Oddball engines and prototypes

[tjbw]

...

Any engine two or for stroke will find its niche of course but lets not decide to put them in little compartments and specify what they should be used for! (let them find that niche themselves) unlike what H***a and D***A have gone and done for four strokes (eh Frits :msn-wink:).

...



Oh dear, I think I'm having a "senior moment" I can't think what a D***A might be.

[WilDun]

Oh dear, I think I'm having a "senior moment" I can't think what a D***A might be.

Ok I was just being stupid ....DORNA (who run Moto GP.)
Frits happened to say that on another two stroke forum, every time he typed in Honda it came up as H***A - apparently perceived as a dirty word!

DARYL, sorry I looked quickly at your photo and thought that it must have been the Mk1 version of the Welbike with the solid wheels etc.
I guess that must have been a younger you on the bike behind - was it another of your creations?

UPDATE - I see you discussed the last question - sorry.

[tjbw]

Ok I was just being stupid ....DORNA (who run Moto GP.)
Frits happened to say that on another two stroke forum, every time he typed in Honda it came up as H***A - apparently perceived as a dirty word!

...



Thanks Will, D***A is the dirtiest. There should be a rival organisation that promotes clean two strokes.

[husaberg]

I'm sure they could have entered local events, and won. However, on the GP circuit, winning against the NSU Rennmax twin, and also the Moto Guzzi, wouldn't have been easy.
We shall never know, i have a write up that was ib one of the first Classic racer mags Hele siad in hindsight the valve angles and head shape were all wrong.
MV and Gilerra were i think in those classes as well. Not to mention Benelli and Morini.
I have never seen much written about the weight it wouldn't surprise me if it was 50 pounds heavier than a Guzzi
The origional MC1 was drawn up by Hopwood but he buggered it up.

"Hopwood was a very stylish designer, but unfortunately his engines would sometimes not run. Bert's original design for the BSA MC1 racer could not have run, because the chain-driven OHC camshaft would not have been able to open the valves. This is not a minor mistake.

Doug had quite a CV. Included work on Douglas Dragonfly, Manx Norton, BSA MC1, Triumph Trident T150 triple, Norton Dominator twin, and, according to Wikipedia, he was also involved with the Norton Rotaries when he was in his 70s. He also had to put up with his bosses taking credit for his ideas, now that sounds familiar!

I'm wondering if his MC1 was the first racing bike to use a monoshock rear suspension. Why wasn't it used for subsequent frames. Did it look too much like a rigid back end?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/2715939/A-thoughtful-genius.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hele

I have a write up on Doug somewhare a quiet acheiver who often had to develop others designs A guy who would take the time and talk and listen to anyone in the factory.
Not at all like Edward Turner.
developed the "Daytona" race triumphs ie 500 that percy tate etc raced, the domi racer, modernised the Manx norton,
Did a clever desmo one as well.
329651
Also he had a great vision of a series of bikes all based on a modular 200-250 single right up to a V5.
Most of his career was spent just improving others designs and quicky developing engines like the BSA/Triumph three racers.
I am pretty sure he wanted to do a three 10 years before it actually happened.
He also built the Quadrant a 4 cylinder version of the triumph three in quiet without telling his bosses out of bits lying arround the factory.
,
https://normanhyde.co.uk/triumph-experimental-book-inc-uk-delivery.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorbikes/2715939/A-thoughtful-genius.html
In the Race chassis thread there is a cantalever frame from about 1928, HRD i think

[tjbw]

.....

In the Race chassis thread theye is a cantalever frame from about 1928, HRD i think

Thanks, found it, the suspension was patented by Phil Vincent, and used on his HRD and Vincent bikes.

http://www.voc.uk.com/net/docs/19.16/19-452-49.pdf

[husaberg]

Thanks, found it, the suspension was patented by Phil Vincent, and used on his HRD and Vincent bikes.

http://www.voc.uk.com/net/docs/19.16/19-452-49.pdf

Also the flying Merkel had it in the board track era.
I posted a pic somewhere?
this will do
329653329654

[Pursang]

Haha, nice find Daryl! This was my design in 1975 for a 180° parallel twin :D.
329644

So...with the benefit of 40 years of additional knowledge & experience, how do we deal with one exhaust port closing just as the other opens?

Changing the phasing, or the stroke, might allow one of them to charge the other, but not visa versa. So some extra power, but not double?

Asymmetrical piston motion through linkages has been looked at and rejected for adding too much complication.

That only leaves engines with 3 or more cylinders to provide the pulses.

Old Kwakas and Suzi triples did run OK(ish) with 3 into 1 chambers. Is there more development left here?

[Pursang]

Thanks, found it, the suspension was patented by Phil Vincent, and used on his HRD and Vincent bikes.

http://www.voc.uk.com/net/docs/19.16/19-452-49.pdf


There's always a way around a Patent.
329655

This is the legendary 1929 Brough named "Moby Dick".

Cantilevered rear, Under-slung, braced swingarm,
Multiple linkages, giving variable rate,
High and low speed adjustable dampers.

Fastest, privately owned, road legal, motorcycle in the world, in 1931.

Just STUNNING. :not:

[Pursang]

I bet you had some fun on your own minibike.

Every body had fun on that minibike.
Dozens of kids (and lots of Mums & Aunties) had their first solo motorcycle ride on it.


DARYL I guess that must have been a younger you on the bike behind - was it another of your creations? UPDATE - I see you discussed the last question - sorry.

Yep, that was a sweet, innocent, un-corrupted, younger, Me.

My Dad & I built the Victoria. 50cc 2T, 2 speed gearbox, 16" wheels, front and rear suspension & brakes.
Couldn't afford a Honda SL70, it was a pretty good substitute.
It lost a Lot of weight when I removed all the Cast Aluminium body work, (probably melted down Messerschmitts)
and it actually went pretty well. Even won some local races on it.
A Nicky scooter is probably a highly desirable classic nowadays, but back in 1970 it was unwanted, giveaway junk.
(and not as flash as the one in the picture).

329656329657

cheers, Daryl

[Grumph]

There's always a way around a Patent.

This is the legendary 1929 Brough named "Moby Dick".

Cantilevered rear, Under-slung, braced swingarm,
Multiple linkages, giving variable rate,
High and low speed adjustable dampers.

Fastest, privately owned, road legal, motorcycle in the world, in 1931.

Just STUNNING. :not:

Bentley and Draper rear suspension - Irving is rather caustic about the stiffness of that "braced" arm....

[Grumph]

So...with the benefit of 40 years of additional knowledge & experience, how do we deal with one exhaust port closing just as the other opens?

Changing the phasing, or the stroke, might allow one of them to charge the other, but not visa versa. So some extra power, but not double?

Asymmetrical piston motion through linkages has been looked at and rejected for adding too much complication.

That only leaves engines with 3 or more cylinders to provide the pulses.

Old Kwakas and Suzi triples did run OK(ish) with 3 into 1 chambers. Is there more development left here?

Having been the proud owner of a 70's Suzuki Fronte car - 500cc, 3 cylinders - I can state that the short 3 into 1 header arrangement does work to give more torque at low revs. By the time i'd finished with it, it wasn't too bad at high revs either, lol. I liked taking on Mini Coopers with it and in the end was lapping the local circuit as fast as some Lotus Cortinas. A Kart with a roof.

[WilDun]

Having been the proud owner of a 70's Suzuki Fronte car - 500cc, 3 cylinders - I can state that the short 3 into 1 header arrangement does work to give more torque at low revs. By the time i'd finished with it, it wasn't too bad at high revs either, lol. I liked taking on Mini Coopers with it and in the end was lapping the local circuit as fast as some Lotus Cortinas. A Kart with a roof.
I liked those little machines and heard of the 3 conjoined pipes being a huge benefit. I had aspirations of playing with a slightly munted engine I acquired, but family life got in the way (as it does). Think I have seen some You Tube videos on those things performing well - got to have been a helluva lot lighter than the minis?
Got any photos/details etc. on your machine?


There's always a way around a Patent.
This is the legendary 1929 Brough named "Moby Dick". Fastest, privately owned, road legal, motorcycle in the world, in 1931.
Bet John Britten was also inspired by that machine, right from the front suspension, to the rear suspension and the artistic licence employed in the design of the exhaust!


So...with the benefit of 40 years of additional knowledge & experience,...........Asymmetrical piston motion through linkages has been looked at and rejected for adding too much complication.
PURSANG
We all know that asymmetrical piston motion can be achieved by offsetting the crankshaft from the cylinder axis (within reason) and that there are a couple or three linkages which could conceivably be used to this end, - got any idea which ones were tried and rejected?

[Pursang]

PURSANG We all know that asymmetrical piston motion can be achieved by offsetting the crankshaft from the cylinder axis (within reason) and that there are a couple or three linkages which could conceivably be used to this end, - got any idea which ones were tried and rejected?

Back around November last year, in the Bucket Foundry thread, around post#2661. there was a bit of discussion on innovative cranks and linkage systems, for concentric piston motion, asymmetrical timing, etc.

Rejected 'mentally' (or at least no consensus traction), for failing to satisfy the KISS principle.

Cheers, Daryl.

[Grumph]

I liked those little machines and heard of the 3 conjoined pipes being a huge benefit. I had aspirations of playing with a slightly munted engine I acquired, but family life got in the way (as it does). Think I have seen some You Tube videos on those things performing well - got to have been a helluva lot lighter than the minis?
Got any photos/details etc. on your machine?

Kept nothing - got hitched around that time, moved etc etc...Took it to Ruapuna a couple of times and easily got down to 65 sec laps on the old short Ruapuna. At a car/bike day I got talking to some of the car guys asking what times they were doing. Lotus Cortinas were struggling to break 65 sec, LOL.
Great fun full noise in 3rd around the sweeper with the inside front about 6 inches off the ground.

It had a spur gear diff which was a bolted up sandwich of cast iron pieces. The outers had bearing carriers machined into them. The final straw was when it broke both carriers out of the top hat shaped pieces of CI. Sinclair Melbourne (marine engineers in Lyttelton) bronze welded everything up again and I machined it true - then got shot of it...

[Pursang]

2 Stroke triples..I had a Suzuki LJ50 4WD. Amazing little buzzer, It would climb near vertical walls, and when it couldn't climb anymore it wouldn't stall the engine, It just bounced up and down trying to throw itself further onward and upward.

Most performance exhausts for 3cyl two strokes use the standard, tried and proven- 3 individual chambers.

329662

Here is a well developed engine from some company with the experience & resources to fit whatever works best.
(At least until they started fitting 4 strokes instead):facepalm:

329659

And because this is the oddball engine thread....

329661

Excelsior Triple in a Berkley Sportscar.

Can any of the two stroke simulation programs handle a 3 into 1 pipe design?

Cheers, Daryl

[Pursang]

Can any of the two stroke simulation programs handle a 3 into 1 pipe design?

Especially if it looks something like this?

329666

Cheers, Daryl.

[husaberg]

There's always a way around a Patent.
329655

This is the legendary 1929 Brough named "Moby Dick".

Cantilevered rear, Under-slung, braced swingarm,
Multiple linkages, giving variable rate,
High and low speed adjustable dampers.

Fastest, privately owned, road legal, motorcycle in the world, in 1931.

Just STUNNING. :not:

Frits Egli controlled the patents for top braced monoshock swingarm , think Fireblade aad FZR750 etc.

At least up through the 1990's Yamaha and Honda had to pay him for everyone they made.

[ken seeber]

Talking about 3 into1 exhausts, at Orbital when we were first mucking about with a 1.2 litre 3 cyl outboard Suzuki DT85 engine, some of the guys tried various length separate headers. All seemed to work at various speeds, but gave really unacceptable power curve shapes. In the end, and things were getting a tad desperate, I made up a really simple, min volume collector, immediately after the power valves. This exited into a 2” downpipe. Instantly, more power and a really juicy power curve. Not as much peak power as a test single cyl engine with an expansion chamber, but more than any other thing that we tried. Ultimately the “collector” was faced with a full size downward facing catalyst brick, giving a quick catalyst warm up and still good results.

Here is a pic of a later 1.2 litre Orbital made automotive X engine (in my museum, being a bower bird) and the powervalve cover in place. Unfortunately I haven’t got an exhaust to go on, but I’m sure you get the idea.

329667

I’m also sure that Daryl will remember an aftermarket pipe which was around in Oz for the Suzuki GT750. This was called a Bromelich (?). It was a 3 into 1, similar to Daryl’s pic and probably a shitload cheaper than trying to replace the original system if you had gone down the road. Not sure of the performance, but they sounded really sweet.

[Niels Abildgaard]

Hello Ken Seeber

Is air injected two stroke still a candidate for the ultimative clean two stroke and if not why?
Aprilia made a 50 ccm moped with Orbit system.
My dream 100 horsepower,2400 rpm V2 engine needs fuel injection.

[Pursang]

Hi Ken, Yes the 3 into one on Waterbottles (and some 380's & 550's too) was quite common, Way Back When. Undoubtedly saved heaps of weight, bulk & $$$.

It's pretty presumptuous to think that we could come up with a new, improved, better design, than a Japanese motorcycle factory, or a serious research org. like Orbital.
But....everything must improve..or die out.

As far as a SIM goes, I've cobbled together this: 3cyls, 3 pipes.

329668 (I've been stuck inside all day, sitting out XTC Debbie.)

So, in order to use the exhaust pressure of one cylinder (#1), to increase the returning charge volume/pressure of another (#2 or #3), the system might need to be significantly different to the standard process.

a) To put more back into #1, we need to draw more charge out into the header/diffuser.

b) Instead of waiting for the pulse to travel to the baffle & return (with the resulting energy loss) we would like to use the pressure of another exhaust pulse.

c) That pulse will be 120 or 240 degrees before (or after) #1. Does this mean overall pipe length should/could be shorter than standard?

d) There will be lots of overlapping & crossing waves, but like voices across a noisy room, they don't necessarily interfere with each other.
Waves in a pipe are so-called "fixed amplitude" (fixed by the pipe diameter) but the changing dimensions of a chamber mess with that idea.

The whole harmonics of this process makes my head whirl, (feels like a hard drive flat out).:wacko:
So I'll sit back with a Rum and see what comes up.

Cheers, Daryl.

[ken seeber]

Hello Ken Seeber

Is air injected two stroke still a candidate for the ultimative clean two stroke and if not why?

My dream 100 horsepower,2400 rpm V2 engine needs fuel injection.

Niels, the Orbital air assisted system is still used by Tohatsu and Mercury and now in some military drones where they wanted to use a spark ignited engine, but had to use Jet Fuel A. Single fluids systems seem to need high and higher pressures to achieve adequate atomization, whereas the air assisted system was able to achieve this particular task.
For your dream engine, you have choices, both being to use hardware from either a Merc outboard (air assisted) engine or say a system from a DI jetski/snowmobile (single fluid). I'm sure either way it won't be a simple task in so many ways.

Daryl,
As to your Debbie induced exhaust study, I think you'll need some smart dude like Frits to comment on the design and simulation. Frits where are you ?

[Niels Abildgaard]

Hello Ken

The concept looks like this

http://i.imgur.com/SOqAT4f.jpg

100 hp 2400rpm start and 75 and 2200 cruise and no sneaky environmentalists around (Yet).


and if You were investor: Orbital or E-Tec?

[Frits Overmars]

Daryl, As to your Debbie induced exhaust study, I think you'll need some smart dude like Frits to comment on the design and simulation. Frits where are you ?I'd like to bite because there may be some good power to be found there, but the subject deserves more time than I can find at the moment.

[Pursang]

.
.
Frits' insights, when available, will be invaluable.

In the meantime, I'll have a bash. :bash:

From Kens experience (noted above) + the Yamaha snowmobile, etc. Short header pipes work OK.

Based on the other criteria, here is my first concept (version 1.0).

329671

Headers are shortish and tapered.
Actual dimensions will be adjusted to produce the draw through of sufficient fresh charge to achieve our increased power output goal.
For fuel efficiency, the dimensions must also prevent fresh charge escaping the header cone and getting into the pressure chamber.
It may be that a baffle or dam or a Tesla(ish) pocket or loop could be employed, if needed.

From the sim graph we see that there is a peak pressure rise at #2 exhaust about 15deg before #1TPC & 60deg before #1EPC (#3EP is closed)
The idea is to have this exhaust discharge pressurise the chamber, and push the charge in the #1 diffuser back into Cyl#1 before #1EPC.

The effect is less of a sonic wave reversing at the baffle cone and more of a resonant pressure pulse in the chamber.
As charge volume is returned to the Cylinder, exhaust chamber vol is increased, pressure falls and the system is ready for next exhaust pulse.

Chamber volume, nominal tuned length(s) & average chamber pressure (via stinger bleed off) will need to be refined by experimentation.
(Or, I guess, calculation by Helmholtz wizards)

Package is compact but not super cool looking, better for a snowmobile, scooter, or hidden by a fairing.
Once final dimensions are established it could be cast from aluminum, reducing noise and cost.

And that brings us Back........ to this: :blink:

329672 The Villiers Junior De-Luxe had an exhaust chamber just like that!!!

Cheers, Daryl.

