been a lot of stuff posted.

Looks like a seriously rich enthusiast - guess that engine wouldn't be cheap!
Pity he couldn't make use of the natural shape of the "round" engine so it could be leaned, but I guess the diameter is just a bit too big.

Personally I'd rather see the engine on an aircraft that I had built myself!

husaberg

10th May 2016, 22:11

Haven't been too good healthwise for some time and hadn't even noticed that there had been a lot of stuff posted.

Welcome back Will
I seen this today, I haven't had a chance to look it over yet.
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/riley2.jpg

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC.htm
It looks like a Swashplate crank like some hydraulic pumps have

WilDun

11th May 2016, 07:57

tjbw

11th May 2016, 09:58

It's a wobble plate axial engine (as opposed to the swashplate hydraulic motors and pumps). The only reasonably successful example was one made for Bristol Tramways between the world wars.
However, the Duke engine being developed just a few kms from where I live in Auckland has improved the concept to where it's just about ready for production, but the next step is to make it appealing to manufacturers as a viable alternative to our well known engines, a very tough nut to crack.
We'll see what happens, but trying to compete in the well established conventional piston engine market would be a challenge! - does look promising though, it would look good on a bike and would be a very neat package.
Then again, remember what happened with the Wankel and of course there's the Tesla etc. to compete with now! - there won't be any easy solutions, no instant breakthroughs these days!

http://www.dukeengines.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19kn3drdFU

Good to see you back Will.

I was surprised to find that John DeLorean, the well known County Antrim car builder, patented a swashplate engine in 1985. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4557232.pdf

Some of his handwritten notes from 1980 on axial engine design can be found here:

http://jalopnik.com/deloreans-next-radical-idea-was-this-never-before-seen-1484018531/1484290943

Some interesting ideas in there, including laser ignition, ceramic block, variable compression, energy recovery, and rotary valves.

F5 Dave

11th May 2016, 12:38

Gosh. Wonder where those ideas originally germinated? Cough. Chapman. Cough. Lotus.

WilDun

11th May 2016, 15:01

Good to see you back Will.

I was surprised to find that John DeLorean, the well known County Antrim car builder, patented a swashplate engine in 1985. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4557232.pdf

Some of his handwritten notes from 1980 on axial engine design can be found here:

http://jalopnik.com/deloreans-next-radical-idea-was-this-never-before-seen-1484018531/1484290943

Some interesting ideas in there, including laser ignition, ceramic block, variable compression, energy recovery, and rotary valves.

Thanks guys, not quite back yet but getting there!

However I don't think John De Lorean was a county Antrim man! (I might add that Dr. Gordon Blair who did some important development work for various engine makers actually was from Co Antrim).
De Lorean was a New Yorker, but he did have a factory in a Belfast (which is partly in Co Antrim I guess). However, he was there to take advantage of the generous British incentives to get industry back on track in Belfast also to piss off General Motors where he previously had had a very good job (and was possibly sacked?).
He was running low on funds and resorted to some messy business practices which finally brought him down.

As for the swashplate/cam track/ wobble plate axial engines, there were quite a few of them being developed at various times, one of them being a similar "cam track" version as on one of the links you posted. This is possibly actually in production as an aircraft engine in USA but which, although actually a certified aircraft engine, hasn't really met with any resounding success as yet!
These axial piston engines have always intrigued me though, as they could be a very neat and tidy answer, ie if they could solve all the valve problems they tend to have.
As I have said before, the old tried and true stuff is still doing a sterling job and to change the course of something so entrenched would be a massive undertaking.

That's what I reckon anyway :rolleyes:

Grumph

11th May 2016, 19:23

Gosh. Wonder where those ideas originally germinated? Cough. Chapman. Cough. Lotus.

Doubt it. Remember he'd been very high up in GM...An old guy here, whose rolling road we used to use, now dead, did two years at the experimental engine division of Chev post his time in the Can- Am series. He told of weekly brainstorming sessions where anything could be discussed - and top management often attended....
There was apparently an understanding that if it was worth going ahead with, GM would patent it. He reckoned a hell of a lot never got patented.

F5 Dave

11th May 2016, 19:59

Fair call. Just figured with the diversion of money flowing to Lotus from DeLorean co. that some brain matter transfer would have occurred the other way. Lotus later played with rotary valves. Ahh I don't really know shit about car stuff, just the various docos on TV that everyone has no doubt seen.

tjbw

13th May 2016, 14:51

Thanks guys, not quite back yet but getting there!

However I don't think John De Lorean was a county Antrim man! (I might add that Dr. Gordon Blair who did some important development work for various engine makers actually was from Co Antrim).
De Lorean was a New Yorker, but he did have a factory in a Belfast (which is partly in Co Antrim I guess). However, he was there to take advantage of the generous British incentives to get industry back on track in Belfast also to piss off General Motors where he previously had had a very good job (and was possibly sacked?).
He was running low on funds and resorted to some messy business practices which finally brought him down.

As for the swashplate/cam track/ wobble plate axial engines, there were quite a few of them being developed at various times, one of them being a similar "cam track" version as on one of the links you posted. This is possibly actually in production as an aircraft engine in USA but which, although actually a certified aircraft engine, hasn't really met with any resounding success as yet!
These axial piston engines have always intrigued me though, as they could be a very neat and tidy answer, ie if they could solve all the valve problems they tend to have.
As I have said before, the old tried and true stuff is still doing a sterling job and to change the course of something so entrenched would be a massive undertaking.

That's what I reckon anyway :rolleyes:

Yes, Blair was from Larne, and Delorean built the cars at Dunmurry, County Antrim.

I'm wondering if a swashplate engine is more efficient at longer strokes (higher plate angle).

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design ;)

Ocean1

13th May 2016, 16:28

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design ;)

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintage-antique-projects/1896-roper-steam-engine-2/

And I love it. :laugh:

husaberg

13th May 2016, 18:00

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintage-antique-projects/1896-roper-steam-engine-2/

And I love it. :laugh:

His excelsior is pretty cool as well.
Our own Grumph gets a mention on the Macchi pages as well

Flettner

13th May 2016, 18:22

Grumph

13th May 2016, 19:34

His excelsior is pretty cool as well.
Our own Grumph gets a mention on the Macchi pages as well

I used to be in fairly regular contact with him - even sold him a frame.
Talking to him once I found he was doing internal splining by hand with a single point tool in a mill...I told him how to make a broach....
He obviously doesn't maintain his website, I asked to be taken off the contacts list some time back.

tjbw

13th May 2016, 20:07

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintage-antique-projects/1896-roper-steam-engine-2/

And I love it. :laugh:

Wowww, I love steam, love that project. The complete website is great.

WilDun

13th May 2016, 21:51

Yes, Blair was from Larne, and Delorean built the cars at Dunmurry, County Antrim.

I'm wondering if a swashplate engine is more efficient at longer strokes (higher plate angle).

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design ;)

Yes some possibilities there but I think I would go for a wobble plate motor, the swashplate would not be at all efficient at higher revs because of high surface and rubbing speeds - lubrication might cause problems, good in a hydraulic pump or motor though!

Yes, but Dunmurry is really Belfast, much like Glengormley etc. etc. - a suburb ...... Oh and don't forget that Jonathan Rea came originally from Larne!

tjbw

13th May 2016, 22:16

Yes some possibilities there but I think I would go for a wobble plate motor, the swashplate would not be at all efficient at higher revs because of high surface and rubbing speeds - lubrication might cause problems, good in a hydraulic pump or motor though!

Yes, but Dunmurry is really Belfast, much like Glengormley etc. etc. - a suburb ...... Oh and don't forget that Jonathan Rea came originally from Larne!

Yes, swashplate looks better for pumps. DeLorean mentioned wobble plate in his notes, but the sketches show swashplates.

All of Belfast which is north of the Lagan is in County Antrim. I heard that the Antrim boundary has been extended to include all or part of Belfast which is south of the Lagan and was previously in County Down!

WilDun

14th May 2016, 10:41

OCEAN,
Sorry to sidetrack your contribution, just trying to clear up a few things about my old stomping ground (Co Antrim)!

Way back, I was also very impressed by the elbow type engines you mentioned - d'you reckon they could benefit from having the "barrels" connected by a bevel gear just to keep them honest?
Sliding exhaust valves of various types are always a problem although Duke engines seem to have managed to get them to work satisfactorily - maybe also use the bevels as a power transmission takeoff point as well?

crbbt

16th May 2016, 15:13

quick question.

70 degree V2 2 stroke; was this done on the Suzuki RGV and other (maybe?) 250 gp bikes for any reason other than packaging?

husaberg

16th May 2016, 15:44

quick question.

70 degree V2 2 stroke; was this done on the Suzuki RGV and other (maybe?) 250 gp bikes for any reason other than packaging?

I thought of this afterwards
This is my Fav Narrow angle V set up the Derbi 125.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=251892&d=1322894560

Only packaging as far as I know, for the most part it wasn't deemed necessary to deviate from the 90 degree.Which offered perfect primary balance.
exceptions I can think up are Honda did a narrower angle on the later NSR250 (I think )of around 75 degree and possibly maybe in the twin crank special NSR250 as well
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=311449&d=1430798828

The V4 were a different story Yamaha were all over the place re v angle Suzuki tried multiple angles as well. Cagiva followed Yamaha lead.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc/page7
Honda keep to a wide angle over 90 degrees (112deg I think)as they had more room between the cylinders with the single crank.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4837
there is plenty of stuff on here scroll through for articles
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4848
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4842
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4953
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4953
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4937
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4845
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4938

nadroj

16th May 2016, 16:00

Wanganui 2012

crbbt

16th May 2016, 16:20

husaberg

16th May 2016, 16:37

Thanks Husa!

I was under the impression that opening up the angle on the V4's was for carb fitment.

and on a counter rotating twin crank (with the cylinders firing at the same time) was just what ever mood the designer was in with maybe some thought towards the resultant force and its magnitude

Carb and airbox room is my understanding, as the cylinders are closer in the twin cranks but the single crank has more room.
I seen a pic the other day that suggests to me, the Yams only actually breathed through 4 petals of the 6 petal reeds.

Frits Overmars

17th May 2016, 00:40

This is my Fav Narrow angle V set up the Derbi 125.
321642
That's not a V-engine at all Husa; it's two engines sharing a common gearbox, chassis and rider. If there's more than one crankshaft, it's more than one engine :p.
By the way, if you like that Derbi so much, you must also like its spitting image, the 125 cc aircooled Jawa twin. I wonder which one was first. I tried to find a picture of it, but no luck.

Grumph

17th May 2016, 05:53

The Jawa was one of several projects the factory had going in '66 - appearing in '67. The 250 single production racer,250 parallel twin,revised 350 twin, 350 version of the V4 - and the 125 v twin.
First information on the 125 was released in April '67.
At Derbi, race chief Tombas constructed an "unofficial" prototype 125 V twin in 1967.

From Mick Walker's Classic European Motorcycles....

There are a couple of good pics of the Jawa too, neater than the Derbi IMO. I'll put them up when i have more time. Later today i hope.

Grumph

17th May 2016, 09:54

Pic as promised.
I first saw this book - a $2 secondhand shop purchase - around the time I was doing a batch of Suzuki A50 engines for a collector.
Made me think...

WilDun

17th May 2016, 12:53

I can't remember that Jawa, it does remind me of the Villa Bros. original 4 cylnder racers though. There was a period around then that I had lost touch with the European scene.

Pity about Jawa and all the restrictions they had imposed on them in those days (stifled, just like MZ.) - and in the days when it was all happening too.

Watched the speedway in Poland the other night and it seems that Jawa has carved a niche in that branch of motorcyclle racing!
I really should have tried speedway when I was young, very exciting stuff I reckon! unfortunately it's all four strokes and always has been. :rolleyes:

WilDun

17th May 2016, 13:03

Wanganui 2012

Just be happy you can still see it I reckon!:rolleyes:

tjbw

17th May 2016, 14:19

Anyone remember this Arisco, with Tapias engine?

I found it in a little motorcycle museum in Barcelona.

It also has two cylinders, with very little inclination, and two crankshafts.

Other side can be seen here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Arisco_racing_motorcycles#/media/File:Arisco_prototype_250cc_1977_b.JPG

husaberg

17th May 2016, 16:55

321642
That's not a V-engine at all Husa; it's two engines sharing a common gearbox, chassis and rider. If there's more than one crankshaft, it's more than one engine :p.
By the way, if you like that Derbi so much, you must also like its spitting image, the 125 cc aircooled Jawa twin. I wonder which one was first. I tried to find a picture of it, but no luck.

