Oddball engines and prototypes [Archive] - Page 9

tjbw

4th January 2018, 16:12

I should have read the book before I said anything! :o :laugh:

Guess this thread is good for finding out about this sort of stuff in a leisurely fashion instead of the speculation and controversy of the big Ryger debate and the pressure to get it performing in a certain time!

So it looks like Bradshaw wasn't afraid to make a mistake or two! (and that is a good thing in my opinion ) but I'm still not convinced about the use of short conrods though, or even the need for one!
I wonder if there might be a couple of examples lying around somewhere in the UK or Europe, not recognised as being important which could be restored or copied just to find out.

Nice find by Grumph, and I've been finding out more about it in a leisurely fashion. Had to have a peep in the book to see the short conrod. I wonder if you could say this engine had two junk heads per cylinder.

Anyway, I think it's a very interesting design. The piston reminds me of a sketch in Draper's "Two Stroke Engine Design And Tuning" book published in 1960. Also the transfers from lower "supercharging chamber" feed the adjacent cylinder, and that's similar to the Ralph Olds patent for a stepped piston engine, that was featured earlier in this topic. It seems that the inlet port to that chamber has been "omitted for clarity".

WilDun

4th January 2018, 16:44

The sketch in Draper's book always interested me (depends on whether we are describing the same sketch of course!) and I'm sure that something along those lines could have been possible if there was some form of positive control of the outer portion of the piston especially when even light things like reeds are sometimes hard to control!
I'm not at home just now, but I'll dig up the book, scan the pic and post it later.

Grumph

4th January 2018, 21:10

Nice find by Grumph, and I've been finding out more about it in a leisurely fashion. Had to have a peep in the book to see the short conrod. I wonder if you could say this engine had two junk heads per cylinder.

Yeah, I didn't post that pic as my main point was the similarity of the basic layout to the Ryger.
Personally I think he was trying to do too much by intoducing the second layer of piston and compression - but by putting it on the drawing, I suppose he was covering the possibilities.

ken seeber

5th January 2018, 20:23

guyhockley

5th January 2018, 23:01

A "Commer knocker diesel 2 stroke outboard" from the UK ???

http://www.coxmarine.com/en/

It's a crappy website, but a friend said it's like the Commer, but he also said it has moving sleeves. Don't get too excited yet Fletto :facepalm:

So Guy, seeing you live up that way, please drop in and report back asap. :scooter:

Website certainly doesn't tell you much, pictures look like staged nonsense - some bloke fixing the plumbing etc. Some of the claims are a bit dubious too, surely? "F1 concept of opposed pistons"? There have been proposals but has there ever been an actual OP F1 engine?
Maybe it sounded better than "The Nazi tech that bombed your grandparents" :facepalm:

Anyway that sparked a memory of John Lievesley being a fan of opposed piston engines and it turned out I had this on my hard drive. Wonder if he's the F1 engine designer in question?

Frits Overmars

6th January 2018, 00:48

A "Commer knocker diesel 2 stroke outboard" from the UK ??? http://www.coxmarine.com/en/
It's a crappy website...
Website certainly doesn't tell you much, pictures look like staged nonsense My thoughts exactly, but I refrained from expressing them; I'm afraid I criticize enough as it is. Like below :p.

that sparked a memory of John Lievesley being a fan of opposed piston engines and it turned out I had this on my hard drive. Wonder if he's the F1 engine designer in question?I nice read (I mean that) and quite instructive. I always thought that the difference between metric degrees and imperial degrees was temperature-only, with Kelvin, Celsius, Fahrenheit, etc. But the picture below suggests there's a goniometrical difference as well: that '20 degree included angle' looks exactly 10° to me.334507

And there were some other surprises that I would not expect from a F1-designer, especially one who is fond of two-strokes. Like his remark, talking about an engine design with a fixed 40 mm stroke:
If we make the cylinder bore smaller to reduce the risk of overheating the exhaust piston crown, then we reduce the available port area.So what? Halving the bore will halve the port area, but it will quarter the cylinder capacity, so it will double the specific port area. Everything you could wish for...

The next eye opener:
Junkers produced a successful diesel aero engine... it used a single crank to control the piston set that was adjacent to the crank via conventional connecting rods,
while the pistons of the opposite set were attached to the crank by pairs of very long connecting rods outside and parallel to the cylinders.I always thought I knew my Junkers, especially their most successful diesel aero engine, the Jumo 205, pictured below with two crankshafts....
334505 334506

guyhockley

6th January 2018, 05:52

My thoughts exactly, but I refrained from expressing them; I'm afraid I criticize enough as it is.

Oh, I don't know, you let me get away with my wildly innacurate "Nazi tech" remark! :eek5::yes:

tjbw

6th January 2018, 06:54

Website certainly doesn't tell you much, pictures look like staged nonsense - some bloke fixing the plumbing etc. Some of the claims are a bit dubious too, surely? "F1 concept of opposed pistons"? There have been proposals but has there ever been an actual OP F1 engine?

....

Anyway that sparked a memory of John Lievesley being a fan of opposed piston engines and it turned out I had this on my hard drive. Wonder if he's the F1 engine designer in question?

I'm a big fan of opposed piston engines, from the Jumo to Achates, but none have been used in F1 as far as I'm aware.

F1 engines are homologated, with V6 90 degree poppet valve four stroke engines at the moment.

I did find this possible F1 connection, copied from https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/august-2008-online/b3-buyout-brings-leading-f1-innovators-together/

" ... David Cox, who emerged as the brains behind the Brabham BT46B ‘fan car’ which stunned the F1 world by winning on its debut at the 1978 Swedish Grand Prix. Cox has wide experience outside the world of motorsport with projects such as the Thames Barrier where he was in charge of the mechanical design section and Eurofighter."

Also, Ken - hope you are well!

Grumph

6th January 2018, 07:37

I'm a big fan of opposed piston engines, from the Jumo to Achates, but none have been used in F1 as far as I'm aware.

Not F1 but
"Probably the fastest car of the pre-Grand Prix period was the opposed piston Gobron Brille which in 1904 was the first I.C. engined car officially to exceed 100mph " Quote from The Grand Prix Car 1906 - 1939 by Laurence Pomeroy.

Seems to have been a dead end with conventional engine types taking over.

Frits - you maintained a tactful silence when I posted the Bradshaw Ryger progenitor. When does your non - disclosure agreement expire ?

WilDun

6th January 2018, 08:53

........"Probably the fastest car of the pre-Grand Prix period was the opposed piston Gobron Brille which in 1904 was the first I.C. engined car officially to exceed 100mph " Quote from The Grand Prix Car 1906 - 1939 by Laurence Pomeroy.
Seems to have been a dead end with conventional engine types taking over.............

I would think that the good old inline four was a much more convenient "compromise", relatively compact and easy to work on, easy to balance! - above all, cheaper to produce! - what more can I say?
Having said all that, the opposed piston engine appeals to me and is never out of my mind, biggest problem is it's awkward shape and difficulty of getting the reciprocating motion turned tidily into rotary motion (1 output shaft) stops it from competing with conventional engines
.
Gowbron Brillie, Commer/Sultzer etc, were brave attempts to simplify things by complicating them! The Commer was actually quite successful though.

The only other successful engine using the KIC (keep it complicated) principle was a complicated development of the Junkers Jumo (which it seems Napier had been building under licence) called the "Napier Deltic" which was used successfully for many years on British trains and possibly torpedo boats.
...... or something like that! :yes:

pete376403

6th January 2018, 09:23

The only other successful engine using the KIC (keep it complicated) principle was a complicated development of the Junkers Jumo (which it seems Napier had been building under licence) called the "Napier Deltic" which was used successfully for many years on British trains and possibly torpedo boats.
...... or something like that! :yes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Nasty-class_patrol_boat

WilDun

6th January 2018, 20:15

One link leads to another .....

>>>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic

>>>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic#/media/File:Napier_Deltic_Animation.gif

Frits Overmars

6th January 2018, 23:58

My thoughts exactly, but I refrained from expressing them; I'm afraid I criticize enough as it is.
Oh, I don't know, you let me get away with my wildly innacurate "Nazi tech" remark!I let you get away with it for the simple reason that you were right. Most German bombers had Mercedes or BMW engines, but Junkers powerplants visited London too.

Frits - you maintained a tactful silence when I posted the Bradshaw Ryger progenitor. When does your non-disclosure agreement expire ?In about a decade or when one of the legal parties involved ceases to exist -whatever comes first :whistle:

Grumph

7th January 2018, 07:49

In about a decade or when one of the legal parties involved ceases to exist -whatever comes first :whistle:

So I'd better hope I get the cardiac bypass surgery they're talking about if I want to hear the real story....

WilDun

7th January 2018, 08:18

Oh, I don't know, you let me get away with my wildly innacurate "Nazi tech" remark! :eek5::yes:

Guy, we have all been a bit worried about the accuracy of our statements sometimes! - it is also easy to misinterperet peoples' posts here (not having a facial expression to judge it by)! - so I guess it is up to the skill of the person writing the reply to get the message across properly!

Me? a total disaster! but I have learnt to say things as I understand them (ie to the best of my ability) and rely on others to correct me (so long as they know) - guess that's what forums are all about!
I am open to and can handle 'sensible' criticisim from those who know, so long as they don't get it wrong or do it in a persistent cynical manner - other than that I am an easy going guy!

My wife tells me that the frontal lobe of my brain has deteriorated somewhat! ......... but I don't care, (that in fact is a symptom of this condition) - it does have an upside though, it allows us old guys to say what we think! and we are (nearly) always right :rolleyes: :facepalm:

guyhockley

7th January 2018, 10:11

I let you get away with it for the simple reason that you were right. Most German bombers had Mercedes or BMW engines, but Junkers powerplants visited London too.

In about a decade or when one of the legal parties involved ceases to exist -whatever comes first :whistle:
I was basing my remark on the fact that the Jumo was already a successful design before Germany's best Charlie Chaplin impersonator took over, I think?

Does legal parties mean individuals or if the Ryger company stops trading would that remove the shackles?

guyhockley

7th January 2018, 10:38

Guy, we have all been a bit worried about the accuracy of our statements sometimes! - it is also easy to misinterperet peoples' posts here (not having a facial expression to judge it by)! - so I guess it is up to the skill of the person writing the reply to get the message across properly!

Me? a total disaster! but I have learnt to say things as I understand them (ie to the best of my ability) and rely on others to correct me (so long as they know) - guess that's what forums are all about!
I am open to and can handle 'sensible' criticisim from those who know, so long as they don't get it wrong or do it in a persistent cynical manner - other than that I am an easy going guy!

My wife tells me that the frontal lobe of my brain has deteriorated somewhat! ......... but I don't care, (that in fact is a symptom of this condition) - it does have an upside though, it allows us old guys to say what we think! and we are (nearly) always right :rolleyes: :facepalm:

I always enjoy reading your stuff, way off topic, but, I'm married to the eldest of 5 children, their dad is 83 and lives 5 miles from us (oops! 8k). Mother-in-law died a couple of years back (Alzheimer's) and the brother and sisters live 2-3 hours away. They are constantly telling him what he shouldn't be doing, including driving, when he lives in the most northerly village in Dorset with almost no facilities. Apparently, we shouldn't let him drive to visit us or to go to football or do just about anything. Thing is, they're wearing him down into the image they (want to?) have of him. He's absolutely fine, people who meet him never believe how old he is...
He has a plan for us to enter some summer trials, that should cause some, err, "interest".
Keep kicking, Will, and sorry to hear some other gents on here have ticker trouble.

WilDun

7th January 2018, 16:44

...... Apparently, we shouldn't let him drive to visit us or to go to football or do just about anything. Thing is, they're wearing him down into the image they (want to?) have of him. He's absolutely fine, people who meet him never believe how old he is...
He has a plan for us to enter some summer trials, that should cause some, err, "interest".
Keep kicking, Will, and sorry to hear some other gents on here have ticker trouble.

First of all, good luck to our old mate from Aus hope we see him on here soon again with his contributions!

Your father in law sounds like my old man used to be!
I'm not nearly as old as he is of course, but I'm a little worse for wear medically, which effectively puts me in his bracket! So I'm starting to get the same problems with the family and I do understand his position (and theirs too of course!) they do care, but my mechanical aspirations are on a totally different wavelength to them!

Think I'm supposed to be a gardener and bowls player now, like any other sensible person instead of a grumpy 'would-be' engineer/foundryman/mechanic!

I was advised by the doctor to stop driving a few years ago because of my ticker, also my immobile neck which makes it difficult to turn right on to a busy road, but I've fixed all that with "smoke and mirrors", lots of swivelable mirrors and smoke from the tyres when I "plant" it when pulling out! :facepalm:
I have about one and a half years to build an engine, prob with the odd tip maybe from Flettner, TZ and Grumph etc. My life will then become very restricted because I most probably won't get another drivers licence and I won't be able to nip out to the scrapyard and other nice places anymore!
I can't even contemplate riding a bike because if I drop it, it'll be curtains for me! - my mind is willing but the body can't keep up!

I was a little disappointed though, when a while back someone on the forum (ESE thread - and I won't say who) suggested that anyone who wasn't involved with Bucket Racing or building and racing a Bucket shouldn't be here! and suggested that I might be an alcoholic who sat in front of the computer drinking all night. :rolleyes: (fact is, I'm virtually a tee totaller!). - but hopefully that suggestion wasn't aimed at me and I've got it wrong!

Grumph

7th January 2018, 19:07

First of all, good luck to our old mate from Aus hope we see him on here soon again with his contributions!

I was a little disappointed though, when a while back someone on the forum (ESE thread - and I won't say who) suggested that anyone who wasn't involved with Bucket Racing or building and racing a Bucket shouldn't be here! and suggested that I might be an alcoholic who sat in front of the computer drinking all night. :rolleyes: (fact is, I'm virtually a tee totaller!). - but hopefully that suggestion wasn't aimed at me and I've got it wrong!

Relax a little, Will. While I have a bucket project under way (slowly...) I've only been involved on the fringes of it here in the last few years. Prior to that I was public enemy #1 to a lot of them as I ran race meetings that they ran at as guests - and I was very hard on oil leaks and poor preparation...

But since they've got to know me a bit better, you'd be surprised at the calls for advice...I seem to be an on call RAM device - sometimes very random access to memory too, LOL.

pete376403

7th January 2018, 20:46

I let you get away with it for the simple reason that you were right. Most German bombers had Mercedes or BMW engines, but Junkers powerplants visited London too.

BMW and Mercedes are probably the most sought after mode of transport in London these days <_<

guyhockley

7th January 2018, 20:49

Not F1 but
"Probably the fastest car of the pre-Grand Prix period was the opposed piston Gobron Brille which in 1904 was the first I.C. engined car officially to exceed 100mph " Quote from The Grand Prix Car 1906 - 1939 by Laurence Pomeroy.

Seems to have been a dead end with conventional engine types taking over.

Another F1 proposal for an opposed piston two stroke. Apologies if everyone has already read this - it is from an article that was attached to a forum post I linked to when we were discussing Lynton Imps.

Random thought: The K series Rover engines would lend themselves to this sort of experimenting...

tjbw

7th January 2018, 23:25

Relax a little, Will. While I have a bucket project under way (slowly...) I've only been involved on the fringes of it here in the last few years. Prior to that I was public enemy #1 to a lot of them as I ran race meetings that they ran at as guests - and I was very hard on oil leaks and poor preparation...

But since they've got to know me a bit better, you'd be surprised at the calls for advice...I seem to be an on call RAM device - sometimes very random access to memory too, LOL.

Yes, relax Will, you shouldn't even get a wee bit pee'd off by those comments ;)

Frits Overmars

8th January 2018, 03:44

Does legal parties mean individuals or if the Ryger company stops trading would that remove the shackles?I don't know anything about legal matters; I'd have to check with my jurist daughter, but as I understand it, individuals as well as companies can be legal parties.
As for the Ryger company stopping trading, I never noticed they even started.

WilDun

8th January 2018, 08:03

I don't know anything about legal matters; I'd have to check with my jurist daughter, but as I understand it, individuals as well as companies can be legal parties.
As for the Ryger company stopping trading, I never noticed they even started.

I never really followed the Ryger stuff much, other than to look in now and again, but it always seemed to me that it was the wrong way to go, ie to take a completely new concept, hoping to make an attempt at racing it and expecting it to blow away everything else - did that ever happen before? - John Britten I guess was close anyway except that he used established ideas and assembled them all in an exaggerated "over the top " artwork package!

I would have been inclined to road test it a lot (incognito) on quiet roads first, (do they have quiet roads in Holland?) to remove the initial bugs, as is always the case with any new concept!
The "V-Due" is also an example of a good idea rushed into production without proper testing.!