[Michael Moore]

My late friend had a 3-1 on his Suzuki (in the USA they were called a Water Buffalo). I think it was a Strader. They were less expensive than 3-3 and made it much easier to have some decent ground clearance.

http://www.oldjapanesebikes.com/GT750_field_guide/page-A55#pipes

Has photos of various Suzuki exhausts.

IIRC a friend made a 3-1 for a SAAB triple and used very short head pipes, mentioning that he had to carve away metal towards the center of the head from next to the outside exhaust ports for clearance and then contort the center head pipe up and then down in order to get the short lengths he wanted.

cheers,
Michael

[Pursang]

.
329681

Cheers, Daryl.

[husaberg]

Talking about 3 into1 exhausts, at Orbital when we were first mucking about with a 1.2 litre 3 cyl outboard Suzuki DT85 engine, some of the guys tried various length separate headers. All seemed to work at various speeds, but gave really unacceptable power curve shapes. In the end, and things were getting a tad desperate, I made up a really simple, min volume collector, immediately after the power valves. This exited into a 2” downpipe. Instantly, more power and a really juicy power curve. Not as much peak power as a test single cyl engine with an expansion chamber, but more than any other thing that we tried. Ultimately the “collector” was faced with a full size downward facing catalyst brick, giving a quick catalyst warm up and still good results.

Here is a pic of a later 1.2 litre Orbital made automotive X engine (in my museum, being a bower bird) and the powervalve cover in place. Unfortunately I haven’t got an exhaust to go on, but I’m sure you get the idea.

329667

I’m also sure that Daryl will remember an aftermarket pipe which was around in Oz for the Suzuki GT750. This was called a Bromelich (?). It was a 3 into 1, similar to Daryl’s pic and probably a shitload cheaper than trying to replace the original system if you had gone down the road. Not sure of the performance, but they sounded really sweet.

I do know that for a foul stroke 3 or a twin turbo 2 a log manifold with the turbo opposite one of the ex ports is extremly efficient, as used on Nissian race motors at one time.
they look basically like this
329682
imagine the last bit on the end is not there unil i find a better pic

[MENTAL490]

Having been the proud owner of a 70's Suzuki Fronte car - 500cc, 3 cylinders - I can state that the short 3 into 1 header arrangement does work to give more torque at low revs. By the time i'd finished with it, it wasn't too bad at high revs either, lol. I liked taking on Mini Coopers with it and in the end was lapping the local circuit as fast as some Lotus Cortinas. A Kart with a roof.

OMG i remember one of my aunt's had a little brown Suzuki car, i used to call it the bumble bee because is sounded so weird. maybe thats why i fell in love with 2 strokes that and the sweet smell of synthetic 2 stroke oil buring

[Pursang]

I do know that for a foul stroke 3 or a twin turbo 2 a log manifold with the turbo opposite one of the ex ports is extremely efficient, as used on Nissan race motors at one time.

That works on the inlet side too, a simple log can produce better fuel distribution, & Cfm flow, than sweeping manifold designs.
The ultimate log manifold, the Tunnel Ram, flows better than individual throats per port (like Webers), at max power.


The 2Tx3 model is just a very rough illustration of what might possibly happen, in "real life".

The exhaust from #2 looks like it 'chases' the fresh charge back into cyl1, #3 into cyl2 and #1 into cyl3.
The actual rate and volume of the exhaust pulse expansion will be much more dramatic than shown.
It is likely to very quickly fill the entire exhaust chamber.
The return of the fresh charge back into the cylinder should be slower-ish, as shown, it is cooler and has significant mass & inertia.

Producing sufficient pressure rise and maintaining it for 'just' long enough, will be a key element of making this work.
In the layout shown, there might also be a regular expansion chamber effect, particularly between cyl1 & 3.
Only testing will see if this exists and if it helps or hinders the process.

If anyone is looking for a suitable 2-Stroke triple to experiment with, consider the Yamaha Waverunner engine:
1200cc, only 135bhp stock, (later ones have PV's). You might need to drag out that old Norton gearbox, from under the bench.

cheers, Daryl

[husaberg]

That works on the inlet side too, a simple log can produce better fuel distribution, & Cfm flow, than sweeping manifold designs.
The ultimate log manifold, the Tunnel Ram, flows better than individual throats per port (like Webers), at max power.


The 2Tx3 model is just a very rough illustration of what might possibly happen, in "real life".

The exhaust from #2 looks like it 'chases' the fresh charge back into cyl1, #3 into cyl2 and #1 into cyl3.
The actual rate and volume of the exhaust pulse expansion will be much more dramatic than shown.
It is likely to very quickly fill the entire exhaust chamber.
The return of the fresh charge back into the cylinder should be slower-ish, as shown, it is cooler and has significant mass & inertia.

Producing sufficient pressure rise and maintaining it for 'just' long enough, will be a key element of making this work.
In the layout shown, there might also be a regular expansion chamber effect, particularly between cyl1 & 3.
Only testing will see if this exists and if it helps or hinders the process.

If anyone is looking for a suitable 2-Stroke triple to experiment with, consider the Yamaha Waverunner engine:
1200cc, only 135bhp stock, (later ones have PV's). You might need to drag out that old Norton gearbox, from under the bench.

cheers, Daryl
One of my fav authors Julian edgar (even though hes an aussie:lol:)wrote about it in Fast fours years ago
he was doing a manifold for some Kei class Daihatsu mira mini van with a big turbo he had the volumes and all
not sure how it would translate to two stroke but still interesting.
I will see if i can dig it up.
he mentions it here
http://blog.autospeed.com/2004/08/29/the-cheap-imports-are-a-winwin-for-fun/

[guyhockley]

We all know that asymmetrical piston motion can be achieved by offsetting the crankshaft from the cylinder axis (within reason) and that there are a couple or three linkages which could conceivably be used to this end, - got any idea which ones were tried and rejected?

I haven't worked it out, but I assume this will give asymmetric timing.

[Pursang]

.
329681

First Hiccup.

We want more Power, this is a 'performance' oriented engine.

Say, 9000 rpm. That's 150 cycles per second.

If the exhaust chamber was harmoniously resonating it would be breathing in and out 3 times per cycle.
resonant frequency = 450Hz.

Now some more assumptions::moon:

Header/diffuser pipes:-
mid point diameter? perhaps 35mm?
piston to chamber length? 150mm?

SoS? fair guess.. 550m/s.

Solving Helmholtz @ 450 Hz. (http://www.vk2zay.net/calculators/helmholtz.php)

Volume = 2.5 x 10-4M3
= 250cc (including the volume of the other 2 headers @ about 140cc each)

Conclusion: Just join the 3 pipes together, with a bleed off point. :sherlock:

Seen this before? 329696

Now..just need to find a 1959 Berkeley to put it in:

329694 Perhaps to replace the 3 individual pipes in this one!!

cheers, Daryl

[MENTAL490]

in my 2nd year eng we looked at how tuned pipes work, I knew a little from learning to port and polish as a boy, but it was most interesting, the demo was of a inline 4 cyl car engine, the numbers can be tricky but basically they made each header the same length , the length and size (total volume) was determined by the pressure volume and valocity of the exhaust gasses. After each exhaust there is a point where it goes from positive pressure to a negative (vacuum) for a split second. you want to time it so the vacuum caused by one cly exhausting creates a vacuum in another just before valve close, thus giving you a hand on inlet. Sorry if i confuse anyone im not so good at explaining on paper. ok clear as mud

[Grumph]

Now..just need to find a 1959 Berkeley to put it in:

cheers, Daryl

As I've said before on here in another thread, a mate of mine sidestepped all the calculations and slipped an Ariel square four into his Berkley...

[Pursang]

As I've said before on here in another thread, a mate of mine sidestepped all the calculations and slipped an Ariel square four into his Berkley...

Good choice for the time.

The factory one with the big Enfield twin made the front a bit bulky & ugly

Here's another with a later update - a Honda 4 329697 nice neat fit.

They were a pretty clever idea, front engine & front wheel drive. More potential than a Goggo Dart.

Cheers, Daryl.

[Pursang]

in my 2nd year eng we looked at how tuned pipes work, I knew a little from learning to port and polish as a boy, but it was most interesting, the demo was of a inline 4 cyl car engine, the numbers can be tricky but basically they made each header the same length , the length and size (total volume) was determined by the pressure volume and valocity of the exhaust gasses. After each exhaust there is a point where it goes from positive pressure to a negative (vacuum) for a split second. you want to time it so the vacuum caused by one cly exhausting creates a vacuum in another just before valve close, thus giving you a hand on inlet. Sorry if i confuse anyone im not so good at explaining on paper. ok clear as mud

Here is an inline, 4 cyl, car engine that's been Seriously Tuned. (Ok, it might be half of a v8)

329698

That's a four stroke exhaust working hard and as close to being an expansion chamber as it possibly can.
This one will have a positive return pulse, from the high pressure point at the collector, to shove back some lost charge, before EX valve close.

Cheers, Daryl.

[husaberg]

OW70
I knew the earlier Ow61 was disc induction between the v but not the Ow70 as well
329727
329721
Drawing is OW61
329723329724329725329726

[husaberg]

Someone mentioned BSA somewhere?

Here's a prototype 250cc near horizontal single. Features include 4 radial valves, 2 carbs, 2 exhausts, monoshock rear suspension. 'Management' decided not to put it into production.

It's on display at the National Motorcycle Museum near Birmingham, UK.


Thanks, found it, the suspension was patented by Phil Vincent, and used on his HRD and Vincent bikes.

http://www.voc.uk.com/net/docs/19.16/19-452-49.pdf


There's always a way around a Patent.
329655

This is the legendary 1929 Brough named "Moby Dick".

Cantilevered rear, Under-slung, braced swingarm,
Multiple linkages, giving variable rate,
High and low speed adjustable dampers.

Fastest, privately owned, road legal, motorcycle in the world, in 1931.

Just STUNNING. :not:


Bentley and Draper rear suspension - Irving is rather caustic about the stiffness of that "braced" arm....


The MC1 as told by Hele
329733329728329729329730329731329732

I post post the 1936 New Imperial with its underslung braced and catalever with a link suspension in the next post or maybe in the chassis thread.
It was unit construction as well.

[tjbw]

The MC1 as told by Hele
329733329728329729329730329731329732

I post post the 1936 New Imperial with its underslung braced and catalever with a link suspension in the next post or maybe in the chassis thread.
It was unit construction as well.

Thanks husa, I enjoyed that. I never heard of a connecting rod with integral bolts before! Did anyone else, apart from Lagonda, make those?

Also, I don't know where is the cantilever in the rear suspension.

[husaberg]

Thanks husa, I enjoyed that. I never heard of a connecting rod with integral bolts before! Did anyone else, apart from Lagonda, make those?

Also, I don't know where is the cantilever in the rear suspension.

No idea re the conrod
This might help with the Suspension
one pivot is under the spring the other has a shiny colver cover the bracing is below the pivot just above the exhaust
329749329750329751329753

BUGGER IT GOOGLE
329754
329755
GEAR PRIMARY DRIVE AS WELL AS UNIT CONSTRUCTION
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/new-imperial-1937/images/New-Imperial-1937-engine.jpg
Well worth a look through
http://cybermotorcycle.com/

[WilDun]

I would be very interested to know who made the gearbox - normally it would have been Burman, Albion etc. where the input shaft and the output shaft were concentric (quill shaft - direct drive in top gear therefore in theory more efficient) - not the same layout as the modern boxes, (the little "buzz bombs" of the sixties changed all that), because you couldn't have them in top gear for more than a minute at a time anyway! - I do know, I rode one a lot!
In the case of the layout of common style boxes back in the day however, the gearbox shaft and output sprocket would now rotate "backwards" with the gear primary drive, that's assuming of course that the engine rotated "forwards". - (I'm sure I could have said all that using a lot less words!) :rolleyes:
Did they make their own gears or did some of the gearbox makers do a special one for New Imperial?

That machine is an example of the direction the British Industry should have been taking - just shows that we don't recognize forward thinking when we see it - until it's too late!
We get a picture into our "blinkered" heads of what a motorcycle should look like and anything different is considered "rubbish"!

[Pursang]

.
Here's a pic of the Excelsior Two-stroke triple. fitted in a bike.
329763 One off, Nice Job. Could do with a triangulated swing arm rear end.
Interesting exhaust, it's a chrome plated version of the 'standard' system fitted to the later Berkeleys.

329764 The Berkeley Race Tuning manual recommends many subtle mods to the engine.
Enlarging & matching the transfers at the cases, adding transfer relief at the top of the pistons.
Inlet & exhaust ports cleaned up & polished. Carby mods & jetting settings.

Recommended not changing exhaust port height but definitely fitting the exhaust chamber shown above.
"A number of cars made during 1951 and early 1958 are fitted with exhaust systems not suitable for use
with tuned engines. The type recommended incorporates an expansion chamber extending across the
front of the engine and is prominently marked part No TMB 751 2 cylinder TMB 1115 3 cylinder.
"This type of exhaust system, which embodies adequate silencing with a minimum of backpressure is
designed in such a manner that very little carbon wi1l form inside it".

Of course, general Two-stroke technology still had a lot to learn in the late 50's.

Cheers, Daryl.

[Grumph]

I would be very interested to know who made the gearbox - normally it would have been Burman, Albion etc. where the input shaft and the output shaft were concentric (quill shaft - direct drive in top gear therefore in theory more efficient) - not the same layout as the modern boxes, (the little "buzz bombs" of the sixties changed all that), because you couldn't have them in top gear for more than a minute at a time anyway! - I do know, I rode one a lot!
In the case of the layout of common style boxes back in the day however, the gearbox shaft and output sprocket would now rotate "backwards" with the gear primary drive, that's assuming of course that the engine rotated "forwards". - (I'm sure I could have said all that using a lot less words!) :rolleyes:
Did they make their own gears or did some of the gearbox makers do a special one for New Imperial?

Pretty sure it's Burman internals - and the motor rotates backwards too.

Haven't seen very many crossover sleeve gear (direct top) boxes. Aermacchi and Laverda are the only ones that come to mind.

[Pursang]

. Two-stroke technology still had a lot to learn in the late 50's.
I still do, in mine.

So back to the original point, put up by Frits.

Is it possible to use the energy of one exhaust, to boost the power of another cylinder?

Carefully timed waves from a std expansion chamber system? A third of the length of a regular one, maybe?
Losses of energy where it needs to divide into 3, and one cylinder is trying to exhaust when another one needs the timed return pressure pulse.
Might work, if the pressures added at the junction, but will they then go back down the pipe to repeat the process???

Helmholtz wasn't a lot of help either.

Can we just build enough pressure in a simple chamber, and hold it long enough to push the over-scavenged mixture back into the cylinder?
Don't want so much, that it interferes with the scavenge flow from the exhausting cylinder either.

So are we looking for Pressure, or Energy density or Mass flow or What?

Need some data.

Does any-one out there have 'instantaneous' pressure readings, from a chamber of known dimensions?
These need to have been sampled at 100,000 to 500,000Hz.
Samples at lower rates will just give averaged results, which won't really help.

For example, the average pressure in a working two-stroke crankcase is a quite low, positive number.
(Some 'experts' have even claimed that there isn't enough pressure for transfer to occur.) :no:

Pressures in a crankcase range in the order -14 to + 30 psi. but they change quickly.

I want to know what the pressures in an exhaust pipe (not just at the exhaust port) do and exactly when they do it.
BMW had sensors all over those headers in the earlier pic.

[WilDun]

Pretty sure it's Burman internals - and the motor rotates backwards too.

That would all make sense - all the gearboxes that I saw (ie pre - 66, before the secondhand Jap stuff had filtered through to us plebs) were the Burman type -
First new style box I saw was on my 1966 Suzuki T20 six speeder (every gear was needed too, albeit only for a fleeting moment!) That layout was to set the trend right up till the strokers started to disappear (up till today in fact!).
But changing gear a lot was the cool thing to do in those days!

[Michael Moore]

Haven't seen very many crossover sleeve gear (direct top) boxes. Aermacchi and Laverda are the only ones that come to mind.

Guzzi singles too.

[Grumph]

Guzzi singles too.

Should have remembered that one - my brother has an Airone 250.

Can't remember if the Benelli/Motobi singles do too.
Seems to be an Italian thing....

[husaberg]

Should have remembered that one - my brother has an Airone 250.

Can't remember if the Benelli/Motobi singles do too.
Seems to be an Italian thing....

They likely got the idea of some old pasta machine in the bologna museum.
supposedly Ducati use a geartooth pattern all of their own.

[husaberg]

I would be very interested to know who made the gearbox - normally it would have been Burman, Albion etc. where the input shaft and the output shaft were concentric (quill shaft - direct drive in top gear therefore in theory more efficient) - not the same layout as the modern boxes, (the little "buzz bombs" of the sixties changed all that), because you couldn't have them in top gear for more than a minute at a time anyway! - I do know, I rode one a lot!
In the case of the layout of common style boxes back in the day however, the gearbox shaft and output sprocket would now rotate "backwards" with the gear primary drive, that's assuming of course that the engine rotated "forwards". - (I'm sure I could have said all that using a lot less words!) :rolleyes:
Did they make their own gears or did some of the gearbox makers do a special one for New Imperial?

That machine is an example of the direction the British Industry should have been taking - just shows that we don't recognize forward thinking when we see it - until it's too late!
We get a picture into our "blinkered" heads of what a motorcycle should look like and anything different is considered "rubbish"!