The Jawa was one of several projects the factory had going in '66 - appearing in '67. The 250 single production racer,250 parallel twin,revised 350 twin, 350 version of the V4 - and the 125 v twin.
First information on the 125 was released in April '67.
At Derbi, race chief Tombas constructed an "unofficial" prototype 125 V twin in 1967.

From Mick Walker's Classic European Motorcycles....

There are a couple of good pics of the Jawa too, neater than the Derbi IMO. I'll put them up when i have more time. Later today i hope.
The Debri was only sporadically developed. Which was a shame.
I know of and have plenty of pics of the Jawa, but, alas its not my fav make as one Killed Bill Ivy.
Pretty sure one of them later morphed into the Moto Villa as well.

321658321659321660321661
This is the 250 4, but there was a 125 narrow angle 2 as well.
More stuff to follow later, if I can be bothered.

I have a pic somewhere of a Bultaco tandem twin 250 kart engine, that likely predates the Rotax by a decade.

Frits Overmars

17th May 2016, 21:48

I really should have tried speedway when I was young, very exciting stuff I reckon! unfortunately it's all four strokes and always has been.Well, almost, Will. Would you accept dirttrack as an alternative?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs
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Frits Overmars

17th May 2016, 21:50

I have a pic somewhere of a Bultaco tandem twin 250 kart engine, that likely predates the Rotax by a decade.Been there, never heard of it. You made me very curious Husa.

husaberg

17th May 2016, 22:01

Been there, never heard of it. You made me very curious Husa.

I will have a go at finding it.
It was on a historic kart site along with some real oddball stuff.

Okay my memory is playing tricks
Whoops its a Guazzoni But it was directly under a Bultacco in my defence.:innocent:
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http://www.trhkc.com/engines-2.html

oh its 200CC
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http://www.kartbook.net/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenName=0uqreolllytk6&test-locale=&exposeKeys=&xg_pw=&xgsi=&groupId=&groupUrl=&xgi=&page=7#
I bet it was better than a 9E villiers

Grumph

18th May 2016, 06:33

I bet it was better than a 9E villiers

Oh, I don't know, the last time we had my Villiers special out - one of the Cust revival meetings - it caught and passed three 250 Ducatis....

Before seizing.....

I should probably get it going again, the rules allow it to go on alky now but I'd also want to do a belt primary, better ignition...etc etc....

WilDun

18th May 2016, 23:18

Well, almost, Will. Would you accept dirttrack as an alternative?

Yes that long track stuff is very exciting and Kenny Roberts is a very brave man for tackling it on a TZ750! - especially at his age.
Yes it would have interested me alright, I always liked to slide bikes around at speed sitting upright.
I could also go quite fast on the tarseal, ie for the first few laps then I either started to slow (tired out) or fell off, so the European type speedway would have suited me better, but those US guys sure had some skills! - 20 laps? not for me.

That little Spanish tandem twin looks like a neat package, but it doesn't ring a bell with me.

Husa, are you sure that it wasn't the Villa which morphed into the Jawa powerplant?
Pity about poor old Bill Ivy though - I think he let Phil Read get under his skin.
Read was good as a rider of course, but I've heard that he was not terribly popular otherwise.
That incident put Jawa out of the running as far as road racing was concerned, just as the death of Santiago Herrero in the IOM TT put Ossa out of business.

WilDun

18th May 2016, 23:32

Grumph

19th May 2016, 05:53

Did you ever use the Alpha bottom end or some "other" type? did it originally start life as a 9E or a Starmaker or what?
Just goes to show that I haven't been around the scene for quite a long time or I would probably have seen it!
Oiling those primary chains was always a problem of course, but I must say that I'm amazed that final drive chains have survived,:scratch: - ie considering the beatings they get these days! but I'm sure that good ones cost nearly as much as a shaft drive (but probably much more efficient!).

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box. As first built it used the Villiers 3 speed box until it burst the bottom out of the box....Open primary (well sheet alloy guard like a G50) and an RD Yamaha clutch running dry.
When a Villiers collector here heard I was building it, he gave me a barrel which had been used on Cust back in the 50's by Pauline Nankivel, the only woman ever to race there. Timings were more what we'd use for trials nowadays.....
Only ever been run at meetings around ChCh. parked up since the mid 90's.

WilDun

19th May 2016, 08:58

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box.

I must say that some amazing performances have been screwed out of the old E series Villiers and BSA Bantam engines, way way beyond what the designers intended - and a lot of fun was had by all! -
We shouldn't of course forget the BMC Mini and Hillman Imps ! which were much the same story really.
Guess that's the way bucket racers started out too.

husaberg

19th May 2016, 20:58

Oh, I don't know, the last time we had my Villiers special out - one of the Cust revival meetings - it caught and passed three 250 Ducatis....

Before seizing.....

I should probably get it going again, the rules allow it to go on alky now but I'd also want to do a belt primary, better ignition...etc etc....

Did you ever use the Alpha bottom end or some "other" type? did it originally start life as a 9E or a Starmaker or what?
Just goes to show that I haven't been around the scene for quite a long time or I would probably have seen it!
Oiling those primary chains was always a problem of course, but I must say that I'm amazed that final drive chains have survived,:scratch: - ie considering the beatings they get these days! but I'm sure that good ones cost nearly as much as a shaft drive (but probably much more efficient!).

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box. As first built it used the Villiers 3 speed box until it burst the bottom out of the box....Open primary (well sheet alloy guard like a G50) and an RD Yamaha clutch running dry.
When a Villiers collector here heard I was building it, he gave me a barrel which had been used on Cust back in the 50's by Pauline Nankivel, the only woman ever to race there. Timings were more what we'd use for trials nowadays.....
Only ever been run at meetings around ChCh. parked up since the mid 90's.

Funny thing with the Villiers gearboxes all the gears can be swapped around you can have any ratios for each gear you want.
My cylinder was 219cc had a oddball hepolite piston that was a smaller bore than the 225 Villiers but it did have alloy fins shrunk on the top. It was very mild withabout 5mm of the head and a 30mm carb and a expansion chamber designed by a 16 year old (me)
It was about the same speed as a MZ250TS (Yes that slow)
The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

Yes that long track stuff is very exciting and Kenny Roberts is a very brave man for tackling it on a TZ750! - especially at his age.
Yes it would have interested me alright, I always liked to slide bikes around at speed sitting upright.
I could also go quite fast on the tarseal, ie for the first few laps then I either started to slow (tired out) or fell off, so the European type speedway would have suited me better, but those US guys sure had some skills! - 20 laps? not for me.

That little Spanish tandem twin looks like a neat package, but it doesn't ring a bell with me.

Husa, are you sure that it wasn't the Villa which morphed into the Jawa powerplant?
Pity about poor old Bill Ivy though - I think he let Phil Read get under his skin.
Read was good as a rider of course, but I've heard that he was not terribly popular otherwise.
That incident put Jawa out of the running as far as road racing was concerned, just as the death of Santiago Herrero in the IOM TT put Ossa out of business.
Not sure what came first or even if they are really related, it was just a feeling.

Grumph

20th May 2016, 06:50

The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

I was accumulating bits for a twin Villiers mated to the early A7 plunger box. Yamaha DT360 cranks and rods. Crankwebs machined narrower to suit the small cases, DT360 primary gear with the teeth machined off as a crank coupler - they're splined rather than a taper. Big alloy plate with the 6/7/8E cases bolted one side and the box on the other.
Still got the crank bits but sold off the box and villiers bits long ago. Bro wanted the box for a Douglas project...
First version of my special was in a VERY lightweight rigid frame. Rider complained so I had to do something better. Bas Chambers bought the frame for a trials bike, LOL. You or your dad would remember him Husa.

husaberg

20th May 2016, 15:10

I was accumulating bits for a twin Villiers mated to the early A7 plunger box. Yamaha DT360 cranks and rods. Crankwebs machined narrower to suit the small cases, DT360 primary gear with the teeth machined off as a crank coupler - they're splined rather than a taper. Big alloy plate with the 6/7/8E cases bolted one side and the box on the other.
Still got the crank bits but sold off the box and villiers bits long ago. Bro wanted the box for a Douglas project...
First version of my special was in a VERY lightweight rigid frame. Rider complained so I had to do something better. Bas Chambers bought the frame for a trials bike, LOL. You or your dad would remember him Husa.

funny I remember the name.
Its mute though with anything Villiers a Ariel arrow or a greeves would still be a better starting point anyway.

F5 Dave

20th May 2016, 19:34

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

Grumph

20th May 2016, 19:40

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....

husaberg

20th May 2016, 19:46

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....
it was part of my post

Funny thing with the Villiers gearboxes all the gears can be swapped around you can have any ratios for each gear you want.
My cylinder was 219cc had a oddball hepolite piston that was a smaller bore than the 225 Villiers but it did have alloy fins shrunk on the top. It was very mild withabout 5mm of the head and a 30mm carb and a expansion chamber designed by a 16 year old (me)
It was about the same speed as a MZ250TS (Yes that slow)
The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

.

F5 Dave

20th May 2016, 21:24

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....
OK then. How about make your own crankcases, a modified GT750 crank and three CR, no wait, make them RM250 barrels in a V configuration.

husaberg

20th May 2016, 21:28

OK then. How about make your own crankcases, a modified GT750 crank and three CR, no wait, make them RM250 barrels in a V configuration.

For those that are interested the GT 750 crank dimensions are here.
(Later)
http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/techbuls/SerBulletin%20Specifications%206-9.pdf
The GT550 is likely better almost the same stroke.
But there are plenty of jetski and snowmobile stuff.
Mercury did a V8 twostroke for outboards.
the Artic Cat 660 for instance takes RGV250, or 200 cylinders as a bolt on.
btw that sounds like the bike you posted once
That had 3 Rm250 cylinders (might have been Wob or speedpro)
there was always the V4 I posted ages ago.
321712321713321714321717321715321716
click on them three times
Have you heard anything from Pete Greg?

F5 Dave

20th May 2016, 21:37

Nah it was Jimmy.

husaberg

20th May 2016, 21:43

Nah it was Jimmy.

that posted it?
I was actually looking at it the other day.
It was in the ESE thread somewhere.
Speedpro posted these pics, but I have seen another pic somewhere as well.
321718321719

bit closer to home, 3 X RM250 cylinders, home made engine in a ZXR750 chassis
Found the other pics
321720

This is another example of exhaust pipe art. Jim Steadman's 750/3 that he built, bottom pipe. It does a reasonably tight loop straight out of the port before snaking aft. Pipe built by Nomates.

Jim Steadman, 75deg V3, 3x RM250s. Rumour has it that Dennis Charlott may be doing a few laps on it later in the year at a few chosen meetings.
There was also the other V4 The original BSL500
That Nomates,I guess still has?

Bill built a V4 - 500 that used YZ125 parts, with a pressed and welded frame.
It wasnt very clever, and he didnt like it when I said to him in the tent at Manfield that the guy who made the pipes should be shot.
I was with Mike Sinclair, Mike Webb and the other Mike the suspension guy from here in Tauranga.
They all told Bill to start again, and eventually he did.
When Loren and I turned up to start the project, he wanted us to finish the prototype, but as I pointed out there was no place to put the water pump,so that sealed its fate - bin it.

Another laugh I had was over Briggsy designing and building all the pipes, more rubbish.
I was so busy trying to get the engine rework done - I taught him what to do, and gave him the laser'd pattern designs and he welded and hammered some of the final few sets up, including some Ti ones.
Made some real nice ones too.
Jason Monopoly worked for John B, then came to us at BSL for 6 months.
He did all the glass styling/design work, and off that Roly made some stunning bodywork that worked well in the wind tunnel testing we did at AK Uni.
But alot was changed when Mike Sinclair mused about sidewind effects at 300Km/H

Nigels bike we worked on and off for about 10 years,going in fits when he had some money.
It was a pretty thing, as you can see from the pipes,but Nige finally gave up on trying to finish it - its gone to Rodent in Queenstown

Wish I'd taken some pics of Nigels V4 500 pipes, they were nice. Actually the whole bike was a cool project.
okay maybe not.
321721

husaberg

21st May 2016, 21:14

321642
That's not a V-engine at all Husa; it's two engines sharing a common gearbox, chassis and rider. If there's more than one crankshaft, it's more than one engine :p.
By the way, if you like that Derbi so much, you must also like its spitting image, the 125 cc aircooled Jawa twin. I wonder which one was first. I tried to find a picture of it, but no luck.