Still, I hate to see an enthusiast's hopes and aspirations blown into the weeds - it's easy for us armchair critics to sit here and say all this in retrospect!

Frits Overmars

8th January 2018, 08:14

I would have been inclined to road test it a lot (incognito) on quiet roads first, (do they have quiet roads in Holland?)In my youth we could get away with a lot, but nowadays... Current population density in New Zealand is 18 per km². In Holland it's 414. Not many quiet roads left...

Grumph

8th January 2018, 08:18

Still, I hate to see an enthusiast's hopes and aspirations blown into the weeds - it's easy for us armchair critics to sit here and say all this in retrospect!

NZ and Oz are probably the two most cynical countries in the world when it comes to new engine types. We have a history of novel ideas put forward simply as income generators so are I think, understandably shy of "new tech"....And yes, I exempt the Sarich from this, Ken.

WilDun

8th January 2018, 12:13

In my youth we could get away with a lot, but nowadays... Current population density in New Zealand is 18 per km². In Holland it's 414. Not many quiet roads left...

Well, not 18 around Auckland - and the other cities! - however don't tell anyone please, we like it how it is out in the country! .....and there I'll be able to test my mobility scooter with an experimental two stroke in it! but must find an alternative to the piping nightmares (maybe a three cylinder with co-joined pipes) :laugh:

tjbw

8th January 2018, 14:06

It was more than a design exercise. Prototypes ran and the design was hawked around the UK motor trade as was Bradshaw's usual policy.
The prototypes appear to have been possibly twins - he was aiming at the small car market.
It's a bit simpler than the Ryger in some ways - the bottom end is petroil lubed via the "timed" ventilation holes and full roller bearing.
He apparently ran into uneven running at points in the rpm band - poor scavenging due to a form of crossflow scavenging but without a deflector to aim the flow upwards.
It was certainly viable with some more development, nothing in it mechanically is beyond the manufacturing or matallurgy of the period.

....

I'm still thinking about Bradshaw's pulsation engine!

I think the primary compression is very effective, even with the the small transfers. But it might be benefit from a Flettner type variable disc valve, and trombone inlet. But even then I don't think it could outperform an engine with a tuned exhaust sucking through big transfers and inlet.

The piston looks quite fragile with lots of friction surfaces.

BTW if transfers are at one end of the cylinder and exhaust is at the other end I'd call it uniflow scavenging.

Here's an alternative uniflow piston configuration:

ken seeber

8th January 2018, 14:25

Well Willy, having been thru the growth (since 1975) and the start of the decline (2001) of the Orbital Engine Company once can make some interesting observations. The key one being that the investors & stockbrokers, are not so much interested in the realty (the truth), but in talking things up for their potential personal gain. Just before I started they had installed one very early 7 chamber, 3.5 litre Orbital engine in a Ford Cortina (the first of the body shapes that could accept the 6 cyl Falcon engine). A video was made of it driving down the road. Cool, wonderful, smooth, the savior of the motor industry, little Aussi inventor, blah, blah…

What the vid (well, film really) didn’t show was an engine and its spark plugs nearly dragging on the ground and the smokescreen (plus) belching out behind the car, clever photography really. Enough for the suits though and we, green faced juniors, thought it was all wonderful. And it was really, the time there was fantastic, really good people and a great learning opportunity for all. And a great place to make foreigners (motorbikes and engines) after work. Lots of interest in bikes and 2 strokes, heaven really. The Orbital Alma Mater.

However, it did have commercial success in the end with applications of the 2 fluid DI system in outboards, and small scooters. The most notable being the Mercury Optimax outboards, which continues to this day and one version, driven by the US military to be able to run on diesel fuel, still with spark ignition. In addition they also make here in Perth, a small 50 cc engine kit that is used for military drones. This runs on Jet A fuel. Apparently it is a requirement for some military to use the same fuel for all vehicles etc, primarily for logistical reasons.

Today became tomorrow….

tjbw

8th January 2018, 14:42

Another F1 proposal for an opposed piston two stroke. Apologies if everyone has already read this - it is from an article that was attached to a forum post I linked to when we were discussing Lynton Imps.

Random thought: The K series Rover engines would lend themselves to this sort of experimenting...

Another interesting read, thanks guy.

It's sad that regulation changes thwarted David's attempts to find success in F1, and now he's no longer with us.

ken seeber

8th January 2018, 16:17

Grumph

8th January 2018, 19:40

I'm still thinking about Bradshaw's pulsation engine!

I think the primary compression is very effective, even with the the small transfers. But it might be benefit from a Flettner type variable disc valve, and trombone inlet. But even then I don't think it could outperform an engine with a tuned exhaust sucking through big transfers and inlet.

The piston looks quite fragile with lots of friction surfaces.

BTW if transfers are at one end of the cylinder and exhaust is at the other end I'd call it uniflow scavenging.

You can see how someone could look at it and think - what would that go like with modern transfers, a longer inlet period using a reed valve - and a good pipe...
It's not uniflow - I'd call the appearance of that an optical illusion, both the transfers and exhaust are above the piston crown at BDC. The piston was probably steel - Bradshaw has a history of steel pistons and barrels. The upper skirt could do with some cutting away to assist transfer flow but the ring arrangement apparently got in the way when that was tried. Another reason to use modern loop scavenge transfers.

Keep burning the free WiFi Ken...

Frits Overmars

8th January 2018, 23:49

Here's an alternative uniflow piston configuration:Ah yes, the Schliha umbrella scavenging. It's what I'm trying to achieve with my FOS scavenging system, but with more port area and without the funny piston and combustion chamber shape. Here are some more Schliha pictures.
334634 334635 334636 334637

Frits Overmars

8th January 2018, 23:50

334638 334639 334640

WilDun

8th January 2018, 23:54

It would be suicide for a company chugging along fine with the good old 'tried and true' (imperfect as it may be) to try and wow the world with something new!
Well, look no further than HD - or maybe Briggs & Strattan who, every few years just slip on a a new cowling with a sexy paint job on their 80 odd year old design and pass it on to the gullibles as the very latest in technology!

But again, what's wrong with dreaming?

tjbw

9th January 2018, 04:58

The COX outboard engine.

A friend sent thru a pic of it. I think I had seen it before, but didn't twig it was the COX. Not sure on the actual size, but doesn't look to be user friendly to fit into a conventional outboard package.

334614

Ken, At first glance I thought that this can't be the Cox engine, as I had read that Cox is an opposed piston diesel, with 4 cylinders with 8 pistons.

I was thinking perhaps it's similar internally to Ecomoter (central image below). However it appears from your image that the grey cylinders are in fact sleeve valves with closed ends (forming outer pistons?), connected to a scotch yoke!

Does your friend have a Cox animation?

This Cox patent may also be of interest:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20100192923

tjbw

9th January 2018, 05:21

Ah yes, the Schliha umbrella scavenging. It's what I'm trying to achieve with my FOS scavenging system, but with more port area and without the funny piston and combustion chamber. Here are some more Schliha pictures.
334634 334635 334636 334637

Frits, I'm really glad you posted those additional images, as I was wondering how long it would take, before someone would ask why the crankcase in my image was open to atmosphere, via the head!
Some of your images show the cap sealing the head.

tjbw

9th January 2018, 08:23

You can see how someone could look at it and think - what would that go like with modern transfers, a longer inlet period using a reed valve - and a good pipe...
It's not uniflow - I'd call the appearance of that an optical illusion, both the transfers and exhaust are above the piston crown at BDC. The piston was probably steel - Bradshaw has a history of steel pistons and barrels. The upper skirt could do with some cutting away to assist transfer flow but the ring arrangement apparently got in the way when that was tried. Another reason to use modern loop scavenge transfers.

Keep burning the free WiFi Ken...

Yes, I too would love to see the Bradshaw Pulsation Engine updated, whilst still retaining uniflow. I say uniflow because the transfers and inlet are adjacent to piston crown at BDC, whereas the exhaust is adjacent to the cylinder head.

Frits Overmars

9th January 2018, 23:42

Frits, I'm really glad you posted those additional images, as I was wondering how long it would take, before someone would ask why the crankcase in my image was open to atmosphere, via the head! Some of your images show the cap sealing the head.Not to mention the cap sealing the piston, which was omited in the drawing.
334657 334658

guyhockley

10th January 2018, 00:20

Relax a little, Will. While I have a bucket project under way (slowly...) I've only been involved on the fringes of it here in the last few years.

Is that your half a FZR250 device? Just found out that Allen Millyard's latest toy goes in the other direction - he's added an extra pot, each end, and built a roller bearing crank. Doing the cams = a fun job, I guess...

...I seem to be an on call RAM device - sometimes very random access to memory too, LOL.

Perfect setup for lots of Kiwi/sheep jokes! :shutup:

guyhockley

10th January 2018, 04:39

Back to opposed pistons (sort of)...

Grumph

10th January 2018, 06:20

Is that your half a FZR250 device? Just found out that Allen Millyard's latest toy goes in the other direction - he's added an extra pot, each end, and built a roller bearing crank. Doing the cams = a fun job, I guess.

Millyard has been around his Kawas too long, the std plain bearing crank could have been cut, rephased, welded and extended without too much effort.
I note he's using the short rod, early pistons. I can only assume he found a roller bearing rod of that length and wanted to use them.
The top end oiling worries me a little. There's one feed, visible on the front of the head to one side of the camchain tunnel. Oil then travels through the hollow cams to the bearings. I think I'd have put more oil upstairs via a second feed line.
The most impressive thing IMO is the cam cover....OE is a magnesium alloy which fiercely resists welding....

My twin is up to rolling bike stage but held up for want of a working OE ignition. A mate is swapping transistors as he has time, to try and get one of the three I have working... Plus an influx of engines means my time is occupied.

guyhockley

10th January 2018, 07:28

The top end oiling worries me a little. There's one feed, visible on the front of the head to one side of the camchain tunnel. Oil then travels through the hollow cams to the bearings. I think I'd have put more oil upstairs via a second feed line.

I worried about the top end oiling but for a different reason, he's using 2 stroke rods but still with oil feeds through the crank and I just wondered how much was left for upstairs after that...
He has played with Z1s - Roller bottom end, plain cam bearings, so he's maybe got it sussed.

Grumph

10th January 2018, 07:56

I worried about the top end oiling but for a different reason, he's using 2 stroke rods but still with oil feeds through the crank and I just wondered how much was left for upstairs after that...
He has played with Z1s - Roller bottom end, plain cam bearings, so he's maybe got it sussed.

I've played with Z1's too...they have multiple feeds to the cams - two at each end. Drilled passages in the head and solid cams.
The pic of the almost complete engine lacks the oil and water pumps. They sit under the starter motor and are a sandwich with the oil pump as the inner and the water pump tacked on over that. The std oil pump should have the capacity to do it all as roller cranks don't need pressure - just a minimum volume.

Edit - Oil pumps. I was surprised when I pulled down a late GSXR1000 yesterday - the pump's shrunk ! Noticeably smaller than earlier versions. HP has gone up, weight has gone down, looks like the pump drive ratio has changed too. I'd always believed that you ran into cavitation if you ran the oil pump too fast.
Maybe it goes with the now common reduction in oil viscosity.

WilDun

10th January 2018, 20:04

Back to opposed pistons (sort of)...

That one is a poser (to me anyway!).

Pursang

12th January 2018, 11:34

.
So... if I did want to experiment with a temperature neutral exhaust duct, this would make a perfect test platform.
Eliminating the exhaust heat from transferring to the cylinder would remove the need to worry about watercooling, et al.
Passing all the heat energy into the chamber for stronger pulses.
Eliminating heat transfer to the blow-through for a cooler denser charge..... Couldn't wish for more!
Bringing back Air-cooled 2 strokes, cant get KISSier than that.

334705

But it's not likely to happen this year (my 60th). I'm up to my armpits in the Most 4 Strokey of 4 strokes, a pre unit BSA.

334706 A tribute to my friend Don Newell.:niceone:

But to demonstrate what I had planned, here's how I was going to achieve 150mph with a 20HP 175cc Victa.:bleh:

334707

Cheers, Daryl.

Frits Overmars

13th January 2018, 01:43

Eliminating the exhaust heat from transferring to the cylinder would remove the need to worry about watercooling, et al.
Passing all the heat energy into the chamber for stronger pulses. Eliminating heat transfer to the blow-through for a cooler denser charge.
334705Once the inner tube of your thermos flask construction is red hot, it will no longer steal any heat from the exhaust gases, so all energy will be available to the pipe;
Mission accomplished. But how are you going to prevent that red hot tube from heating the washed-through charge? I'm afraid painting it green won't be sufficient.

Bringing back air-cooled 2 strokes, cant get KISSier than that.There may be a little misunderstanding here. KISS is not supposed to be an abbreviation of Keep It Seizing Sucker.

I'm up to my armpits in the Most 4 Strokey of 4 strokes, a pre unit BSA.Shame on you Daryl, though you'd get along fine with my youngest brother who's fiddling with a WW2-BSA and a couple of post-war (but what's the difference) Harleys.

PS: where are you going to plan your world speed record? Recent experience has shown that the surface of the available salt flats deteriorates from year to year.
Front tires will crush the hard surface and dig deep into the brine. An 11" front wheel, even when it's 6" wide, won't help...

Pursang

13th January 2018, 11:40

Once the inner tube of your thermos flask construction is red hot, it will no longer steal any heat from the exhaust gases, so all energy will be available to the pipe;
Mission accomplished. But how are you going to prevent that red hot tube from heating the washed-through charge? I'm afraid painting it green won't be sufficient.

Inner tube has little thermal mass and a reduced conductivity & radiation (shiny is a poor emitter). The outer layer of wash-through charge will collect some heat (and cool the duct surface), bulk will pick up much less than normal, because there is less to receive and it's harder to get.
With strongest possible exhaust action, transfer periods might also be reduced, leaving less Time for thermal transfer and/or exhaust duct diameter might be increased, exposing less of the charge Volume to the hot surface. (Perhaps Bultaco knew something, way back when?)

Optimisation of the inner tube dimensions and thermal conductivity with the exhaust/transfer cycle will create a band of thermal harmony in the duct.
Constant temp conditions will then have benefits for optimising compression ratios and spark advance.

It just gets better and better.:woohoo:

There may be a little misunderstanding here. KISS is not supposed to be an abbreviation of Keep It Seizing Sucker. .....:lol: By not holding heat around the exhaust side of the cylinder, dimensional stability will be dramatically improved. :bleh:

Shame on you Daryl, though you'd get along fine with my youngest brother who's fiddling with a WW2-BSA and a couple of post-war (but what's the difference) Harleys. Useful experiences, almost impossible to get more peak power than BSA did, back in the 50's, but it's amazing the effect that intake and exhaust configurations can have on the torque curve.

PS: where are you going to plan your world speed record? Recent experience has shown that the surface of the available salt flats deteriorates from year to year.

Australia has the Best salt lakes available, and close to sea level. Yes, rain does interfere some years, but I'm not planning to retire soon, at least 'til I'm 80, so there is time to make it happen.

Front tires will crush the hard surface and dig deep into the brine. An 11" front wheel, even when it's 6" wide, won't help...

Long held and established ideas are always subject to update & revision. This is Nebulous Theorem IV, by Jack Costella. It's a car, not a bike. 149.426mph 125cc S-G:clap:

334735 Front wheel is visible through the windscreen. :cool:

PS. If your F450 Push Truck doesn't sink into the Brine, your LSR racer is probably OK too!

Cheers, Daryl

Pursang

13th January 2018, 12:40

It's a Very Foolish man that doesn't take Frits' feedback seriously.

So here is MK 1.1

334736

a) Vacuum duct should only be as long as the washed through charge can have a (cooling/stabilising) effect on it.
Leave the rest to the air.

b) Blue is a much Cooler colour than green.

Cheers, Daryl.

Frits Overmars

14th January 2018, 00:41

Long held and established ideas are always subject to update & revision. This is Nebulous Theorem IV, by Jack Costella. It's a car, not a bike. 149.426mph 125cc S-G
334735 Front wheel is visible through the windscreen. :cool:Maybe you're on to something and wide wheels will be the way to go on the salt, Daryl. Those who follow you will be grateful for the smooth surface you'll leave behind.
334756 334755 334753

As for the thermal evens in exhaust ducts:
334754
(I've chosen a blue background just in case :p).