If you are meaning the New IMP gearbox it appears to have been made by them, or at least for them.
I note the oil for the engine was also contained in the engine, actuallyin its own sump. seperate from the gearbox oil much like an Royal Enfeild bullet or a CRF450 honda.
As i mentioned it also has a gear primary drive as well.

If you are meaning the MC1 that has a Burman designed to take the 5 speed but only fitted with a 4 speed for inital testing
I guess the Burman likely was the only 5 speed freely available at the time becuase Norton used it also on their works 500 and 350's in preference to their own gearbox.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc?p=1130374991#post1130374991

As far as i know All the villiers gearboxs up to the starmaker were based on Albions or made by them
The starmaker was a new design full needle roller set up.
As far as i am aware in the 3 and 4 speed villiers gearboxs any set of gears made or any gear can be used for any gear you want. thus you can use a second gear to make a very high first gear etc if that makes sense.
the Enfeild albions and the early 8E 4 speed gearboxs have a kickstart on the inside (or was it outside) of the gearchange shaft.
They also had a gear indicator so you could see what gear you were in. (Not that that was a problem)
From memory some albions also had a seperate netural lever on the gearbox.
On the villiers engines we had gearing changes were normally made on the Engine sprocket because the gearbox sprocket was buried behind the clutch.
Racing royal endfields were the same, both had the primary case held on by only one bolt so it was a doddle to do.

[ken seeber]

Harley (ie Hog) gearboxes are still old school, non crossover. Must be a piss off changing the chain or belt.

[WilDun]

If you are meaning the New IMP gearbox it appears to have been made by them, or at least for them.
I note the oil for the engine was also contained in the engine, actuallyin its own sump. seperate from the gearbox oil much like an Royal Enfeild bullet or a CRF450 honda.
As i mentioned it also has a gear primary drive as well.

Yes, I was meaning the new Imperial - wonder who the designer was - forward thinking!


Harley (ie Hog) gearboxes are still old school, non crossover. Must be a piss off changing the chain or belt.

How the hell did HD manage to keep going for so many years without actually thinking ahead? Mind you, those gearboxes still make some sense when you can actually keep them in top gear almost forever!

Maybe a lot of companies tried too hard to change everything, when it perhaps didn't need changing! look at those fantastic racing machines of the sixties, I (and a lot of others) loved to watch and listen to them but they were totally useless for your average rider to enjoy having a replica to take on the road!
We were all pissed off when the 125's were restricted to 6 speed and 1 cylinder but maybe they (the rulemakers) did us a favour and made us find other ways to wring out more torque and higher power as well! - bucket racing is still keeping a lot of people happy trying to do just that!
Maybe the environmentalist are doing the same, eventually forcing us to clean up our act and making some innovative discoveries on the way! - look at how quiet but still powerful bikes are now compared to 25 years ago (except HD of course, but I heard they eventually had to go and have a quiet word with Porsche!).

Now if we had a big efficient V2 two stroke with fuel injection, no smoke and no huge exhausts and able to pass all the emission tests........ no?.......maybe not! Has the two stroke gone forever or is there still a niche for it? - we'll just have to rely on Flettner and one or two others to get around that one!

[Frits Overmars]

How the hell did HD manage to keep going for so many years without actually thinking ahead?...
Maybe a lot of companies tried too hard to change everything, when it perhaps didn't need changing!Now that is one thing you cannot accuse Harley of!
As I keep saying (because Europe's largest Harley-Davidson museum is just down the street from where I live), HD is the best motorcycle in the whole USA
(until someone there starts producing a second brand).
329773

[tjbw]

Now that is one thing you cannot accuse Harley of!
As I keep saying (because Europe's largest Harley-Davidson museum is just down the street from where I live), HD is the best motorcycle in the whole USA
(until someone there starts producing a second brand).
329773

Haha, love that speed limit image, wd Frits.

[WilDun]

Haha, love that speed limit image, wd Frits.

They are entitled to say what they like about HD in America, I did once hear a guy in USA (who didn't actually ride bikes) confidently pronounce that the Harley was "the fastest motorcycle in the world"! ........ But we do need to acknowledge that despite their low tech, their low power, their low ground clearance, their low everything in fact (except maybe noise and price) they did actually survive all through the world! - that's against all odds, quite impressive really.

Much as it is distasteful to some of us, we have to ask the question - why did they survive? and why didn't the two stroke (in motorcycles) :confused:

[Grumph]

Yes, I was meaning the new Imperial - wonder who the designer was - forward thinking!

How the hell did HD manage to keep going for so many years without actually thinking ahead? Mind you, those gearboxes still make some sense when you can actually keep them in top gear almost forever!

Don't know who the New Imp designer was - but it wasn't forward thinking at the time. It was lateral thinking solving a problem that didn't exist at the time.
At that point in time - early 30's - OHC was the way forward. More HP !! Frames were developing, brakes were getting better but the separate transmission was still quite adequate for the job. It was also well suited to being made on relatively simple machinery by small companies who sold the same product to many end users.
The race version of the unit construction New Imp was the last pushrod engine to win a "pure classic" TT - 1936 Lightweight. I understand that the race version cost a fortune because to get it as light or lighter than their already successful non unit 250, they had to cast most of the engine in magnesium...

HD simply had a big enough domestic market for whom their products were adequate for use. If you can sell everything you make domestically, there's no real incentive to produce anything better. Exemplified by the period of AMF ownership where they frankly stagnated.
I'm sure there are Eastern Bloc examples of the same design stagnation due to the domestic demand.

[tjbw]

No idea re the conrod
This might help with the Suspension
one pivot is under the spring the other has a shiny colver cover the bracing is below the pivot just above the exhaust
329749329750329751329753

BUGGER IT GOOGLE
329754
329755
GEAR PRIMARY DRIVE AS WELL AS UNIT CONSTRUCTION
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/new-imperial-1937/images/New-Imperial-1937-engine.jpg
Well worth a look through
http://cybermotorcycle.com/

Donald Bastow published, in proceedings of Institute of Mechanical Engineers, a detailed account of W. O. Bentley's contribution to the aero and motor industries. It included an image of a Lagonda 2.6L engine featuring conrods with "integral" bolts. In fact it looks like the rod is tapped for standard bolts! The engine was also used in some early Aston Martin cars.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1031.4179&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The suspension images do indeed help, though I still don't see a cantilever in there.

I found some more information on the suspensions in the NZ Bike Rider Magazine:

http://www.brm.co.nz/cantilever-suspension/

They report that NSU were using a single shock in 1909, about same time as Flying Merkel!

BTW Phil Vincent must have been preparing his rear suspension patent application when he was about 18 years old!

[Michael Moore]

Since I just sold off all of mine I should have remembered the Motobi has that gearbox design and so does the H-D Sportster.

[Flettner]

You have to wonder, don't you, how HD with the thinnest engine in the world (fork and blade rod set) managed to squander this attribute and now produce the fattest and lowest bikes know to man. I guess good for the US interstate only! Back roads of NZ, I don't think so.

[Ocean1]

You have to wonder, don't you, how HD with the thinnest engine in the world (fork and blade rod set) managed to squander this attribute and now produce the fattest and lowest bikes know to man. I guess good for the US interstate only! Back roads of NZ, I don't think so.

You'd think. But...

329781

[WilDun]

You'd think. But...

Don't forget the wheelbase and compressed suspension scenario!

Anyway they are definitely survivors, however they've done it, but I'm not sure if it's because the riders are actually interested in bikes, or it's just "the thing to be" (ie a dedicated follower of fashion who loves bells and whistles.... oh, and frills).


You have to wonder, don't you, how HD with the thinnest engine in the world (fork and blade rod set) managed to squander this attribute and now produce the fattest and lowest bikes know to man.

I think that forked conrod arrangement was also used with great success in the Daimler Benz inverted V12 engine in the Messerschmitt 109 as well.

[Ocean1]

Don't forget the wheelbase and compressed suspension scenario!


Aye, but there's enough clearance at that angle, (which is simply Mr Michelin's recommended max) to allow for suspension compression.

When I took that pic I was horrified, I figured I'd never go anywhere near that. A couple of weeks later I broke the hero knob off the LH peg.

[Frits Overmars]

Aye, but there's enough clearance at that angle... When I took that pic I was horrified, I figured I'd never go anywhere near that.
A couple of weeks later I broke the hero knob off the LH peg.You mean while riding? Or with a wrench? :devil2:
Which reminds me of the bloke who took an angle grinder to the sides of his boots in order to give them a more respectable appearance.
One small error: he ground the insides... :whistle:

[Ocean1]

You mean while riding? Or with a wrench? :devil2:
Which reminds me of the bloke who took an angle grinder to the sides of his boots in order to give them a more respectable appearance.
One small error: he ground the insides... :whistle:

No, riding, although there was a small rock involved so it would have been less than the angle in the pic.

I always wondered about how useful those knobs were, I mean by the time you touch you're already fully aware that you're pushing your luck, the last thing you need is some very noisy and extremely tactile confirmation to distract you from the business of surviving the corner.

There's little wear on my boots, and being well pigeon toed it's closer to the toes than might be quite normal.

[WilDun]

Aye, but there's enough clearance at that angle, (which is simply Mr Michelin's recommended max) to allow for suspension compression.

When I took that pic I was horrified, I figured I'd never go anywhere near that. A couple of weeks later I broke the hero knob off the LH peg.

Yes and I can see by the tyres that you are telling the truth!
Perhaps it's just a myth that the Harley can't corner - almost as big as the myth of the Harley itself! - I'm afraid I'll never find out as I'm so stuffed now and I daren't even think about throwing a leg over!:no: - do you wear frills? - that's probably the one thing that I don't understand.

[husaberg]

Yes, I was meaning the new Imperial - wonder who the designer was - forward thinking!



How the hell did HD manage to keep going for so many years without actually thinking ahead? Mind you, those gearboxes still make some sense when you can actually keep them in top gear almost forever!

Maybe a lot of companies tried too hard to change everything, when it perhaps didn't need changing! look at those fantastic racing machines of the sixties, I (and a lot of others) loved to watch and listen to them but they were totally useless for your average rider to enjoy having a replica to take on the road!
We were all pissed off when the 125's were restricted to 6 speed and 1 cylinder but maybe they (the rulemakers) did us a favour and made us find other ways to wring out more torque and higher power as well! - bucket racing is still keeping a lot of people happy trying to do just that!
Maybe the environmentalist are doing the same, eventually forcing us to clean up our act and making some innovative discoveries on the way! - look at how quiet but still powerful bikes are now compared to 25 years ago (except HD of course, but I heard they eventually had to go and have a quiet word with Porsche!).

Now if we had a big efficient V2 two stroke with fuel injection, no smoke and no huge exhausts and able to pass all the emission tests........ no?.......maybe not! Has the two stroke gone forever or is there still a niche for it? - we'll just have to rely on Flettner and one or two others to get around that one!

http://www.newimperial.co.uk/history.html

As for the harleys they are for nostalgia lovers Of the 1950's.
With clever marketing they actually created a cult.
On the evo engines they actually modified the die castings to look like rough sand cast finish.
They also were one of the last engines i have heard of that were actually selective fit with the gears etc.

[ken seeber]

One small error: he ground the insides... :whistle:

If that happened in Oz, old mate would just swap the boots over to the opposite foot. :clap:

As to con rods with the bolts integral with the rod, I'm aghast. The cost to mfg plus the fact that the strength of the "bolt" would be far less that any big end bolt made from a forging. Unless there was some other reason, which would have to be good.

I do remember an article in Cycle World, where I think Gordon Jennings once rode some fast Harley. He commented that someone wrongly said they flexed a lot, because he said it didn't flex at all due to the fact that it had a hinge in the middle.

[husaberg]

If that happened in Oz, old mate would just swap the boots over to the opposite foot. :clap:

As to con rods with the bolts integral with the rod, I'm aghast. The cost to mfg plus the fact that the strength of the "bolt" would be far less that any big end bolt made from a forging. Unless there was some other reason, which would have to be good.

I do remember an article in Cycle World, where I think Gordon Jennings once rode some fast Harley. He commented that someone wrongly said they flexed a lot, because he said it didn't flex at all due to the fact that it had a hinge in the middle.

The believe best modern cost effective conrods are made with special bolts normally apr and dowels to locate the caps instead of the bolts and made one piece then sheared with a serated line.
I have no idea how they do the serated line.
329798

[Grumph]

The believe best modern cost effective conrods are made with special bolts normally apr and dowels to locate the caps instead of the bolts and made one piece then sheared with a serated line.
I have no idea how they do the serated line.

The best way to do it is to grind a narrow vee where you want the part line and simply break it off. The natural serrations of the break are ideal for location.

The only other example of integral rod bolts I can find is the Hercules Engine company who used it on at least some of their products. They were a US industrial engine maker at their peak in the 30's. They seem to have been somewhat oddball too in some of their engines.
While the American SAE standardised rod bolt sizes and proportions around 1930, what was available was by no means up to todays standards.
Forging the bolts integral with the rod at least got you a good quality Silchrome steel, probably better than what was available over the counter at the time.
And, hey. labour was cheap...

[husaberg]

The best way to do it is to grind a narrow vee where you want the part line and simply break it off. The natural serrations of the break are ideal for location.

The only other example of integral rod bolts I can find is the Hercules Engine company who used it on at least some of their products. They were a US industrial engine maker at their peak in the 30's. They seem to have been somewhat oddball too in some of their engines.
While the American SAE standardised rod bolt sizes and proportions around 1930, what was available was by no means up to todays standards.
Forging the bolts integral with the rod at least got you a good quality Silchrome steel, probably better than what was available over the counter at the time.
And, hey. labour was cheap...

Ages ago i posted something about rods... i think it had something about bolts being integral,i will have a look but i have seen something before.

[WilDun]

Ages ago i posted something about rods... i think it had something about bolts being integral,i will have a look but i have seen something before.

This fracture splitting technology isn't new, in fact I think McCulloch may have used it in their chainsaws way back, but not sure on that. Haven't seen integral bolts though.
Here is a link describing the fracturing process well:-
http://www.dieselduck.info/machine/01%20prime%20movers/2005%20Fracture%20Splitting%20conrods.pdf

[tjbw]

This fracture splitting technology isn't new, in fact I think McCulloch may have used it in their chainsaws way back, but not sure on that. Haven't seen integral bolts though.
Here is a link describing the fracturing process well:-
http://www.dieselduck.info/machine/01%20prime%20movers/2005%20Fracture%20Splitting%20conrods.pdf

That's a very good paper Will.

Groove to initiate crack just 0.2mm wide, formed by electro discharge, I think that's what I'd call spark machining.
Thirty percent cost savings achieved, however I'd prefer to spend extra for something that isn't sintered, or doesn't fracture easily.

I'd like to see any problems with carbon fibre rods overcome.

Another thought on the "integral bolts", if any fastener is integral with the rod, wouldn't be a stud, since a bolt has a bead?

[husaberg]

That's a very good paper Will.

Groove to initiate crack just 0.2mm wide, formed by electro discharge, I think that's what I'd call spark machining.
Thirty percent cost savings achieved, however I'd prefer to spend extra for something that isn't sintered, or doesn't fracture easily.

I'd like to see any problems with carbon fibre rods overcome.

Another thought on the "integral bolts", if any fastener is integral with the rod, wouldn't be a stud, since a bolt has a bead?

On the ducati supermono they side stepped all this malarkey by making the rod one peice like a two stroke they then pressed in a 2 piece plan shell bearing.
They would have prefered to use a one piece like a bush but they are not available in the high spec they wanted to use.
I wonder if the could split the rod and then fuse it back together electrically.
Not like this though.
<a href="https://imgflip.com/gif/1mpdza"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/1mpdza.gif" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

[WilDun]

They would have prefered to use a one piece like a bush but they are not available in the high spec they wanted to use.
I wonder if the could split the rod and then fuse it back together electrically.
Not like this though.

I always knew that guy MacGyver was a genius!
Didn't you notice that's exactly what he was doing - I think I must have missed the episode where he split it in the first place! - where'd he go by the way? I bet Harley had him round as a consultant later on - that's probably why they came out of the Doldrums! ;)


That's a very good paper Will.
Another thought on the "integral bolts", if any fastener is integral with the rod, wouldn't be a stud .........

Well just for the purpose of clarity, (and I can never remember the word "integral" anyway) so I'll just call them "built in studs" :msn-wink:

[husaberg]

I always knew that guy MacGyver was a genius!
Didn't you notice that's exactly what he was doing - I think I must have missed the episode where he split it in the first place! - where'd he go by the way? I bet Harley had him round as a consultant later on - that's probably why they came out of the Doldrums! ;)



Well just for the purpose of clarity, (and I can never remember the word "integral" anyway) so I'll just call them "built in studs" :msn-wink:

I think its the episode where he made a microlight out of a concrete mixer, bamboo, some plastic sheeting and duck tape.
As i recall he was welding with a battery and a nickel coin.
EDIT no its a pump in the jungle 2.44
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgkrt2_trumbos-world-p2-3_shortfilms
He looks a little different now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF2soQbiA9M

[Grumph]

I'd like to see any problems with carbon fibre rods overcome.



So would I - but I doubt if it will be in my lifetime. John Britten I believe played with a CF rod - I was told the end result was messy - in every sense.