The Jawa was one of several projects the factory had going in '66 - appearing in '67. The 250 single production racer,250 parallel twin,revised 350 twin, 350 version of the V4 - and the 125 v twin.
First information on the 125 was released in April '67.
At Derbi, race chief Tombas constructed an "unofficial" prototype 125 V twin in 1967.

From Mick Walker's Classic European Motorcycles....

There are a couple of good pics of the Jawa too, neater than the Derbi IMO. I'll put them up when i have more time. Later today i hope.

Here is the Debri stuff I posted ages ago.

I also posted this Jawa in V4 form

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F8n5ZqB-0s

I also found this

Fritz sent these through a couple of weeks ago but it's taken some time to get them up.

http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/DKW-Jawa-KTM-Ossa-Rumi-Fath-Stredor-Seel-Hessels-carbs-CRP.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Honda-Suzuki-Yamahai.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Jamathi-Piovaticci-Bultaco-Garelli-Kreidler.zip

husaberg

21st May 2016, 21:41

Jawa 125 net troll produced this
Note one of the pics has the upper exhaust between the cylinders

Also note the head finning
321766321767321768321769

Plus some V4 drawings
321770

I also found this imight have posted it before though but I don't care
The Clisby 24 cylinder "Formula 1” engine

321771
http://www.collingrovehillclimb.com.au/haroldclisby/

With the impending change of F1 to 3 litres in 1966 it was obvious that the 1.5 litre Clisby V6 would never compete in F1 so Harold Clisby decided to build an all new racing engine.
This was to be a water-cooled, 2 stroke engine of modular construction so that the engine size could be varied if the capacity limit was changed. (Harold was unaware that 2 strokes were not allowed in F1 and when he found out, he still went ahead any way!)
The theory was to build a single cylinder, 125 cc engine and develop it to produce around 18 to 20 bhp.
Four of these 125 cc engines, each with a bevel gear on the output shaft, were to be attached to a common housing which contained a larger bevel geared output shaft that mated to each of the engine. This produced a 500 cc module and two modules could be stacked together to produce an 8 cylinder 1 litre engine or three modules to produce a 1500 cc engine etc. In the case of the 3 litre engine there would be six 500 cc modules or 24 cylinders.
The 4 cylinder, 500 cc module
General arrangement drawing of 24 cylinder, 3 litre engine
The single cylinder engine ran successfully and was raced in a go-kart. Harold designed a small electric dyno which I built but it never worked very well and I don’t know what hp we achieved.
I built one 4 cylinder module but this was never fired up as by that time I was busy with developing cylinder heads castings for the Repco-Brabham project.
The 4 engines were later mounted in a Norton motorcycle in a two by two arrangement but I don’t think it ever raced.

husaberg

21st May 2016, 22:09

Pics of interest out of Frits Jawa file.

321772321773321774321775

WilDun

22nd May 2016, 11:14

The Clisby 24 cylinder "Formula 1” engine

Looks like bevel gears are used to drive the output shaft! - that's something new which I haven't seen before! (How efficient is bevel gearing compared to normal "straight" gears?)- must say it's a very compact answer though.

Flettner - Possible aircraft engine? (not necessarily 24 cylinder of course), maybe 4?

Flettner

22nd May 2016, 17:44

Yes, fascinating few pages for sure. Where is all this development stuff, boiled down to regulated fourstrokes these days, all the same.

husaberg

22nd May 2016, 17:49

Looks like bevel gears are used to drive the output shaft! - that's something new which I haven't seen before! (How efficient is bevel gearing compared to normal "straight" gears?)- must say it's a very compact answer though.

Flettner - Possible aircraft engine? (not necessarily 24 cylinder of course), maybe 4?

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them, unless its a BMW or similar layout like a Gucci..............then it only has one
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's

pete376403

24th May 2016, 20:44

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them, unless its a BMW or similar layout like a Gucci..............then it only has one
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's
And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

husaberg

24th May 2016, 20:55

And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

Diffs have them as well:yes:
plus some Excelsior Manxman and NSU Renmax twins
321833 321835
Plus the early Honda racers were as well.
321834

WilDun

24th May 2016, 23:36

Diffs have them as well:yes:
plus some Excelsior Manxman and NSU Renmax twins
Plus the early Honda racers were as well.

True.

And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

True.

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them,
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's

Also True and there's a host of other examples! from between the wars.

But ........ none delivering the power to the rear wheels!

What I was saying, well asking really, was why does it need bevel gearing to the output shaft when the crankshafts could be in line with the output shaft and use straight gears? - maybe more convenient for positioning exhausts?

tjbw

25th May 2016, 01:35

Will,

Some shaft drive bikes do indeed have the power unit rotated 90 degrees, e.g. Honda ST1100, and Triumph Rocket III.

They still need bevel gears at the rear wheel though.

WilDun

25th May 2016, 10:56

Will,

Some shaft drive bikes do indeed have the power unit rotated 90 degrees, e.g. Honda ST1100, and Triumph Rocket III.

They still need bevel gears at the rear wheel though.

True again and these are sometimes (power soaking) spiral bevels, but remember they are operating at much lower speeds than those operating at crankshaft speeds.

Around 1969, I had a 1948 Mk.2 KSS Velocette engine, which was fitted in an Ariel Red Hunter frame and I occasionally used it (just for fun) at the easier motocross meetings.
It had a bevel gear drive to the OHC and the shaft between was fitted with an Oldham Coupling - it used to rattle like a skeleton in a barrel!
A (miserable) guy came up to me one day and gave me "a jolly good ticking off" for even considering taking that engine out on the track, he said it should be carefully rebuilt and kept in a display case!
I asked him if he would like to buy it ........End of story! :rolleyes:

tjbw

27th May 2016, 09:21

WilDun

29th May 2016, 21:45

Sounds like a good pairing. Did you modify the Red Hunter frame in any way?

Red Hunter was developed into HT5, which in turn was modified by Sammy Miller, to become one of the most successful competition bikes of all time.

I didn't actually do the modifications,I just bought it as a fun bike for the occasional easy motocross outing, it was a good pairing because I don't think that the original Velocette frame would have been suitable for the dirt.
In my first outing I managed to beat the guy who sold it to me and he was highly pissed off because he had bought a very good "looking" AMC scrambler and he complained bitterly that I didn't let him past! :rolleyes:

Didn't win anything with that ancient machine, but I had a lot of fun!

Oh and Sammy Miller came from Belfast too and started off his career in road racing, he rode a 250 Mondial, beating Mike Hailwood at the NW 200! - Think Hailwood was on an NSU.

WilDun

30th May 2016, 20:30

husaberg

30th May 2016, 21:19

Here is a real oddball Porsche 911 head bolts onto BSA B50
http://www.b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=291

question for you euros. Which one came first? When I designed that 1st Aries B50 piston, I worked for two weeks drawing that up and sent it in. Almost right away I get a call from Aries and I'm thinking, " Oh Oh, I must have asked for something stupid". The guy says, "Why didn't you just say you wanted a Porsche 911 piston with a .750" Pin?" ( The Porsche has a 23mm pin). Later I found out that when Dan Gurney @ AAR made the B50 for Chuck Palmgren to race "TTs" in American flattrack, they cut the fins off from a 911 cylinder and put what was left in a B50 instead of the stock sleeve and used a stock 911 piston. Naturally they were using a Carrillo rod so they had Jack make it with a 23mm piston pin hole. Later yet I saw a 911 cylinder, head, and piston on eBay so I bought them. Now here's where it REALLY gets weird. Except that the bolts and holes are metric, everything fits. You can put a 911 cylinder right on a B50 and the B50 head fits the cylinder. The valves are possitioned the same with the same angle and the 911 head fits right on a B50 cylinder. Now THIS is the really weird part, the stud pattern for the 911 OHC box is almost the same as the B50 rockerbox. By removing 1-2 studs, the B50 Rockerbox will bolt right on a 911 head. Now I believe that is way too much to be just luck so someone must have copied someone. My question is who? If you guys want, I can take some pics of these pieces intermixed and send them to Rickard..... Stan

tjbw

31st May 2016, 00:12

I remember Sammy Miller with his highly modified Ariel trials bike - beating everyone in sight..........then the lightweight Bultacos turned up and trials never was the same again!and Ariel started to fall apart.

Sammy developed the Bultaco Sherpa N, and kept on winning on it.

I had thought his success on the Ariel was partly due to the smooth torque characteristics of the 4 stroke HT5, so was quite surprised that he adjusted to the two stroke Bultaco right away.

Some more info on Sammy and his Bultaco here:

http://www.retrotrials.com/the-actual-bultaco-that-changed-the-sport-forever.html

tjbw

31st May 2016, 01:15

Moto Guzzi W4?

This is just a mock-up. It was considered for ultralight use, but I don't think it was ever produced.

It's two 90 degree V twins with new crankcase, and contra-rotating crankshafts.

Grumph

31st May 2016, 06:54

Here is a real oddball Porsche 911 head bolts onto BSA B50

Makes you wonder if anyone has done the upgrade to a 911 and fitted six of the Rickman/Weslake head kits....

Edit - for those not of an age to remember, Weslake did a bolt on head and barrel kit for the B40/441 Victor which took them out to 500cc. Marketed by the Rickman bros.
Having seen a 911 head, a BSA B50 head and the Rickman kit, I'd reckon there's nothing between the 911 and stock BSA except casting quality - shapes are very similar. But the Weslake developed 2V head is superior to both IMO.
Finding them now could be a problem...No idea if Nourish had the patterns.

WilDun

1st June 2016, 10:57

Weslake did a bolt on head and barrel kit for the B40/441 Victor which took them out to 500cc.
Having seen a 911 head, a BSA B50 head and the Rickman kit, I'd reckon there's nothing between the 911 and stock BSA except casting quality

Amazing! - So which company produced the best quality castings?- Porsche I guess?

Grumph

1st June 2016, 14:21

Amazing! - So which company produced the best quality castings?- Porsche I guess?

Yes, Porsche obviously had big money invested in dies. BSA were pretty good for the era - the Birmingham area was well known for foundries as you'd remember Will.
Weslake in the late 60's onward were good too. I seem to remember in Harry's autobiography reading that they took over a local foundry to keep quality control in house. I've seen a few Weslakes and without exception the foundry work was top class.

tjbw

1st June 2016, 16:11

I was quite impressed by the quality of castings on the AJS Porcupine. There's one on display at the Sammy Miller museum, New Milton England. Also on various Bristol sleeve valve radial aero engines, some on display at Science museum, London.

husaberg

1st June 2016, 17:04

Makes you wonder if anyone has done the upgrade to a 911 and fitted six of the Rickman/Weslake head kits....

Edit - for those not of an age to remember, Weslake did a bolt on head and barrel kit for the B40/441 Victor which took them out to 500cc. Marketed by the Rickman bros.
Having seen a 911 head, a BSA B50 head and the Rickman kit, I'd reckon there's nothing between the 911 and stock BSA except casting quality - shapes are very similar. But the Weslake developed 2V head is superior to both IMO.
Finding them now could be a problem...No idea if Nourish had the patterns.

from memory another crowd did a 4v head as well?

I would have though the BSA was likely better in flow, BSA always had pretty decent heads esp combustion chambers compared to Triumphs and other era stuff.
The Triumph twins were just a bit sturdier and had those two cams to play with.
The B25 head is first class almost thoroughly modern looking head design just cams mounted underneath.
the B25 also has eccentric rockers rather than traditional screw and locknut.
Shame they cheapened out on the oilpump and filter set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vI_HUVOipE

Someone else (I think) also did a speedway version of the BSA.

edit CCM did one.

321980
http://www.b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3640

Grumph

1st June 2016, 19:59

from memory another crowd did a 4v head as well?

Someone else (I think) also did a speedway version of the BSA.

edit CCM did one

The factory did the first speedway B50. One of the contracted trials riders was a pro speedway rider too so he got the job of trying it, lol.

Pretty sure all the experimental stuff wound up at CCM. That guy in the forum link putting a CX head on one makes me laugh. Almost as much as when an Adelaide macchi customer told me he was building a CX post classic racebike...I don't think he ever finished it.

husaberg

1st June 2016, 20:20

The factory did the first speedway B50. One of the contracted trials riders was a pro speedway rider too so he got the job of trying it, lol.

Pretty sure all the experimental stuff wound up at CCM. That guy in the forum link putting a CX head on one makes me laugh. Almost as much as when an Adelaide macchi customer told me he was building a CX post classic racebike...I don't think he ever finished it.