Grumph

14th January 2018, 06:32

Long held and established ideas are always subject to update & revision. This is Nebulous Theorem IV, by Jack Costella. It's a car, not a bike. 149.426mph 125cc S-G:clap:

334735 Front wheel is visible through the windscreen. :cool:

PS. If your F450 Push Truck doesn't sink into the Brine, your LSR racer is probably OK too!

Cheers, Daryl

I was fascinated by the Swedetech logo. In Burt Munro country - Southland NZ - this is a Swede. Any tech is usually reserved for trying to make them edible. Both for humans and as stock feed. Not very successfully either IMO.

Pursang

14th January 2018, 09:22

I was fascinated by the Swedetech logo. In Burt Munro country - Southland NZ - this is a Swede. Any tech is usually reserved for trying to make them edible. Both for humans and as stock feed. Not very successfully either IMO.

This looks tasty!.

334760

cheers Daryl.

Pursang

14th January 2018, 09:47

334754
(I've chosen a blue background just in case :p).

Those who follow you will be grateful for the smooth surface.

Condemned to continue gathering experience. I am also prepared to concede that the primary purpose of my existence is to be a 'Warning to Others'. - :nono:

Cheers Daryl.

guyhockley

14th January 2018, 10:29

More Bradshaw stuff (kind of)

Michael Moore

15th January 2018, 06:36

Greg, Swedetech is a California tuning shop that specializes in 2T kart engines

http://www.swedetechracing.com/

Grumph

15th January 2018, 06:56

Greg, Swedetech is a California tuning shop that specializes in 2T kart engines

Thanks Michael - I'd twigged that but couldn't help imagining Burt's reaction if he'd seen that logo.

Mental Trousers

16th January 2018, 19:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfpvwasJDYg&list=PLzYor9155-1EB6vW6DmLDk4qGiyiHflQh

Building (as in machining) a 2 stroke engine as a teaching tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8mCVoPWUaM&list=PLzYor9155-1F6xpZ5Pt35WxljKs4OCmdH

2 stroke theory

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChYdD3BgfawTdKlnUJBeOMA/playlists

Too many to list so have a look through them

WilDun

18th January 2018, 07:47

Mental Trousers

18th January 2018, 08:04

Too many to list so have a look through them

Some good interesting stuff in there, nothing the hobby machinist couldn't do, some interesting opinions etc as well, - all depends on what turns you on or keeps you entertained I guess! I'll bookmark it and check it all out. - thanks.

No worries.

One thing I like about his channel is he covers everything - theory, machining, fluids, electronics, materials, tools, etc.

WilDun

24th January 2018, 06:19

No worries.

One thing I like about his channel is he covers everything - theory, machining, fluids, electronics, materials, tools, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFRPxlscY&list=PLzYor9155-1F6xpZ5Pt35WxljKs4OCmdH&index=29

I like that guy's style in the videos and most of the stuff he is talking about is (to me) correct, except that he can get it into words much better than I can!

The application it is used for is an important factor and in the case of light aircraft the modern two stroke is a winner, requiring more or less constant speed (RPM), a high power to weight ratio (very important in aircraft), but still requiring a relatively mild state of tune and of course simplicity in the maintenance department. Fuel consumption and pollution can probably be improved too with EFI.)
I think that these are the main things Neil is trying to achieve, but maybe I should leave that for him to discuss!

ken seeber

24th January 2018, 21:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFRPxlscY&list=PLzYor9155-1F6xpZ5Pt35WxljKs4OCmdH&index=29

I like that guy's style in the videos and most of the stuff he is talking about is (to me) correct, except that he can get it into words much better than I can!

Old mate (“megafuckmouth”) is a bit too doom and gloom for me, so I think I will just stick my head in the sand on that one. I do recognise however he has some points, but he is quite opinionated and ignorant/naive in some areas, eg oil burning.

However Will, I think you hit the nail on the head, it all comes down to the application and, for the future, any such emission and fuel consumption legislations for each application. At this stage Neil’s autogyros are free as are Jeff Henise’s Bonneville LSR record and 125 motocross. It’s a tightening world.

Here’s what is happening in Oz:

http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/air-quality/non-road-spark-ignition-engines-and-equipment

Looks like karting might get thru, but will require each importer to plead their case, however, it appears that any leftover stock of 2 stroke outboards will be available at bargain prices after 1 July this year.

Pursang

24th January 2018, 23:31

Seeing as how we are no longer a "producer" of just about anything mechanical :weep:, seems like a lot of bureaucratic employment maintenance to have our own 'standards' for anything.

Would make more (economic) sense to just require 'compliance' with appropriate international standards from EU or USA or JAP, wherever the actual manufacture is done.
OK.. It's probably China or India.... May (a) God help us all.

Cheers, Daryl

Pursang

24th January 2018, 23:59

Frits Overmars

25th January 2018, 04:09

Mental Trousers

25th January 2018, 10:31

Old mate (“megafuckmouth”) is a bit too doom and gloom for me, so I think I will just stick my head in the sand on that one. I do recognise however he has some points, but he is quite opinionated and ignorant/naive in some areas, eg oil burning

Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFRPxlscY&list=PLzYor9155-1F6xpZ5Pt35WxljKs4OCmdH&index=29
I like that guy's style in the videos and most of the stuff he is talking about is (to me) correct, except that he can get it into words much better than I can!
He certainly likes the sound of his own voice, and has a well developed sense of self esteem and confidence in his ultimate knowledge of all things mechanical. :tugger:.You don't need to agree with everything he says. I know I don't, but I like his style just the same. And I've picked up a lot of present-day English expressions :D.

The guy has a style that certainly won't go down well with everyone. He's very sweary, which doesn't bother me at all. But he seems to have the ability explain stuff. Evidenced by my wife sitting through a bunch of his vids I was watching, learning from them and then wanting to watch more. I've been trying to explain to her the fundamental bits of engines for years and failed, but after watching a few of his vids she's now got an idea about these things.

WilDun

25th January 2018, 10:35

You don't need to agree with everything he says. I know I don't, but I like his style just the same. And I've picked up a lot of present-day English expressions :D.

Yes, but don't get me wrong, I didn't say that agree with him lock stock and barrel, but like that Norwegian guy (Alex)? - he has the balls to get up and say what he believes ("warts and all" - another English expression Frits) in a "vernacular" style (another new English word for you Frits) which most bike boys will understand and he probably doesn't give a stuff whether everyone agrees with him or not!
Daryl, I hope that you don't get offended when I say that it closely resembles Aussie Style, ie up front and easily understood, no pissing around, say it as it is (just like you did :msn-wink:) - it's a style I like, which says, "if you think it's wrong, then stand up and tell me why you think it's wrong" - this instead of some, who will mutter on behind everyone's back. :psst: ( not meaning you - you understnd) then we all know exactly where we are!

WilDun

25th January 2018, 10:52

Old mate (“megafuckmouth”) is a bit too doom and gloom for me, so I think I will just stick my head in the sand on that one. I do recognise however he has some points, but he is quite opinionated and ignorant/naive in some areas, eg oil burning.

Ken,sorry - missed your post,
I'm probably considered opinionated too, what's the harm in having an opinion? someone may agree but the debate is out in the open and you take the risk of being shot down in flames - but nothing worse than having a closed debate, excluding the guy who uttered the "offending" statement!
It appears to me that in Oz if you are opinionated and are wrong, (generally) you will be told so in no mild mannered way and you know exactly where you stand ....... which to me is the way it should be :yes:?
The thing about this is that stuff can be sorted and put to rest quickly,

The guy has a style that certainly won't go down well with everyone. He's very sweary, which doesn't bother me at all. But he seems to have the ability explain stuff. Evidenced by my wife sitting through a bunch of his vids I was watching, learning from them and then wanting to watch more. I've been trying to explain to her the fundamental bits of engines for years and failed, but after watching a few of his vids she's now got an idea about these things.

Yes, everyone has good points even if they tend to be a PITA!

He certainly likes the sound of his own voice, and has a well developed sense of self esteem and confidence in his ultimate knowledge of all things mechanical. :tugger:

cheers, Daryl.

If someone doesn't like the sound of his own voice and has no self esteem, then he has dramatically lowered his chances of ever achieving anything! - this guy has at least achieved fame, ( notoriety maybe?) on You Tube!

ken seeber

30th January 2018, 16:33

husaberg

30th January 2018, 23:23

HCCI on its way ?? 4 stroke though..

https://financialtribune.com/articles/economy-auto/81006/mazda-pitches-skyactiv-3-engine-tech-to-rival-evs

http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/
Its doesn't seem a huge leap from the 1975 Honda civic?

Honda CVCC engines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine) have normal inlet and exhaust valves, plus a small auxiliary inlet valve which provides a relatively rich air–fuel mixture to a volume near the spark plug (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug). The remaining air–fuel charge, drawn into the cylinder through the main inlet valve, is leaner than normal. The volume near the spark plug is contained by a small perforated metal plate. Upon ignition flame fronts emerge from the perforations and ignite the remainder of the air–fuel charge. The remaining engine cycle is as per a standard four-stroke engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_engine).
This combination of a rich mixture near the spark plug, and a lean mixture in the cylinder allowed stable running, yet complete combustion of fuel, thus reducing CO (carbon monoxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide)) and hydrocarbon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon) emissions. This method allowed the engine to burn less fuel more efficiently without the use of an exhaust gas recirculation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation) valve or a catalytic converter, although those methods were installed later to further improve emission reduction.

WilDun

31st January 2018, 07:43

HCCI on its way ?? 4 stroke though..

https://financialtribune.com/articles/economy-auto/81006/mazda-pitches-skyactiv-3-engine-tech-to-rival-evs

http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/skyactiv/

Achetes are giving two stroke HCCI a shot too! - Junkers way back in the thirties had this design successfuliy working (in diesels ) for aircraft and torpedo boats.
Still, I think Mazda are ahead at the moment.

http://achatespower.com/media-center/engine-design-videos/achates-power-opposed-piston-engine
http://achatespower.com/opgci-an-evolution-that-revolutionizes-the-internal-combustion-engine/

tjbw

2nd February 2018, 14:26

Infiniti variable compression engine:

https://youtu.be/A6H66xfEZC4

Looks expensive, though I like the near vertical conrod on power stroke.

WilDun

3rd February 2018, 18:03

I must say that I would prefer to see a two stroke with opposed pistons working well - the fact that the opposed piston two stroke (which I believe is also inherently suitable for HCCI) has been operated successfully as a diesel in the past, in fact was a well proven concept - it might just be a winner in HCCI form too!
Some people might say that two crankshafts is one too many, (Commer, Sultzer etc. got around that anyway) but then just take a look at the complicated valve gear on a "conventional" engine which uses poppet valves and complicated mechanisms to operate them :rolleyes:
It probably takes up more space anyway!

FLETTNER has had experience with an experimental opposed piston two stroke.

Biggest problem is probably the stigma associated with two strokes nowadays! - but here's hoping. :scratch:

WilDun

3rd February 2018, 23:35

Infiniti variable compression engine:

https://youtu.be/A6H66xfEZC4

Looks expensive, though I like the near vertical conrod on power stroke.

I think that this concept and the MCE5 are on a par and probably fine on an otherwise conventional four stroke engine, but of course I am am forever looking at the possibility of a two stroke and HCCI - it obviously would produce assymetric port timing, but (in this case), would it be compatible with the requirements for suitable port timing? - would it be wrong way round? - however, it's too late at night and I'm too dozey to work it all out! :confused: :sleep:

WilDun

5th February 2018, 23:33

Frits Overmars

5th February 2018, 23:43

Will do. Good night Will.

ken seeber

7th February 2018, 00:41

Ken & Frits,
Just a quick diversion here before I shut down for the night:-
Here's our bloody old Yorkshire mate again - love him or hate him, he calls a spade a "shovel" and he's f****g entertaining! See this one all the way through - to me it's his best one yet!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW9wtsK_XTw

Well Willy, this time I have to agree with MFM on a couple of things:
1. That is if a new technology (say the Duke) was any good, some mfgr would have picked it up, eg HHO.
2. The "big oil" power. I think we've all heard of how the "oil companies" bought out some new idea/technology, thereby preventing it coming to market so they can keep selling oil. Remember the tablets that could be added to water and, voila, a petrol substitute.

Conclusion: Good technology will naturally come to the fore and be accepted, however it has to be tempered with the fact that if there is a new technology around the corner, maybe we'll just focus on that, rather than spending $s on a potentially short term, but quickly superceded, improvement.

WilDun

7th February 2018, 07:23

........ Remember the tablets that could be added to water and, voila, a petrol substitute.

Snake oil tablets?

...........Conclusion: Good technology will naturally come to the fore and be accepted, however it has to be tempered with the fact that if there is a new technology around the corner, maybe we'll just focus on that, rather than spending $s on a potentially short term, but quickly superceded, improvement.

I agree 100% with that Ken! - Like all those powerful Hi tech piston engines developed around the end of WW2, scuppered by the jets!
http://www.npht.org/nomad/4579733511
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Nomad
335075
335079
- and both two strokes!

Then ...... http://www.spannerhead.com/2012/08/20/interesting-engines-the-pratt-whitney-r-4360/
335077

BTW, how's the recovery going?

WilDun

9th February 2018, 07:53

Getting back into the smaller stuff, this has probably been discussed before somewhere, but does anybody know if this concept has found its way into any vehicles, or has it just become yet another "no takers" scenario?

http://www.ilmor.co.uk/capabilities/5-stroke-engine?/concept_5-stroke_1.php

Breakthroughs don't seem to be snapped up like they used to be and a lot of very promising stuff is just disappearing!
Ken is probably right when he says that good technology will be accepted, but maybe there is a glut of good ideas now (in the IC engine world) and with electricity getting a grip, the demand for new IC ideas has tapered off and this brilliant stuff unfortunately could be lost - I guess some of it may still be used in IC/Electric hybrids.
I know this one is probably aimed at the Hybrid market as well, but Hybrid engines to me aren't quite as exciting, however if that's progress, then it's just got to be!

WilDun

12th February 2018, 23:04

Frits Overmars

12th February 2018, 23:30

Frits, Quite a while ago I think I tried to describe this Russian design, (Veselovsky) to you, but couldn't find it. Seems it was meant as an alternative to the Wankel - may suffer some of the same problems as the Wankel. It disappeared completely from the net for a while,but it now seems to be back in circulation!
335168
A lot of other interesting Russian designs here:-
http://russianpatents.com/patent/207/2078221.htmlThat Veselovsky engine seems to have a lot in common with the LiquidPiston engine, like the stationary sealings in the housing and the three combustion chambers that have a much better volume-to-surface-ratio and maintain an almost constant volume during the combustion phase, plus-points that the Wankel lacks.
The LiquidPiston's disadvantage however is the inlet and exhaust ducting through the rotor, inviting thermal issues.
https://www.google.nl/search?q=liquidpiston&rlz=1C1DVCC_enNL345&oq=liquidpiston&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61.9823j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
335171 335170 335169

https://vimeo.com/64911927 , https://vimeo.com/99002635 , https://vimeo.com/163543761

WilDun

13th February 2018, 12:45

Yes, plenty of similarities there - I think Veselovsky gave them the idea!
Looks to me that the biggest problem for most rotary engines from the old WW1 rotary aircraft engines to the Wankel and everything between, is how to guide the exhaust gases out to the atmosphere.
Easy to dump it all out in the air (ie in the case of aircraft) I guess! ...... but I have heard that Felix Wankel himself was pissed off when NSU changed his design from a rotating outer housing to having the inner part rotating (now the rotor as we know it).
Of course it would have been slightly difficult to gather up the gases from a rotating housing and put them into a sensible quiet exhaust system!

Frits Overmars

14th February 2018, 04:41

...I have heard that Felix Wankel himself was pissed off when NSU changed his design from a rotating outer housing to having the inner part rotating (now the rotor as we know it). Of course it would have been slightly difficult to gather up the gases from a rotating housing and put them into a sensible quiet exhaust system!Yes, old Felix was pissed because in its original form both the rotor and the housing rotated around fixed points, so there was no need for any balancing weights.
It was a nice idea but fitting the auxiliaries was a nightmare, so NSU opted for the stationary housing, necessitating a rotor that was both orbiting and rotating.
Even to this day the German language distinguishes between Drehkolbenmotor (rotating piston engine) and Kreiskolbenmotor (orbiting piston engine).