I've played with CF pushrods - alloy ends bonded in. Worked for a short period, but again, messy end result.

It's not nice stuff to clean out of a motor.

[WilDun]

So would I - but I doubt if it will be in my lifetime. John Britten I believe played with a CF rod - I was told the end result was messy - in every sense.

I've played with CF pushrods - alloy ends bonded in. Worked for a short period, but again, messy end result.

It's not nice stuff to clean out of a motor.

Next thing you know, some clever guy will discover that Cast Iron is good for making cylinders, crankshafts and all sorts of things we never realized.
Power to weight ratio? well, unless you are trying to gain the last tenth of a horsepower to make the thing accelerate better or go faster by 1 kilometer an hour - who cares, a 50cc engine will be as powerful as a 500cc street bike was a few years ago anyway! The power to weight issue could after all be sorted by drinking a few less bottles of piss and by driving on past MacDonalds on the way home from a meeting! :laugh: ( and no I didn't listen to that sort of advice ........ years ago)
Never mind, the triple bypass a few years back fixed that and I'm sure the surgeon found it just as messy as having to clean up the carbon fibre damage in an engine!!
BTW, the anaesthetist who was to be looking after me didn't turn up on the day because he had crashed his Ducati !!! :facepalm:


He looks a little different now.

Good clip (Kiwi one) thanks - I missed that!

[pete376403]

That's a very good paper Will.

Groove to initiate crack just 0.2mm wide, formed by electro discharge, I think that's what I'd call spark machining.
Thirty percent cost savings achieved, however I'd prefer to spend extra for something that isn't sintered, or doesn't fracture easily.
BMW have sintered, fracture split rods in some of their car engines, and are as far as I know are not known for rod breakage.

Good Yamaha article on fracture splitting on this page https://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technical_review/

[tjbw]

BMW have sintered, fracture split rods in some of their car engines, and are as far as I know are not known for rod breakage.

Good Yamaha article on fracture splitting on this page https://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technical_review/

Lots of interesting pdfs on that page, but the fracture split pdf is the same one I was commenting on, Will posted it already.

Good to know that BMW and others are getting good results with their rods, as breakages can be very expensive.

Lamborghini are developing various carbon fiber parts, including conrods:

https://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/10/lamborghini-and-mit-join-forces-to-create-a-sports-car-for-the-21st-century/

[guyhockley]

http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1750750

[WilDun]

Very exciting, very interesting stuff of course but (as I see it,) it would appear that resin is still resin and not good with high temperatures and metal and resin living together being so diametrically opposed (like cats and dogs) will be a disaster which will take huge amounts of cash to get round and maintain...........and being done just to catch and kill some "baddies" - instead of spending that cash on social engineering, understanding people and promoting commonsense to produce more "goodies"! - sorry, there I go digressing again!:facepalm:
Is there a reason why carbon fibre can't be incorporated in a metal casting (eg. carbon fibres in aluminium) and making it possible to have very thin castings? or impregnating the fibres with metal for use in the "forging" process described somewhere in the previous links.

Oh and I see that my spellcheck is telling me that fibre and aluminium are spelt wrong - funny, it didn't tell me that "spelt" is wrong too- have we got a New Zealand spellcheck?:msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

If your spellcheck doesn't like aluminium, throw it out. The spellcheck, I mean.

[WilDun]

If your spellcheck doesn't like aluminium, throw it out. The spellcheck, I mean.

Stuff the spellcheck, they don't know when to shut up (like me) - But ....... Do I detect then that you are thinking aluminium could possibly be an alternative to resin?

[tjbw]

For high temperature CF applications:

http://www.high-temperature-composites.com/high-temperature-composites-and-fire-barriers-pyrosic-pyrokarb.htm

Hope it's cost effective.

Another thoughts for CF conrod:

Use a thermal barrier in the piston crown and/or at gudgeon pin.
Run engine at lower temperature, e.g. with HCCI.

[WilDun]

For high temperature CF applications:

http://www.high-temperature-composites.com/high-temperature-composites-and-fire-barriers-pyrosic-pyrokarb.htm

Hope it's cost effective.

Another thoughts for CF conrod:

Use a thermal barrier in the piston crown and/or at gudgeon pin.
Run engine at lower temperature, e.g. with HCCI.

I seem to remember someone trying Titanium (alloy) for rods, but no doubt at astronomical cost - who was it and what happened to that experiment?
I also remember when the Kiwi boat in the "round the world" boat race tried CF masts, they tended to snap like carrots but probably that has all been cured by now.

[tjbw]

I seem to remember someone trying Titanium (alloy) for rods, but no doubt at astronomical cost - who was it and what happened to that experiment?
I also remember when the Kiwi boat in the "round the world" boat race tried CF masts, they tended to snap like carrots but probably that has all been cured by now.

Titanium is quite popular for conrods. Honda, Yamaha, Renault and others have used them. I'm not sure if any alloying elements help.

I just saw a price of about US $2500 for an aftermarket titanium conrod!

[Frits Overmars]

Stuff the spellcheck, they don't know when to shut up (like me) - But ....... Do I detect then that you are thinking aluminium could possibly be an alternative to resin?I merely wanted to express my preference for aluminium over that aluminum yankee stuff. But come to think of it, fiber reinforced metal matrix composites look promising.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309611362_Carbon_Fiber_Reinforced_Metal_Matrix_Com posites_Fabrication_Processes_and_Properties

[WilDun]

Titanium is quite popular for conrods. Honda, Yamaha, Renault and others have used them. I'm not sure if any alloying elements help.

I just saw a price of about US $2500 for an aftermarket titanium conrod!

Cutting edge technology fortunately is not necessary in everyday life and the most expensive stuff is only used for competition, where it is severely tested to the limit - (sometimes past the limit) it also enables the rich and famous to say "look at me, I'm rich". -
By the time it's filtered down to us 'street plebs' everything has moved on, out of our grasp - the bucketeers however plod on, are grateful for everything that has been handed down to them and try to improve it - imitating the "Gods" of the past! :not: (and enjoying it).
Then maybe I'm wrong!

[WilDun]

Frits,
I was thinking I had gone a step too far with my thoughts - maybe I'm not dumb after all! Just glanced through that one, will read it properly tonight. It all seems much more sensible to me than resin (how about sintered iron or aluminium powder and CF ?) - just another dumb thought. Then again we might have to be careful with our choice of powders, to prevent a thermite reaction taking place!!
Hope that thought isn't dashed by finding someone else got in first! - but knowing my luck ..... :rolleyes:


I merely wanted to express my preference for aluminium over that aluminum yankee stuff.
I heard a retort by an English guy (who had just been admonished by an American guy for calling it aluminium) saying that something over 80% of the people in the world called it "Aluminium" but, to be fair he could see why a big dumb country boy with a mouth full of "baccy" would find it easier to say "Aluminum".

I did apologise to our US guys earlier, but it didn't come up for some reason - so please forgive me and don't take me too seriously! - As I said before too, my grandfather on my mother's side was a US citizen.

[husaberg]

I merely wanted to express my preference for aluminium over that aluminum yankee stuff. But come to think of it, fiber reinforced metal matrix composites look promising.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309611362_Carbon_Fiber_Reinforced_Metal_Matrix_Com posites_Fabrication_Processes_and_Properties

They were available and were used they even deleted the big end bearing and ran it as a plain big end
The link to the seller is dead now i will try the way back when machine.
329843
From the wayback when machine screenshots.

[WilDun]

They were available and were used they even deleted the big end bearing and ran it as a plain big end
The link to the seller is dead now i will try the way back when machine.

I had never heard of this till now and I reckon it makes total sense, why are they still fiddling around with with resin?

[husaberg]

I had never heard of this till now and I reckon it makes total sense, why are they still fiddling around with with resin?

MMC has been used since the mid 90's at least, for brake calipers anyway, AP were the first as far as i know, they could be made far stiffer for the same weight.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/145224-Race-chassis?p=1130374962#post1130374962
329844329845329846329847

[tjbw]

They were available and were used they even deleted the big end bearing and ran it as a plain big end
The link to the seller is dead now i will try the way back when machine.
329843
From the wayback when machine screenshots.

They were used by Husaberg, must be very good ;)

Also needed good clean oil supply, tight cold clearance.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/11475896/instructions-for-using-mx-composites-connecting-rods

[WilDun]

I kept away from bikes between 1990 and 2010 so there's a gap in my motorcycle experiences and I see that I've completely missed a lot of these new developments - feels weird!

[OopsClunkThud]

On some MMX, the fibers form in place by precipitating out of the alloy as the casting cools. At university (20+ years ago) there was a group working on this strategy with (I think) boron fibers in a titanium matrix. In many ways metals should be the ideal matrix for composites, as the goal is to be ductile and transfer the loads between the fibers.

[WilDun]

On some MMX, the fibers form in place by precipitating out of the alloy as the casting cools. At university (20+ years ago) there was a group working on this strategy with (I think) boron fibers in a titanium matrix. In many ways metals should be the ideal matrix for composites, as the goal is to be ductile and transfer the loads between the fibers.

I'm surorised that there doesn't seem to be much progress in this area despite all the research - got to be a reason for that - cost of production? - probably not really needed for the moment. Bet if there was a war on, it would be sorted straight away!

[husaberg]

I'm surorised that there doesn't seem to be much progress in this area despite all the research - got to be a reason for that - cost of production? - probably not really needed for the moment. Bet if there was a war on, it would be sorted straight away!

I would say F1 "cost saving" rules happered development a bit as well as safety concerns with Beryllium alloys.

There was a lot of research being done with "bubble metals" which added air into the structure of the material giving it a cross section not that different to the bone structure on a birds wing.
Nature is clever like that.
329862
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0012/Banhart-0012.html
Ford was racing plastic compost engines in the late 60s or early 70s an american company still markets the bits and pieces i have posted about them before.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/is-this-the-engine-of-the-future-in-depth-with-matti-holtzberg-and-his-composite-engine-block/
Polimotor
329861
http://www.carstuffshow.com/blogs/a-plastic-car-engine-you-cant-do-that-right.htm
http://www.solvay.com/en/markets-and-products/chemical-categories/specialty-polymers/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_automotive_engine#Version_One
http://www.materialsforengineering.co.uk/engineering-materials-features/resurrecting-the-plastic-engine/89448/

[WilDun]

:laugh:

Ford was racing plastic compost engines in the late 60s or early 70s an american company still markets the bits and pieces i have posted about them before.

Some interesting stuff there I must say!

But I was most interested in the fact that Ford did their bit for the planet by making "compost" engines! :msn-wink: :laugh:

[Grumph]

:laugh:

Some interesting stuff there I must say!

But I was most interested in the fact that Ford did their bit for the planet by making "compost" engines! :msn-wink: :laugh:

The German regs on the proportion of recyclable materials in motor vehicles almost makes new Mercs and BMW's compostable....

[WilDun]

The German regs on the proportion of recyclable materials in motor vehicles almost makes new Mercs and BMW's compostable....

I have watched kids bikes (mostly made of steel tube nowadays) and other machines, being made over the years out of more and more plastic and the more plastic they used, the more useless the machine became! that is of course those being made from the types of plastic we are used to.

I had an engraving machine and it was so useless and badly designed that I rebuilt it replacing all the plastic crap with aluminium and steel, doing away with all the overhung spindles etc. (I hate cantilevers) and made them supported at both ends - it now works a treat!
I also saw a successful little engraving machine being marketed a few years back manufactured for schools. Then someone (smartass) in the company decided it should be made completely of plastic - that was in production for only a few months and they have now gone back to the old successful tubular steel one!
Also I see that Hobbyking have replaced the plastic mini 3D printer they market with a modified version - it has a more hefty aluminium frame instead (wise move)!

Same problems are probably experienced with plastic engines as well!

Plastic generally has some big problems, one is distortion another is it's inability to stand heat and requires steel inserts for bearings.
We are of course talking about reinforced plastics here - I would be more in favour of having carbon fibre with a metallic matrix - however, it was discussed a few posts back and it would seem that there has not been a helluva lot of success in that area so far! ........ but if successful, could it actually be called a plastic?

And ........... I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

[guyhockley]

One of my neighbours is a forester with his son and they will only use Stihl chainsaws "with the plastic engine". I haven't got a look at one, but a quick google does seem to prove that the crankcases are partly some sort of plastic.

[Grumph]

Will - I read an article somewhere on the new TUV regs in Germany. It's not a plastic as such they're using, I understand it's resin reinforced recycled paper and cardboard being used for most interior surfaces. Including dashboards. Apparently it will decompose naturally if dumped but can be recycled.

[husaberg]

Will - I read an article somewhere on the new TUV regs in Germany. It's not a plastic as such they're using, I understand it's resin reinforced recycled paper and cardboard being used for most interior surfaces. Including dashboards. Apparently it will decompose naturally if dumped but can be recycled.

Sounds like a trabant body.

Duroplast is light and strong. It is made of recycled material, cotton waste and phenol resins.
Similar to fiberglass, Duroplast has limited possibilities for efficient disposal. As discarded Trabants began to fill junkyards, disposing of the bodies inspired creative solutions. One of these was developed by a Berlin biotechnology company, who experimented with a bacterium that would consume the body in 20 days. Urban legends, depicted in the movie Black Cat White Cat and described in a song by the Serbian band Atheist Rap, described recycling Duroplast by feeding the cars to pigs, sheep and other farm animals. In the late 1990s, the same Zwickau plant that manufactured the Trabant developed a solution for Duroplast disposal. After removing the glass, engine, and steel frame, the Duroplast shell is shredded and used as an aggregate in cement blocks for pavement construction. This was featured in an episode of the program Scientific American Frontiers on the American PBS TV channel.
Public perception
The use of Duroplast in Trabants and subsequent GDR jokes and mockery in western auto magazines such as Car and driver gave rise to an urban myth that the Trabant is made of corrugated cardboard

[WilDun]

Will - I read an article somewhere on the new TUV regs in Germany. It's not a plastic as such they're using, I understand it's resin reinforced recycled paper and cardboard being used for most interior surfaces. Including dashboards. Apparently it will decompose naturally if dumped but can be recycled.

I'm quite familiar with the Phenolic resin and fabric material used for everything from PC boards to gears (If that's what is being discussed)and have breathed quite a lot of the machining dust) but to be quite honest I don't think it is much benefit as far as keeping the world "green" is concerned!
I think however that the phenol itself makes a good disinfectant - we used to have a product called TCP which smelt a lot like it and which we put on our gravel rash etc. when we fell off our bikes as kids! and I noticed that ants smell like it when squashed! - which maybe explains why they like to live in switches and junction boxes etc. (where they sometimes get frazzled and blow up the electronics).

[husaberg]

Neil Check out the carb valve on the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2PTz-mLoqw
<a href="https://imgflip.com/gif/1n46a5"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/1n46a5.gif" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

[WilDun]

Great sound! but those things cost an arm and a leg! - you could build a complete bucket racer for the price!

If you nose dive one of those things into the ground during a "dumb thumb" moment with your transmitter/joystick,(and I've done that) then you're up for big bikkies - the two I totalled were not quite that expensive of course.

They do sound great though, (even if they are four strokes}.

[guyhockley]

Here's a 3 cylinder radial in a bike.

[husaberg]

I remember asking Frits if he had heard of theis engine on the ESE thread years ago
there was a 4 cylinder 125 version as well I think it was a two stroke Scotch yoke design i beilieve meant to do 16000rpm or higher with a 50HP target
Nothing came of it, one of many English world beaters
This is from Mike Moores Eurospares site.


In the 1960s the English had a series of 'world beater" engines that were proposed for construction. Maj. John Treen had several interesting designs. The one he proposed for financing by a special lottery was a type of modular sleeve-valve two stroke he called the "Excalibur" (as it had an X shape to the engine). Mike Dearman has a picture of the 8 cylinder 250cc Excalibur on his site at

[WilDun]

Here's a 3 cylinder radial in a bike.

That's one I've never seen before, interesting layout!

I remember the Excalibur but have never checked out the engine construction. - I don't think it was seen much after that photo was taken.

[guyhockley]

The picture I posted of the Redrup radial, I took a few years back in Sammy Miller's museum. One of the Treen Excalibur photos on Michael's website was from the same visit.

[guyhockley]

More radial 2 strokes, used to be Konigs:
http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz430.html

http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz570.html

[husaberg]

The picture I posted of the Redrup radial, I took a few years back in Sammy Miller's museum. One of the Treen Excalibur photos on Michael's website was from the same visit.

Small world, i originally asked Frits about after something i read in an article by Brian Woolley that briefly mentioned it. it was either that or a letter to the editor about a brian wooley article he did for classic racer.

[pete376403]

More radial 2 strokes, used to be Konigs:
http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz430.html

http://www.compactradialengines.com/mz570.html

Some nice motors there. Pricey, though.

[guyhockley]

Also from my earlier visit to Sammy Miller's

330104

The crankcase was made up from layers of half inch (I think) ali plate held together with long through studs. When I went back last year the museum had put it in some unrelated, but contemporary, cycle parts to make a period special that never really existed. They did admit to it, though...
So, 4 cylinder 50 Bucket?