Sorry the CCM edit was about the 4valve head.
Its mention in there somewhere
haha those CX heads are twisted as well.
I used to love just looking at the CCM primary covers. Form follows function.
321981

pete376403

1st June 2016, 20:21

Yes, Porsche obviously had big money invested in dies. BSA were pretty good for the era - the Birmingham area was well known for foundries as you'd remember Will.
Weslake in the late 60's onward were good too. I seem to remember in Harry's autobiography reading that they took over a local foundry to keep quality control in house. I've seen a few Weslakes and without exception the foundry work was top class.

My Weslake speedway motor was pretty rough (castings finish-wise), especially when compared to the 4v Jawa that replaced it. (early versions of both) I did a rebuild on one of the OHC Wessies, that was a bit better than the 4v pushrod one that I had.

Also halfway down this page is a pic that looks like a B31/33 BSA with a 4 valve twin cam Jawa head and barrel
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30920056@N05/sets/72157629892320000

pete376403

1st June 2016, 20:36

Someone else (I think) also did a speedway version of the BSA.

edit CCM did one.

321980
http://www.b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3640

That cylinder head looks a whole lot like the pushrod Weslake I used to race.

husaberg

1st June 2016, 20:40

That cylinder head looks a whole lot like the pushrod Weslake I used to race.

It sure could be, I have no idea, I was only going by the text. It said the Westlake was a bit poos compared to the CCM.

Grumph

2nd June 2016, 06:46

My Weslake speedway motor was pretty rough (castings finish-wise), especially when compared to the 4v Jawa that replaced it. (early versions of both) I did a rebuild on one of the OHC Wessies, that was a bit better than the 4v pushrod one that I had.

Also halfway down this page is a pic that looks like a B31/33 BSA with a 4 valve twin cam Jawa head and barrel

The pushrod singles were always a bit rough round the edges. They got caught out by the demand and never had the time to go back and tidy up the patterns.
The later engines like the parallel twins were very well finished.
Guy I know mechaniced for Poole Pirates who were used by the factory as a test team and talks of Harry turning up at practises to see how a new cam or whatever went. Nice guy and very approachable.

WilDun

4th June 2016, 14:23

After seeing the videos etc. of the Suter two stroke to be ridden at the IOM TT by Ian Lougher, I am really quite impressed.
I really love the sound and with a power to weight ratio right off the planet as it will no doubt have, with a bit more development it'll be a fantastic machine....... but after these last few years of no smoke from exhausts, that cloud of smoke at the start etc. will not go down well with the general public or the four stroke brigade! - quite frankly I believe that really does matter for the future of the two stroke, whether we (ie the two stroke brigade) like it or not! :facepalm:

Maybe it's time to drag out the 3 cylinder Bill Buckley racer (BSL) and try again with Bruce Anstey on board!

husaberg

12th June 2016, 12:15

Sutter ..........why not one of these Bantams crossed with Ariel Arrow and RG500.
It looks like there are a few versions.
322242322243322244322245322246322247

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9qiprE7P6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJyNVHSejY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yRNmqFN0Fk

Grumph

12th June 2016, 15:46

The extra shock in the frame has me baffled...

Ocean1

12th June 2016, 15:52

The extra shock in the frame has me baffled...

Given what he's using for the rest of the bike he's probably just making best use of a pair of half fucked second hand shocks and a half fucked monoshock...

Edit: or compensating for the difference between what he weighed back then and what he does now.

husaberg

12th June 2016, 15:54

The extra shock in the frame has me baffled...

Rather than the detuning of a RG500 with 50's pommy two stroke bits, or the use of a bantam frame to contain it;)

Grumph

12th June 2016, 17:43

Rather than the detuning of a RG500 with 50's pommy two stroke bits, or the use of a bantam frame to contain it;)

I've seen the poms do stranger things - if that's what you have on hand, it's all quite logical...Except for that shock.....

WilDun

12th June 2016, 19:12

I've seen the poms do stranger things - if that's what you have on hand, it's all quite logical...Except for that shock.....

It's all a big shock! But the guy does have a sense of humour - no doubt only did it for a bit of fun and it was obviously a great talking point.
I must say that the original Arrow was a lot smokier than that one, so I bet it's not running on a 20:1 mix!
I don't think I'd ride it flat out for much more than a hundred metres as I'd fear for the cooling on those rear cylinders. - but a great effort ( at least he got off his ass and had a go!).:niceone:

Grumph

12th June 2016, 19:48

There's an annual moped run local to me - Sid's Run - which has turned into a competition between several very clever engineer/fabricators as to who can turn up with the weirdest concoction...
That "Bantam" would fit right in - except for the big bikes around it, the scene looks just like the start of Sid's Run...

WilDun

16th June 2016, 09:52

tjbw

16th June 2016, 10:08

At first glance I thought that this was a uniflow 2 stroke, with a rotary exhaust valve in the head.

However, I soon realised that it's a 4 stroke, with single overhead camshaft.

I also thought that supercharging could be achieved with the two crankcase compression cycles per power stroke, but I guess it didn't work so well, as it never made production.

tjbw

16th June 2016, 10:17

tjbw

16th June 2016, 10:53

It's a turbo diesel twin, using two counter rotating crankshafts. More information, including an animation here: http://www.neander-motors.com/en/motoren/motorcycle/

I'd really like to have one of these engines. I'd use the parts to build two new engines. One would be a twin using the Neander top end with a conventional crankcase. The other would be a square four, using the Neander bottom end with four new cylinders, pistons and heads.

How's that for a pipe dream ;)

WilDun

16th June 2016, 12:24

That looks more like the museum at Willenhall, near Birmingham.

I'll check when I'm back at Sammy's museum next week.

OK, that would be good, there isn't a lot of info available on that one!
I'm afraid I haven't ever spent much time in England and it would be nice to spend a year or so there going round all the racing and bike scene in general. I haven't seen any of the museums either. (went to Earls court show once but that' about all).

WilDun

16th June 2016, 13:14

I also thought that supercharging could be achieved with the two crankcase compression cycles per power stroke, but I guess it didn't work so well, as it never made production.

Husa, when did they make that one? that same concept was used (still is) very successfully in a model aircraft engine brand, called YS.
Don't know which would have come first, the fullsize Maico or the YS model engine?

Grumph

16th June 2016, 19:51

Just as a matter of interest this is a prototype Ariel Arrow with a 700cc fourstroke four cylinder engine with the same arrangement as the much later BMW fours.
Never went into production but Sammy Miller used to ride it to work for years I believe and I think it now resides in his museum.

Sammy actually built much of the rolling chassis. It's written up in an early issue of "The Classic Motor Cycle" which i have somewhere here.
Bob Currie who wrote the article actually remembered visiting Ariel in the 60's to see sammy about his trials bike - and meeting him carrying what was obviously two Leader headlamp assemblies welded together. "just something we're trying" said sammy...
He certainly did the restoration, where it is now I don't know.

husaberg

16th June 2016, 20:15

Just as a matter of interest this is a prototype Ariel Arrow with a 700cc fourstroke four cylinder engine with the same arrangement as the much later BMW fours.
Never went into production but Sammy Miller used to ride it to work for years I believe and I think it now resides in his museum.

322333

They did a prototype 350 foul stroke twin version or at least drew one up as well.
here is the sectioned two stroke
It has a cool internal external taper join on the crank halves.
322349

Excelsior did a 250 and 325ish twin that was very "Villiers single like" to look at.
http://members.shaw.ca/elrojo/motorcycles_files/excelsior_files/excelsior_talisman_engine.jpg
322350322351322353
They did a three cylinder version as well for invalid carriages and small cars. I'm not sure if the 3 cylinder was used in bikes or not I have never seen one 2 cylinder or triple. anyone seen one in the flesh?
322352 322354

husaberg

16th June 2016, 21:13

Henderson Inline 6 when the usual/unusual four was just not enough
322355
https://greasengasoline.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-1930-henderson-inline-6-cylinder-grease-n-gasoline/

Muciek

16th June 2016, 23:18

4T pushrod conversion to rotary valve engine Junak 350
here are pictures on page 1 2 3

http://sfm-junak.pl/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3690&rowstart=0

And few clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZllG3BCEJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD21hJSoTMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr5eCf56pz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9i7JlKvoGk

WilDun

17th June 2016, 09:50

Funny thing about this thread is that sometimes there's nothing, then there's a torrent of stuff comes in and there's definitely a torrent now!

Yes Husa, I think Excelsior normally used the two stroke Villiers 2T and 4T engines or maybe developments of them- BTW, this denoted the models (not to be confused with the two stroke and four stroke abbreviations as we use them today!!).
I have the feeling that Excelsior may have also developed the three cylinder engine from the twin Villiers engines and I do seem to remember some guy in England building a bike using that 3 cylinder engine.

The Ariel Arrow crankshaft had a simple and ingenious .... cheap? idea for joining the cranks in the middle - it had a taper with a key and was secured with a large allen head bolt
This in turn had to be accessed through the hollow (alternator side) crankshaft half by a long allen screw.
I think that it's main failing was that it was impossible to get the ignition timing just right on each cylinder because as we all know, keys on tapers are not exactly great for accurate location, certainly not as good as splines (but much cheaper).
However it all meant that you could remove the crankshaft without taking the engine out of the bike!
I know all this because it had me flummoxed for a long time before I finally figured it out when I was about sixteen and didn't have a manual!

...... It was all great fun of course and I loved the Arrow, but it could be a very frustrating machine sometimes mainly because of lack of development. :scratch:

That's what I think anyway.

MUCIEK
I did like that rotary OHV machine from Poland too but all those rotary valves have been in development for probably 80 years. I'm impressed with it's even running and lack of smoke - hope it doesn't eventually disappear! The computer translation from Polish to English isn't really the best but I did get the gist of it!

I see you've got a lot of very talented speedway riders from Poland now!

Flettner

17th June 2016, 11:45

Yeh, don't tell him that the rotary valve head won't work and he will probably make a success of it;)
Looks too good to be true, good on the young guy! Now just to turn it to a Uniflow twostroke.

WilDun

17th June 2016, 12:22

Yeh, don't tell him that the rotary valve head won't work and he will probably make a success of it;)
Looks too good to be true, good on the young guy! Now just to turn it to a Uniflow twostroke.

Becoming a two stroke won't improve things much - I reckon any kind of sliding exhaust valve is severely handicapped from the start because of all the heat, shit and lack of lube.
The good old poppet valve still works ok despite all it's failings, which includes cams (thought you'd like that bit).;)

WilDun

17th June 2016, 17:05

This is the Excelsior 3, - Thought for a moment it might be an Anzani engine, but can't find Anzani having had any association with Excelsior.
Here it is anyway plus a twin (in a car).

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Muciek

17th June 2016, 22:08

He will be dyno tuning this engine in near future. Oryginał engine had giagantic problem with making power because poor casting quality of the head and the valvetrain components were made of not good quality materials.Right now he doesnt have problems with heat because it's not tuned for any power I think.

Wysłane z mojego GT-S8500 przy użyciu Tapatalka

Flettner

18th June 2016, 17:51

Becoming a two stroke won't improve things much - I reckon any kind of sliding exhaust valve is severely handicapped from the start because of all the heat

Twostroke has a sliding exhaust valve.

WilDun

18th June 2016, 18:47

Twostroke has a sliding exhaust valve.

Now, I had a bet with myself and anticipated that you'd say exactly that! - In my defence I was going to reply "well, but in that case, there's a nice cooling oily charge coming in right over the sliding component" However, as you said, don't tell them it won't work and they'll probably succeed!
They're using the good old Kiwi "suck it and see" attitude and that will tell them once and for all whether it will work or not!
Polish people are well known for not giving up too!!

ken seeber

18th June 2016, 22:14

While we have ventured onto the topic of pommy 2 stroke twins, it reminded me of an absolutely beautifully styled. Oz made, luxury sedan, powered by, no less than the Villiers 325 cc twin.

Ladies and gentlemen, I offer you the Lightburn Zeta circa 1964. :violin:

322407

But wait, there's more! As a result of its overwhelming stunning international sales success, a sports version was also made. However, as a reflection of its sporting character, it was fitted with a 500 c twin.

322408

You've gotta admit, pretty impressive hey.

WilDun

19th June 2016, 09:07

Ladies and gentlemen, I offer you the Lightburn Zeta circa 1964. :violin:

But wait, there's more! As a result of its overwhelming stunning international sales success, a sports version was also made. However, as a reflection of its sporting character, it was fitted with a 500 c twin.

Noddy and his best friend Big Ears would have really really loved that one - especially the sports model!

Grumph

19th June 2016, 09:29

Noddy and his best friend Big Ears would have really really loved that one - especially the sports model!