WilDun

16th February 2018, 08:41

Yes, old Felix was pissed because in its original form both the rotor and the housing rotated around fixed points, so there was no need for any balancing weights.
It was a nice idea but fitting the auxiliaries was a nightmare, so NSU opted for the stationary housing, necessitating a rotor that was both orbiting and rotating.
Even to this day the German language distinguishes between Drehkolbenmotor (rotating piston engine) and Kreiskolbenmotor (orbiting piston engine).
How about Drehkreiskolbenmotor?:facepalm:
Its a pity that people like Wankel and Froede hadn't collaborated more earlier on and actually worked out the design together, seems like it was designed and built from two entirely different points of view, one from an academic engineer's viewpoint and the other from a sensible manufacturers viewpoint.
The only instance I can think of, ie a happy arrangement between two people with different backgrounds was Rolls and Royce, Rolls being a "monied" aristocrat and buisness man, and Royce a small time garage owner (who built his own cars).

WilDun

7th March 2018, 09:30

I guess this thread is running out, but it did manage to bring up some forgotten but interesting and excellent designs from the past, they will only be of passing interest to most people (as you would expect) and there is only a certain number of them to check out!
Once they have been brought to the younger peoples attention, only those with a passionate interest in engines will bother to have a closer look, although some may be able to find something useful in them, maybe for an experimental project or even a replica.
Point is, these things need to be revisited now and then (lest we forget) so that when someone comes up with a great new "breakthrough" eg. as Suzuki did in USA in the seventies "the worlds first 500cc Dual Stroke" - I admit that I could be wrong about there being a 500cc Scott though! - but it would seem that there is nothing new under the sun"
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=335606&d=1520371769

Even then, I could have told them that it had been done over 60(rcorrected!) years before, by Scott - and watercooled to boot!) but I think that I mentioned all this before somewhere! -

Let's hope some more interesting stuff, old or new will turn up!

EssexNick

7th March 2018, 20:58

I don't think this thread is done and dusted just yet. Now that CAD and the internet have become so widespread, there are plenty of people coming up with "new" ideas. Some of them are innovative and many are just variations of old ideas. This is really the place to discuss them without needing to get overly technical or involved in a row.
As for Scott, I also thought they had built a 500cc machine early in their history. It may not have been offered to the public, or maybe an engine was modified by someone else for racing. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, never the less, a memory of something read years ago persists.

Michael Moore

8th March 2018, 04:27

I ran across this DIY (engine and chassis) 4T single racer from the late 1980s 3 or 4 years ago, possibly on FB, and I hope someone knows more about it and/or the builder. I put the photos I found here:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/specials/GreytownRacingSingle/

335616

cheers,
Michael

Grumph

8th March 2018, 06:58

I don't remember seeing it at the North island meetings I got to - but someone here should know it or the people involved as it's definitely Kiwi origin.

Probably built for our F3 of the period which allowed unlimited singles and methanol.
Skimpy finning and fixed ignition by chainsaw mag certainly suggest a meth burner.
Gearbox is yamaha 5 speed - DS7/R5 ? Clutch is very familiar - I have an RD/R5 one on my Villiers....

WilDun

8th March 2018, 08:18

Michael Moore

8th March 2018, 10:29

a person on my chassis list found this website which appears to belong to the builder

http://www.cdd.co.nz/cdd_grt.htm

WilDun

8th March 2018, 11:04

Wonder what became of that company? - it would be a pity if they had disappeared without trace! - Again, Husa will probably be the one who knows the answer to that one, I believe he lives somewhere around the Grey River on the west Coast of the South Island.

335620

SORRY, - Found that Greytown is actually in the North Island north of Wellington!! :facepalm: - well, we all make mistakes - Husa will still know though!

Grumph

8th March 2018, 11:50

Crasherfromwayback

8th March 2018, 11:59

There are a few guys on here from that area who were Manfield regulars in that era and should know more.
I'll PM a couple and see.

I'm no good to ya sorry mate. I was late to the road race scene, and didn't stay long.

Michael Moore

8th March 2018, 13:31

A guy on the chassis list says "I remember talking to the builder/rider of that bike at a BEARS meeting at Ruapuna (In the South Island) some time in the 80s. He was from Greytown, a small town in the lower North Island. As I recall he made the patterns himself and had them cast at the local foundry."

That's a pretty impressive project, especially since he completed it and raced it. The website says it was run on both methanol and petrol and he made his own EFI for it.

There is a Greytown Racing Team FB page with those photos on it

https://www.facebook.com/greytownracingteam/

pete376403

8th March 2018, 14:50

That looks like Doug Fairbrother sitting on the GRT bike - he used to race at Te marua speedway back when I was riding there.

Someone in Greytown has some bike smarts - There was a backwards Harley (engine backwards in frame) to get the drive onto the other side, so a modern gearbox (IIRC it was a 6 speed kawaski 900 cluster) could be used, there was a feature about the bike in Streetbike magazine years ago.

T.W.R

8th March 2018, 15:01

Isn't it the same Peter Thompson that is/was wrapped up with the Cliffhanger event??

jellywrestler

8th March 2018, 16:16

Even then, I could have told them that it had been done over 60(rcorrected!) years before, by Scott - and watercooled to boot!) but I think that I mentioned all this before somewhere! -

and the lengendary flat four watercooled shaft drive gold wing that was a groundbreaker in 1975was new and amazing, holden made a flat four watercooled shaft drive bike in 1897

jellywrestler

8th March 2018, 16:17

jellywrestler

8th March 2018, 16:18

jellywrestler

8th March 2018, 16:20

just seen a bike today hand made that literally when they lifted the sheets of it gave me goosebumps, think the britten is cool, this thing is several steps up from it, just mindboggling and i've seen a lot of bikes in my life. no clues sorry, the team is not far from finishing and want to get it sorted before stuff gets out and dilutes it's impact

T.W.R

8th March 2018, 16:46

and the lengendary flat four watercooled shaft drive gold wing that was a groundbreaker in 1975was new and amazing

But that was dumbed down for the general public because it was considered too exotic & complex and took 12-13yrs to get back to original form & capacity.

pete376403

8th March 2018, 17:28

nadroj

9th March 2018, 14:13

Grumph

10th March 2018, 06:17

Oh no! all my hopes and dreams gone, in one fell swoop! :facepalm:

Simply looks to me like the Greytown guys decided to get into BEARS racing rather than trying to make a single competitive in F3 after alky was banned.

I have some sympathy for that approach.

Crasherfromwayback

10th March 2018, 14:20

Someone in Greytown has some bike smarts - There was a backwards Harley (engine backwards in frame) to get the drive onto the other side, so a modern gearbox (IIRC it was a 6 speed kawaski 900 cluster) could be used, there was a feature about the bike in Streetbike magazine years ago.

It was the late Gary McPhee from Carterton (the mayor at one stage), and it was a GPX750 gearbox. Cool bike, and he was a very talented engineer.

pete376403

10th March 2018, 18:49

It was the late Gary McPhee from Carterton (the mayor at one stage), and it was a GPX750 gearbox. Cool bike, and he was a very talented engineer.

Whatever happened to the bike?

Crasherfromwayback

10th March 2018, 18:52

Whatever happened to the bike?

I'm not sure mate. Could prob do a bit of digging if you'd like.

husaberg

10th March 2018, 19:05

Husa's too young. I didn't get to Manfield club meetings - only the Nationals and the WSB rounds. I'm assuming it didn't appear at those as I would have remembered it as being in the class my Kawasaki's were dominating at that level (modest cough)

There are a few guys on here from that area who were Manfield regulars in that era and should know more.
I'll PM a couple and see.
Damn tooting i am far to young.
When you look through the web site Mike Moore linked in the correct mannner it has some nice pics of the bike though.
Also the foundry patterns
Webpage last updated 13 years ago.

http://www.cdd.co.nz/cdd_grt_more_pics.htm
http://www.cdd.co.nz/cdd_grt.htm
http://www.cdd.co.nz/cdd_electronic_fuel_injection.htm

pete376403

10th March 2018, 19:08

I'm not sure mate. Could prob do a bit of digging if you'd like.
Only interested in that I recall the article from Streetbike and it seemed like a pretty good idea. It was a long while ago and I guess the bike has been either carted off to the tip or resurrected as a "proper" Harley.

husaberg

10th March 2018, 19:13

Only interested in that I recall the article from Streetbike and it seemed like a pretty good idea. It was a long while ago and I guess the bike has been either carted off to the tip or resurrected as a "proper" Harley.

I remember my father telling me he watch some animals at RNZAF Woodburne sawing the gearbox off a Vincent twin crankcase, so someone fit a 5 speed Harley one in the late 80's when they clearly should have beeen refusing to commit such a gross travisty of engineering.

Grumph

10th March 2018, 19:55

I remember my father telling me he watch some animals at RNZAF Woodburne sawing the gearbox off a Vincent twin crankcase, so someone fit a 5 speed Harley one in the late 80's when they clearly should have beeen refusing to commit such a gross travisty of engineering.

Hey, the old man made a bit of cash sorting Vincent clutches and gearboxes for Whiting and Waltho - they didn't want to do it. Ian Whiting had a healthy dislike of Vincents despite being an agent. It was justified too. An 80's hardly gearbox was probably better than the OE Vincent - and possibly better than the horribly expensive Quaife 5 speed conversions that Surtees commissioned...

husaberg

10th March 2018, 20:05

Hey, the old man made a bit of cash sorting Vincent clutches and gearboxes for Whiting and Waltho - they didn't want to do it. Ian Whiting had a healthy dislike of Vincents despite being an agent. It was justified too. An 80's hardly gearbox was probably better than the OE Vincent - and possibly better than the horribly expensive Quaife 5 speed conversions that Surtees commissioned...
Whist it may be better it was still a travisty to saw up a intact Vincent crankcase then.
Snr Whitting was a very nice fella. Where was the origional shop.
I remember reading irving mused if you could see inside a running vinny twin you would have seen sparks comming of the cams.

Anyway here is something oddball

https://youtu.be/Y0XbqHUAI-0
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2009/07/A-Fresh-Spin-on-Engine-Design/1846944.html

Grumph

11th March 2018, 06:34

WilDun

11th March 2018, 07:21

Original shop was Cashel St, just west of Barbadoes intersection. Next door to the pub on the corner - the Provincial ? All gone now post quakes.

I was working further down Cashel St when the first Honda 750/4 arrived. Walked down to look at it in my lunchhour - and Ian fired it up for me.
Very nice guy.

That Honda 750 front brake was probably not the first motorcycle disc brake perhaps, but really the first disc brake to go into mass production - from memory, it was a simple single piston swinging caliper affair.

I used to work with (the late) Lloyd May in Papakura where he was a toolmaker and he decided to make a close copy of that brake and fitted it to his newly acquired 350 Yamaha racer (TR2 ?) which still had the massive front wheel drum brake.
It all seemed to work very well, but then one day at Pukekohe something went wrong and he went straight on at the last right hander going into the main straight and through the hedge at quite high speed, He was terribly battered and bruised for a long time afterward!
I think it was the brake that failed, he was too experienced as a rider for that to have happened any other way.

WilDun

11th March 2018, 08:38

Whist it may be better it was still a travisty to saw up a intact Vincent crankcase then...........Anyway here is something oddball

Here is the Megola (German) motorcycle which the guy in the Video referred to :- https://silodrome.com/megola-motorcycle/335653

Grumph

11th March 2018, 10:44

That Honda 750 front brake was probably not the first motorcycle disc brake perhaps, but really the first disc brake to go into mass production - from memory, it was a simple single piston swinging caliper affair.

I used to work with (the late) Lloyd May in Papakura where he was a toolmaker and he decided to make a close copy of that brake and fitted it to his newly acquired 350 Yamaha racer (TR2 ?) which still had the massive front wheel drum brake.
It all seemed to work very well, but then one day at Pukekohe something went wrong and he went straight on at the last right hander going into the main straight and through the hedge at quite high speed, He was terribly battered and bruised for a long time afterward!
I think it was the brake that failed, he was too experienced for that to have happened any other way.

Well, it's a bloody small world, Will....What Lloyd and his close mate Neville Landrebe copied were the Lyster calipers off Neville's Lyster Matchless - which is in ChCh now. The set off Lloyd's Yamaha are in my workshop rebuilt with modern seals and stainless pistons - to go on the Lyster Honda sitting here.
Before buying them off the then owner - not Lloyd - I talked to Lloyd about them and his version was that he'd had a cable operated mastercylinder under the tank - with a variable leverage ratio - and the cable broke...

Lloyd's name came up just last week - the DHB social worker sorting out what's happening to me post op - about 6 weeks away - knew Lloyd for many years.
Grew up with him actually. Again - small world.....

Megolas - I've got a Classic Bike mag with an article which includes pics of the engine internals. Husa will have it too... I looked hard at what was involved building one. I reckoned Briggs and Stratton SV cylinders, the crank and case didn't look terribly hard.
I was frankly seduced by a pic of the racing Megola and could just see myself showing up at the Pukekohe Classic festival with one....

Michael Moore

12th March 2018, 05:22

That Honda 750 front brake was probably not the first motorcycle disc brake perhaps, . . .

Looks like 1906 from the caption on this photo of a rear disc and then 1923 for the Douglas outfit

Frits Overmars

12th March 2018, 05:36

More early disc brakes:
335662335663335661

Frits Overmars

12th March 2018, 06:08

But do not dismiss the drum bake yet:
335664

WilDun

12th March 2018, 07:51

But do not dismiss the drum bake yet:
335664

Ok, thanks Frits - all you guys have got me cornered - thought I knew it all! :facepalm:...... but look at my signature at the bottom and you will see that what it says is CORRECT!! :laugh:

Yes Grumph but I feel that the one he was experimenting with at first was based on the Honda and then he and his mate may have rethought things and decided on something better - like the Lyster brakes.
Lloyd and I used to have some laughs, especially leaving work when we always had a "dice" - Lloyd on his old norton twin (I think) and me on an old Triumph Tigress 250 Scooter (best handling scooter ever!), all great fun and I was very sad to learn that he had died a few years back.
Did he grow up in Christchurch?

Glad to hear that you're making progress on the medical front, chin up, it'll all all be worth it believe me!

Grumph

12th March 2018, 10:20

The Lyster stuff was pre Honda. I'm told that Colin Lyster was a tad grumpy about not receiving any royalties from Honda as with the exception of the seals, they pretty much copied what he'd done. Nev Landrebe had brought the Lyster Matchless back from the UK and won the NZ 500 title a couple of years before they got into Yamahas. He sold it to Bob Harris down here to finance his trip to race in the states I believe. Dale Wylie was sponsored by Bob and won the bike's second NZ title.
The guy I was speaking to said they grew up on the outer edge of Auckland. I don't know the area at all but he was talking about out at the heads around the harbour entry.

WilDun

13th March 2018, 00:03

But do not dismiss the drum bake yet:

Frits. Honda probably was inspired by that brake when they designed their 50cc twin racer,

Grumph, Will check out the Lyster brake, was it single piston, swing caliper? - I still think though that Lloyd was fiddling around with the Honda brake when he was wotking in Papakura, but we'll never know!
At that time I was trying to build my T20 Suzuki into a "proper" racer and I was being guided by him on what to do. - that was in the days of Ron Grant from America (who came originally from the same place as myself), Geoff Perry from Auckland and Clive Kingston from Tauranga. but I wasn't in their league! - BTW At that time, I was a shit mechanic as well !:rolleyes:

Frits Overmars

13th March 2018, 03:17

Frits. Honda probably was inspired by that brake when they designed their 50cc twin racer.Yeah maybe, Will. I suppose it's so long ago that not everybody still knows what we're talking about, so here are some pics for the youngsters.
335667335668335666

Grumph

13th March 2018, 06:59

I've always looked at that brake and thought that it proves the 50's were simply powered bicycles, LOL.

As an aside, Burt Munro turned up here for a NZ records meeting, I think just after his first trip to the US. The Indian was failed at scrutineering as it only had a brake on the rear wheel. He shot into the nearest town - Kaiapoi - and woke up the bike shop owner who was having a Sunday morning lie-in.
Came back and spent half an hour fitting a push bike brake onto the front rim just like that Honda. From memory he ran about 165mph at that meeting.
It was the last one run on the Tram Road where Burns and Wright had set the worlds records. Traffic increases meant we moved to the parallel South Eyre road after that.

WilDun

13th March 2018, 08:31

Those little Hondas were both complicated and simple at the same time, revving to 22000, and probably unable to run, or at least produce much power under 15000, needing at least 12 speed boxes, with rim brakes, skinny tyres able to top 100MPH ! they must have been a bloody nightmare to ride in IOM!

I say at least 12 speed boxes because I remember reading that going up the mountain the clucth had to be constantly kept slipping ( by the rider) - A large part of their success was down to the rider's ability.
Taveri, Bryans etc were amazing riders really - people have been given knighthoods for less!.