[husaberg]

Also from my earlier visit to Sammy Miller's

330104

The crankcase was made up from layers of half inch (I think) ali plate held together with long through studs. When I went back last year the museum had put it in some unrelated, but contemporary, cycle parts to make a period special that never really existed. They did admit to it, though...
So, 4 cylinder 50 Bucket?
http://www.classic50racingclub.co.uk/fitz-ray-4-cyl.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNfTsVXJq8

Nice photo of the wooller in your photo account.330124

[WilDun]

http://www.classic50racingclub.co.uk/fitz-ray-4-cyl.html

Can't believe I missed that one way back - around that time (when 50cc racing started at IOM TT in the early sixties) I was mucking around (trying) to tune 50cc Itoms for racing I was achieving around 65 mph when the first Suzuki 50 racer was probably cracking around 100! - My 125 BSA Bantam was cracking 75 mph! when the 125 Suzukis were probably capable of up around 130 mph - but all good fun.

[guyhockley]

If any of you colonial chappies are ever in southern england, I would say the Sammy Miller museum is well worth a visit as he's got quite a lot of experimental and prototype stuff. On the other hand, we took the grandchildren to the Haynes museum last week and I wouldn't bother going there...
Talking of recommendations, just read the Mike Sinclair book, sent halfway round the world to get here! Thanks, Grumph (Greg?).

[tjbw]

If any of you colonial chappies are ever in southern england, I would say the Sammy Miller museum is well worth a visit as he's got quite a lot of experimental and prototype stuff.

Seconded, I've also posted a few pics which were taken on my visits there.

[husaberg]

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420818/the-two-stroke-engine-reconsidered/
Look familar flet

[ken seeber]

Had a bit of a look at it, but it fires both cylinders simultaneously. So, what about a slight variant:

330233

Upside: Smoother running and a more compact (2 into 1) exhaust.
Downside: Reduced stroke on top pistons (go bigger bore?) & lots of other things I haven't thought about

Have to think a bit more about the kinematics and pivots, but it's an alternative.

[tjbw]

Ken, you could increase throw of outer cranks to balance stroke of pistons?

Also, it looks like the outer links need articulation, and perhaps one outer link and crank could be deleted?

[lohring]

Can I post SAE papers here? I have two on the OPEC engine. One is for a truck engine with the electric turbo and the other is for a 5 KW generator unit that used piston pumps on the outboard cylinders. China was supposed to start producing the engine, but I'm not sure what happened. The company web site is gone.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

I have seen that engine quite a few times being advertised as a "breakthrough!!" - there has been a lot of hype talk about it and how China was poised to turn it into reality, but has it actually become a viable reality as yet?
The shape of the thing is a problem for a start (certainly for private cars and bikes). What has it got going for it that would make people change from the tried and true? - it does have good balance and the benefit of a lot of two stroke research of course (although mainly for competition) but it most probably would still have many of the current two stroke problems to stop it from coming on line! - not least being opposition to the words "two stroke".

First, the awkward layout (shape), two normal conrods and four more massive ones in tension? (ie in a twin cylinder). Poor combustion chamber shape, The two stroke bugbear of petrol and oil mixing and escaping through the exhaust? Large exhaust chambers? and why does it have to be horizontally opposed, when the balance could still be sorted with a common inline cylinder layout?

Then there is the prevailing, unfair opposition to the two stroke nowadays, supposedly because of pollution, which is only the "seen to be" truth, considering China's pollution problems, they also might not be so receptive to it anymore.

Obviously the USA or anyone else in general isn't going to take much interest in it and maybe China is taking note of that!
(ie except Bill Gates ...... then I guess he is America!) - I think it has probably swallowed a lot of Bill's money already!

Anyway we all know Elvis aint dead ........ I do hope the two stroke aint dead either!

Sorry to be a killjoy but we have to face facts - surely?

[Frits Overmars]

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420818/the-two-stroke-engine-reconsidered/
...the awkward layout (shape), two normal conrods and four more massive ones in tension? (ie in a twin cylinder). Poor combustion chamber shape, The two stroke bugbear of petrol and oil mixing and escaping through the exhaust? Large exhaust chambers? and why does it have to be horizontally opposed, when the balance could still be sorted with a common inline cylinder layout?A textbook KISS violation :facepalm:.

[lohring]

I tend to agree. A simpler version is being touted by Achates Engines (http://achatespower.com/). The electric turbo is the breakthrough in my opinion. It's a more efficient and compact compressor than the Roots blowers used in the past. Electronic engine management should also help. However, if battery technology keeps going like it has been, all these points will be moot. If you can seriously consider electric propulsion for aircraft (http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/corporate-social-responsibility/airbus-e-fan-the-future-of-electric-aircraft/e-aircraft-roadmap.html), cars and trucks should be easy.

Lohring Miller

[husaberg]

A textbook KISS violation :facepalm:.

But the devils into details:laugh:
i just looked at the description seen asymmetrical exhaust and inlet and thought uniflow.

i think the answer for the 2t is either stopping the hydrocarbons escaping out of the ports.
At low revs or sending them back in there again after they escape.
A lot of EGR stuff has been done on 4ts for NOX
It seems they use it as an combustion insulator and to prevent detonation.
Of course the presnce of hdrovcarbons in the 2t exhaust might not help.

The actual EGR system is taken into consideration when the engineers design a particular engine. Such modern engines will ping heavily due to excessively high combustion temperatures and pre-detonation. In such cases the exhaust reintroduction not only reduces combustion temperatures but also has the effect of raising the mixture octane to reduce pinging (pre-combustion).
Something as simple as a rehash of the vacumn flapper butterfly valve Yamaha used on the Daytona special with a egr bypass would work.
330255330256

The valves are controlled by engine vacuum and throttle opening. When the carburetor slides are raised less than 3.3mm, a valve located at the carburetor linkage remains closed. With that control valve closed, vacuum from the intake manifolds opens a dashpot located underneath the carburetors, behind the cylinders. That dashpot pulls butterfly valves closed via an adjustable rod linkage which runs underneath and between the cylinders to the exhaust valve assembly.
When the carburetor slides are raised more than 3.3min, the control valve opens a line leading from the airbox, dashpot vacuum drops, and the butterfly valves spring open. The valves are either open (under most conditions) or closed (under deceleration and very small throttle openings) and do not hold at any position m between. When the control valve is open, the line from the airbox constitutes a coitrolled air leak, which is compensated for in carburetor jetting. (A one-way valve in the intake manifold vacuum lines prevents any reversal in the emissions system air flow.)
The valves are effective because a twostroke is less efficient with the throttle closed, especially when decelerating. The rich air/fuel mixture tends to run right through the cylinders and out the exhaust without complete combustion, and the lack of compression braking effect allows a decelerating two-stroke to coast with the throttle shut for relatively long distances. That adds up to lots of emissions during deceleration. The butterfly valves work on a sort of potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe principle - with the exhaust plugged, emissions aren't a problem. In actual fact, it isn't that dramatic. When open, the exhaust manifolds are 1-7/16 in. diameter, for a combined exhaust area of 3.25 sq. in., not counting the obstruction caused by the open butterfly valves. With the valves closed, exhaust exits through two quarter-inch holes in each valve, for a combined exhaust area of 0.2 sq. in. It isn't a case of total blockage, but it gets the job done.
http://www.oocities.org/motorcity/flats/3877/CWArticle.html
IF you want something that really fails on KISS
Maybe get rid of the crankcase pumping and use something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPuYF0eNK6M

[WilDun]

I tend to agree. The electric turbo is the breakthrough in my opinion. ......... However, if battery technology keeps going like it has been, all these points will be moot. Lohring Miller

Yes Lohring I tend to agree (in fact fully agree) that gas turbine powered generators and electric motors are in the near future. Having said that, the good old two stroke piston engine also has a niche with it's convenience, good power to weight ratio and above all, it's instant power without the help of heavy batteries etc,
Until the battery weight issue is sorted, the two stroke still stands a chance and until the efficiency issues with the smaller turbines is sorted, the two stroke could be able to fill this role as a viable powerplant also. (ie if it can demonstrate some good manners in the preservation of the environment!).
I thought the smokiness (or performance) of the Suter at the TT did not help the image of the two stroke at all! - but a very brave effort nevertheless!

[lohring]

I hate to be an electric power advocate in an IC forum. I've loved two strokes since I built a 10 cc model airplane engine in high school shop. However, I have a little experience with electric power. In 2008 we went 98+ mph two way average to set the world electric powered boat speed record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yNu2_LlO9s) that still stands. Lithium polymer batteries were the secret even though we ran a brushed motor and relatively inefficient speed control. The batteries cost $14,000 wholesale direct from Enerland for 42 6 cell packs. Today much better lithium polymer batteries would cost $6,000 retail. The boat's range was several kilometers at top speed. Today you could drive a bigger hydro to an over 150 mph record with a used Tesla, or similar, power plant. At moderate speeds the range should be a lot greater.

My Subaru BRZ has around a 300 mile range on mostly highway driving with great handling and reasonable acceleration. The Tesla Model S, according to my friends who own one, has around a 300 mile range with great handling and unbelievable acceleration. It costs at least 3 times as much. We will see how the upcoming moderate priced electric models from many manufacturers do.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

I hate to be an electric power advocate in an IC forum. I've loved two strokes since I built a 10 cc model airplane engine in high school shop. .......... However, I have a little experience with electric power. ......... Today much better lithium polymer batteries would cost $6,000 retail ......... The Tesla Model S, according to my friends who own one, has around a 300 mile range with great handling and unbelievable acceleration. It costs at least 3 times as much. ......... Lohring Miller

So are you only interested in straight electric power as opposed to hybrid? I was just thinking of getting past the heavy and expensive battery situation by also utilizing lightweight IC engines and using less battery, ie using batteries only as a "buffer" in the transmission in preference to the expensive gearing involved in differentials and auto transmissions of the road vehicles today. I don't think the generators and motors themselves are horrendously expensive to produce - ( controls probably quite complex though - I imagine).. If the two stroke can clean up it's act then it must be a serious contender for this position at least in the near future!.

Airbus (I think it was Airbus) it seems are now experimenting with hybrid power instead of using pure electrically powered aircraft (which they originally started off with).

[tjbw]

Here's a 3 cylinder radial in a bike.

I hadn't heard of Charles Redrup before seeing his 3 cylinder radial, at Sammy Miller Museum a few years ago.

I now appreciate that he had quite a remarkable career, designing an engine almost every year between 1896, when he was 18, and 1953. The designs included:
a steam engine
rotary supercharged two cylinder four stroke motorcycle engine
three cylinder aero engine with contra rotating propellers
four cylinder sleeve valve car engine
six cylinder radial motorcycle engine
six cylinder double-ended two stroke axial marine engine
five cylinder axial water cooled car engine
seven cylinder axial engine
nine cylinder poppet valve axial bus engine
nine cylinder rotary valve axial bus engine
eight cylinder opposed piston axial engine
three cylinder axial wobble plate motor cycle engine
three cylinder OHV radial motor cycle engine (as posted above by guyhockley)
eight cylinder opposed piston axial cam aero engine

His patents included a single sleeve valve engine, and a double ended wobble plate axial engine.

He was known as "the knife and fork man", which was something to do with him doing development work in his "simple" home workshop.

Some more info and images here:
http://www.fairdiesel.co.uk/Redrup.html

The first photo below is the "Barry" engine c1903. It's a supercharged rotary two cylinder four stroke side-valve engine.

It has crankcase compression! On each piston down stroke the air fuel mixture from under both pistons, is fed via a rotary valve, to one of the inlet side valves. Thus each cylinder receives a double charge.

The cylinders, including transfer pipes and exhausts, rotate around the stationary hollow crankshaft, to which is connected a hose from the carburettor (not shown in photo). The engine is enclosed in a cylindrical perforated canister (also not shown), a lever by the tank has linkage to where the carb hose is attached to the crankshaft, I'm not sure of this is a throttle, or another valve to alter the inlet timing!(also not shown on photo).

The other photo is a drawing c1936. It shows a section on an axial eight cylinder opposed piston engine. This is a supercharged uniflow two stroke, featuring wobble plates.

[WilDun]

From what I can gather, that Bristol Tramways engine was the only successful wobble plate engine ever! - it has intrigued me for a long time!
We have a company called "Duke" here in Auckland who have developed something similar (probably based on the Bristol engine) which it seems is a success also and no doubt, it has been greatly improved by the use of modern metallurgy.
It is said to be a very compact and smooth running engine, but I'm sure it would be hard to persuade any engine company to produce it, or to change from a proven design which is already bringing in good profits.

[Frits Overmars]

He was known as "the knife and fork man", which was something to do with him doing development work in his "simple" home workshop.My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.
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[lohring]

So are you only interested in straight electric power as opposed to hybrid?

Not really. We were interested in setting specific records. The ultimate water speed record also was interesting, but we didn't want to die. For a while we thought about a steam engine record setting boat, but that's a topic for another forum. I think fully electric cars with current battery technology are here, but not at a reasonable cost yet. Maintenance and construction cost will be much simpler with the exception of batteries. That's also been true for a century. (https://electrek.co/2017/04/21/thomas-edisons-charging-station/)

Airplanes and fast boats run at much higher power levels so hybrids make more sense for them so far. Even with over a century of development the automotive IC engine is a complicated beast. That history, and the sophistication of the seemingly simple two stroke are what makes all this fun.

Lohring Miller

[husaberg]

My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.
330291
Indian were knife and fork as well
Here is one Berty built in a shed earlier with a few broken files and a borrowed mill made out of a ford Truck axel later ones were caterpillar grader axles squashed flat with a forge and a power hammer
They lasted 20 years they were replaced when then the engine was converted to positive oil supply.
Pretty sure Grumph was saying this trophy has disappeared now.
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[tjbw]

My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.
330291

Yes, I think it would be more meaningful to call him the knife and fork man for that reason. Perhaps you should edit his page on Wikipedia ;)

Now, if he was the knife and fork man in 1920s, by the mid 1930s he should have been known as spiderman, on account of his radial engine conrod spider. Don't anyone dare suggest he should be known as wobbly ;)

The drawing of his Barry engine shows levers on either side of petrol tank, one links to the carb, the other links to inlet port on hollow crankshaft, and could provide control over inlet port timing?

I'm puzzled by the small hose from carb to hollow crankshaft, the diameter looks too small, and it's long. How can the engine breath through that? Why not connect carb direct to the crankshaft?

[WilDun]

I haven't as yet been able to fathom out what you have mentioned about the Barry Engine, but neither have I figured out the significance of the parallel conrod concept in the 9 cylinder radial but the fact that unlike nearly all radials there is no "master" conrod might be a clue! Guess it must have worked anyway because that guy was no fool (but a little unconventional!) - whether those unconventional conrods and unconventional pistons would have added much to manufacturing cost I don't know, I suspect that they might - but good lateral thinking anyway - I'll have to read more!

BTW the Daimler Benz V12 in the ME 109 also had "knife and fork" rods and I'm not sure about the RR Merlin.

Think "Wobbly" may have got his name for some reason other than for being a fan of the wobble plate engine!

Husa, guess you are referring to Bert Munro - that guy was unstoppable and always different! and of course he must have derived a lot of pleasure from doing things his way ..... and always on a shoestring! I had the pleasure of having a lengthy (well a few minutes) discussion with him on the starting line at Pukekohe not long after his success at Daytona, he was in no hurry to get back into the stand before the start (much to the displeasure of the officials who wanted to get the race underway!) - lots of eyes raised skywards! :rolleyes:

[Grumph]

The Burt trophy illustrated is I think still given at The Burt Munro Challenge. The one missing is a severely bent and twisted Goldie rod...

I'd pick that the Barry engine was drawn by the typical technical illustrator of the period - who knew nothing. If it ever ran in that form I'd be surprised.

[Grumph]

A lot of the aero engines of the pre war period - and afterward - used "master and slave" rods. Both in radials and inline V engines. Nothing wrong wiith them either in something that never goes above 3000 rpm.
I was amused to see that the guy who cuts up kawasakis and makes them into unusual multis - Alan Milyard - has used master and slave rods in his V12 engine. This is basically two Z1300 sixes mitered together. Seems to work well too. Saved a lot of crank length...

[husaberg]

The Burt trophy illustrated is I think still given at The Burt Munro Challenge. The one missing is a severely bent and twisted Goldie rod...

I'd pick that the Barry engine was drawn by the typical technical illustrator of the period - who knew nothing. If it ever ran in that form I'd be surprised.

Shit so two Bert trophies are in existence made with conrods?
In the other two pics are conrods he made out of some very low spec aluminium alloy he got from George Begg they lasted a few minutes each in the Velo.

[WilDun]

The RR Merlin rod layout:- which came first? the Harley or the Rolls?

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[Grumph]

The RR Merlin rod layout:- which came first? the Harley or the Rolls?

Specifically, of those two, the Harley. But knife and fork rods were almost certainly used much earlier in V twin steam engines.
It's an attrractive layout if you want to put cylinders on the same centerline.

[Frits Overmars]

Specifically, of those two, the Harley. But knife and fork rods were almost certainly used much earlier in V twin steam engines. It's an attrractive layout if you want to put cylinders on the same centerline.O yes, it's a wonderful layout if you want to put one cylinder of an air-cooled V-twin right behind the other :facepalm:.