Saw a writeup on the Lightburn saga some years back. The pom who was behind it had been involved in kit cars back in the UK. The Zeta was pretty much all Aussie but the sports was alleged to be off the moulds of one he was involved with in the UK.
Again from memory, at the time of the writeup he was heavily involved in vineyards and winemaking in SA - and doing very well indeed.

Flettner

19th June 2016, 09:30

husaberg

19th June 2016, 10:53

You have to admit, it would look real nice with a V6 300 HP twostroke under the bonet, six chambers all stuck out the side!

I am pretty sure Mercury or one of the other outboard makers did a full on V8 as well Flet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=EmnsXTMLzCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=lRKeuHyI0lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLDM1kE8pVw
Where is Seattle smity

WilDun

19th June 2016, 11:49

You have to admit, it would look real nice with a V6 300 HP twostroke under the bonet, six chambers all stuck out the side!

How about using the chambers as an integral part of the body and save space and weight - that would make it a hot little number! :msn-wink:

But ...... after having had a good laugh about it, I'm sure that right now it's a valuable collector's item - and it really does have some appeal.

tjbw

24th June 2016, 12:33

OK, that would be good, there isn't a lot of info available on that one!
I'm afraid I haven't ever spent much time in England and it would be nice to spend a year or so there going round all the racing and bike scene in general. I haven't seen any of the museums either. (went to Earls court show once but that' about all).
Confirmed, it's in the National Motorcycle Museum at Willenhall, near Birmingham airport in England.

Some more info on it here:

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Arial/ariel_fourcylinder_prototype.htm

Sammy has some Ariel square fours, and four cylinder Hendersons in his museum.

WilDun

25th June 2016, 11:46

Confirmed, it's in the National Motorcycle Museum at Willenhall, near Birmingham airport in England.

Some more info on it here:

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Arial/ariel_fourcylinder_prototype.htm

Sammy has some Ariel square fours, and four cylinder Hendersons in his museum.

Thought you were probably right, - would be nice to go over there and soak up the bike stuff but I don't think that I'll be travelling much from now on unfortunately.
Still I did have a lot of bike fun over there and a lot here too.
I spent 22 years in N.Ireland and 50 years in New Zealand! (50th anniversary of my arrival just a couple of days ago) - so I am much more a Kiwi now!
But .... who knows I may still make it! :yes:

tjbw

26th June 2016, 13:33

Wouldn't like this to fall on me.

https://youtu.be/McSikBdGghU

pete376403

26th June 2016, 20:01

Love this - a car powered by an aircraft engine from a (primarily) motorcycle engine manufacturer; J.A.P V8
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=136808

WilDun

27th June 2016, 09:29

Wouldn't like this to fall on me.

https://youtu.be/McSikBdGghU

That's what you do when you've got time and money to spare! - Donald Trump should do something like that instead!

husaberg

27th June 2016, 17:19

Love this - a car powered by an aircraft engine from a (primarily) motorcycle engine manufacturer; J.A.P V8
http://theoldmotor.com/?p=136808

4X rear chain drive for those occasions when 3 is just not manly enough.

Grumph

27th June 2016, 19:25

4X rear chain drive for those occasions when 3 is just not manly enough.

That's actually a Frazer-Nash gearbox. Fixed sprockets on the axle and loose sprockets on the layshaft - engaged by dog clutches as required.
Quickish changes of ratios, fast action shifts, light and cheap....

There were some weird and wonderful Shelsey specials built like that one. The Bolster bros car with 4 X JAP V twins was certainly one of the most unusual with chains running everywhere.

husaberg

27th June 2016, 19:31

That's actually a Frazer-Nash gearbox. Fixed sprockets on the axle and loose sprockets on the layshaft - engaged by dog clutches as required.
Quickish changes of ratios, fast action shifts, light and cheap....

There were some weird and wonderful Shelsey specials built like that one. The Bolster bros car with 4 X JAP V twins was certainly one of the most unusual with chains running everywhere.

So only one chain drove the axel at any given time and you could engage other gear ratios to engage them with it, on the fly?

Grumph

27th June 2016, 19:57

So only one chain drove the axel at any given time and you could engage other gear ratios to engage them with it, on the fly?

Yep, but all rotated all the time the car was moving...The round casting visible in the pic is a conventional clutch to disengage the drive in normal fashion. Once engaged, you can switch from chain to chain using the dog clutches worked by a fairly conventional gear lever.The layout enforces a fairly high seat position which was a problem for the few race single seaters built.

To clarify even more - each chain you see is a different ratio drive...if they all use the same pitch chain then the sum of the sprocket teeth must add up to the same number. In practise this usually meant a very close ratio box - ideal for racing.

The Frazer Nash mob were called of course the "chain gang"....

tjbw

28th June 2016, 11:24

Here's a V4 engine. It has 1 crankshaft, two crankpins, 4 conrods, but only 1 carb. This is on display at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

tjbw

28th June 2016, 11:32

That's what you do when you've got time and money to spare! - Donald Trump should do something like that instead!

Well I think they'd need to spend even more money. Need big springs to support all that weight, exhaust and inlet redesign would be fun too.

tjbw

28th June 2016, 13:13

Here's a real oddball, Excalibur, by Major John Treen. This was proposed as a 'world beater' in the 60s, it was to be funded by sale of raffle tickets, but I guess they didn't manage to sell enough tickets.

In about 1967 I won quite a few books of the raffle tickets, along with a nice Bulova watch, which was presented to me by Freddy Frith, for correctly predicting 1st 2nd and 3rd in the Senior Manx Grand Prix .

I always wondered what happened to Excalibur, and was surprised to find this exhibit at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

husaberg

28th June 2016, 18:07

Grumph

28th June 2016, 19:31

husaberg

28th June 2016, 21:01

I've got a writeup on that from Motor Cycling, Jan, 1963 that i've been threatening to send to husa as it's too big for me to scan. Has cutaways and crank pics too. Not a converted RG500 - but clever given what he had to work with...Builder was B W J Hindes AMI Mech E complete with 'tach and pipe.
There's another Brit 2 stroke four i must hunt out and send both over to Husa.
The second four is also supercharged like this one...

The Villiers 4 I vaguely remember from somewhere.........
Send it or a photocopy ya chicken.

WilDun

29th June 2016, 00:18

Here's a real oddball, Excalibur, by Major John Treen. This was proposed as a 'world beater' in the 60s, it was to be funded by sale of raffle tickets, but I guess they didn't manage to sell enough tickets.

I always wondered what happened to Excalibur, and was surprised to find this exhibit at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

I now vaguely remember Excalibur but had more or less forgotten about it till now! - (and Freddy Frith as well). Coming up with a 'world beater' wouldn't have been easy in those days, in the face of the Japs!
Who did win the MGP by the way? - was it Dan Shorey?

I was quite impressed with the quality of that V4 effort - wonder what Villiers though!

Talking of supercharging, have a look here, very interesting! (may have been posted somewhere on this forum before ).
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html

tjbw

29th June 2016, 01:03

I vaguely remember Excalibur but had totally forgotten about it! - (and Freddy Frith as well). Coming up with a 'world beater' wouldn't have been easy in those days, in the face of the Japs!
Who did win the MGP by the way? - was it Dan Shorey?

I was quite impressed with the quality of that V4 effort - wonder what Villiers though!

Talking of supercharging, have a look here, very interesting! (may have been posted somewhere on this forum before ).
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html

Dan's best result in MGP was 9th, in 1960, though his best IOM TT result was 6th!

[url]http://www.manxgrandprix.org/Mountain-Course-Database/competitors.aspx?ride_id=1992[/url

Villiers bought the V4 bike for evaluation, I'm not sure when it was first described as a Villiers though.

http://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/news/villiers-mystery-solved

Good supercharging site, thanks.

tjbw

29th June 2016, 13:43

This was built in 1948 by Wooler, in West London.

WilDun

29th June 2016, 23:13

This was built in 1948 by Wooler, in West London.

The Wooler came up early on in this thread, I reckon it was a bit complicated and had too many linkages etc. to go wrong, but those were the days when a lot of things were being tried and they were all very interesting.

tjbw

30th June 2016, 01:47

The Wooler came up early on in this thread, I reckon it was a bit complicated and had too many linkages etc. to go wrong, but those were the days when a lot of things were being tried and they were all very interesting.

Just had a quick scan of first 13 pages. Some amazing stuff there, including Neander which I also posted recently!

No need for me to post TS3 or Napier Deltic :)

tjbw

30th June 2016, 02:45

There was talk of it in a book I read with hopes of 40-50 hp at some astonishingly high revs in 125 form.
I posted something about it on ESE but no one could add much or had heard of it..
I think he swallowed a whole heap of lottery development funds for his project world beater.........

I'd love to see the internals, or even drawings. IIRC it was to feature sleeve valves, as used on some radial aero engines, and on some Bar and Stroud motorcycle engines.

WilDun

30th June 2016, 12:15

No need for me to post TS3 or Napier Deltic :)

Well, I must say that the Napier Deltic and the Commer TS3 were amongst the most successful, but we must admit they owed their existence to some original German designs (Deltic owes it's existence to the Junkers Jumo designed for E-Boats and the TS3 to Sultzer).

I used to sneak into the local scrapyard on the way home from school most days (the teachers etc would have frowned on me for being so "common") where there were two Bristol Hercules engines from a crashed Wellington bomber lying on the heap just begging to be taken away and preserved. They were amongst a tangled pile of broken aircraft, this particular one had crashed during WW2 into a cliff face just a few miles away and had hung there for well over 10 years before being removed.
I was always trying to find a way of getting them home but I was only 14 or 15 at the time so didn't ever stand much chance of that! - pity to see them going to the pot, but that's how it was I guess. :weep:

tjbw

30th June 2016, 13:13

Well, I must say that the Napier Deltic and the Commer TS3 were amongst the most successful, but we must admit they owed their existence to some original German designs (Deltic owes it's existence to the Junkers Jumo designed for E-Boats and the TS3 to Sultzer).

I used to sneak into the local scrapyard on the way home from school most days (the teachers etc would have frowned on me for being so "common") where there were two Bristol Hercules engines from a crashed Wellington bomber lying on the heap just begging to be taken away and preserved. They were amongst a tangled pile of broken aircraft, this particular one had crashed during WW2 into a cliff face a few miles away and had hung there for well over 10 years before being removed.
I was always trying to find a way of getting them home but I was only 14 or 15 at the time so didn't ever stand much chance of that! - pity to see them going to the pot, but that's how it was I guess. :weep:

Well there's a coincidence, the sleeve valve photo on my previous message is a Bristol Hercules two row 14 cylinder radial engine, which is on display at Brooklands Museum!

tjbw

30th June 2016, 14:55

Here's another X4, this one is the JJ2S X4 500, under development in Poland.

It features an inverted piston with ports which give it functionality similar to a sleeve valve. I think this configuration was first suggested by Draper, and Flettner has tried something similar.

The JJ2S pistons are also stepped, to provide primary compression. Drawings and animation showing the operating sequence are here:

http://jjsdesign.net/jj2s/zasadadzialania.html

Some more info here:

http://www.jjsdesign.net/jj2sx4500/jj2sx4500.html

Some of the drawings show a single cylinder engine with conventional crankshaft, however, the X4 has different arrangement "Both pistons, each mutually opposite pair of cylinders are mounted at the ends of a double yoke. The two double yokes, arranged mutually at right angles, extend over a common, but a double eccentric, which is mounted on a single crank pin of the crankshaft normal. Stroke journal is only half of the piston stroke, which the other half takes over and performs eccentric. With a small radius crank crankshaft becomes very compact and rigid. It should be emphasized that the pair of eccentric strength compensates for one pair of cylinders in relation to a pair of second, and as a consequence, decreases with increasing rotation of the crank pin load. There is therefore a, the engine is particularly suitable for operation at very high speeds"

I didn't see any updates during last 3 years! I hope they didn't run into problems.

Muciek

30th June 2016, 19:34

tjbw

1st July 2016, 12:58

http://www.jjsdesign.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29108&sid=7a1ee0220b331c7f4e3e09f938dbfc64

Here are more info about 1cyl version, there are videos and other stuff. There is no progress about 500 because there is no money to develop this further right now...

Thanks Muciek, I was looking for the photos of machined piston and other parts, and found some of them again with link on that page:

http://jjsdesign.pl/jj2swg125/index.html

WilDun

1st July 2016, 23:56

Here's another X4, this one is the JJ2S X4 500, developed in Poland.

It features an inverted piston with ports which give it functionality similar to a sleeve valve. I think this configuration was first suggested by Draper, and Flettner has tried something similar.