...... However, New Zealand's Hugh Anderson on his two stroke Suzuki was often able to beat them - he eventually had a 14 speed gearbox!
Then the 'powers that be' saw that it was becoming a pissing contest , put a stop to the craziness and limited them and the 125 machines to single cylinder and six speeds.
Guess that's when people like Jan Thiel etc came into their own and the big factories then pulled back.

(or something like that).

Grumph

13th March 2018, 08:45

Frits. Honda probably was inspired by that brake when they designed their 50cc twin racer,

Grumph, Will check out the Lyster brake, was it single piston, swing caliper? - I still think though that Lloyd was fiddling around with the Honda brake when he was wotking in Papakura, but we'll never know!
At that time I was trying to build my T20 Suzuki into a "proper" racer and I was being guided by him on what to do. - that was in the days of Ron Grant from America (who came originally from the same place as myself), Geoff Perry from Auckland and Clive Kingston from Tauranga. but I wasn't in their league! - BTW At that time, I was a shit mechanic as well !:rolleyes:

I'd met both Ron and Geoff and ridden against both, but it was some years later while Ron and I were watching Cathcart crash test the Britten at Ruapuna that he offered me a job at Honda Britain. I told him he was about 15 years too late as I'd had two heart attacks by then, LOL. Nice guy.

Here's a pic of the ex Lloyd May calipers - incl an original piston with O ring seals...I've even got Lloyd's mounting hardware for TR2 forks. At the time they were done there were no readily available handlebar mastercylinders, let alone a choice of sizes. Hence Lloyd's use of a remote master with adjustable leverage ratio.

WilDun

13th March 2018, 09:56

I was frankly seduced by a pic of the racing Megola and could just see myself showing up at the Pukekohe Classic festival with one....

Would like to see that Grumph, you flipping it through the double chicane at high speed and then opening it up coming out on to the back straight with the front wheel pawing the air and the engine screaming (at about 2000 revs). What a spectacle! :laugh:

Hang on, the front wheel wouldn't be pawing the air, it's front wheel drive!

The brakes do look familiar as the pads that Lloyd was playing with were round and (unusually) held in the middle by a bolt - is that correct?.

Grumph

13th March 2018, 13:26

Would like to see that Grumph, you flipping it through the double chicane at high speed and then opening it up coming out on to the back straight with the front wheel pawing the air and the engine screaming (at about 2000 revs). What a spectacle! :laugh:

Hang on, the front wheel wouldn't be pawing the air, it's front wheel drive!

The brakes do look familiar as the pads that Lloyd was playing with were round and (unusually) held in the middle by a bolt - is that correct?.

I'd have liked to have seen it myself, LOL. I suspect that with the 28 inch wheel needed to get the gearing, the rotational inertia would have been awesome...Probably need those long wheelbarrow bars to get it to turn. I was never any good at wheelies though so that would have suited me.

Yes, the fixed pad is retained by a screw. The pad in the piston end seems to be press fit.

Frits Overmars

13th March 2018, 15:30

Those little Hondas were both complicated and simple at the same time, revving to 22000... needing at least 12 speed boxes...
I say at least 12 speed boxes because I remember reading that going up the mountain the clucth had to be constantly kept slipping Will, you shouldn't believe everything you read (except when I wrote it, of course :p).
Here are that 50 cc Honda twin's internals: 8 speeds.
335678 335677

However, New Zealand's Hugh Anderson on his two stroke Suzuki was often able to beat them - he eventually had a 14 speed gearbox! Then the 'powers that be' saw that it was becoming a pissing contest, put a stop to the craziness and limited them and the 125 machines to single cylinder and six speeds.
Guess that's when people like Jan Thiel etc came into their own and the big factories then pulled back. (or something like that).Not quite; Jan Thiel came into his own a bit earlier, when the 14-speed Suzuki twins were still allowed.
In 1968 his 9-speed Jamathi single beat the works Suzuki twin ridden by 50 cc world champion Hans-Georg Anscheid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lodewijkx)
While we're on the subject of gearboxes, here are the 14-speed Suzuki box and the 9-speed Jamathi box, a marvel of simplicity compared to the Suzuki.
335676 335679

Frits Overmars

13th March 2018, 15:50

Would like to see that Grumph, you flipping it through the double chicane at high speed and then opening it up coming out on to the back straight with the front wheel pawing the air and the engine screaming (at about 2000 revs). What a spectacle!
Hang on, the front wheel wouldn't be pawing the air, it's front wheel drive!I once got involved with front wheel drive two-wheelers. With no suspension at all, no wheelbase to speak of and hardly any brakes, they were perilous to say the least.
But seeing our bike laying down black marks accelerating out of corners was quite enjoyable. It wasn't because of the power (only about 10 hp due to the moderate state of tuning demanded by the no-gearbox, no-clutch direct drive) but because the acceleration unloaded the front wheel to such an extent that it started spinning.
Below left the original Solex, right the lunatic version :D.
335681 335680

WilDun

13th March 2018, 16:00

Yes, the fixed pad is retained by a screw. The pad in the piston end seems to be press fit.

Ok that'll be the one I'm trying to describe ........ around 1969 - 70 I guess.

WilDun

13th March 2018, 16:29

Will, you shouldn't believe everything you read (except when I wrote it, of course :p).
....... that 50 cc Honda twin's internals: 8 speeds.

...... the 9-speed Jamathi box, a wonder of simplicity compared to the Suzuki.
335679

Oh well, can't get it exactly right all of the time, but as I said way back, have a stab anyway and if it's somewhere in the ballpark, then someone will be glad to put it right! :msn-wink:
(I did think I was a little closer to tell the truth!) - no wonder they had to keep the clutch slipping!

The Jamathi gearbox is reminiscent of an Italian (ISO) scooter which I dismantled (or maybe even a Norton box, as found in lathes). Is the selector actually a rod with dogs sliding inside one of the shafts? - the input shaft?

T.W.R

13th March 2018, 17:22

I'd have liked to have seen it myself, LOL. I suspect that with the 28 inch wheel needed to get the gearing, the rotational inertia would have been awesome...Probably need those long wheelbarrow bars to get it to turn. I was never any good at wheelies though so that would have suited me.

Even beating up Hororata would be worth it for the sound :msn-wink:

https://youtu.be/c4Cq49IDfOc

These two were in the follow up clips too....Pavel Malanik Reproductions

https://youtu.be/hRs7SUFfZM4

https://youtu.be/PrhJCN2xK4U

husaberg

13th March 2018, 17:54

Even beating up Hororata would be worth it for the sound :msn-wink:

These two were in the follow up clips too....Pavel Malanik Reproductions

youtube_share;hRs7SUFfZM4]https://youtu.be/hRs7SUFfZM4

The big JAP a guy in the UK was going to start doing one of those as a project about 20 years ago
He had done a rather tasty designed Hardley with a huge spine frame that doubled as a fuel and oil tank.
it was about 12 inch spine and looked a lot like a Cyclone board tracker.
wonder if it was the same guy

T.W.R

13th March 2018, 18:10

The big JAP a guy in the UK was going to start doing one of those as a project about 20 years ago
He had done a rather tasty designed Hardley with a huge spine frame that doubled as a fuel and oil tank.
it was about 12 inch spine and looked a lot like a Cyclone board tracker.
wonder if it was the same guy

Could be? I just followed the upcoming clips from another video of the Dennis Franz V8 motorcycle....looks like that Pavel Malanik specialises in doing re-pops.

Thought Dennis Franz was the chubby cop off Hill Street Blues though :laugh:

https://youtu.be/KyP7lCO6WBg

Grumph

13th March 2018, 18:53

The big JAP a guy in the UK was going to start doing one of those as a project about 20 years ago
He had done a rather tasty designed Hardley with a huge spine frame that doubled as a fuel and oil tank.
it was about 12 inch spine and looked a lot like a Cyclone board tracker.
wonder if it was the same guy

I can't see any of those vids on this computer so I'm guessing here. Is the "big JAP" a V twin ?

I know of two being built in NZ. You can buy a kit of castings if you know the right people - but drawings are apparently very,very hard to get.

husaberg

13th March 2018, 18:58

I can't see any of those vids on this computer so I'm guessing here. Is the "big JAP" a V twin ?

I know of two being built in NZ. You can buy a kit of castings if you know the right people - but drawings are apparently very,very hard to get.
Yeah the video is a big one though, 1909 2.7 litre

Grumph

13th March 2018, 19:00

I once got involved with front wheel drive two-wheelers. With no suspension at all, no wheelbase to speak of and hardly any brakes, they were perilous to say the least.
But seeing our bike laying down black marks accelerating out of corners was quite enjoyable. It wasn't because of the power (only about 10 hp due to the moderate state of tuning demanded by the no-gearbox, no-clutch direct drive) but because the acceleration unloaded the front wheel to such an extent that it started spinning.
Below left the original Solex, right the lunatic version :D.
335681 335680

I'd think chainsaw racing is marginally safer....I was once loaned a copy of Motocyclismo (spelling ?) magazine which had a pic of a racing Velo Solex.
No pedals, radically dropped bars. no race pipe. Must have been French....

T.W.R

13th March 2018, 19:03

WilDun

13th March 2018, 22:48

This one here Greg

335693

Some great machines, but I think that the sound of the Megola is fantastic, seen many pictures of it before but had never heard it.

Frits Overmars

13th March 2018, 23:52

The Jamathi gearbox is reminiscent of an Italian (ISO) scooter which I dismantled... Is the selector actually a rod with dogs sliding inside one of the shafts? - the input shaft?Close. Your description is spot-on; only that rod was in the output shaft. Lotus even tried this system in Formula 1.
There must be an English name for this type of gearbox but I don't know it. Do you?
Dutch: trekspiebak
German: Ziehkeilgetriebe
Italian: cambio a crociera scorrevole
Which also demonstrates which is the most economical language :p. Admitted: Italian is the best-sounding of these three.
Below the 9-speed Jamathi box of 1964 and the Bultaco box of 1977 when it had been mandatorily reduced to six speeds.
335704 335703 335702

Frits Overmars

14th March 2018, 05:03

By the way, the hideously expensive seamless-shift gearboxes in the Honda MotoGP works bikes are based on the same principle.
The clutch and the primary gearbox shaft of the Honda gearbox are quite conventional; they could have come out of an old Maico, Zündapp or Simson engine:
335712

All secrets are brought together in the secondary gearbox shaft:
335711

This secondary shaft looks like a cylinder from a security lock, with pawls that are operated from the inside by a rod that slides through the hollow gearbox shaft:
335709

The essence of the Honda box can be seen in the picture below. The pawls in the shaft connect and disconnect the gears to the shaft:
335710
In this drawing a tumbler Rao connects the gear to the shaft when the gear is rotating clockwise. And a tumbler Rbo is connecting the gear to the shaft when the gear is rotating anticlockwise. So in this drawing the gear is locked to the shaft.
The tumblers are governed from within the shaft via an axially moving rod.

Now if we perform an upshift, the shaft will need to rotate faster than the gear. Let us assume that the shaft is rotating clockwise. So we need to retract tumbler Rbo. Now the gear can still drive the shaft, but the shaft cannot drive the gear any more.

Next we engage tumbler Rao of the next gear, so it can also drive the shaft. Then we retract tumbler Rao of our original gear, so it can now freewheel in both directions. And finally we engage tumbler Rbo of the next gear so that it is now locked to the shaft.
That's all, folks: transporting torque from the gears to the shaft without interruption, both while shifting up and down.

Honda has filed patent applications for their seamless gearbox in Japan and the United States (patent applications 2010-203478 and US20110023639, respectively).
You can download the US patent document here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2011/0023639.html

Grumph

14th March 2018, 06:44

Close. Your description is spot-on; only that rod was in the output shaft. Lotus even tried this system in Formula 1.
There must be an English name for this type of gearbox but I don't know it. Do you?

Rod and pawl is probably close enough - but I preferred the name the Lotus box earned - the Queerbox.

I suspect that the materials and machining technology of the time limited the torque and HP cpacity of that layout.
I have no doubt Honda have made it work with large amounts of Money...

Grumph

14th March 2018, 06:47

This one here Greg

Thanks - that's a cycle pacing machine. I've got a pic here somewhere of the biggest parallel twin you've ever seen driving via a flat belt about 100mm wide.
That's also a pacer.

husaberg

14th March 2018, 06:55

Close. Your description is spot-on; only that rod was in the output shaft. Lotus even tried this system in Formula 1.
There must be an English name for this type of gearbox but I don't know it. Do you?
Dutch: trekspiebak
German: Ziehkeilgetriebe
Italian: cambio a crociera scorrevole
Which also demonstrates which is the most economical language :p. Admitted: Italian is the best-sounding of these three.
Below the 9-speed Jamathi box of 1964 and the Bultaco box of 1977 when it had been mandatorily reduced to six speeds.

Either the DKW or the Zundap or Sach 125 had a odd selector set up, i have never seen one in person something with sliding balls as detents?

Michael Moore

14th March 2018, 06:59

Hodaka did a system with balls that engaged the gears instead of a T-shaft. My Maico 125 and I think the Sachs/DKW/Hercules/Zundapp used the T-shaft.

335713

335714

cheers,
Michael

WilDun

14th March 2018, 08:35

Yes, "rod & pawl" sounds right - I really never thought about a name for it, but I did like the principle.

As Grumph says, torque experienced by the relatively flimsy shaft could be an issue, that's why I suggested the input shaft as it rotated at a higher speed and I guess less torque?

As for the Honda seamless box, brilliant, but definitely only for racing (expense and complication) and I'm sure it requires regular attention by relatively experienced mechanics.( I seem to remember Jonathan Rea having problems with his Kawasaki Superbike box but not sure if they use this type of box in Superbikes though - Honda and Yamaha never seem to have any problems in Moto GP though.
Frits there's enough stuff in your post to keep my old feeble mind active for some time! Earlier in my life I would have sat and studied it till I had it completely figured - harder these days! :rolleyes:

T.W.R

14th March 2018, 09:18

Some great machines, but I think that the sound of the Megola is fantastic, seen many pictures of it before but had never heard it.

Yeah that 1st footage I'd seen of one running and would have to class it well inside the top 6 for sound :yes: shame the sound quality catches so much wind noise though :(
There's a couple of videos on youtube about it and one clip with an assortment of Radial engine motorcycles (including a Verdel) where the poster has been ridiculed in the comments section for calling it a radial engine

Thanks - that's a cycle pacing machine. I've got a pic here somewhere of the biggest parallel twin you've ever seen driving via a flat belt about 100mm wide.
That's also a pacer.

Apparently it's a replica of the 2nd generation bike that set a speed record at Brooklands with W.E.Cook riding it.....90mph in 1909

theoldmotor.com
(http://theoldmotor.com/?p=68391)

Though in amongst the follow up clips on youtube there was footage of chain drive race cars heading to Goodwood festival and this beast of a thing.....the 1911 Fiat S76 (the Beast of Turin) speed record holder.....I reckon it's bloody brilliant!!! :2thumbsup the commentary on the clip & footage are magic.......pulling maybe 400rpm in 4th gear passing cars on the motorway throwing flames :laugh:

https://youtu.be/eToHTf-QUBA

WilDun

14th March 2018, 09:42

Yeah that 1st footage I'd seen of one running and would have to class it well inside the top 6 for sound :yes: shame the sound quality catches so much wind noise though :(
There's a couple of videos on youtube about it and one clip with an assortment of Radial engine motorcycles (including a Verdel) where the poster has been ridiculed in the comments section for calling it a radial engine

Apparently it's a replica of the 2nd generation bike that set a speed record at Brooklands with W.E.Cook riding it.....90mph in 1909

theoldmotor.com
(http://theoldmotor.com/?p=68391)

Though in amongst the follow up clips on youtube there was footage of chain drive race cars heading to Goodwood festival and this beast of a thing.....the 1911 Fiat S76 (the Beast of Turin) speed record holder.....I reckon it's bloody brilliant!!! :2thumbsup the commentary on the clip & footage are magic.......pulling maybe 400rpm in 4th gear passing cars on the motorway throwing flames :laugh:

F*******CK!!!! :shit: :eek:

T.W.R

14th March 2018, 09:46

F*******CK!!!! :shit: :eek:

Could roll up beside things at intersections and roast them :2thumbsup

Grumph

14th March 2018, 13:13

Could roll up beside things at intersections and roast them :2thumbsup

I met the Lycoming Special on Blenheim Road in '61 when they were coming back to town after a wet Wigram practise.
Straight pipes and no guards, chuffing along at about 400rpm throwing up fountains of water.
A large beach umbrella pulled down over the cockpit with several pairs of eyes peering out...

We have our own versions of that Fiat, LOL...