[Grumph]

O yes, it's a wonderful layout if you want to put one cylinder of an air-cooled V-twin right behind the other :facepalm:.

Oh, agreed - and remember it was highly popular for those marvels of cooling, the side valve V twin.....

[ken seeber]

Oh, agreed - and remember it was highly popular for those marvels of cooling, the side valve V twin.....

Oh agreed, and also as good as the sound of a HD, gasping for breath on every stroke when it’s trying to idle at its 223 rpm with the carburettor randomly making its mind up as to go either too rich or too lean on every random stroke.

[Grumph]

Oh agreed, and also as good as the sound of a HD, gasping for breath on every stroke when it’s trying to idle at its 223 rpm with the carburettor randomly making its mind up as to go either too rich or too lean on every random stroke.

You forgot the trademarked "potato - potato' exhaust note, Ken - but I like your way with words....

[WilDun]

You forgot the trademarked "potato - potato' exhaust note, Ken - but I like your way with words....

Yes, ...... and all these things together impress a lot of the population who never actually think very deeply about anything except spectacular sights and sounds which make them look and feel like "mean guys".
Admittedly it does hook some thinkers as well, (ie those who have slightly skewed view of the motorcycle world). - I do however refuse to discuss two stroke fans (like myself) because we are squeaky clean in all areas! :msn-wink:
I'd say, whatever turns you on, just don't expect everyone's approval! (but I'm sure that what you are actually looking for is disapproval). and .... so long as you don't expect to be able to flout the law regarding noise etc. when all the others have to comply! and that does happen ..... but how does it happen?. :confused:

[WilDun]

O yes, it's a wonderful layout if you want to put one cylinder of an air-cooled V-twin right behind the other :facepalm:.

The Ariel Square Four also comes to mind with two air cooled cylinders directly behind! - lots of little eccentricities (spellcheck never said a word!) and exceptions in all sorts of engines.
Someone told me that the in the old VW flat 4, the ignition timing had to be different to the others in one of the rear cylinders.

[husaberg]

The Ariel Square Four also comes to mind with two air cooled cylinders directly behind! - lots of little eccentricities (spellcheck never said a word!) and exceptions in all sorts of engines.
Someone told me that the in the old VW flat 4, the ignition timing had to be different to the others in one of the rear cylinders.

Sharing the exhaust ports on the first two versions ohc and ohv version wasn't a receipe for instant success either
I know a guy who had three MK2 at once. (he likely still has them)
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Less well know was the 18 Degree OHC V4 matchless the Silver Hawk.
Matchless Silver Hawk
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matchless_Silver_Hawk
Check out the rear suspension 1930.

[Grumph]

I remember an article in an Aussie magazine written by a guy restoring a Silver Hawk.
The cylinder block is one piece and weighs, well, a lot apparently - cast iron of course.
When assembling the pistons into the bores, angled bores remember, he found it pretty well impossible to do.
From memory he finished up laying the engine on it's side, blocking the barrel up to the right height - and getting help....

[guyhockley]

New edition of Classic Racer has an article about a replica of an Alpha 250 twin in a Ducati frame built by the brother of John Kirkby who raced one back in the 60s. Mainly pictures, no real technical information. Pretty bike but no silencers so I guess it's not going near a track. Has a "Mick Hemmings lightweight gearbox", probably would have been Albion or Villiers originally, I would have thought. Single Gardner carb twisted to almost horizontal with the float chamber quite a way behind it, could be a source of fun and joy, I would think...

[WilDun]

...... replica of an Alpha 250 twin in a Ducati frame built by the brother of John Kirkby who raced one back in the 60s. .........Single Gardner carb twisted to almost horizontal with the float chamber quite a way behind it.........

That one (ie with the inboard disc valves fed by one carb ?) came up not so long ago (on the ESE thread?) and I think Husa supplied some pictures (before and after) it was burnt along with a lot of other precious stuff when the premises went up in smoke) so at least it hasn't all been lost by the sound of things!

[guyhockley]

The article says that he was charged £325 in 1968 for the engine (and had to promise to win his first race!). 3 months later, Alpha were taken over by Smiths Industries who cancelled everything to do with racing and ordered all speed and engines to be scrapped. He had to return his engine to Alpha and was paid back £150...
In 1991 he started classic racing on a TD1 and looked around for another Alpha.
"Eventually one was found (the original prototype engine) and purchased.
It had escaped the crusher by being buried under a coal heap..."
That's according to Classic Racer, but:
http://www.villiers.info/Alpha/index.htm

[WilDun]

"Eventually one was found (the original prototype engine) and purchased.
It had escaped the crusher by being buried under a coal heap..."

Very thorough article on the Centuri - basically answers all the questions I would have liked to have had answered 50 odd years ago, that engine was one I would been happy to have seen being successful.
I guess Smith's is the same company which does the Smith's racing Triumphs today and about to produce the racing triple engines for Moto2.
Pity they were unable to make a success of the Alpha, but obviously they must have known what they were doing, being able to stay in business - unlike most of the other British companies, but I'm sure they didn't just concentrate on bikes!

[tjbw]

...

I guess Smith's is the same company which does the Smith's racing Triumphs today and about to produce the racing triple engines for Moto2.

...

I had assumed it was Smiths Industries who bought Alpha. You've probably used their speedometers on your British bikes. They also make instrumentation for cars and aircraft.

However I just checked, and it's a different company:

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/E._and_H._P._Smith

Smiths racing is sponsored by yet another Smith company:

http://www.smiths-gloucester.co.uk

[WilDun]

It becomes a bit hazardous to make assumptions or jump to conclusions with names like Smith, Brown, Jones etc!

[Grumph]

All this talk of Villiers conversions is giving me ideas for an update on my 197 special...

I've even found a period watercooling conversion writeup, done on a 9E. Can hide a lot of mods under a waterjacket.

[husaberg]

All this talk of Villiers conversions is giving me ideas for an update on my 197 special...

I've even found a period watercooling conversion writeup, done on a 9E. Can hide a lot of mods under a waterjacket.

What frame Greg?

[guyhockley]

With that user name it should be a Greeves (that previously had a Triumph engine in it?).
I presume this is known about.

[husaberg]

With that user name it should be a Greeves (that previously had a Triumph engine in it?).
I presume this is known about.

Brian Woolley built a square bore and stroke or maybe oversquare water cooled 250 with Bert Greeves blessing unfortunately the cases and cylinder were porous.
Edit it was a Disc Valve as Well. Last page
By the next year the Yamaha had become that dominant that it was not worth while making new ones.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=251903&d=1322903848
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130207683#post1130207683

[guyhockley]

Rarer than a Ryger?
Definitely oddball. Homologated in the 70s but wonder if anyone actually ran one.

[tjbw]

Rarer than a Ryger?
Definitely oddball. Homologated in the 70s but wonder if anyone actually ran one.

Yes oddball indeed, 4 overhead exhaust valves, reed crankcase inlet. It started life as a McCulloch mac 101 123cc two stroke engine.

http://www.vintagekartscollection.com/index.php/news/79-mc-culloch-miracle

My guess is that it's a uniflow two stroke. In which case the exhaust cams are set so only 2 valves open for each exhaust activity.

Here's a pic that TZ posted on ESE in 2011

[Grumph]

Yes oddball indeed, 4 overhead exhaust valves, reed crankcase inlet. It started life as a McCulloch mac 101 123cc two stroke engine.

Brings back memories - my first tuning success in karts was when a mate asked me to have a go at his mac 101....He was a pretty good pedaller too, which helped a lot.

[WilDun]

Yes oddball indeed, 4 overhead exhaust valves, reed crankcase inlet. It started life as a McCulloch mac 101 123cc two stroke engine.

http://www.vintagekartscollection.com/index.php/news/79-mc-culloch-miracle

My guess is that it's a uniflow two stroke. In which case the exhaust cams are set so only 2 valves open for each exhaust activity.

Here's a pic that TZ posted on ESE in 2011

Yes it was a uniflow two stroke with overhead poppet exhaust valves - obviously it wasn't competitive or we would have been more familiar with it.
I did mention it way back somewhere on this thread, but couldn't find all the info I had on it (in a kart engine book) at the time - I remember seeing drawings of the internals with dimensions, I'll have another try at finding it.

About the same time (early nineteen seventies I guess) when I was interested in this type of engine, I remember a guy having converted a Triumph Speed Twin (or was it a Bonneville) to a uniflow two stroke! - from memory he retained the pushrod operation too along with the half crankshaft speed of the camshaft and alternative opening of the exhaust valves (ie one open valve at the end of each power stroke) but I haven't checked all this, - it obviously would had modified cam shape etc.!
This was also probably the case with the IMI engine, with of course two valves opening (4 valve head) at the end of each power stroke - A camshaft rotating at crankshaft speed is liable to cause some valve bounce problems!

[WilDun]

BTW Grumph I just found some John Clarke pics - thought you might like to see......

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[Grumph]

BTW Grumph I just found some John Clarke pics - thought you might like to see......

thankee Will - that'll edumacate the non Kiwis here.

[WilDun]

thankee Will - that'll edumacate the non Kiwis here.

Well, can't say I'm a Kiwi born and bred, but after 51 years I feel that I belong and they are my people. (They liked bikes too - well, a lot did)
JC had a good grasp of Kiwi culture and taught us all how to laugh at ourselves - (like Billy T and the Topp Twins did.) Then he went on to edumacate the Aussies (where he was equally successful).

[guyhockley]

I thought that was Flettner modelling the latest safety gear.

[WilDun]

I thought that was Flettner modelling the latest safety gear.

Not unlike my foundry safety gear either (except that I wear an old style welding helmet) and I'm saving up for a pair of leather gumboots to replace my rubber ones which can be quite smokey and smelly and have burnt through in places! ..... they all have the benefit of safety features like flying off quickly if you swing or shake your leg vigourously enough - they sometimes fly for bloody miles! :laugh:

[guyhockley]

Yes it was a uniflow two stroke with overhead poppet exhaust valves - obviously it wasn't competitive or we would have been more familiar with it.
I did mention it way back somewhere on this thread, but couldn't find all the info I had on it (in a kart engine book) at the time - I remember seeing drawings of the internals with dimensions, I'll have another try at finding it.

About the same time (early nineteen seventies I guess) when I was interested in this type of engine, I remember a guy having converted a Triumph Speed Twin (or was it a Bonneville) to a uniflow two stroke! - from memory he retained the pushrod operation too along with the half crankshaft speed of the camshaft and alternative opening of the exhaust valves (ie one open valve at the end of each power stroke) but I haven't checked all this, - it obviously would had modified cam shape etc.!
This was also probably the case with the IMI engine, with of course two valves opening (4 valve head) at the end of each power stroke - A camshaft rotating at crankshaft speed is liable to cause some valve bounce problems!
There was this one that was quite well known and I'm sure I saw one done the other way back in the 70s at Blackbushe airfield/dragstrip. Blown through the valves and exhausts cut into the bottom of the cylinders.

[WilDun]

That could have been the one I was thinking of (exhausts up top), except that I'm not so sure that those big valves would have reacted favourably to crankshaft speed operation!

[husaberg]

Yes it was a uniflow two stroke with overhead poppet exhaust valves - obviously it wasn't competitive or we would have been more familiar with it.
I did mention it way back somewhere on this thread, but couldn't find all the info I had on it (in a kart engine book) at the time - I remember seeing drawings of the internals with dimensions, I'll have another try at finding it.

About the same time (early nineteen seventies I guess) when I was interested in this type of engine, I remember a guy having converted a Triumph Speed Twin (or was it a Bonneville) to a uniflow two stroke! - from memory he retained the pushrod operation too along with the half crankshaft speed of the camshaft and alternative opening of the exhaust valves (ie one open valve at the end of each power stroke) but I haven't checked all this, - it obviously would had modified cam shape etc.!
This was also probably the case with the IMI engine, with of course two valves opening (4 valve head) at the end of each power stroke - A camshaft rotating at crankshaft speed is liable to cause some valve bounce problems!



There was this one that was quite well known and I'm sure I saw one done the other way back in the 70s at Blackbushe airfield/dragstrip. Blown through the valves and exhausts cut into the bottom of the cylinders.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1130983660#post1130983660

[tjbw]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes?p=1130983660#post1130983660

Thanks for the link Husa. I heard that Rob Collett also built a sleeve valve two stroke engine, do you have any information about it?

[Grumph]

Thanks for the link Husa. I heard that Rob Collett also built a sleeve valve two stroke engine, do you have any information about it?

I certainly don't - and in the pics of the blown Triumph, he doesn't look a well man.

[husaberg]

Thanks for the link Husa. I heard that Rob Collett also built a sleeve valve two stroke engine, do you have any information about it?


I certainly don't - and in the pics of the blown Triumph, he doesn't look a well man.

That came from you Greg didn't it? that mag and the others are sitting in the drawer under the computer.

[guyhockley]

Presumably the same Rob Collet (good engineer's name!). He did 4 and 2 stroke sleeve valve engines.

[guyhockley]

Brian Woolley article. Think I've actually driven one of the Daimlers he mentions round a mate's field. They had 2, one was supposed to be unique as it was a pick up! Done by the factory for their own use, so the story went. Don't remember anything special about the engines, it was the pre-select gearbox that took most of my attention.

[guyhockley]

All this talk of Villiers conversions is giving me ideas for an update on my 197 special...

I've even found a period watercooling conversion writeup, done on a 9E. Can hide a lot of mods under a waterjacket.

I assume your rules are similar to over here, if you can prove it was done in period then it's valid? This doesn't actually give a year but there are contact details...
http://www.iancramp.co.uk/Design%20&%20Development.html

[guyhockley]

Tony Foales uniflow 2 stroke, there are links to other pictures of the beast.

http://www.tonyfoale.com/gallery/Engines/pages/Rotary_2_jpg.htm

[husaberg]

I assume your rules are similar to over here, if you can prove it was done in period then it's valid? This doesn't actually give a year but there are contact details...
http://www.iancramp.co.uk/Design%20&%20Development.html

Judging by the frame and tank it at least 63
i see he used a decent gearbox.

note the variable length bellmouths Whoops its juct to supprt the injectors and locked in place.
330623
Ian's Dad built a very succesful Arrow/leader in the VMCc pre 58 converted to twin carbs.
i posted it ages ago along with the lionheart build

[Frits Overmars]

Presumably the same Rob Collet (good engineer's name!). He did 4 and 2 stroke sleeve valve engines.It almost escaped my attention, but there's a real novelty here: attaching the carburettor to the coolant stub. And the radiator to the crankcase maybe?
330634

[tjbw]

It almost escaped my attention, but there's a real novelty here: attaching the carburettor to the coolant stub. And the radiator to the crankcase maybe?
330634

Thanks to Guy for posting the interesting Collett and White article.

I can't imagine how someone got all 3 coloured labels out of position, and some text under "how it works" is wrong too!

They may have built a version with inlet direct to the cylinder (not to the cooling circuit), but that would have required a supercharger.

Perhaps some "editor" tried to enhance Mick Duckworth's article.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM7HHB51WX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh2Ym7ehb8k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kxu543VwlA

[ken seeber]

A well-known & proven method of coming to STRIKE Products and expecting a positive outcome is to bring gifts and trinkets. One dude brought around a magazine on unmanned systems:

]330679

This edition had a feature on a drone 2 stroke engine. Will have to post in 2 steps.
I see that some of the pics are upside down (they are correctly orientated in the computer) and not in order. Sorry, but dunno why.
330678330677330675330676

[ken seeber]

Here’s the rest. To me and without any real understanding of its goals and any comparative info on other engines, it seems to be a naïve & expensive way to design & make an engine, but a really good way of getting thru some big $s.

330681330680330682330683

[husaberg]

Vncent made an engine for a UAV target drone Picardor
330684
http://thekneeslider.com/vincent-picador-drone-engine/
Mazda 13B's have also been used, some even converted to single rotors

[guyhockley]

The split/half liner idea is reminiscent of the Landspeed RD400 that was posted in ESE
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130894352#post1130894352
(https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130894352#post1130894352)

[guyhockley]

Christner 2-4 stroke engine:
http://quincylooperracing.us/gpage4.html
"Innovations" and "Qcy v Konig" links are quite interesting, too.

[husaberg]

Christner 2-4 stroke engine:
http://quincylooperracing.us/gpage4.html
"Innovations" and "Qcy v Konig" links are quite interesting, too.
Yes they are

[Flettner]

Gee, that gyro flying look like a lot of fun:laugh:
And it is, but not so close to the ground! It will end in tears.
AND as for the helicopter, forget it! Whats the term? I remember, Certain death!!!

[husaberg]

Gee, that gyro flying look like a lot of fun:laugh:
And it is, but not so close to the ground! It will end in tears.
AND as for the helicopter, forget it! Whats the term? I remember, Certain death!!!

I was watching another one doing jump lift offs how does that work, how do the power the rotary wing up to speed?
does the airflow from the pusher engine initially spin it like a windmill?

I was also watching someone almost stall the wing in very steep climbs how much warning do you get does it judder or just stop being airborn anymore?