I didn't see any updates during last 3 years! I hope they didn't run into problems.

An amazing piece of machinery, quite complicated and a little bulky (in a funny sort of way). Still haven't studied it enough to get my head around the crank setup but at a glance it seems to have similarities to the "PAUT ENGINE" (which I brought up way back) - just about the best animation I've seen to date - if nothing else!
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I say a good animation is worth a thousand pictures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqJchMWiqoE

Frits Overmars

2nd July 2016, 10:46

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I say a good animation is worth a thousand pictures. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqJchMWiqoEI'd say at 24 frames per second that would be a rather short animation.
Joking apart, it's an interesting video.
Nice to see how those 180° crank throws serve a 4x90° hypocycloid engine (sort of; each 90° angle is between a pumping cylinder and a working cylinder).
I wonder how long before Flettner builds a 90° V-twin along these lines.

Ocean1

2nd July 2016, 12:09

I'd say at 24 frames per second that would be a rather short animation.
Joking apart, it's an interesting video.
Nice to see how those 180° crank throws serve a 4x90° hypocycloid engine (sort of; each 90° angle is between a pumping cylinder and a working cylinder).
I wonder how long before Flettner builds a V-twin along these lines.

I'm wondering why they didn't build an epicyclic reduction right at the end of the crank.

Maybe the revs aren't that high anyway. Maybe the end use doesn't warrant it....

WilDun

2nd July 2016, 12:56

I wonder how long before Flettner builds a 90° V-twin along these lines.

Yes, I'd say a V2 would be a more suitable arrangement for a bike, and if anyone here is going to do that in this country it'll be Neil!
Of course I would do it if I had the time, - but thinking about it takes up much precious time, so that puts me out! :msn-wink:

husaberg

2nd July 2016, 19:03

Here's a V4 engine. It has 1 crankshaft, two crankpins, 4 conrods, but only 1 carb. This is on display at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

I've got a writeup on that from Motor Cycling, Jan, 1963 that i've been threatening to send to husa as it's too big for me to scan. Has cutaways and crank pics too. Not a converted RG500 - but clever given what he had to work with...Builder was B W J Hindes AMI Mech E complete with 'tach and pipe.
There's another Brit 2 stroke four i must hunt out and send both over to Husa.
The second four is also supercharged like this one...

The Villiers 4 I vaguely remember from somewhere.........
Send it or a photocopy ya chicken.

Here is what Grumph sent me.
Apologies I was in a bit of a hurry to glue it together, as I only have a A4 scanner. I might tidy it up later
or find a A3 scanner, The original is a double A3 spread.
click on the attachment 3 times to supersize it.
322688

WilDun

2nd July 2016, 21:03

Here is what Grumph sent me.

Husa / Grumph, That's a pretty good article (and drawings), pity the British industry was almost on the way out then - that could well have been the start of something new. The fact that it was a gradual sort of development using available parts and not an out and out attempt to build a world beater would have stood it in great stead.

husaberg

2nd July 2016, 22:48

Husa / Grumph, That's a pretty good article (and drawings), pity the British industry was almost on the way out then - that could well have been the start of something new. The fact that it was a gradual sort of development using available parts and not an out and out attempt to build a world beater would have stood it in great stead.

Well Will, here is some more.
Also courtesy of Grumph.

Last one I never knew the 4T viliers had a piston ring centre lab seal........

husaberg

2nd July 2016, 22:55

Plus a rather interesting one a 500 Triumph twin converted to a blown 2 stroke.

WilDun

3rd July 2016, 00:20

Makes me feel old looking at those ideas which were interesting at the time!
The 4T Villiers and the Ariel Arrow of the same era only produced 17BHP whereas my Suzuki T20 (250cc) produced I think 29 BHP, although I suspect it would have been hopless without it's 6 speed box! - it had to be revved.
In those days it had become unfashionable to have a bike without a narrow power band, so those engines didn't really stand a chance of making it!
It's really the whims of all the young guys that govern the sale of bikes, not good design and modest but manageable (sensible)power!
Normally on the T20 if I wanted to pass on the open road I had to change down two gears before opening the throttle! but it was fast for a 250.
The article on the TD1C Yamaha and the Suzuki T20 was very good and I remember the vibration, the fading front brake, and the bendy frame (plus bendy forks which juddered when I braked hard) - all exactly as they describe it, but I did learn to let myself go, instead of trying to fight it and somehow it managed to get round the corners quite fast, but it also threw me a couple of times too!

EDIT - Vaguely remember reading about that "Triumph" two stroke too!

Grumph

3rd July 2016, 06:09

Will - Villiers simply would not see the writing on the wall. The world was looking for lightweight performance two strokes and Villiers kept with ride to work putterers. Many, many people were getting quite good power out of Villiers engines but the factory simply weren't interested.
Motocross was booming - which would last for a long time - and their motors were being used as the base for Greeves - even if most of the Villiers parts were tossed away...Still no interest.
The Starmaker was their last effort at catching that market. Too late to save them. Good effort though, well made even if it's short of transfer area.
Too little too late.

In retrospect, that four was never going to be a commercial proposition, but it should have sparked some ideas in Villiers design office....

WilDun

3rd July 2016, 09:19

Well Will, here is some more.
Also courtesy of Grumph.
Last one I never knew the 4T viliers had a piston ring centre lab seal........

I think that the Yamahas had labryinth centre seals, but I also think that the piston ring type seal on the 4T was different to a labyrinth seal, - I could be wrong of course. :)

GRUMPH, Yeah you are right, those guys in the British design offices just wanted to cruise along on past achievements and didn't expect that the Japs would amount to anything, then it was suddenly all over!
Those early Jap bikes had horsepower to spare (and no bloody torque) but we were all so happy with high revs and six speed gearboxes that we didn't really notice.
The 500cc H1 Kawasaki and the 750cc H2 were the ultimate in unmanageable street bikes, but they did thrill (and kill) us young "tossers" so that was the end of the British bikes.

tjbw

3rd July 2016, 11:22

Husa / Grumph, That's a pretty good article (and drawings),
...

I was also admiring the V4 drawing, wondering how many hours Brian Hatton spent on it.

Grumph

3rd July 2016, 11:52

I was also admiring the V4 drawing, wondering how many hours Brian Hatton spent on it.

Typical of the technical illustrations you'd see in the Brit mags in the 50's and 60's.
I've got a very small reproduction of one of the Ferrari SOHC V12 - circa 1952.
Pretty sure i've seen the full size version in Auto Restorations in ChCh - it must have been of assistance when doing Gavin Bain's ex Rosier F1 car..
There's a section in a book I have - the Grand prix car by Pomeroy - which is preliminary sketches by Caldwell for all the examples drawn in the book.
Amazing stuff.

husaberg

3rd July 2016, 11:58

I think that the Yamahas had labryinth centre seals, but I also think that the piston ring type seal on the 4T was different to a labyrinth seal, - I could be wrong of course. :)

GRUMPH, Yeah you are right, those guys in the British design offices just wanted to cruise along on past achievements and didn't expect that the Japs would amount to anything, then it was suddenly all over!
Those early Jap bikes had horsepower to spare (and no bloody torque) but we were all so happy with high revs and six speed gearboxes that we didn't really notice.
The 500cc H1 Kawasaki and the 750cc H2 were the ultimate in unmanageable street bikes, but they did thrill (and kill) us young "tossers" so that was the end of the British bikes.

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others,
322714

or a piston ring or rings in a groove
The first use of the piston ring seal i have seen was in the DKW triples.
pics to follow.
Note Teflon has likely rendered them not a HP saver.
322713322712322711

PS will it wasn't the design offices it was the company directors and shareholders the brits had amazing designers, that were not able to build anything that would require money spent on retooling the factories.
Have a look at all the worlds motorsports they are designed and for a major part built in the UK.

WilDun

3rd July 2016, 13:00

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others .............
or a piston ring or rings in a groove
PS will it wasn't the design offices it was the company directors and shareholders the brits had amazing designers, that were not able to build anything that would require money spent on retooling the factories.

Yes, Husa I think you've probably got it all spot on, (ie the seal thing) and as far as the directors were concerned, they were just pleasing the shareholders and not on their guard!
Thing is, the Brits at that time were still more or less still bankrupt from WW2 and had just lost their Empire but the people just didn't realise it!
The Japs and Germans by comparison were 'on the pigs back' because the Americans invested money in those two countries, ie money which the Poms and Russians had to pay back to them for all the gear they borrowed during WW2. - funny old world!

Frits Overmars

4th July 2016, 00:02

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others, or a piston ring or rings in a groove.You can easily build you own labyrinth with a stack of shims. Jan Thiel used this system in the Garelli 250cc V-twin. The whole shim package was only 5 mm thick.
322755322756

husaberg

4th July 2016, 00:30

You can easily build you own labyrinth with a stack of shims. Jan Thiel used this system in the Garelli 250cc V-twin. The whole shim package was only 5 mm thick.
322755322756

Well that's very neat and clever. I don't think I have ever seen that many pictures of that engine at all. Other than that ones you posted their with Jan.
are their anymore floating about.

Frits Overmars

4th July 2016, 02:41

Well that's very neat and clever. I don't think I have ever seen that many pictures of that engine at all. Other than that one you posted their with Jan. are their anymore floating about.No, not many Husa. But here are a few.
322774 322775 322776322777 322778 322779

husaberg

6th July 2016, 20:09

No, not many Husa. But here are a few.

I found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=55&v=L4Jmq7i6dOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ua-SKYV4eY

this one just for the noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LurQm42kLfc

tjbw

7th July 2016, 13:54

ken seeber

7th July 2016, 22:16

husaberg

7th July 2016, 22:28

Great pictures and stories.
The labyrinth seals thing got me thinking. I wonder if one could use these in an external situation, ie under the magneto side, rather than just between cylinders? Maybe also, could they be used under the primary drive gear? If it does leak a bit either way, maybe use 2 stroke oil in the gearbox and use this as the engine lubricant supply or part supply. Possibly a tad hard to control though.

Ken have a look at the woolley 50cc Honda seal from the greeves, its exactly what it was used for. It saved 2.5 hp (out of 30HP)and lasted forever compared to the high friction gator seals of the time that lasted a meating or two.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1130983699#post1130983699

ken seeber

7th July 2016, 22:37

Good one Husa, missed that one. Hmmmm.....

WilDun

8th July 2016, 09:34

Here's a very odd looking machine.

It has 840cc V twin diesel engine (smoke generator). Both wheels have hydrostatic drive, and it also features air suspension, and twin turbochargers.

Yes ........well,......... what can you say? ......... except maybe "why doesn't he clean his air filters?" some great ideas there of course, but (to me at least) definitely a waste of his talents, - every one to his own I guess!
:rolleyes:

pete376403

9th July 2016, 23:53

On "Stuff" there is an article and video of a NZbuilt replica of a Gnome rotary aircraft engine. At least three have been built so far, $82k if you want one.

husaberg

10th July 2016, 00:03

Good one Husa, missed that one. Hmmmm.....

Telsa invented a one way valve with no moving parts at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYlP5TEKf2w

Frits Overmars

10th July 2016, 02:16

I am a great admirer of Nikola Tesla, so naturally I stumbled upon his one way valve. The problem was making it. An old lathe was all I had at my disposal at the time,
so I came up with the contraption shown below.
The red and orange parts just fit together. The red center part is held in place by some pieces of welding rod (blue in the drawing).
The drawing shows a three-step valve but you can add as many steps as you want. The lengths and diameters in the drawing were meant for the 12 mm induction tract of an F3D model engine; you can rescale them at will. The inscribed angle dimensions are independent of the diameters.
Don't be put off by the two decimals; that's just what the drawing program spat out.
322974
Husa's video concludes with the remark "Imagine if this valve was in all the water pumps, I thinks it's safe to say they would still be working to this day".
Well, I think it's safe to say that whoever wrote this, didn't understand how the Tesla valve works and didn't even understand how the pictured water pump works.
The Tesla valve depends on accumulated pressure losses caused by the internal flow reversals and collisions. But if the flow velocity nears zero, so will the pressure losses. If you apply Tesla valves in that water pump, the water will trickle down and when you want to pump, you will first need to prime the pump with water (where from??) before it can generate sufficient suction pressure to pull water up.

lohring

10th July 2016, 03:08

ken seeber

10th July 2016, 15:27

I guess this fluid diode idea inspired these valves. Have no idea as to whether they are any value or not.

https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/

husaberg

10th July 2016, 15:30

Ocean1

10th July 2016, 16:19

A long time ago when electronic devices had discrete components. several companies thought fluid logic devices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics) could compete. The Tesla valve is an example of a fluidic diode. I still have some catalogues from Pitney Bowes and Johnson Controls showing their devices. They envisioned improved machine control systems compared to the miniature mechanical air logic valves (http://www.clippard.com/products/valves) that were used. The mechanical systems survived but the fluidic devices are limited to things like pulsating shower heads these days.