WilDun

14th March 2018, 13:27

Hodaka did a system with balls that engaged the gears instead of a T-shaft. My Maico 125 and I think the Sachs/DKW/Hercules/Zundapp used the T-shaft.
cheers,
Michael

Michael, I seem to remember encountering the sliding shaft and ball system - I have a feeling it might have been in a three speed box on a 50cc Italian Itom, but that was when I was in my mid teens, so going back a bit!
It would have produced a slightly stronger shaft but hardening quality etc would need to be spot on if you wanted it to hold well and last!

BTW, this is the latest trend in bicycle gearing (familiar looking?) - a great breakthrough!

335720

WilDun

14th March 2018, 23:16

I met the Lycoming Special on Blenheim Road in '61...........We have our own versions of that Fiat, LOL...

I don't know a lot about the Lycoming special, - any more stuff on it would be welcome.
But ..... what I do know is that the Lycoming engine was slightly more civilised than the FIAT!

I enjoyed the bit about driving into a petrol station spitting flames out the sides! :laugh:

BTW. I think the Megola engine should be called a "Radial Rotary".

T.W.R

15th March 2018, 07:57

I met the Lycoming Special on Blenheim Road in '61 when they were coming back to town after a wet Wigram practise.
Straight pipes and no guards, chuffing along at about 400rpm throwing up fountains of water.
A large beach umbrella pulled down over the cockpit with several pairs of eyes peering out...

We have our own versions of that Fiat, LOL...

I remember the old man talking about the Lycoming and a bit of an urban legend about it being introduced to the Summit Rd on one of it's visits to ChCh :yes:

It's a sophisticated tame little toddler by comparison to the Fiat :pinch: that was a 28lt 4cyl beast.... one shot on it's 1st fire-up looking straight into the exhaust ports looked like peering into the throats of two blast furnaces :shit:

I don't know a lot about the Lycoming special, - any more stuff on it would be welcome.
But ..... what I do know is that the Lycoming engine was slightly more civilised than the FIAT!

I enjoyed the bit about driving into a petrol station spitting flames out the sides! :laugh:

335722

BTW. I think the Megola engine should be called a "Radial Rotary".

Same debate is aired with these two motors.....there's reference to Orbital Radial

1906 Adams Farwell 8lt 5cyl

https://youtu.be/tZmd7k33JWE

This is a experimental 3cyl 2stroke

https://youtu.be/Gq8Q-5AJ9mU

WilDun

16th March 2018, 11:53

335743335744

We used to play around with these little 50cc Italian Itoms, and I think three were even entered in IOM TT the first year the 50cc racing came into being there in the early sixties. (one being ridden by a young lady called Beryl Swain) - the hopefuls thought that they would be competitive, but Honda and Suzuki machines totally blew them away! - I'm sure though that it was good fun.
I actually had three of them and I guess they could do about 50 (MPH) in standard trim. One of them I tried racing ( rare early model with leading link forks as in the picture). I got mine up to about 68 mph with a bit of fiddling around - it had a short megaphone exhaust and it was LOUD and I don't know if anyone remembers the old (aluminium) Harpic tins with a small outlet at the top - I cut the bottom out and attached it to the end of the megaphone to quieten it down, (which it did massively) but it also made it a lot quicker! - can't prove that of course but it certainly flew!
The other two with the teleforks I left as standard and had a lot of fun with them.

The leading link fork model always confused the scrutineers when they tried the front brake by pushing it forward with the brake hard on and the front end rose up!

Grumph

20th March 2018, 19:37

husaberg

20th March 2018, 19:50

This is the pic I was referring to when I thought the JAP was a cycle pacer.
Note the bars - they're ridden effectively standing up with your arms down at your side to present the largest area - to give the most effective slipstream.

I like the riders right boot in the pic. A necessity I'd think to avoid injury from the belt...

Sorry bout the flash on the pic - can't turn the damm thing off.
I remember there was an old story in one of the pommy old bike rags that used to have lots of the old vintage stuff that had a write up with lots mainly continental pacer bikes. They all massive engined beasts, lots of froggy stuff i don't have a hope of ever spelling.
I was going to call in and see you today Greg but forgot to bring your number.

Crasherfromwayback

22nd March 2018, 12:12

Sorry bout the flash on the pic - can't turn the damm thing off.

Need to shoot in manual mode.

husaberg

22nd March 2018, 14:50

Need to shoot in manual mode.
All good things take time Pete
Only last year he wasnt able to post photos
The old dog is learning all the new tricks.:msn-wink:

Grumph

22nd March 2018, 16:20

Need to shoot in manual mode.

All good things take time Pete
Only last year he wasnt able to post photos
The old dog is learning all the new tricks.:msn-wink:

There is no manual mode. many have looked at it, no one has succeeded in turning the flash off. That was the best of 3 efforts.

Prob won't be long before I lose this forum on this computer. Unsupported browser. Already lost others since the latest worldwide software patch.
What money I do make, I make from knowing the old tricks...

Crasherfromwayback

22nd March 2018, 18:00

There is no manual mode. many have looked at it, no one has succeeded in turning the flash off. That was the best of 3 efforts.

.

What camera are you packing mate?

husaberg

5th April 2018, 21:05

Behind the Doors in the late 90's HRC
https://www.sportrider.com/behind-doors-hrc
Not a mill in the whole place

https://www.sportrider.com/sr-archive-riding-three-classic-grand-prix-racebikes
RG700 and Honda RS500

NSR500 VS NSR500V
https://www.sportrider.com/sr-archive-riding-mick-doohans-nsr500-tadayuki-okadas-nsr500v-and-production-nsr500v#page-2

190mech

6th April 2018, 22:44

The HRC article looked like an assembly area,we'll likely never see just how the machines are fabricated..

NSR500 appeared to be a parallel twin,wonder how the counterbalance was designed?

husaberg

6th April 2018, 23:05

The HRC article looked like an assembly area,we'll likely never see just how the machines are fabricated..

As its said in the article thats because all the fabrication is actually outsoursed.

There is a poster on KB that has done some work for HRC and Honda he can confirm this for us.
He confirmed all that was in an AMN bit i posted years ago.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130257133#post1130257133
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130257136#post1130257136

That
Paging Brian

NSR500 appeared to be a parallel twin,wonder how the counterbalance was designed?<strike></strike>

The NSR500V was a V twin single crank basically an overgrown NSR250 (although it may have had a balancer gear and maybe shaft by the look of it.)
here is another write up on the 500 twin and four
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130223586#post1130223586
Pretty sure its over 90 degrees in typical honda fashion for a open class bike, the inlets are side by side at the rear as on the 250s
336027336028336029
Album full of pics NSR500V
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4953
The NSR500 four was a wide angle v four single crank. With a balance shaft on the later models the carbs are on the rear. (first models they were in the rear.)
336030336031336032
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4837
Album full of pics NSR500

190mech

7th April 2018, 09:32

husaberg

7th April 2018, 09:52

AHH!I see now,,the twin side by side carbs fooled me,your pics 32 thru 34 showed why...The reed boxes must stand vertically which isnt the rule today,but then again the article spoke of milder tuning..Thanks for the good info Husa!!
Sorry i don't agree.
The NSR500V was more mildly tuned but it was a production racer twin, so it has less tuning potential and it was not designed for a works racer, But due its design helped by lower required weight under the rules it needed to be cheaper to build and cheaper for a privateer to maintain.ie less moving parts lower state of tune.

The reeds are twisted 90 degrees not for any reason other than keeping the engine narrow and making them fit, which is mostly why its a V twin. This decreases its aerodynamic drag and mechanically allows it to stronger narrower crank with less bearings all of which lowers the rocking couple vibration. Another plus is it allows you to runs a linkage carbs. Also flow area of the reeds is still the same no matter what angle. only the case induction is potentially a little compomised,The Reeds are this way on a NSR250 as well as a KR1 for all the same reasons.
Actually one of the reeds is also twisted on the RGV250 as well.
Engine design is a series of compromises

190mech

7th April 2018, 11:59

husaberg

7th April 2018, 12:41

I agree on the vertical reeds allowing a narrow/stiffer engine,but isnt the front cylinder inlet tract much longer than the aft and also its path dealing with the spinning crank whereas the aft jug has a somewhat direct shot?Always thought a multi cylinder engine should be as equal between cylinders as possible..
Looking at reed tracts like the modern kart engines made me ask about the vertical setup;
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page1844

Cheers! John
Ideally but that’s not always the best solution a compromise was achieved just as the Reed intakes and angles on the NSR500 are compromised. The YZR500 and Cagiva 500 only effectively breathes through 4 of the 6 petals. Plus one of their cranks rotate in the opposite direction with harms the intake efficiency. But this lowers the gyro effects on handling

Honda went the single crank route for less friction and weight then sort to minimise its issues. Width, gyro balance etc
While Suzuki Yamaha and Cagiva went the twin crank contra rotating route which is narrower but heavier and larger and more complicated.
Both designs are compromised in regards to intake design. the twin cranks are compromised with transfer widths as well.
Thus the Hondas will make more power on account of having more room for wider transfers and less mechanical friction.
But this power needs to be fitted into a chassis and steer which is why Honda gave away some HP with reversing the direction of the engine adding a balance shaft and closing up the firing order.
But then again a square four design or twin crank v4 with Disc valves instead of reeds will make even more power again. But it will be wider with more mechanical and aero drag.
It would also be a harder to package and harder to ride. if you were designing an engine for max power with reeds it would be a straight four like a TZ750, with a firing every 90 degrees but its irrelevant to have such an high power engine in a solo as its too wide and hard to package,plus to hard to ride as a solo, but that’s why the sidecars keep running the straight fours.
Design is about minimising the compromises that effect performance. This is both Chassis and Engine.
You need to do all this while maximising the benefits of the design path chosen.
The Japanese are true masters at that.
there is a great anology with a Rolls Royce jet engine that was developed using seperate teams each made the part they dealt with to provide optimial performance, but didn't consider how it would effecyt the other parts when the engine was put together it was rather crap.The seperate bits although optimal for individual performance wouldn't actually work with each other. They brought in a retired engineer to sort it out and get all the teams to actually listen to each other.

Michael Moore

8th April 2018, 09:05

Lloyd Taylor's fabricated sheet metal engines:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor1a.jpg
through
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor1g.jpg

and

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor2a.jpg
through
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor2f.jpg

you can also go to the directory

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics

and then click on the file links.

http://crosleyautoclub.com/Mighty_Tin.html

I looked and found this PDF which is a higher quality scan of one of the articles than what I have on my website:

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/AardvarkPublisherAttachments/9990481085160/1961-12_HR_TNT_Engine_Intro-Expo_1-6.pdf

I know of one person who, about 20 years ago, was looking at Taylor's concept for making small utility and drone engines for a military contract. The engines could be very light which would be useful on an aero drone. He visited Taylor who was retired and working on his engines from a modest and not very fancy home shop.

A little over 2000F is mentioned as the temperature for the furnace brazing which is within reach with many pottery/glass kilns or heat treatment ovens. I'd think a skilled weldor could probably build one without resorting to the furnace brazing.

cheers,
Michael

190mech

8th April 2018, 09:35

Grumph

8th April 2018, 11:49

Ive often thought about fabricating a 125cc 2 stroke cylinder with a steel barrel and sheet metal ducts and water jacket..With welding and brazing skills I would bet a decent one could be made in a home shop..

You're not the only one....Modern nickel bronze rods flow very well indeed and a lot of the "difficult" areas in a fabrication would fill by capillary action IMO.
I'd think that a relatively low temp stress relief heat treatment would be needed to keep the bore round.

190mech

8th April 2018, 11:58

4140 is a common metal for aircraft cylinders,4130 is easier to work with.Any ideas for a suitable steel barrel material for a 2 stroke one off build?

Grumph

8th April 2018, 12:04

4140 is a common metal for aircraft cylinders,4130 is easier to work with.Any ideas for a suitable steel barrel material for a 2 stroke one off build?

Mild steel. It's been used before as cylinder material. Doesn't wear too badly, easily worked too. If desired it can be hard chromed or nicasil coated.

Iron pipe is also a possibilty. Given the right flux, it bronze welds well.

Michael Moore

8th April 2018, 12:43

I'd think that a relatively low temp stress relief heat treatment would be needed to keep the bore round.

The TNT article says they used .13" wall 4130 cylinders and the engine comes out of the furnace stress relieved and accurate to within .01".

Would a 2T need a thicker steel cylinder because of the openings for the ports, or will the ports brazed/welded to the cylinder stiffen it up? All steels are pretty much the same stiffness, so mild steel on the liner with plating to help the wear sounds reasonable to me.

The ports could be done by hammerforming, no need for a press and sturdy die. I think copper plating could be done as a DIY process.

The one drawback I see is that the thin walls are probably not going to lend themselves to experimental porting, there may not be enough metal to allow grinding.

190mech

8th April 2018, 12:55

I had a concern about the swiss cheeze 2 stroke cylinder deforming under clamping loads,but Jan Thiel showed a cylinder layout from his past on another forum that had wide spaced sleeves cast in for through studs so the cylinder had little distortion..

Grumph

8th April 2018, 14:04

The TNT article says they used .13" wall 4130 cylinders and the engine comes out of the furnace stress relieved and accurate to within .01".

Would a 2T need a thicker steel cylinder because of the openings for the ports, or will the ports brazed/welded to the cylinder stiffen it up? All steels are pretty much the same stiffness, so mild steel on the liner with plating to help the wear sounds reasonable to me.

The ports could be done by hammerforming, no need for a press and sturdy die. I think copper plating could be done as a DIY process.

The one drawback I see is that the thin walls are probably not going to lend themselves to experimental porting, there may not be enough metal to allow grinding.

Yeah, what you fabricate would be the finished item unless you're prepared to take it apart again..
Be a good and fairly quick way to prototype something different though.
I'd thought transfer ports could be built-up flat wall fabrications - after all, that's the main shapes of the Aprilia transfers. Exhausts would be a bit harder though. Squashed tube ?

Through bolt stresses can be accomodated with welded in tubular stud passages between your top and bottom plates - Like the aforementioned cast in pieces.

Edit - memory just kicked in, LOL. The Dent water cooled Villiers conversion had an outer water jacket consisting of a large dia piece of alloy tube trapped between the head and a fin left on the air cooled barrel. Wouldn't be too hard to arrange something similar for quick access to the inner barrel.

husaberg

8th April 2018, 14:40

Edit - memory just kicked in, LOL. The Dent water cooled Villiers conversion had an outer water jacket consisting of a large dia piece of alloy tube trapped between the head and a fin left on the air cooled barrel. Wouldn't be too hard to arrange something similar for quick access to the inner barrel.
I was thinking of a inner threaded thin wall pipe on outer section just use a bigger thread on one end so it can be slipper over. KISS

Grumph

8th April 2018, 17:23

I was thinking of a inner threaded thin wall pipe on outer section just use a bigger thread on one end so it can be slipper over. KISS

Easier to design than do, lol. The Dent version was simple plain tube.

husaberg

8th April 2018, 17:31

Easier to design than do, lol. The Dent version was simple plain tube.
How did he seal it so he could take it apart to modify.
Thinking about it you could just braze on threads male threads one large at the base, one small at the top of cylinder easy peasy and self agligning. braze on female threads to the pipe outer housing it would end up much like a water filter housing. only threaded at bout ends

Grumph

8th April 2018, 19:54

How did he seal it so he could take it apart to modify.
Thinking about it you could just braze on threads male threads one large at the base, one small at the top of cylinder easy peasy and self agligning. braze on female threads to the pipe outer housing it would end up much like a water filter housing. only threaded at bout ends

Judging by the only pics I've seen he used hardish sheet rubber top and bottom. Putting the head on clamped it all down and seems to have sealed it well enough. Looks like around 3mm wall alloy tube as the jacket.
Today you might set the tube into a groove top and bottom - with O rings to be compressed.

husaberg

10th April 2018, 17:51

Seen this just a minute ago
Someone in Northlands is making binks mousetrap carbs.
Looks very well make as well.
http://binks.co.nz/workshop/
336073336076336075336074

Grumph

10th April 2018, 19:37

pete376403

11th April 2018, 22:03

The mousetrap is the road carb. It's capable of being throttled down.

The Rat Trap was the race carb. It had a "trap" or flat flap which was held down for starting - then once the bike had fired, the trigger was pulled (literally) the trap went to full open and you were off...
Used on speedway bikes, once it was open you used a kill button to control speed. To stop, kill button again. Reset carb for next race.
Remember, everything on speedway was rolling start at that time. And alcohol fuel.

I heard all about them from the old man who used them up to the mid 1930's on speedway - and grass tracks. Good on speedway, not bad on mile grass, hard to control on half mile grass...