For your next project
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--T0oSYGow--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/847637759305731650.gif

Actually i might have figured it out.

https://youtu.be/t6xjCUVuUzg

[guyhockley]

snip
For your next project
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--T0oSYGow--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/847637759305731650.gif

snip
Bet a Kiwi version would be cheaper!
https://www.pal-v.com/en/reserve-your-pal-v

[guyhockley]

Similar, in some ways, to the drone engine, above, this is CNCed with (not very efficient?) shaped inserts for the transfers.
http://www.caldwellracingtechnology.com/

[guyhockley]

Don't think we've had this one... Article is from 2001, not sure how current this link is:
http://www.docscipark.com.au/ee_tech.html

[husaberg]

Don't think we've had this one... Article is from 2001, not sure how current this link is:
http://www.docscipark.com.au/ee_tech.html

My god, Dr Joe was old during the 80's how old was then then?
According to mytholgy he received a MZ gp engine in the 60's

Josef Ehrlich died in September 2003 aged 89

https://web.archive.org/web/20080718163336/http://www.docscipark.com.au/ee_tech.html

Whip one up for us Flet..........

I Should have it done by Wednesday!!!

[WilDun]

Don't think we've had this one...

I was interested in that one when it was unveiled and couldn't find it again (couldn't remember the name!) but here is the link to a good animation which leads to other animations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVlJn3TzNU

[husaberg]

I was interested in that one when it was unveiled and couldn't find it again (couldn't remember the name!) but here is the link to a good animation which leads to other animations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVlJn3TzNU

Your Video, is it only me that thinks it resembles something else more primal?
http://i.imgur.com/2M6IIIA.gif

[Frits Overmars]

More variations on this theme:
331056 331057 331058

[WilDun]

Your Video, is it only me that thinks it resembles something else more primal?
http://i.imgur.com/2M6IIIA.gif

Yes, I'm sure it would only be you - however I did of course notice a certain subtle resemblance to something else, but, (unlike you) I am quite a reserved, shy and discreet sort of person, so I decided not mention it! :laugh:

[Flettner]

I was watching another one doing jump lift offs how does that work, how do the power the rotary wing up to speed?
does the airflow from the pusher engine initially spin it like a windmill?

I was also watching someone almost stall the wing in very steep climbs how much warning do you get does it judder or just stop being airborn anymore?

For your next project
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--T0oSYGow--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/847637759305731650.gif

Actually i might have figured it out.

https://youtu.be/t6xjCUVuUzg


Dick and Carroll stayed at my house when they came out to NZ. Husa, they would have been within a few meters of your house too as they did the Trans Alpine Express, you know the one that goes past your house Glen :laugh:
Dick has some more rotorcraft to his name now, one particularly fast vertical takeoff and lading gyro / helicopter hybrid. Not released to the public yet. Real nice guy.

[husaberg]

Dick and Carroll stayed at my house when they came out to NZ. Husa, they would have been within a few meters of your house too as they did the Trans Alpine Express, you know the one that goes past your house Glen :laugh:
Dick has some more rotorcraft to his name now, one particularly fast vertical takeoff and lading gyro / helicopter hybrid. Not released to the public yet. Real nice guy.

Well they do say that the Trans Alpine has some of the best scenery in the world you know;)

[ken seeber]

Any ideas? Suggest circa 1950. Plunger, girder & 4 stroke.

331118

[husaberg]

Any ideas? Suggest circa 1950. Plunger, girder & 4 stroke.

331118

No idea but that is chic styled, Gallic or latin maybe?

[WilDun]

Ken, ......... https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-vintage-italian-moped-motom-four-stroke-engine-low-fuel-consumption-motorcycle-rally-motosalsicciata-april-voltana-di-image70204831

331121

Hate to think how tight that chain would become if you hit a bump!

[OopsClunkThud]

Any ideas? Suggest circa 1950. Plunger, girder & 4 stroke.

331118

It's a Motom. Italian most likely 48cc. Pressed steel frame, some had peddles as a moped. Lots of configurations on these, most made in the '50s but they did continue into the '60s.

Here's a shot of my 1957 Motom 51

331120

[WilDun]

It's a Motom.
..........most made in the '50s but they did continue into the '60s.
Here's a shot of my 1957 Motom 51

331125331124

Looks like they evolved from a moped to a motorcycle sometime between 1948 and 1957!

[WilDun]

This thread goes to sleep periodically and occasionally it needs a good swift kick up the arse, so to speak in order to "kickstart" it again!
I found this gem (actually through one of the ESE posters and although the subject is HCCI this time, this guy is great value!).
HCCI could still be classed as oddball as it as yet is not used in the present engine scene, (not in the two stroke scene either), but once it has been properly tamed, it could be good.
Is it in time to save the IC engine from extinction (before electric wipes the slate clean?) - who knows!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW-b8ZOXqmY

[husaberg]

This thread goes to sleep periodically and occasionally it needs a good swift kick up the arse, so to speak in order to "kickstart" it again!
]

I was actually musing about a transfer port injection two stroke on the way home tonight, only with lpg insead of petrol/ethanol
much higher pressure so less potential loss out the exhaust.
Neil the green party needs you to try it out..........
nice cool charge, and lower emissions, better octane than petrol as well.

[Frits Overmars]

I was actually musing about a transfer port injection two stroke on the way home tonight, only with lpg insead of petrol/ethanol. much higher pressure so less potential loss out the exhaust. Neil the green party needs you to try it out. nice cool charge, and lower emissions, better octane than petrol as well.Since Neil has both transfer port petrol injection and an Autoflight engine running on LPG at hand, we probably won't have to wait long :D.

[WilDun]

I was actually musing about a transfer port injection two stroke on the way home tonight, only with lpg insead of petrol/ethanol
much higher pressure so less potential loss out the exhaust.
Neil the green party needs you to try it out..........
nice cool charge, and lower emissions, better octane than petrol as well.

I was talking about HCCI although I'm sure that injection will come into it as well. Alcohol fuel whilst it has a lot of benefits (for racing) could have problems in the case of aircraft (shorter range for the same weight of fuel) and with road machinery, especially in cities where (I'm told) that alcohol fumes are detrimental to health (mainly eyes it seems).

No doubt most of you guys have watched and listened to all this guy's videos - he has a pretty good way of delivering his stuff! - The one about the "end of the two stroke" may piss a few of us off, but we have to look at all the angles to make proper a judgement!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFRPxlscY

I have always loved two strokes and hope that something will come up to give them a chance in the market and that includes everything from an entirely new approach to design, to the attitude of the legislators!
When steam engines disappeared after WW2 all the old guys insisted that "It'll be no good if it isn't powered by steam" and often took that attitude to the grave, I hope we don't end up like that! ........ naw of course we won't!

I haven't watched it all yet, so I will have to reserve my judgement till after I see both videos....... but it does sound interesting!

[husaberg]

I was talking about HCCI although I'm sure that injection will come into it as well. Alcohol fuel whilst it has a lot of benefits (for racing) could have problems in the case of aircraft (shorter range for the same weight of fuel) and with road machinery, especially in cities where (I'm told) that alcohol fumes are detrimental to health (mainly eyes it seems).

No doubt most of you guys have watched and listened to all this guy's videos - he has a pretty good way of delivering his stuff! - The one about the "end of the two stroke" may piss a few of us off, but we have to look at all the angles to make proper a judgement!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFRPxlscY

I have always loved two strokes and hope that something will come up to give them a chance in the market and that includes everything from an entirely new approach to design, to the attitude of the legislators!
When steam engines disappeared after WW2 all the old guys insisted that "It'll be no good if it isn't powered by steam" and often took that attitude to the grave, I hope we don't end up like that! ........ naw of course we won't!

I haven't watched it all yet, so I will have to reserve my judgement till after I see both videos....... but it does sound interesting!

i have posted a lot of stuff about Hondas version of HCCI
The EXP2 they controled it with the power valve position
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130353595#post1130353595
it looked very promising they even did a road legal production version for sale .
the CRM250ar
http://www.europeanmotorcycle-diaries.com/2014/02/honda-crm250-ar-strangest-honda-ever.html
http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/12368-Low-emissions-CRM250AR

Since Neil has both transfer port petrol injection and an Autoflight engine running on LPG at hand, we probably won't have to wait long :D.

I look forward to it.
Hes gone quiet so i suspect he up to something.

[lohring]

I've been a hard core two stroke guy since high school where I built a model engine in shop. Over the next 60 years I've played, tuned, tested, and destroyed a lot of engines. My emphasis has been mostly on racing and I've been involved in setting several model boat racing records. I did a lot of inertial dyno work (http://www.modelgasboats.com/magazine/tech-articles-mainmenu-608/244-cmb-35-record-engine) along the way. Two strokes dominated this small engine market because they are cheap and simple. It's easy to tune them for more full throttle power. Fuel economy and emissions haven't mattered.

Now the handwriting is on the wall. Electric power is taking over in models because modern batteries and control systems are making them easier at the same cost. Soon the cost will be even lower. The fastest model boats (http://www.ne-stuff.net/2016/10/285393kmh-new-rc-boat-world-record.html) have had electric power plants for quite a while. There's still a little development in gasoline fueled engines, thanks to low cost small weedeater engines, but open fuel engine development has stagnated.

This story, as the video points out, is starting in full size vehicles. My first experience was in 2008 when we set the full size electric boat record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yNu2_LlO9s). The lithium polymer batteries for that boat cost $14,000 wholesale. Today you can get batteries that deliver over twice the power at less than half that cost. Road vehicles, a less demanding application, are seeing more electric vehicles. Norway, thanks to a lot of government incentives, is leading the way, but cost issues alone will start to drive the transition. Kids will look at IC engines in museums and ask grandpa how anyone could build those complicated things.

Lohring Miller

[husaberg]

I've been a hard core two stroke guy since high school where I built a model engine in shop. Over the next 60 years I've played, tuned, tested, and destroyed a lot of engines. My emphasis has been mostly on racing and I've been involved in setting several model boat racing records. I did a lot of inertial dyno work (http://www.modelgasboats.com/magazine/tech-articles-mainmenu-608/244-cmb-35-record-engine) along the way. Two strokes dominated this small engine market because they are cheap and simple. It's easy to tune them for more full throttle power. Fuel economy and emissions haven't mattered.

Now the handwriting is on the wall. Electric power is taking over in models because modern batteries and control systems are making them easier at the same cost. Soon the cost will be even lower. The fastest model boats (http://www.ne-stuff.net/2016/10/285393kmh-new-rc-boat-world-record.html) have had electric power plants for quite a while. There's still a little development in gasoline fueled engines, thanks to low cost small weedeater engines, but open fuel engine development has stagnated.

This story, as the video points out, is starting in full size vehicles. My first experience was in 2008 when we set the full size electric boat record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yNu2_LlO9s). The lithium polymer batteries for that boat cost $14,000 wholesale. Today you can get batteries that deliver over twice the power at less than half that cost. Road vehicles, a less demanding application, are seeing more electric vehicles. Norway, thanks to a lot of government incentives, is leading the way, but cost issues alone will start to drive the transition. Kids will look at IC engines in museums and ask grandpa how anyone could build those complicated things.

Lohring Miller

Electric is seen by many to be clean, as it doesn't give off direct emissions, yet it production in most parts of the world does.
Electricity as a motive esp as a flight power souce has on big disadvantage it says the same weight as it discharges its energy as well as producing less energy as it nears full discharge
Fuel is the oposite it get lighter as it lowers its fuel load.

Your weedeater as a rc engine coment made me thing of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk293eyL3MM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEC8f8J4NMs

[WilDun]

Electric is seen by many to be clean, as it doesn't give off direct emissions, yet it production in most parts of the world does.
Maybe but it's pollutants aren't dumped in the middle of a city - nothing produced by humans is clean! ...... from shit to politics!:laugh:


Your weedeater as a rc engine coment made me thing of this.
There are a lot more lightweight and more high performance engines (not weedeater engines) nowadays which are purpose built for model aircraft, I wouldn't be surprised to see them being built with a generator powering a motor for each propeller (on a twin or four prop model) not a lot of battery required! The two stroke still reigns supreme for power to weight ratio in aircraft (and is not suppressed by rules and legislation) - as yet!

BTW, Not meaning to belittle this guy's effort of course - he managed to build this machine for virtually sweet FA!

[husaberg]

Maybe but it's pollutants aren't dumped in the middle of a city - nothing produced by humans is clean! ...... from shit to politics!:laugh:

They do say cities are densely populated.:msn-wink:

[lohring]

Actually, the emissions from electrical power generation depend on where you live, According to the Union of Concerned Scientists (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions), a gasoline powered car would need to get between 35 mpg in a few states and 93 mpg where I live to have equal lifetime emissions to an electric car. Their calculator (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#z/97477/2017/Tesla/Model%20S%20AWD%20-%20P100D) says a Tesla Model S P100D produces the same warming effect as a gasoline car that gets 69 mpg in my town. Most of our power is generated by hydroelectric dams.

Lohring Miller

[Ocean1]

Actually, the emissions from electrical power generation depend on where you live, According to the Union of Concerned Scientists (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions), a gasoline powered car would need to get between 35 mpg in a few states and 93 mpg where I live to have equal lifetime emissions to an electric car. Their calculator (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#z/97477/2017/Tesla/Model%20S%20AWD%20-%20P100D) says a Tesla Model S P100D produces the same warming effect as a gasoline car that gets 69 mpg in my town. Most of our power is generated by hydroelectric dams.

Lohring Miller

Yes, the commonly held belief that electric is clean is simplistic at best.

Also depends when you charge it. You might be using hydro overnight, but peak demand is usually dirty, fuel oil or coal.

[WilDun]

Looks like electric is out and two strokes are in again!
Electricity here is generated mainly by hydro electric generators, but gas turbine engines based on aircraft and boat engines are also used here and are serviced by Air New Zealand, so we have the alternatives of oil or gas fired power stations, wind and increasingly solar power - we still don't use nuclear power and the wisdom of this is borne out by the events in earthquake prone Japan (which is really very similar to NZ.).

What are we going to do with all our coal now that all the mines are closing? we have good coal in the south Island and oodles of brown coal in the Waikato. They say that there is one good use for brown coal and that is for extracting steel from magnetite (black iron sand) we also have oodles of that!

........but how about HCCI two stroke engines driving electric motors via generators? - then maybe that will put all the gear makers out of business!

[husaberg]

Actually, the emissions from electrical power generation depend on where you live, According to the Union of Concerned Scientists (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions), a gasoline powered car would need to get between 35 mpg in a few states and 93 mpg where I live to have equal lifetime emissions to an electric car. Their calculator (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#z/97477/2017/Tesla/Model%20S%20AWD%20-%20P100D) says a Tesla Model S P100D produces the same warming effect as a gasoline car that gets 69 mpg in my town. Most of our power is generated by hydroelectric dams.

Lohring Miller

Yeah i did include a caveat, but even clean hydro is responsible for vast amounts of Methane as the vegetation underneath man made dams decomposes.
Not to mention the disposal and resources used to manufacture rear earth magnets and batteries.

Most of the objections to hydro power in NZ come from green intersts and recreational users.

What are we going to do with all our coal now that all the mines are closing? we have good coal in the south Island and oodles of brown coal in the Waikato. They say that there is one good use for !

You will always need high quality coal for manufacturing quality high carbon steel.
The mines may have closed but the mineral permits and licences have been sold off to investors.

[Niels Abildgaard]

You will always need high quality coal for manufacturing quality high carbon steel.
The mines may have closed but the mineral permits and licences have been sold off to investors.

Do not be sure

http://www.thefifthestate.com.au/innovation/building-construction/sweden-aims-for-first-place-in-carbon-free-steel-race/81456

[husaberg]

Do not be sure

http://www.thefifthestate.com.au/innovation/building-construction/sweden-aims-for-first-place-in-carbon-free-steel-race/81456
yeah sounds real clean:lol:

Hydrogen from what?
So where will it come from? Sweden is already one of the most progressive countries in the world in the energy transition to a fossil-free world, with 52 per cent of energy already being renewable, 40 per cent being nuclear, a target of being carbon neutral by 2050, and a policy roadmap for 2025-2050 due next January.
Vattenfall runs seven nuclear power stations in the country, but is to decommission two of them. The other five are expected to remain operational until 2040-45. The company manages plants in five northern European nations, some of which are fossil-based, but in Sweden its installed capacity generation mix is 59 per cent hydropower, 33 per cent nuclear, 1.88 per cent wind, 4.87 per cent fossil fuel and 1.31 per cent biomass and waste.

[eldog]

You will always need high quality coal for manufacturing quality high carbon steel.
The mines may have closed but the mineral permits and licences have been sold off to investors.

:Offtopic: Closed why? The answer is all to obvious.
costing more $ to close than keep at minimum status?

investors win.

what a waste.

pike river......

i suppose in 20 years someone will write a book.

the waste, it annoys me.

rant over.

[WilDun]

When geothermal activity etc. from geysers to volcanoes is constantly spewing emissions (seen and unseen on the surface and deep underwater) into the atmosphere, who the hell do we think we are? ie by believing that we are the cause of all the pollution anyway?

If all the engines on the planet were two stroke, their contribution to pollution would be dwarfed by what naturally comes out of the earth!
Two strokes of today don't spew out stuff like their ancestors did anyway (ie the old Jawas Villiers, Seagull outboards etc.etc) and if the manufacturers had to, they could clean them up even more and provide us with clean simple, powerful and cheap machinery, - it's there if we really want it.
Unfortunately, we want to pay more and more for complicated, heavy and expensive four strokes, just like a lot of people today, who would rather get ripped off by buying bottled water in pretty packages instead of getting the same from the tap for virtually nothing.