Lohring Miller

I had a bit to do with pneumatic digital logic systems for vacuum packaging equipment, which was foamed and high pressure washed every day. The same equipment still uses it, for the same reasons.

http://innovistasensors.crouzet-control.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/library/pneumatics/pneumatic-logic-components.pdf

I've also worked with some of those US made solid state digital logic pneumatic circuit blocks, very much based on Tesla principles for sequential "or", "not" etc elements. Haven't seen them for twenty years or more. Don't want to see them either, they were appallingly unreliable.

lohring

11th July 2016, 02:38

I've also worked with some of those US made solid state digital logic pneumatic circuit blocks, very much based on Tesla principles for sequential "or", "not" etc elements. Haven't seen them for twenty years or more. Don't want to see them either, they were appallingly unreliable.

That was my observation as well. However, it should be interesting as a diode in an engine intake system. Has anyone actually tried the reedless intake (https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/)?

Lohring Miller

WilDun

12th July 2016, 08:59

Has anyone actually tried the reedless intake?
Lohring Miller

I vaguely remember a stationary engine built on that principle, - can't remember what it was called though :facepalm: - it'll come back to me sometime (if Husa or somebody doesn't come up with it first!).
Such an engine might have possibilities as a generator engine in a hybrid setup.

husaberg

12th July 2016, 16:44

I vaguely remember a stationary engine built on that principle, - can't remember what it was called though :facepalm: - it'll come back to me sometime (if Husa or somebody doesn't come up with it first!).
Such an engine might have possibilities as a generator engine in a hybrid setup.

That was my observation as well. However, it should be interesting as a diode in an engine intake system. Has anyone actually tried the reedless intake (https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/)?

Lohring Miller

Google Frits Overmars 24/7
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page520
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117p480-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117p450-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5121p680-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-4
plus there was old concrete mixer and other stationary engines etc engines that ran at constant speed.
The reeds are only needed to start and get it into the power band
If I recall correctly there was talk of a compressor being used for the old stationary engine I think Fletner mentioned it.
Frits intended on just tucking the reeds out of the way on a pivot.
I think he came upon the idea when a disk valve failed but the engine still ran perfectly as long as it was reving near peak speed.

Frits Overmars

12th July 2016, 23:23

Google Frits Overmars 24/7... The reeds are only needed to start and get it into the power band... Frits intended on just tucking the reeds out of the way on a pivot.
I think he came upon the idea when a disk valve failed but the engine still ran perfectly as long as it was reving near peak speed.Perfectly would be stretching it. The carburation and the crankcase volume, inlet tract diameter and length were tuned for a 140°/65° disk timing (remember, this was 1973) and when that disk stuck open the carburation became a lot less than perfect. But it was still good enough to get me back to the pits.

husaberg

13th July 2016, 16:34

Perfectly would be stretching it. The carburation and the crankcase volume, inlet tract diameter and length were tuned for a 140°/65° disk timing (remember, this was 1973) and when that disk stuck open the carburation became a lot less than perfect. But it was still good enough to get me back to the pits.

Shucks I was only trying to remember what you said Frits,but it turns out my memory is less than perfect more like adequate. The same as how it ran.
I never even used the search function.
I do remember you saying you and other tuners ran some pretty extreme inlet timing on piston port engines maybe Bultacco or something, what were the numbers?
Whats the limit before it won't start or run without running the engine very fast
I think it was in reply to me quoting some Helmet Fauth text about his Phil Reads TZ

Frits Overmars

13th July 2016, 22:00

I do remember you saying you and other tuners ran some pretty extreme inlet timing on piston port engines maybe Bultacco or something, what were the numbers?So your memory is not so bad after all. To my knowledge it was indeed Bultaco who used the most extreme inlet timing: 240°
(a 30 mm carb on a 250 cc engine; something had got to give and in this case it was the piston intake side skirt length).

Whats the limit before it won't start or run without running the engine very fast.This is one of those seemingly simple but unanswerable questions. There's no limit as such; things get gradually worse. And it's not just the timing but also the crankcase volume, the carb diameter, the inlet tract length and the skill of the mechanic. But roughly I'd say that south of 190° things are becoming touchy.

husaberg

13th July 2016, 22:16

So your memory is not so bad after all. To my knowledge it was indeed Bultaco who used the most extreme inlet timing: 240°
(a 30 mm carb on a 250 cc engine; something had got to give and in this case it was the piston intake side skirt length).
This is one of those seemingly simple but unanswerable questions. There's no limit as such; things get gradually worse. And it's not just the timing but also the crankcase volume, the carb diameter, the inlet tract length and the skill of the mechanic. But roughly I'd say that south of 190° things are becoming touchy.

Yes sorry it was a bit ambiguous.
If you recall a while back you said about running a two sided belt to run the counterbalancer in the correct direction without a set of gears. I was already going down that path anyway, but the trouble I face is those toothed belts manufacturer's normally suggest to have half the number of teeth in contact with the belt. My line of thought is if it is not the driver (just an ancillary) a few teeth in mesh should be all right its maybe wishful thinking but any suggestions or knowledge of who to ask?

Frits Overmars

14th July 2016, 01:22

a while back you said about running a two sided belt to run the counterbalancer in the correct direction without a set of gears. I was already going down that path anyway, but the trouble I face is those toothed belts manufacturer's normally suggest to have half the number of teeth in contact with the belt. My line of thought is if it is not the driver (just an ancillary) a few teeth in mesh should be all right its maybe wishful thinking but any suggestions or knowledge of who to ask?Driving a balance shaft won't require much power unless the crankshaft rpm changes at a big rate, like when shifting down. Then the balance shaft has to follow suit and its inertia is not negligible, so the belt may see some fierce jerks.
Toothed belts are categorized according to the amount of power they can transmit and for the irregularity of the driving force (electromotor at one end of the scale, foul-stroke single at the other end). So don't disregard the manufacturer's advice too lightly.
Chances are that you will need a tension wheel somewhere on the belt; you can use that too increae the number of teeth in contact.
323077

WilDun

15th July 2016, 11:47

Driving a balance shaft won't require much power unless the crankshaft rpm changes at a big rate, like when shifting down. Then the balance shaft has to follow suit and its inertia is not negligible, so the belt may see some fierce jerks.

I see that a lot of car manufacturers have gone back to chain drive camshafts and of course the chain is automatically two sided and suitable for the situation that Husa is talking about. They also often give plenty of warning of when they are going to give.(more than you can say for a belt!).
Taglioni was very much opposed to the use of cam belts on the Ducati but was overruled (but then of course, he was advocating gears). Look at the huge amounts of torque and jerks chains can deal with on motocrossers and road racing final drives today and if they are being properly lubricated inside an engine, then what is so wrong with using chains anyway? - maybe belts are just cool and fashionable - or cheaper?

husaberg

15th July 2016, 16:29

Driving a balance shaft won't require much power unless the crankshaft rpm changes at a big rate, like when shifting down. Then the balance shaft has to follow suit and its inertia is not negligible, so the belt may see some fierce jerks.
Toothed belts are categorized according to the amount of power they can transmit and for the irregularity of the driving force (electromotor at one end of the scale, foul-stroke single at the other end). So don't disregard the manufacturer's advice too lightly.
Chances are that you will need a tension wheel somewhere on the belt; you can use that too increae the number of teeth in contact.

Yes I find the belt manufacturers are very conservative though, for instance the recommended HP for one of their belts is actually about 20 percent of what they are actually used for in classic racing though with 360 cranked 900cc twins:)
So I don't mind the prospect of short service intervals, Also belts are cheap (Maybe not so much the two sided oddball ones I have selected though.)
I am pretty sure I will have to use a couple of idler as the spacing I intend using is pretty short and the belts are not available in too many different lengths like a chain.

I see that a lot of car manufacturers have gone back to chain drive camshafts and of course the chain is automatically two sided and suitable for the situation that Husa is talking about. They also often give plenty of warning of when they are going to give.(more than you can say for a belt!).
Taglioni was very much opposed to the use of cam belts on the Ducati but was overruled (but then of course, he was advocating gears). Look at the huge amounts of torque and jerks chains can deal with on motocrossers and road racing final drives today and if they are being properly lubricated inside an engine, then what is so wrong with using chains anyway? - maybe belts are just cool and fashionable - or cheaper?

Chains are loud and when they break they cause pandemonium, smashing all sorts of stuff.
Gears are a better and more accurate timing wise than either belts or chains , but are a more expensive solution for both primary and cam drive.
As far as I am aware the efficiency index goes belt most efficient, then chain then gear. initially at least.
Both gears and chain need lubrication. Whilst many old bikes had open primary drives and were designed for drip feed ala Manx Norton etc...but chain actually lose efficiency during a race and as they wear.
I want to use belt as its supposedly more efficient by a % or two than either gear or chain, plus due to me wanting to use a factory rather than self made crankshaft and avoid the possible cost and complication of gears.
I also want to convert to a dry clutch, thus the added benefit is less seals saving width and complication. (Note the mag is on the primary drive side)
The belt also works as a shock absorber and makes a nice whirring noise. Plus its different.

WilDun

15th July 2016, 18:34

Chains are loud and when they break they cause pandemonium, smashing all sorts of stuff.
Gears are a better and more accurate timing wise than either belts or chains , but are a more expensive solution for both primary and cam drive.

I guess as a balance shaft drive it won't do a lot of damage if it breaks (a belt that is) but used as a cam drive/timing belt in a road going machine (as opposed to racing) where the belt isn't necessarily changed exactly when it should be, there is always the danger of it suddenly breaking without warning (did happen to me) and will probably cause untold chaos inside the head! whereas the good old chain will complain for a long time before letting go! - matter of preference I guess. :rolleyes:

tjbw

1st August 2016, 13:14

husaberg

1st August 2016, 15:43

Grumph

1st August 2016, 19:24

Here's another heavy machine, with 5L Rolls Royce V twin engine.

Built in Australia in 1982 by Lucky Keizer. This has 2 cylinders from a Rolls Royce Merlin 27-liter v12 engine, which was found in an abandoned Mustang fighter plane. Keizer added nitrous injection and a supercharger!

Pretty sure the engine work was done by a Kiwi I used to race against back in the day...Now chief engineer at the Alpine Fighter Collection in Wanaka. If i remember right the gearbox originally used was a Holden 3 speed they reckoned had done a million miles already - but was at least available.
If Husa finds the article we'll know. I think there were several writeups as it got built.

Edit - Ray Mulqueen. came up from Dunedin with a 750 Domiracer with a home made disc front brake. Used Cessna bits i think. Had some epic braking duels with him on the manx at ruapuna 71 - 72.

WilDun

1st August 2016, 20:19

Pretty sure the engine work was done by a Kiwi I used to race against back in the day...Now chief engineer at the Alpine Fighter Collection in Wanaka. If i remember right the gearbox originally used was a Holden 3 speed they reckoned had done a million miles already - but was at least available.
If Husa finds the article we'll know. I think there were several writeups as it got built.

Not sure, but it was probably built from the Packard version of the RR Merlin as most of the later Mozzies used those (also the Mustangs).

husaberg

1st August 2016, 20:29

Not sure, but it was probably built from the Packard version of the RR Merlin as most of the later Mozzies used those (also the Mustangs).

Either way the power would be adequate

Grumph

2nd August 2016, 06:51

Either way the power would be adequate

Not really. VERY heavy, low revving - around 3500 would be tops - but plenty of torque.

I seem to remember reading that they added the NO to pep it up a bit.
I think Keizer used it to do tyre smoking demo runs at a few drag strips - not fast but plenty of smoke...

husaberg

2nd August 2016, 15:21

Not really. VERY heavy, low revving - around 3500 would be tops - but plenty of torque.

I seem to remember reading that they added the NO to pep it up a bit.
I think Keizer used it to do tyre smoking demo runs at a few drag strips - not fast but plenty of smoke...

I think you missed the joke....

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1959-1968-rolls-royce-phantom-v.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H70OqfF0AWY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgxDwbDXCBw

http://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/08/19/4296075.htm
Well worth a look
http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/vtwinspecials.html
http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/vtwininnovators2.html

Grumph

2nd August 2016, 17:03

Oh yes, the old Rolls Royce "the power is adequate, sir" answer..