Hence the term "button off in the corner..." My dad raced at Kilbirnie way back when. At first he used to ride from home in Wadestown, take of the muffler and lights and do the events, put the stuff back on and ride home. Later on he had a bike built by Len Southward called the "Home Brew" - Harley peashooter frame, Indian motor with one cylinder removed and the magneto mounted on a plate over the hole. Don't know about the carb, though.

Grumph

12th April 2018, 07:00

Hence the term "button off in the corner..." My dad raced at Kilbirnie way back when. At first he used to ride from home in Wadestown, take of the muffler and lights and do the events, put the stuff back on and ride home. Later on he had a bike built by Len Southward called the "Home Brew" - Harley peashooter frame, Indian motor with one cylinder removed and the magneto mounted on a plate over the hole. Don't know about the carb, though.

Probably a Schebler carb. Used on Peashooters, one of the best of the period. Len was pretty clued up. Met him once.
We had just finished our first keeler build and were mounting the mast off the South Brighton bridge by the Pleasant Point yacht club - as you did then.
Some bugger started running a big speedboat up and down the measured kilo on the estuary - coming right up to the bridge before turning around which gave us a big problem with his wash...
After some serious abuse from the old man, the guy came alongside - and it was Len in the Allison engined boat he built. They recognised each other and it was all old mates again - and he pissed off and let us get the job finished.

WilDun

13th April 2018, 09:17

...........After some serious abuse from the old man, the guy came alongside - and it was Len in the Allison engined boat he built...........

Was that the Allison V12 aircraft engine, (as was used in the Airacobra and the Kittyhawk)?

Grumph

13th April 2018, 09:50

Was that the Allison V12 aircraft engine, (as was used in the Airacobra and the Kittyhawk)?

Yes - AFAIK the boat is in Southwards Museum outside Wellington.

pete376403

13th April 2018, 19:35

Yes - AFAIK the boat is in Southwards Museum outside Wellington. with the prop shaft still bent from whatever it hit, putting the prop through the bottom of the hull and sinking the boat.

nadroj

14th April 2018, 19:20

10fn charct

Brian d marge

17th April 2018, 12:29

I did all right out of Honda last month and may will be steady ...

Havent been to HRC since Xmas , ..the cheap fkrs

Anyway , to be honest there is nothing special there.

Half the people on this list would be better engineers than HRC ,,, but ...Honda is an old Japanese company , and the japanese have ways of doing things , that if you havent dealt with or dont know Japanese culture ...ya will struggle with,

company is king. and group loyalty is very important , ( its changing !)

Soooo , the Japanese work well as a team , each have their duty and they WILL do exactly as they are told or instructed and do it very well. Kanji is very important and they can tell if someone is Japanese or not simply by the look of the Kanji ... I have done an experiment where I have 3 bits of paper one with a kanji written by a japanese person and two by me as best I can ,,,,90% of the time the japanese spot the native written kanji !)

so detail and precision are important to em ... So as a unit they work very well . each having their own areas of expertise and no idividualism , no.."I know what Im talking about" .....bullshyt which you get in NZ ......( seen that a million times )

Secondly they make business relationships , which are strong and loyal. You contract to Honda and Honda will look after you ..( alas that is changing ) and they can be as racist as fk in that they only trust other japanese , they WILL steal / use western ideas but it will be made here .and trust the opinion of other Japanese to the point of absurdity sometimes .....( can tell u a million stories on that as well ....)

NZ could ( and did ) produce high tech material , but would have to change its approach to how it goes about that process. imho

Just a few thoughts

The Hrc reception girl is a bit plump ..no thank u ...., Wakoshi reception are HOT but cant touch , Asaka girls are do able just for the record

Grumph

17th April 2018, 15:12

The Hrc reception girl is a bit plump ..no thank u ...., Wakoshi reception are HOT but cant touch , Asaka girls are do able just for the record

Good to know...

Re the company ethos - an old guy I knew went to Nissan late 70's - tagged onto their sportscar race programme - and used to tell me much the same things.
The round eyes were useful - but after they'd been useful, it was sayonara, mate...And respect the hierarchy at your peril. It probably helped he was a pretty senior bloke when he went there - he got listened to.

WilDun

18th April 2018, 09:14

All very interesting I must say!
To us the Japanese are an enigma, but they have a good attitude towards team work and organising business. However they do seem to pay attention when in our usual slap happy disorganised (wildcard?) way, we occasionally come up with something interesting, then they will exploit it to the hilt!
That's not to say that they are not good innovators themselves, but they don't seem to scoff at other peoples' ideas either.
Kiwis and Aussies appear to be good at figuring out and perfecting ideas they have managed to dig up and combine but unfortunately, (although being individuals and capable of individual thought) they often do not have the resources to go any further and the Asians with their expertise in team work step in to help ..... themselves! and why not? we leave it all outside on a plate, free to a good home!

BTW I am not New Zealand born but I have lived here a lot longer than most people on this forum and I am proud to call myself a "Kiwi".

Grumph

18th April 2018, 19:51

The old guy I quoted above had been at Coopers in the 60's then went to the US and did the Can-Am series in a Lola. Then went to Experimental Engine division of GM for two years...Then got asked to join the Nissan programme by the Pom running it. When I knew him he was doing rally cars out of a small shop in ChCh. AMIMechE and member of the S.A.E. too.

His comment on Nissan in the 70's was they they couldn't innovate on their own. Their ethos was to toe the company line. The roundeyes were there to bring the designers and engineers up to speed on the current innovations - and take them forward if possible. All the overseas guys were on short term contracts.

tjbw

23rd April 2018, 05:23

What if we inject petrol and diesel at the same time?

Inroducing RCCI:

https://youtu.be/pCr6bjQMrgU

Frits Overmars

23rd April 2018, 06:44

What if we inject petrol and diesel at the same time?
Inroducing RCCI:
https://youtu.be/pCr6bjQMrgUI used to run RCCI without even knowing it (hadn't seen the abbreviation before). With regular diesels running lambda values of well over 1, there is enough oxygen in the cylinder to burn not only the injected diesel fuel, but also a fair amount of LPG, which happens to be half the price of diesel :msn-wink:.
Point of attention: do not introduce the LPG until downstream of the intercooler, or you may experience the hood-removing mother of all backfires.

husaberg

23rd April 2018, 14:27

I used to run RCCI without even knowing it (hadn't seen the abbreviation before). With regular diesels running lambda values of well over 1, there is enough oxygen in the cylinder to burn not only the injected diesel fuel, but also a fair amount of LPG, which happens to be half the price of diesel :msn-wink:.
Point of attention: do not introduce the LPG until downstream of the intercooler, or you may experience the hood-removing mother of all backfires.
its a pretty well known trick here that's been arround for years that when uprating turbo diesels you can also use a LPG as a claytons Nitros as a bonus as well as being cleaner burning it also works as an additional intercooler.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Diesel-LPG-an-Amazing-Breakthrough&A=112610

Pursang

23rd April 2018, 17:11

I used to run RCCI without even knowing it (hadn't seen the abbreviation before). With regular diesels running lambda values of well over 1, there is enough oxygen in the cylinder to burn not only the injected diesel fuel, but also a fair amount of LPG, which happens to be half the price of diesel :msn-wink:.
Point of attention: do not introduce the LPG until downstream of the intercooler, or you may experience the hood-removing mother of all backfires.

Thanks Frits, Ive been considering adding an intercooler AND LPG boost to my Ford Transit Race Transporter. Now I know where (or Not) to place it. :2thumbsup

cheers, Daryl.

husaberg

24th April 2018, 23:18

tjbw

25th April 2018, 07:57

H1r worth writing home about but only in the early 70's:clap:

https://www.cycleworld.com/how-does-stress-concentration-affect-motorcycle-engine (https://www.dailymotion.com/21d0993a-c46e-4362-8eba-31b04c048973)

Not found, try this one:

https://www.cycleworld.com/how-does-stress-concentration-affect-motorcycle-engine

husaberg

25th April 2018, 08:49

Not found, try this one:

https://www.cycleworld.com/how-does-stress-concentration-affect-motorcycle-engine
yeah i tried a direct link to the video, it didnt work. Not sure about the silly music though.

WilDun

25th April 2018, 09:43

husaberg

25th April 2018, 09:54

Yes, he's absolutely correct and starting out as a fitter & turner I learnt that one early on in the piece - the japanese are good engineers, but seem to have omitted all this knowledge in the interest of cheaper production.

Another thing, the British Whitworth thread is superior with it's rounded thread form but again it's probably cheaper to use the sharp corners of the present day metric thread forms! (this BTW also includes the American or unified thread form.)

All true but the studs used did not give trouble until the Kawasaki three was modified for racing.
What Cameron omitted to say was The engine he used was likely a modified mach 3 engine that he originally tuned and built up to racing spec.
I believe that Japanese are masters at just doing enough for what its designed for.
They would have likely spec'd a different stud in the real H1R.
That said Camerons later H2 that he built in a couple of weeks was also faster than the Kawasaki fielded by Team Hansen.

Grumph

25th April 2018, 11:17

husaberg

25th April 2018, 12:02

FWIW, the H2 cases to turn them into H2R cases, had several stud base areas built up with weld.
I've got a Cycle World article here with a pic of a pile of cases with the welds visible.

I've also seen H1 cases with stud base areas cracked out of them...

I wouldn't mind seeing thoses pics and write ups.
He talks about the Boston cycles racing kawasakis h1 and H2 but doesn't have a lot of pics in TDC.

Grumph

25th April 2018, 13:51

I wouldn't mind seeing thoses pics and write ups.
He talks about the Boston cycles racing kawasakis h1 and H2 but doesn't have a lot of pics in TDC.

I've got the initial Cycle World articles about the H2R and the TR750. Jody Nicholas was on staff and riding for Suzuki at the time so he's written the TR article - with riding impressions in Japan. Ivan Wagar i think did the writeup for the H2R and rode it in Japan.

The early flexy flier TR makes interesting comparison to the final one analysed by Jennings in Cycle mag some years later. I have nothing on the later air cooled H2R or the water cooled version.

Let me know next time you're over here and I'll hunt them out - but I want them back !!!

husaberg

25th April 2018, 14:10

I've got the initial Cycle World articles about the H2R and the TR750. Jody Nicholas was on staff and riding for Suzuki at the time so he's written the TR article - with riding impressions in Japan. Ivan Wagar i think did the writeup for the H2R and rode it in Japan.

The early flexy flier TR makes interesting comparison to the final one analysed by Jennings in Cycle mag some years later. I have nothing on the later air cooled H2R or the water cooled version.

Let me know next time you're over here and I'll hunt them out - but I want them back !!!
Will do I still have your other stuff in a drawer next to my Computer.
Actually what year and month is it.

EssexNick

25th April 2018, 19:26

Any chance they'll be appear in one of your albums Husa?

husaberg

25th April 2018, 20:00

Any chance they'll be appear in one of your albums Husa?
Very good
there is already a TR album that has a test of a TR750 from about 76 and a H1 and H2R one
from plus lots of pipe and porting specs Some came from Grumph. Edit I haven't uploaded them..... I must have did that for a reason?
Is it alright to upload them Greg they are the ones you emailed me from Mike?
I topped up the TR one today.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5013
here is the Kawasaki ones
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4964

Grumph

25th April 2018, 20:23

Mike doesn't seem shy about sharing old information. I'd seen everything there before years earlier anyway. I'm sure he'd do it differently now, LOL.

As your PM file is full, pending a clearout, Magazines....

TR750 Cycle World March 72

H2R Cycle World February 72

Also found Cycle May 74 The kawasaki H2R an inside look by Cameron. Article mainly on H1/H2 differences.

EssexNick

25th April 2018, 22:24

Many thanks

husaberg

28th April 2018, 20:38

Paul Hallem one of the guys behind the Hunwick Hallam
Designed this I cant say I actually understand it as I cant see how its exhausted?
336453

After leaving HH Paul designed the Ecoforce EcoH (https://web.archive.org/web/20130816170131/http://ecoforce.com.au/home.html) horizontally-opposed twin, a fuel-injected four-stroke that used crankcase induction like a two-stroke. Crankcase pressure forced the mixture into the cylinder through a sidevalve head, harnessing the considerable pumping forces of the reciprocating internals to create an integrated supercharging effect. Gas-charged pneumatic valve control used a conventional camshaft to open the valves but closed them via pressure bled off the combustion chamber that was directly proportioned to engine speed in an attempt to remove some of the efficiency-robbing resistance of conventional springs. By their nature valve springs apply heavier resistance than necessary at lower engine speeds, as the spring rate is fixed and determined by the force needed to close the valves at the maximum engine speed. By eliminating this resistance, the EcoH exhibited better thermal efficiency and lower emissions while remaining simpler than traditional four-strokes, despite using a supposedly obsolete sidevalve cylinder head. The Ecoforce engine achieved some notoriety for its interesting mix of old and new technology applied in a unique fashion, and the claims of power and efficiency offered by the design appeared promising, but the engine ultimately never progressed beyond the prototype stage where a 86x68mm 790cc version produced 80 HP and 80 LB/FT of torque with a 8:1 compression ratio.

pete376403

28th April 2018, 21:26

Here's one for someone who has a stack of 70's Cycle magazines (and the time to go through them). There was a column (pretty sure it was "The Downhill Straight" by Michael Shuter). One of the columns featured a "British World Beater" engine design and there was a highly detailed line drawing with it. The engine was a double overhead cam (marketing insisted), pushrod ((easy for the lads in assembly) rocker operated side valves (pre war stock to use up). The article was, of course, tongue-in-cheek.

I'd love to read that again, and see the picture.

Grumph

29th April 2018, 07:33

Cycle did do a few spoof type articles - and I remember Shuter's column - but not that one.

One of his best was a talk with an AMA motocross expert at a party. Contract negotiations, brands, tracks all covered, then at the end the expert says with a heavy sigh, "but I've got to walk away - I'm pregnant" It was at the time the AMA allowed their first female pro riders....

husaberg

29th April 2018, 12:37

https://web.archive.org/web/20130816170131/http://ecoforce.com.au/home.html

WilDun

2nd May 2018, 10:38

The old SV engine isn't dead yet, Briggs & Stratton have been making virtually the same SV engine for nigh on 80 years (that's what I call a successful engine!), compactness with perhaps lower power and lower cost could still be important for several applications!

Crankcase charged? - good for a better power to weight ratio, it has been tried before and is actually successful in a range of small powerful model aircraft engines, where smoke produced by crankcase charging isn't so important - not so good for the bigger stuff!

I have a drawing somewhere of a small experimental OHV single cylinder engine ( approx 125cc, not model aircraft) from a few years back, which is crankcase charged, but the oil is removed (for reuse) from the fresh charge before it actually enters the combustion area.

Will try to find it and add it to this post.

Pursang

5th May 2018, 11:43

Crankcase charged? - good for a better power to weight ratio, it has been tried before and is actually successful in a range of small powerful model aircraft engines, where smoke produced by crankcase charging isn't so important - not so good for the bigger stuff!

How about a diaphragm to separate the wet sump from the intake charge? With 'clever' design it could also incorporate the check valves to control the induction, transfer and compressing the (super) charge, and the seals for the housing. And a blow-off valve for the over run or to maintain constant intake pressure. Only adds One moving part, too.

This would be suitable for a blow-through or direct injection system. Ideally, the Anti-Carburettor (air follows fuel) injection system. (post #29373 in ESE)

We will need lots of simple, efficient, quiet generators for recharging the batteries in E-bikes when you are further than a power cords length from the grid.

Cheers, Daryl.

WilDun

5th May 2018, 16:31

How about a diaphragm to separate the wet sump from the intake charge? With 'clever' design it could also incorporate the check valves to control the induction, transfer and compressing the (super) charge, and the seals for the housing. And a blow-off valve for the over run or to maintain constant intake pressure. Only adds One moving part, too.

This would be suitable for a blow-through or direct injection system. Ideally, the Anti-Carburettor (air follows fuel) injection system. (post #29373 in ESE)

We will need lots of simple, efficient, quiet generators for recharging the batteries in E-bikes when you are further than a power cords length from the grid.

Cheers, Daryl.
Yes, I have often thought that you could have a large diaphragm situated on the crankcase side wall, driven by the pulses from the crankcase - - not sure about pumping efficiency though - suck it and see I guess!

I'm sorry, I didn't find the picture I was talking about - I had to go to my son's place to help out with his alpacas - (200Km away), so I haven't had time to have a good look for it, but I'll find it!

