Oddball engines and prototypes

[husaberg]

As the title says........

[husaberg]

and more.....

[WilDun]

Hell, all set up in a flash - HUSA certainly hasn't been pissing around! - I wasn't expecting this thread to be set up right away when I suggested it in The Bucket Foundry thread earlier today. I then went off to tidy up my garage, came back and found it all done and dusted - Didn't think anybody would even have noticed my post yet! -

I guess the upside is that at least we will know which thread we are on and (shouldn't) be talking at cross purposes (in the bucket Foundry) - the downside, it does split up another good thread (but probably will avoid posters fighting to talk over other posters on seperate subjects.) - time will tell. - good luck!

[unstuck]

Was that Yeoman ever finished?

[husaberg]

Was that Yeoman ever finished?

Don't think so, Grumph kinds of knows his son in passing, it might have been lost in the quake too.

Alpha disk valve semi Viliers Greeves based in a manner of speaking but breathed via the crank webs.

[unstuck]

Don't think so, Grumph kinds of knows his son in passing, it might have been lost in the quake too.

Damn shame, seems like an interesting concept.

[husaberg]

Damn shame, seems like an interesting concept.

Yes very interesting......might not have been as efficient straight of the bat but very interesting concept.

Bit of a mixed bag
The DKW is a triple that predates the NS500 by about 30 years also had a very interesting lab seal set up.

The supermono Duck very tasty and the balancer piston set up.
The AJS porcupine designed as a supercharged engine the fins on its head gave its name they had a high silver content for conductivity.

The BSA MC1 bsa management refused to let it race when designer Hele failed to guarantee it would 100% win in its first outing. It was a radial 4 valve in about 1954.
OH there was a Special experimental Manx in there also

[husaberg]

The Koing Yes that one, designed as a outboard developed By A unknown Kiwi Kim Newcombe that so nearly won the world 500cc championship he tragically died and yet still managed to finish second.
A boxer four with shared disk valves. Plus a flying web crankshaft.

[husaberg]

Split singles.

[husaberg]

The Christenson

The DKW piston supercharged split single.

The binks mousetrap

The Wal Philips injector

[husaberg]

Anzani set up with disk inlet

The Nissan super turbo March engine

An odd v2v8

The supemono balancer set but with the balancer rod
The BMW stirrup balancer

[husaberg]

More alpha and Anzani

The Clarke engine

[husaberg]

The barker headless.
four pistons four carbs.

[spanner spinner]

306032not a bike engine but imagine if the car guys had got them sorted a engine that will run on anything that will burn, and the engine note

[husaberg]

The yanks had a series of prototype turbine powered cars out on evaluation in the 60's the tacho scared the willies out of the consumers, I guess the mileage would have been atrocious as well.
I can't remember what it was..googles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car


The Chrysler Turbine Car was the first and only consumer test ever conducted of gas turbine-powered cars. Of the total 55 units built (5 prototypes and 50 "production" cars), most were scrapped at the end of a trial period, with only nine remaining in museums and private collections. Though Chrysler's turbine engine project was terminated in 1977, the Turbine Car was the high point of a three decade project to perfect the engine for practical use.

Engine[edit]





Engine compartment of a Chrysler 1963 Turbine car
The fourth-generation Chrysler turbine engine runs at up to 44,500 revolutions per minute, according to the owner's manual,[3] and could operate using diesel fuel, unleaded gasoline, kerosene, JP-4 jet fuel, and even vegetable oil. The engine can run on virtually anything with combustible properties and "Chrysler claimed the turbine could gulp everything from peanut oil to Chanel No. 5."[4] No air/fuel adjustments are required to switch from one fuel type to another and the only evidence of which fuel was used is the odor of the exhaust.

The engine has just 1/5 of the moving parts of a traditional piston-based internal combustion engine (60 rather than 300).[5] The turbine spins on simple sleeve bearings for vibration-free running. Its simplicity offers the potential for long life, and because no combustion contaminants enter engine oil, no oil changes are considered necessary. The 1963 Turbine's engine generated 130 brake horsepower (97 kW; 132 PS) and an instant 425 pound force-feet (576 N·m) of torque at stall speed, making it good for 0 to 60 mph (0 to 97 km/h) in 12 seconds at an ambient temperature of 85 °F (29 °C)—it can sprint quicker if the ambient air was cooler and denser.

The lack of many moving parts and the lack of liquid coolant eases maintenance, while the exhaust does not contain carbon monoxide, unburned carbon, or raw hydrocarbons. Nevertheless, the turbine generates nitrogen oxides and the challenge of limiting them proved an ongoing problem throughout development.