If you live long enough your work pops up everywhere...Looking through the V twin link you put up, there's Eurodave's Kohler/BMW...For which i mounted the engine and gearbox - and inserted the Honda swingarm he wanted to use....had to recon the box first though - and sort a clutch too.

husaberg

2nd August 2016, 17:39

Grumph

2nd August 2016, 19:20

I did see that and recognised the EuroDave moniker.
Faster than the Robin (or was it Fuji) diesel single that was arround as well I guess.

Last time i saw it,Dave was putting a small Roots blower on it. Ex toyota MR2 i think. I warned him splash lubrication and skimpy finning weren't a good mix with a blower....

tjbw

3rd August 2016, 12:57

...

http://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/08/19/4296075.htm
Well worth a look
http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/vtwinspecials.html
http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/vtwininnovators2.html

Lots of interesting stuff on those links:)

Didn't expect to see this giant machine though!

tjbw

3rd August 2016, 13:40

I saw somewhere a link to http://www.crossbreedcycles.co.uk which didn't open, however a search found http://www.crossbreedcycles.net/index.html which includes lots of good info on a Maserati V6 bike, and other goodies, e.g. Ducati desmo head on Harley!

WilDun

3rd August 2016, 19:44

Frits Overmars

4th August 2016, 00:11

Some excellent engineering there!Yes, a lot of nice detail solutions and a superb finishing. Nevertheless, in my opinion it failed to meet the objective "to build something compact and rideable..".

tjbw

4th August 2016, 05:32

Yes, a lot of nice detail solutions and a superb finishing. Nevertheless, in my opinion it failed to meet the objective "to build something compact and rideable..".

I guess you were not impressed by the Rolls Royce V twin. Every time it stopped he had to wait for someone to bring the starting motor and battery pack!

Mental Trousers

4th August 2016, 14:03

..... and other goodies, e.g. Ducati desmo head on Harley!

http://www.crossbreedcycles.net/desmohog.html

The first thing he says is Not sure what I was thinking when I came up with this idea. and I agree. But he follows it up with the best reason - I built it because I could.

Grumph

4th August 2016, 16:28

Not sure what I was thinking when I came up with this idea.[/i] and I agree. But he follows it up with the best reason - I built it because I could.

A more common reason was told to me by Ray Mulqueen when we discussed Lucky Keizer's V twin...."it seemed like a good idea after a couple of beers"...

husaberg

4th August 2016, 17:21

Yes, a lot of nice detail solutions and a superb finishing. Nevertheless, in my opinion it failed to meet the objective "to build something compact and rideable..".

Well, Its more compact than an actual Maserati:innocent:
But not as nice a job as the laverda version.

You can though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9EG3IiLMb4

I will say this though, who ever decided to rephase the crank to 120 degrees was a legend........
Imagine the effort to replicate the 1960's Triumph trident and rocket three and nearly every other 3 cylinder ever made's crank-phasing....

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=CNsRN9L5BYsC&pg=RA4-PA136&lpg=RA4-PA136&dq=Giulio+Alfieri+laverda&source=bl&ots=P9ETFMr1u3&sig=tQxeeoTWg-GxeCZDFDv8yOx2qbg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Pz5MUrX1Ecv_lAX0yoHgCA&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Giulio%20Alfieri%20laverda&f=false

I do still have the Classic racer article i could look for, if you are still not convinced

Thanks I often wonder if anyone does read them that's why i post the odd girl pic to see.
I have plenty more including the Lav V3 which i had posted before i think on ESE. Its mentioned but no pic in the Walker Italian book.
Interesting that i did fluff up the engine castings though as i forgot that Laverda's foundry cast the Masterati engines plus stuff for Guzzi etc

Grumph

4th August 2016, 19:32

husaberg

4th August 2016, 19:46

The Laverda foundry was obviously a busy place and did work for a lot of the Italian manufacturers.
The first laverda triple i had apart was a restoration and i wanted to restore the OE finish on the engine castings - a very pale green colour.
With the aid of the previously mentioned Ray Mulqueen whose area of expertise it is, we ID'd it as an obsolete NATO protective coating...which is no longer available as the chromates have gone green (yes, a pun...)
Ray reckoned that foundry had done the work for MV's Bell choppers sold to NATO forces and they'd probably used what they had in stock for their own work.

I read an interesting story the other day about Taglioni (ie mr Ducati desmo designer)
They were having a bit of trouble getting some race parts made, as the government was running Ducati (this seems to happen periodically with Italian firms esp Ducati)
He remembered what Enzo Ferrari had said to him, about the doors to Ferrari always being open for him (he was of course meaning a job offer)
So they rocked up to Modena on a Friday, asked to see Enzo and true to his words Enzo had the factory run around make up whatever Taglioni wanted, all at no cost.

ken seeber

4th August 2016, 23:46

WilDun

5th August 2016, 09:22

Lot's of good things here. Might be a nice engineering feature......... no-one currently seems to be striving to do it.

I don't think it could have been a success as far as being a race winner was concerned but it is definitely engineered well as far as compactness and looks are concerned and it's got to be just about the best sounding bike I have ever heard!
That's my opinion anyway - some people like the looks and sound of a Harley Davidson too, some the sound of a Manx Norton and some a V4 two stroke in full flight - every man to his own I guess!

I like them all! :yes:

Grumph

5th August 2016, 10:20

Lot's of good things here. That Laverda had a really long swing arm. In line with the countershaft so no centre distance change between sprockets? Might be a nice engineering feature, but maybe other factors (eg squat) override this as no-one currently seems to be striving to do it.

The trend has been toward longer swingarms for some time Ken. A lot of the late sports bikes have gone to stacked gearbox shafts to shorten the power unit and get the pivot further forward. I'm unsure of the geometrical advantages - but it does give more room for suspension linkages.
The once trendy pivot in line with the countershaft does seem to have been dropped as it doesn't have advantages in the real world.
Last summer I was looking at a gorgeous Spondon Suzuki someone rode out to the track. Magnificent workmanship - but a hell of a lot of trouble to go to just to get the pivot in line with the output shaft. Probably added about a thousand pounds to the price...

husaberg

5th August 2016, 18:16

I don't think it could have been a success as far as being a race winner was concerned but it is definitely engineered well as far as compactness and looks are concerned and it's got to be just about the best sounding bike I have ever heard!
That's my opinion anyway - some people like the looks and sound of a Harley Davidson too, some the sound of a Manx Norton and some a V4 two stroke in full flight - every man to his own I guess!

I like them all! :yes:

I think it was the clearly the fastest fowl stroke bike on the track from memory, even though it was almost completely undeveloped.
It needs to be considered it was being used in Endurance racing rather than sprints.
There was a lot to be said especially at that time with regards to reliability.
A heck of a lot of the developments at that time also came from the endurance racing fraternity.
All those bike have great sounds, Myself I would love to hear the sound of the Moto Guzzi V8 being used in anger and in person.

The trend has been toward longer swingarms for some time Ken. A lot of the late sports bikes have gone to stacked gearbox shafts to shorten the power unit and get the pivot further forward. I'm unsure of the geometrical advantages - but it does give more room for suspension linkages.
The once trendy pivot in line with the countershaft does seem to have been dropped as it doesn't have advantages in the real world.
Last summer I was looking at a gorgeous Spondon Suzuki someone rode out to the track. Magnificent workmanship - but a hell of a lot of trouble to go to just to get the pivot in line with the output shaft. Probably added about a thousand pounds to the price...

I believe the stacked gearbox's and long swingarms are more about getting better weight distribution
I believe theses changes are predominantly driven by tire and suspension developments.

Ps grumph next time you are working on Kevin Orrs MB100, tip the engine up so the cylinder is upright you will then notice it actually has a stacked gearbox not bad for a 1982 design aye

Grumph

5th August 2016, 19:24

All those bike have great sounds, Myself I would love to hear the sound of the Moto Guzzi V8 being used in anger and in person.

Not impressive - dead quiet actually. I had a talk with Sammy about alternative electronic ignitions he could have fitted without them being seen as it never ran on more than 7 when it was out here...The blown AJS V4 sounds like a smallblock Chev on straight pipes, very nice.

Ps grumph next time you are working on Kevin Orrs MB100, tip the engine up so the cylinder is upright you will then notice it actually has a stacked gearbox not bad for a 1982 design aye

Haven't worked on that for a couple of years. Given the long tracks over here now, it's parked up, probably permanently.

WilDun

6th August 2016, 12:13

All those bike have great sounds, Myself I would love to hear the sound of the Moto Guzzi V8 being used in anger and in person.

Did hear a short sound tract of the Guzzi in the IOM TT and it sounded like a Commodore going down Conrod Straight at Bathurst. - apparently they had two configurations of the crankshaft which produced quite different exhaust sounds.

Going back to the V twin (Merlin) bike, I see they reckoned it was from a 1938 model which would cancel out the possibility of it being from either a Mosquito or a Mustang as at that time they would probably only have been used in a Mk 1 Spitfire or Hurricane.

BTW, I would like to see it on the TT cuircit especially at Governor's or the Ramsey hairpin - they would have to have had their guys stationed there with starters all charged up and ready to go! ;)

Kickaha

6th August 2016, 12:15

Did hear a short sound tract of the Guzzi in the IOM TT and it sounded like a Commodore going down Conrod Straight at Bathurst. - apparently they had two configurations of the crankshaft which produced quite different exhaust sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TG7f2imRQo

Grumph

6th August 2016, 13:07

Going back to the V twin (Merlin) bike, I see they reckoned it was from a 1938 model which would cancel out the possibility of it being from either a Mosquito or a Mustang as at that time they would probably only have been used in a Mk 1 Spitfire or Hurricane.

If it was a '38 Merlin that would account for the willingness to cut it up. The early Rolls built ones were pretty well hand built and nothing fitted any other Merlin...It was only when Packard redrew it with modern tolerances for automatic machinery that it could be made in the numbers needed.
I seem to remember Ray saying to me that the early ones were now just display items. If you want to fly one it has to be a Packard as all the spares being made are for that version.

WilDun

6th August 2016, 22:30

If it was a '38 Merlin that would account for the willingness to cut it up.
I seem to remember Ray saying to me that the early ones were now just display items. If you want to fly one it has to be a Packard as all the spares being made are for that version.

Yep I'd agree with that, I've heard it said that Rolls got the "correct" tolerances on the crank journals by old experienced guys hand lapping them - no fancy expensive grinding gear then! Fact is, the Mustangs, the Canadian (and Aussie Mozzies) were not manufactured before about 1942. and all used the Packard version (but correct me if I'm wrong). - Why the hell am I going on about it? it is what it is! :rolleyes:

As for the Guzzi V8 in the video - sounded to me like it was using the single plane version of the crank, it didn't sound anything like the one I heard in the TT ( wish I could find that clip).

Grumph

8th August 2016, 16:35

husaberg

8th August 2016, 17:35

Got sent this pic today by a Kawasaki mad friend...
Husa has posted pics and details of the trapezoidal four motor but I'd never seen a pic of the complete bike.
Probably would have sold well if the Z hadn't been on the market.

I have, but not in colour
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc?p=1130655734#post1130655734

found this just now though
MOre later
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husaberg

8th August 2016, 19:49

some more

It's the trapezium four, factory code 602S (the KR750 triple was the 602). It was intended to be the successor to the triple. Neville Doyle built one bike for Greg Hansford, but although the bike was tested it was never raced. The collapse of F750 put an end to the project; the engines were sent back to Akashi and presumably destroyed. The frame, originally a KR750 frame that Neville modified to take the four, was reconverted to its original spec.
The engine had two crankshafts, and vibration was a problem; various crank phasings were tested but results unknown to me. The cylinders had reed intake valves (no power valves of course) and the gearbox six speeds. The engine had one lower crankcase half but two upper crankcase halves: one for the crankshafts and one for the gearbox, which could thus be opened without disturbing the crankshafts. This made changing ratios much easier.

According to the factory drawing of the cylinder the bore is 66 mm, which means the stroke is probably 54.4 mm, the same as that of the KR250, 350 and 500. Presumably conrods and big-end bearings are identical to those of the smaller KRs. There is one exhaust port with a width of 44 mm; four transfers fed from the crankcase; and two transfers fed from the intake similar to the TZ750's boost port. There's a 4 mm wide bridge in the intake port.
Unfortunately I have no drawings whatsoever of the engine's internals- piston, crankshafts, jackshafts, water pump parts, transmission bit and pieces etc etc, though the dry clutch was probably identical to that of the Triple and I think that most of the gearbox parts would have been taken from the Triple as well.

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