There I go again ...... sorry!

[husaberg]

When geothermal activity etc. from geysers to volcanoes is constantly spewing emissions (seen and unseen on the surface and deep underwater) into the atmosphere, who the hell do we think we are? ie by believing that we are the cause of all the pollution anyway?
!

The hole in the ozone layer just so happened to be above a very active mount Erebus
People who clainmed the NZ high rate of skin cancer on account of it didn't seem to notice the sun comes from the north in NZ.
From memory Mount Erebus produces more chlorinated gasses into the atmosphere in one year than all of the CFCs combined.
As well as a heck of a lot of CO2

[WilDun]

The hole in the ozone layer just so happened to be above a very active mount Erebus
People who clainmed the NZ high rate of skin cancer on account of it didn't seem to notice the sun comes from the north in NZ.

There you go, so we can now safely conclude that the two strokes in New Zealand are not responsible for the hole in the ozone after all!
I think that the high rates of skin cancer here are due to the lack of brown haze to shield us from the sun as you would expect in the northern hemisphere! :laugh:

BTW just watched the TT, not a two stroke in sight this year (Suter must think that two stroke development has reached its limit). They were all on four strokes and were still enjoying themselves - how could that possibly be? ;)

[Frits Overmars]

... just watched the TT, not a two stroke in sight this year. They were all on four strokes and were still enjoying themselves - how could that possibly be? ;)The absence of beautiful girls at the ball will make the ugly ones happy :D.

[guyhockley]

BTW just watched the TT, not a two stroke in sight this year (Suter must think that two stroke development has reached its limit).

"
Suter withdraws from the Isle of Man TT 2017
This year, Suter will not participate in the Isle of Man TT (https://www.facebook.com/TTIsleofMan/?fref=mentions) with its spectacular 2stroke Suter MMX 500. Due to major structural changes in the company by additional considerable engineering projects, Suter faces temporary qualified personnel shortage. Eskil Suter, Chairman of Suter Industries, regrets this year’s abstinence from the Isle of Man Senior TT: “Especially as we have improved the MMX 500 after last year’s debut in terms of rideability in a great way, and knowing that the fan base supporting us is huge, it was a hard decision to take.” However, for 2018 Suter is planning to return to the beautiful Isle of Man hoping that last year rider Ian Lougher (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ian-Lougher/131961520173723?fref=mentions) who was important for the development of the MMX 500 will be available again to ride the beast around the Snaefall Mountain Course.
#SUTERIndustries (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/suterindustries?source=feed_text&story_id=1323979857688932) #MMX500 (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/mmx500?source=feed_text&story_id=1323979857688932) #IoMTT17 (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/iomtt17?source=feed_text&story_id=1323979857688932)"

[guyhockley]

As the latest edition of Classic Racer has just come out, I figure posting this won't cost them any sales :whistle::whistle:

[WilDun]

"
Suter withdraws from the Isle of Man TT 2017................the MMX 500 will be available again to ride the beast around the Snaefall Mountain Course.


That is good news - I do hope they can improve the (highly visible) smoke, because that alone will make the average Joe Blow and dumb (but influential) lawmaker hate two strokes, even though that isn't really the problem!
Ultimately Joe Blow is the the one who forks out the cash, he doesn't know (or care) about specifications or how sophisticated it is mechanically, he only goes on visual effect and street cred and if the trend is away from two strokes then no amount of wisdom poured into the mechanical design of the thing will make any difference whatsoever.
Again and again I keep saying that Harley Davidson managed to keep their name an Icon even though they were using pre WW2 technology (certainly early fifties anyway) - how did they do that? - by skilful marketing - similarly H***A put a spanner in the works for two strokes even though two strokes were progressing well ....... how did they do that? - by skilful marketing (and bullying).

Good to see that this year in racing circles that H***A are having a hard time keeping up with the others and at their own game too - maybe they will have to reverse engineer their politics and turn to two strokes for help once more!


As the latest edition of Classic Racer has just come out, I figure posting this won't cost them any sales :whistle::whistle:

That is a brilliant effort, pity the original didn't manage to establish itself properly (but just to take on the giants at the time was a virtual impossibility) the only person who managed that was Jan Theil ( Jamathi) - he had to join them eventually of course! - but good on him for using his head!

[tjbw]

...

BTW just watched the TT, not a two stroke in sight this year (Suter must think that two stroke development has reached its limit). They were all on four strokes and were still enjoying themselves - how could that possibly be? ;)

I was sorry to hear that John McGuinness crashed during practice at North West 200, breaking various bones. He would have been hard to beat at the TT.

I went to Barcelona, and watched MotoGP! They were struggling with lack of grip, and I saw Marco Marquez come of at the same corner in final practice, and again in qualifying. Race was won by Andrea Dovizioso on a Ducati.

Here's a little video that you may enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XXPGE0klmc

[WilDun]

I was sorry to hear that John McGuinness crashed during practice at North West 200, breaking various bones. He would have been hard to beat at the TT.

I went to Barcelona, and watched MotoGP! They were struggling with lack of grip, and I saw Marco Marquez come of at the same corner in final practice, and again in qualifying. Race was won by Andrea Dovizioso on a Ducati.

Here's a little video that you may enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XXPGE0klmc

If only! .......... I'm not as old as those guys (just looks like I am) and it would be great to do that, but the reality (for me anyway) would be "silly old fool" :rolleyes:
Then once upon a time I was regarded as a silly young fool - way back in the days when the Wankel engine was going to revolutionize everything! - y'know when men were men and didnt need frilly accessories for their bikes - women were much happier then!

Dovizioso is the most intelligent rider of them all, pity about his compatriot Iannone, what has gone wrong with that guy?

[husaberg]

As the latest edition of Classic Racer has just come out, I figure posting this won't cost them any sales :whistle::whistle:

is that missing a page or two at the end?
Anyway its a great read and very pretty bike. the Vic camp ducatis seat and tanks always were nice looking. Being copiedon the works design.
I have a few write ups on the works single kicking arround somewhere.

[ken seeber]

?
Anyway its a great read and very pretty bike. the Vic camp ducatis seat and tanks always were nice looking. Being copiedon the works design.
I have a few write ups on the works single kicking arround somewhere.

Good stuff. I always just love(d) the look of the classic alloy rime (Akront ?), no good for motocross (scrambles then) cos they filled up with mud.:cry:

Reckon the inlet system would have been ultimately restrictive, but it was ages ago.

[husaberg]

Good stuff. I always just love(d) the look of the classic alloy rime (Akront ?), no good for motocross (scrambles then) cos they filled up with mud.:cry:

Reckon the inlet system would have been ultimately restrictive, but it was ages ago.

I think the classic fitment was Borranis, Dunlop used to do them as well. BSA used both sometimes on the one bike.
I have a japanese flanged rim one sitting here at the moment, i think its TX650 i only need the hub as its no good for me as its 19 inch.
they do have a certain appeal.

One of my first posts on KB was about the alpha twins and singles.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130078505#post1130078505

[guyhockley]

is that missing a page or two at the end?
I think that's all of it but I don't have the magazine to check.

[tjbw]

...

Dovizioso is the most intelligent rider of them all, pity about his compatriot Iannone, what has gone wrong with that guy?

I think Marquez had the pace to win, but settled for the 2nd place points, having fallen off too much prior to the race, so I think he's smart too.

[tjbw]

We've had quite a few uniflow two strokes here, but here's an oddball prototype from Ferrari, featuring exhaust poppet valves.

[WilDun]

The absence of beautiful girls at the ball will make the ugly ones happy :D.

Yes Frits, but the reason for a lack of the beautiful girls you mentioned is often that they have a nasty habit of lying down, surrendering and becoming second best! (see the similaritiy with two strokes?).



We've had quite a few uniflow two strokes here, but here's an oddball prototype from Ferrari, featuring exhaust poppet valves.

A lot of those have been tried on and off but none seems to have met with much success probably because they are as complicated and heavy as a four stroke with more marginal lubrication and pollution .......... that's what I think anyway.

Yes Marquez is brilliant but much more aggressive and falls off trying to ride a bike at 110% (which really isn't the best bike out there at the moment) !

[WilDun]

Is this thread going? .....going ....... going ....... gon ........ hang on a minute, one more bid coming up!
It seems that Mazda have decided to actually put an HCCI engine into production next year (very brave move) but then they have always been game, those guys! They have (wisely) also kept some of their range on conventional engines. Also they haven't ventured into HCCI two strokes which are still only "pie in the sky" - unless somebody else knows differently! - can't remember where I saw the link but I'll look for it.

There you go:- http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1108403_report-mazda-to-launch-hcci-engine-in-2018

[EssexNick]

Good find. I don't think this thread's dead yet, just resting.

[Michael Moore]

Once you've posted about all the historic oddball engines you've got to wait for new ones to be built, which doesn't happen overnight.

[WilDun]

Good find. I don't think this thread's dead yet, just resting.

Yes, guess it's resting - it often does! but even so, it has actually got to the 100th page - there has been quite a lot of interesting stuff come up, a lot of it historic interesting stuff of course, which was bound to run out eventually. ( Michael, you and I must have been typing at the same time and came up with the same thing! but I went to make a cup of coffee!).

HCCI is relatively new and if it reaches the motorcycle scene then I guess it will fire up here again (or at ESE depending on what the hot subject there is at the time).
The Ryger created quite a stir or at least the promise of the Ryger did! (in the Kart racing scene anyway), but Mazda is a large successful company who bravely plodded on with the Wankel engine, which they more or less appear to have given up on now - No doubt they wanted to concentrate on the HCCI project instead.
There are also some other companies who are making use of normal engine design practice, with important new additions in the area of the transition of power from the piston to crankshaft, technology which, if "meshed" with HCCI could produce some interesting and much more favourable power curves than the "normal" engines of today can produce.
No doubt we'll see this all in action reasonably soon!

[Frits Overmars]

...Mazda is a large successful company who bravely plodded on with the Wankel engine, which they more or less appear to have given up on now - No doubt they wanted to concentrate on the HCCI project instead.I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda started looking into HCCI because of their Wankel engine.
Wankels suffer from a horrible combustion chamber shape and an accordingly mediocre flame speed and extended combustion duration. But with HCCI that wouldn't matter because combustion would start in all nooks and crannies simultaneously without the need for a flame to travel to the farthest corners of the chamber.
The ultrafast HCCI combustion would also somewhat counteract the high heat losses due to the bad chamber volume / surface area ratio of a Wankel.

I've got a GIF comparing combustion speeds in HCCI, spark ignition and diesel systems. It's too big to attach it here but you can view it on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/105572222948183/?multi_permalinks=756094544562611&comment_id=756239117881487&notif_t=like&notif_id=1498668946694411

Food for thought, isn't it?

https://www.facebook.com/frits.overmars.5/videos/10207380387468294/

[WilDun]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda started looking into HCCI because of their Wankel engine.

...........Food for thought, isn't it?

I was thinking that too! but as I don't know a lot about the Wankel then I'd better not say too much! (probably don't know a lot about anything really! but then we're still allowed to think a little and opinions aren't a crime!)
I seem to remember that someone wrote about the Wankel being suitable for Hydrogen as the combustion chamber shape would be compatible with that fuel and thought, what about Wankel/HCCI/Hydrogen?
Don't think they ever completely eliminated the sealing problems in the Wankel though and someone somewhere on the net pointed out that just at the beginning of the ignition/power stroke there is actually a reversing force on the rotor, I didn't study that very closely at the time though.

[husaberg]

I was thinking that too! but as I don't know a lot about the Wankel then I'd better not say too much! (probably don't know a lot about anything really! but then we're still allowed to think a little and opinions aren't a crime!)
I seem to remember that someone wrote about the Wankel being suitable for Hydrogen as the combustion chamber shape would be compatible with that fuel and thought, what about Wankel/HCCI/Hydrogen?
Don't think they ever completely eliminated the sealing problems in the Wankel though and someone somewhere on the net pointed out that just at the beginning of the ignition/power stroke there is actually a reversing force on the rotor, I didn't study that very closely at the time though.

Mazda experimented extensively with Hydrogen as the wankel is most suited to its application, as it has slow combustion and separate areas for its cycles.

[Frits Overmars]

I seem to remember that someone wrote about the Wankel being suitable for Hydrogen as the combustion chamber shape would be compatible with that fuel and thought, what about Wankel/HCCI/Hydrogen?Hydrogen mimics HCCI in a couple of ways: it burns very fast and it is largely indifferent to the fuel/air ratio; ratios that would be too rich or too lean for petrol spark-ignition, will still ignite and burn happily when the fuel is hydrogen.


Someone pointed out that just at the beginning of the ignition/power stroke there is actually a reversing force on the rotor.That is not different from any conventional piston engine, wherein combustion already starts to create a pressure rise before TDC. If we would ignite at TDC, a large part of the combustion proces would take place when the piston is already well on its way down again.
This is one more advantage of HCCI: whereas normal spark combustion duration may take more than 50 crank degrees, HCCI combustion may elapse ten times as fast,
or even faster, judging by the combustion modes comparison that I posted above. So with HCCI we can afford to let combustion begin at TDC, so avoiding any negative combustion force on the piston. This, together with the more complete combustion and the lower heat losses, gives HCCI its good efficiency.

[WilDun]

Hydrogen mimics HCCI in a couple of ways: it burns very fast and it is largely indifferent to the fuel/air ratio; ratios that would be too rich or too lean for petrol spark-ignition, will still ignite and burn happily when the fuel is hydrogen.................. So with HCCI we can afford to let combustion begin at TDC, so avoiding any negative combustion force on the piston. This, together with the more complete combustion and the lower heat losses, gives HCCI its good efficiency.

Mazda will then have a very distinct advantage in developing HCCI especially if the Wankel does turn out to be useful after all, both from their previous Wankel experience and present piston HCCI experience.
I think that I turned against the Wankel engine when in the earlier stages of its development (in the NSU) when I saw a dismantled engine with some pretty serious ripples in the bore. Also when all the young "boy racer" types got their hands on the RX Mazdas and butchered them till they became very noisy, lumpy smelly and unmanageable fire breathing monsters - sad end to a basically promising idea!

I'm told that they are exceptionally smooth and compact, and I must say that rotary motion appeals to me more than reciprocating motion with its 'power robbing'' reversals (has worked well for a long time though) - it's a pity the rotaries didn't tick as many boxes from the word go, as the piston engine did.

[WilDun]

.......... a large part of the combustion process would take place when the piston is already well on its way down again............
This is one more advantage of HCCI: whereas normal spark combustion duration may take more than 50 crank degrees, HCCI combustion may elapse ten times as fast, ......... we can afford to let combustion begin at TDC, so avoiding any negative combustion force on the ........together with the more complete combustion and the lower heat losses, gives HCCI its good efficiency.

I know that in practice it isn't the case, but to cause less power there must be another reason we need to have advance - at say 10 to fifteen degrees after tdc (in a normal engine) there must be some very unnecessarily heavy and unproductive forces on the rod and bearing instead of turning force?? yet it appears to be totally necessary to have this advance, maybe if I study it more carefully I'll find that question has already been answered!:rolleyes:

[Frits Overmars]

I think that I turned against the Wankel engine when in the earlier stages of its development (in the NSU) when I saw a dismantled engine with some pretty serious ripples in the bore.NSU made the mistake of putting an immature engine in series production. It gave the Wankel a bad reputation and killed NSU. The only good it did for us, was Nikasil, which was developed to combat the rattling marks in the Wankel housings.


I'm told that they are exceptionally smooth and compact, and I must say that rotary motion appeals to me more than reciprocating motion with its 'power robbing'' reversals (has worked well for a long time though) - it's a pity the rotaries didn't tick as many boxes from the word go, as the piston engine did.If you look beyond the ancilliaries, a Wankel is a very compact engine. But it was in its initial stage, up against the reciprocating piston engine that had already seen many decades of development, so ticking the boxes from the word go was hard to do.
Below is the Mazda 787B, a 700 hp naturally-aspirated four-rotor engine (yes, with trombone inlets). Feel free to compare its size with any other engine type that produces the same power.
331527 331529 331528

http://www.spannerhead.com/2012/10/06/interesting-engines-mazdas-r26b/

And listen to it. Turn up the volume :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jAngoCbOMg#t=0m8s

BTW, those power robbing reversals in the conventional piston engine aren't all that bad. It does take power to accelerate a piston away from TDC, but that same power (minus some friction losses) is delivered back to the crankshaft when the piston has to be slowed down as it nears BDC.
Still, I too am charmed by the Wankel. I think that, had it been developed before the reciprocating piston engine, the latter would never have become the main type of internal combustion engine.

[eldog]

I was told Wankel engines were more suited to higher speed constant rpm operations,
how true is that opinion?

[tjbw]

I was the proud owner of an NSU RO80. Loved it, very smooth comfortable drive, but heavy on petrol consumption.

NSU thought the answer to tip seal problems was to make the seals harder, but then the housings got worn instead, resulting in reduced compression. Mazda did a much better job with their seals.

[tjbw]

The Triumph Rocket III may, or may not, be an oddball bike, but this advert for it is definitely oddball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0LSh97AbMw