As far as I can remember, the idea was that fresh charge leaving the crankcase went through a curved "transfer" pipe and the oil, being the heaviest constituent of the mixture was centrifuged out and returned to an oil tank for reuse - (can't exactly remember the details)
I guess the idea was to have an oil pump drawing from this tank, supplying the right amount to the mixture (as in Suzuki, Yamaha etc).

At the moment, as I see it the electric motor will take over, but in the immediate future the hybrid is probably the best (maybe only) way to go for the two stroke's survival on the roads or maybe even in the air - I don't want to sound pessimistic but the two stroke engine (rightly or wrongly) will be completely left out in the cold, ie unless someone can clean it up and address all it's other inherent problems - that's a pity of course, but that's how it is really!

Unless of course I'm wrong! :facepalm:

husaberg

5th May 2018, 16:50

The Norton Commando Triple "Jake"
336561336562336563

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/our-bikes/detail/291

WilDun

5th May 2018, 21:50

The Norton Commando Triple "Jake"

Very interesting and to me the Commando was a good machine (except for the vibes and that isolastic frame designed to allow it to vibrate!).
The original design of balancer (with the 2 rods) to my mind would have behaved in a very different way to the Ducati style etc.
The original would have produced straight up and down opposing forces whereas the single rod types would also introduce a turning(oscillating) force to the engine. - It seems that they both worked ok but it would be interesting just to hear someone else's theory.
Then the piston type would be different again! and Hele also did one with a single oscillating link (like the Ducati only earlier).
336569336571336572

Pursang

5th May 2018, 23:59

The air powered diaphragm pump is an efficient and well proven technology

Here's a couple of pics from my files:
336573
336574
336575

The first one has an extended piston to separate the crankcase from the charge, but why not use a larger diameter for even more boost?

The Shindaiwa is a commercial engine designed for garden equipment, eg Whipper Snippers where a wet sump 4 stroke is not ideal.
4stroke operation on 2stroke petroil. (could also use direct pumped lubrication with all the additional complication).
I've run my 4stroke mower on left over race fuel for years, no significant smoke.

The Ellwood 1300 rotary valve is an interesting bit of work.:clap:

cheers, Daryl

lohring

6th May 2018, 02:17

WilDun

6th May 2018, 09:15

Model crankcase supercharged four strokes have been around a long time. Of course the fuel needs to be mixed with oil. They even use a simple fuel injection system and get similar power to aerobatic piped two strokes. In this application consistent, throttleable power is critical.

Lohring Miller

336576 336577

YS - Yes that's the engine I was talking about! - I just couldn't remember the name at the time.

However, in full size engines such as this, I bet there would eventually be opposition from the legislators (for no real reason really, but the excuse of the fuel/oil mixing etc) and of course the scant lubrication coming from the fuel/oil mix requiring expensive roller bearings.
All ok in racing of course where tearing down the engine on a regular basis is commonplace but not really viable for everyday road work.

Our minds are conditioned not to use turbocharging or supercharging (being banned in racing) and we seem to have a mental block about using that!
That doesn't apply in the above example (not supercharged), but in Darryl's idea, that is quite possible.

Cars seem to be breaking down that barrier now and I had the pleasure of trying out a couple of cars with small turbocharged three cylinder four strokes - pretty amazing really - but will they last?
Even these (unfortunately) will eventually be superceded by electric (all driven by popular demand).

I may be wrong of course, but that's the situation as I see it anyway! :rolleyes:

Pursang

6th May 2018, 10:56

I once did some sketches for a two stroke stationary engine, as an alternative to the B&S or the Xxxda.

It had a half speed rotary valve in the inlet so every second cycle was a direct fresh air cylinder flush.

Now add a sealed 'wet' crankcase and diaphragm case pump, we can have a simple, clean, powerful, cool running, valveless engine with about 6 moving parts.

Run it on bio-hydrogen from algae, and there's not much left to complain about.

....but some-one undoubtedly will... "SAVE the ALGAE"!:blank:

Cheers, Daryl

190mech

6th May 2018, 11:06

The Norton counter balance blurb sparked a memory of my friends Yamaha TMAX technical paper he sent me;
http://www.ekoinstal.com/skutery/Yamaha%20XP500%20TMAX%20Technical%20Orientation%20 Guide.pdf

Nothing new in this world!!

OH, Save the Algae!!!

WilDun

6th May 2018, 12:41

I once did some sketches for a two stroke stationary engine, as an alternative to the B&S or the Xxxda.

It had a half speed rotary valve in the inlet so every second cycle was a direct fresh air cylinder flush........

Now add a sealed 'wet' crankcase and diaphragm case pump, ........
"SAVE the ALGAE"!:blank:

Cheers, Daryl

Darryl - I can't picture how your idea was intended to work (probably because my ability to visualise it isn't as good as it used to be!).

The Norton counter balance blurb sparked a memory of my friends Yamaha TMAX technical paper he sent me;
They are probably fantastic comfortable machines, but I'm sure they are too expensive for the average Joe Blow!
Maybe they could have employed that redundant "balancer" piston as a supercharger (or a generator)!

OH, Save the Algae!!!

Yeah? - not much chance of that when we keep advertising (and selling) all those chemicals for killing it!!!

Pursang

7th May 2018, 01:28

Darryl - I can't picture how your idea was intended to work (probably because my ability to visualise it isn't as good as it used to be!).

Yes, the original idea needed more work than I had time, at the time.
The (now redundant) half speed rotary valve would have worked something like this.
Isolating the transfer flow from the fresh air only through the boost port was an issue, not fully resolved.
336604

But Now, with crankcase diaphragm supercharging there are no transfer passages up from the case.
The pressure chamber supplies all the transfers & boost ports.

Fuel injection could be once per stroke for full power applications or every second cycle, with a fresh air scavenge in between, for economy /cruise.

cheers, Daryl.

WilDun

7th May 2018, 12:07

Yes, the original idea needed more work than I had time, ..........
But Now, with crankcase diaphragm supercharging there are no transfer passages up from the case............
The pressure chamber supplies all the transfers & boost ports.

fuel injection could be once per stroke for full power applications or every second cycle, with a fresh air scavenge in between, for economy /cruise.

cheers, Daryl.

Some original thought there Darryl, why don't you make a rough prototype and see if it runs.
Flettner did that with HCCI and had it running! (the "suck it and see principle"). Guess the piston lube would be by splash instead of mixture?

I remember reading about a (twin cylinder) boxer two stroke engine made somewhere in England which was favoured by fishermen due to the fact that the transfers on one cylinder could be shut off at low revs, effectively making it a smooth running supercharged single, which it seems was just right for low speed trawling.
Can't remember the name though!

husaberg

7th May 2018, 18:41

I remember reading about a (twin cylinder) boxer two stroke engine made somewhere in England which was favoured by fishermen due to the fact that the transfers on one cylinder could be shut off at low revs, effectively making it a smooth running supercharged single, which it seems was just right for low speed trawling.
Can't remember the name though!
Seagull?....

pete376403

7th May 2018, 20:04

Ailsa Craig made two cylinder two strokes. Engines of various forms were produced between 1905 and 1964

husaberg

7th May 2018, 20:14

KB member
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=8418.0
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/185483-Honda-gl400-adventure-bike-project?p=1131097057#post1131097057

Grumph

8th May 2018, 06:35

KB member
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=8418.0
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/185483-Honda-gl400-adventure-bike-project?p=1131097057#post1131097057

Mounting the Kohler into the BMW frame was, interesting....It mounts to a flat base plate. I stitched it and the box in for Dave and sorted a swingarm installation too. Last time I saw it, it had a little supercharger mounted.

WilDun

8th May 2018, 10:50

Seagull?....

No Husa, I think much bigger and better (boxer twin) and not an (emergency designed) poxy little outboard - but I've found the book it was in (it's called "Connaught") - I've managed to scan the text and pics and post them .....
There you go ..... a bit rough but all there!
336625336626336627

Mounting the Kohler into the BMW frame was, interesting....It mounts to a flat base plate. I stitched it and the box in for Dave and sorted a swingarm installation too. Last time I saw it, it had a little supercharger mounted.

Interesting project, it's always fulfilling to have something not ready made instead of a super duper "no input required" expensive thing, which won't be current next year anyway and which will have to be replaced in order to maintain "Street Cred"!

tjbw

8th May 2018, 12:23

No Husa, I think much bigger and better (boxer twin) and not an (emergency designed) poxy little outboard_ - but I've found the book it was in (it's called "Connaught") - I've managed to scan the text and pics and post them .....
There you go ..... a bit rough but all there!
336625336626336627

Interesting project, it's always fulfilling to have something not ready made instead of a super duper "no input required" expensive thing, which won't be current next year anyway and which will have to be replaced in order to maintain "Street Cred"!

Well I know the Connaught Irish bar in Birmingham, but not those engines, even though I also have that book. I asked my friend, (G) and it seems Connaught was a brand produced by Bordesley Engineering Co. Ltd.

WilDun

8th May 2018, 14:07

Well I know the Connaught Irish bar in Birmingham, but not those engines, even though I also have that book. I asked my friend, (G) and it seems Connaught was a brand produced by Bordesley Engineering Co. Ltd.

Probably was a small company bought out by Bordesley!

I think I bought that book in 1967 and it gave me many happy hours of reading.
It was maybe "old school" thinking even at that time of course, but it gave quite an insight into what the new technology was built on. The advanced Japanese two strokes (like the Yamaha TR2 and TR3) were about to come on the scene then and of course I was only interested in high performance engines and couldn't imagine any other kind!
However, now I have realized that more mundane stuff is the basis of it all and (as is happening with two strokes), when they are not on the roads, then no one is interested and they are eventually forgotten except by a few real enthusiasts - a shame, but the reality is, it's all driven by popular demand, profit or legislation and that normally decides what should or shouldn't exist in this world !

In my opinion! :rolleyes:

Ailsa Craig made two cylinder two strokes. Engines of various forms were produced between 1905 and 1964

I had never heard of "Ailsa Craig" as a company till now - I did know that it was an island (more of a large rock really) between Ireland and Scotland, often known as "Paddy's Milestone".

Grumph

8th May 2018, 19:40

Interesting project, it's always fulfilling to have something not ready made instead of a super duper "no input required" expensive thing, which won't be current next year anyway and which will have to be replaced in order to maintain "Street Cred"!

Dave's another Flettner. If he gets an idea, he builds it - though not into building engines. Sitting at his place is a small Honda twin which has Laverda SFC fiberglass on it. A perfect 7/8 scale SFC. Done as a joke as the Laverda twins were allegedly based on the SOHC Honda.
He's finishing his second Guzzi powered Morgan replica. Gorgeous.
He's got the sort of twisted imagination that made steampunk builds a natural for him too.

pete376403

9th May 2018, 20:16

Was the Kohler / BMW ever finished and ridden?

sidecar bob

9th May 2018, 21:39

Was the Kohler / BMW ever finished and ridden?

Not sure, but the Konig one was.:facepalm:
http://www.cas-krage.de/en/facts/history-facts/

Grumph

10th May 2018, 07:03

Was the Kohler / BMW ever finished and ridden?

Finished, reg and WOF'd. He used to ride it to work. He's moved and I wouldn't want to do his current route on a bike.
Main south Rd Rolleston - ChCh. Dreadful traffic.

Pursang

11th May 2018, 01:58

but I've found the book it was in (it's called "Connaught") - I've managed to scan the text and pics and post them .....
There you go ..... a bit rough but all there!
336625336626336627

Interesting note about the 'inevitable' loss of volumetric efficiency (power output/capacity) from preheating the charge.
Back in the 20's & 30's there were designs that greatly improved 'combustion' efficiency (power output/fuel used), smoothness and knock prevention,
by dramatically pre-heating and partially combusting the fuel, to produce simpler compounds that burned more efficiently in a slow, low compression engine.
Sort of like stratified combustion, but done in the carby/ manifold, not the cylinder head.

The diaphragm pumped 4stroke valveless stationary engine has now joined the queue of projects & experiments.

cheers, Daryl

WilDun

11th May 2018, 21:40

Interesting note about the 'inevitable' loss of volumetric efficiency (power output/capacity) from preheating the charge.
Back in the 20's & 30's there were designs that greatly improved 'combustion' efficiency (power output/fuel used), smoothness and knock prevention,
by dramatically pre-heating and partially combusting the fuel, to produce simpler compounds that burned more efficiently in a slow, low compression engine.
Sort of like stratified combustion, but done in the carby/ manifold, not the cylinder head.

The diaphragm pumped 4stroke valveless stationary engine has now joined the queue of projects & experiments.

cheers, Daryl

Yes Daryl, that idea also has its uses in the HCCI engine scenario with a hot charge being introduced to help initiate HCCI type combustion - the "inevitable" lack of density being compensated for by some form of forced charging (supercharge?).
We have allowed ourselves to become ham strung by competition rules when we don't need to be, -I realise that competition is great and much IC engine development comes from it, but also some of the "inevitable" (and necessary) competition rules (such as banning of supercharging) have influenced our thinking in other areas of IC engine design and tend to affect engines not needing to be governed by racing rules - there is a much bigger world out there.
I do think the car manufacturers have at last started to catch on though!

Grumph

12th May 2018, 09:39

Yes Daryl, that idea also has its uses in the HCCI engine scenario with a hot charge being introduced to help initiate HCCI type combustion - the "inevitable" lack of density being compensated for by some form of forced charging (supercharge?).
We have allowed ourselves to become ham strung by competition rules when we don't need to be, -I realise that competition is great and much IC engine development comes from it, but also some of the "inevitable" (and necessary) competition rules (such as banning of supercharging) have influenced our thinking in other areas of IC engine design and tend to affect engines not needing to be governed by racing rules - there is a much bigger world out there.
I do think the car manufacturers have at last started to catch on though!

Competition was great and much engine development came from it....past tense.
Many race formulas now are deliberately limited - not for the old reason of the technology not being appropriate for road use - but for the sheer cost.
For some years now, the top race car classes in NZ and Oz have had a lower level of technology than cars in the spectator parks.
It comes down to the size of the market. Something produced in many thousands will cost less than a short run of specialised items.
Bikes have gone much the same way - everything down from MotoGP level is production based now. Electronic aids are limited. In some cases, for race use, the electronic suites fitted are less comprehensive than the road version...
Sadly, racing now - whether car or bike - is more for entertainment than the improvement of the type...

WilDun

12th May 2018, 11:51

Competition was great and much engine development came from it....past tense.
Many race formulas now are deliberately limited - not for the old reason of the technology not being appropriate for road use - but for the sheer cost............Sadly, racing now - whether car or bike - is more for entertainment than the improvement of the type...

Yes, all very sad to see and I guess, as everything on the roads these days is saturated with technology now (both necessary and unnecessary) it has now got to the stage where skill or the ability to drive (cars) or know anything about them (cars and bikes) isn't even remotely necessary! - not fun anymore.

guyhockley

17th May 2018, 08:20

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-smokeys-hot-vapor-engine/

guyhockley

17th May 2018, 08:25

Different approach from crankcase supercharging but I hope it's a foul stroke Will approves of!
https://youtu.be/eWZfRdm9u9c

guyhockley

17th May 2018, 08:44

Regards fabricated ports. This has been done in the Bantam racing club, usually combined with a water-cooling conversion. One example;
http://bsabantamracing.editboard.com/t746p25-mike-powell-s-125-engine
Brief explanation of how about 6 or 7 messages down on page 2.
He doesn't mention any problems, but I know of one bloke who had problems honing the finished (cast iron D1) barrel as it seemed to have locally hardened round the ports...

190mech

17th May 2018, 12:08

Guy,
Thanks for posting the Bantam fabricated port/cylinder link!I would like to build a similar setup for the sluggish 90cc scooter engines,,it gives me hope that other crazy folk are out there doing the same thing!!:yes:

WilDun

18th May 2018, 23:25

Different approach from crankcase supercharging but I hope it's a foul stroke Will approves of!
https://youtu.be/eWZfRdm9u9c

That is very interesting story on Smokey Yunick, and I guess It does say something for my belief in a hot charge working, especially with HCCI and supercharge to make it all possible (with modern metallurgy of course).
Would a more modest/simple/efficient engine running at constant speed, driving a generator to power electric motors (with modern controls) to do the rest, be adequate?
Whether it's 2 or 4 stroke to me doesn't matter, it's all a question of either of them being able to survive at all! (remember electric motors, turbines etc looming)!

I think that the engine in the animation is more or less the same idea as the Japanese model aircraft engine I described earlier (YS), basically, crankcase compression each revolution, (one compression being saved in a chamber up top and both being released into the cylinder when the intake valve opens every two revolutions, also a power stroke every second revolution (therefore supercharge) - premix ? ....... no!