The power turbine is connected, without a torque converter, through a gear reduction unit to an only moderately modified TorqueFlite automatic transmission. The flow of the combustion gases between the gas generator and free power turbine provides the same functionality as a torque converter but without using a conventional liquid medium. Twin rotating recuperators transfer exhaust heat to the inlet air, greatly improving fuel economy. Varying stator blades prevent excessive top end speeds, and provide engine braking on deceleration.

Throttle lag and exhaust gas temperatures at idle plague early models; Chrysler was able to remedy or mitigate these to some degree. Acceleration lag, however, remains a problem, and fuel consumption is excessive. Acceleration is outstanding provided the turbine is spun up (by applying power) prior to releasing the brakes. Otherwise it is mediocre. The Turbine Car also features a fully stainless steel exhaust system, the exits of which are flat in cross section. This was intended to spread the exhaust gases thinly and thus cool them further, in order to allow the vehicle to stand in traffic without risking damage to following traffic. The combustor, or burner, is somewhat primitive by the standards of modern turbojet engines. A single reverse-flow canister featuring a more-or-less standard spark plug for ignition is employed. Had the engine been further developed, annular combustion chambers along with a second power turbine might have improved power and economy even more. The transmission has "idle" instead of "neutral".[6]

The turbine car has some operational and aesthetic drawbacks. The car sounds like a giant vacuum cleaner, which was unexpected to consumers who were more familiar with the sound of a large American V8. That said, some observers admired the sound. High altitudes also cause problems for the combined starter-generator. Additionally, failing to follow the correct start-up procedure will cause the engine to stall; some drivers thought they could warm up the engine similar to the way they did with a gasoline engine. They would press the accelerator pedal to the floor before the engine had reached proper temperature. Instead of warming the engine, the excess fuel slowed the turbine down and resulted in the opposite of the desired effect. Doing this, however, did not do any permanent damage to the engine. In fact, it was possible to apply full throttle immediately after starting the engine without much fear of excessive wear. The engines were remarkably durable considering how fragile turbine engines are when compared to internal combustion piston engines. Troubles were remarkably few for such a bold experiment. It is not known how many testers made the mistake of using the leaded pump gas of the era; the tetraethyl lead leaves debilitating deposits within the engine. It was the one flammable liquid Chrysler recommended not be used; it was also by far the easiest fuel to obtain. Even so, more than 1.1 million test miles were accumulated by the 50 cars given to the public, and operational downtime stood at only 4%.

Thanks willythekid who sent me tis video
videos can be posted in this thread so link only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2A5ijU3Ivs

[WilDun]

HUSA,
Slow down mate, feed it in slowly - it's very interesting of course, but we need time to study it all and try to digest everything!! :sweatdrop

[unstuck]

HUSA,
Slow down mate, feed it in slowly - it's very interesting of course, but we need time to study it all and try to digest everything!! :sweatdrop

Yeah, Im still trying to get my head around that barker headless.:2thumbsup

[WilDun]

The Karol Ansdale Engine.
Obviously the design wasn't finalised and up and running, possibly not even reaching the prototype stage. There is no sign of it on the net that I can find but this has been taken from a very old scrapbook I had tucked away.
Having had a quick look again, I can see that I hadn't sat down all those years ago and thought about the concept thoroughly enough to properly understand it !
Looking quickly at it again (after a lot of years), I feel that the surface speeds (at the sealing surfaces) may be have been too high, then again maybe not because the section containing the pistons/cylinders probably rotate at half speed. Got to study it more myself!

306042306043306044

[husaberg]

Yeah, Im still trying to get my head around that barker headless.:2thumbsup

I are pretty sure it is a uniflow design like this one, Neil Hintz did.

[husaberg]

Some more pics of the uniflows of Neils

plus the Clerk engine

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Clerk_two-stroke.html

[unstuck]

Is that one using O ring seals as opposed to head gaskets?

[WilDun]

Some more pics of the uniflows of Neils
[/url]

Being quite new to the scene, I had no idea that Neil had a uniflow engine actually in a bike! - guess he's tried everything possible, that's over 20 years at least - still as keen as ever - remarkable!

[unstuck]

Interesting concept.:niceone:

[husaberg]

Being quite new to the scene, I had no idea that Neil had a uniflow engine actually in a bike! - guess he's tried everything possible, that's over 20 years at least - still as keen as ever - remarkable!

I was hoping Neil would share a little it had conrods and pistons from a weedeater I think.
From what I understand they had to stop the racing as the homemade ignition interfering with the Ohaka bases electronic equipment.


Is that one using O ring seals as opposed to head gaskets?

Yip..............306058

[Yow Ling]

Is that one using O ring seals as opposed to head gaskets?

You only need head gaskets if a head is fitted, so maybe they are base gaskets

[GrayWolf]

this is one that could have, should have, would have,,,,, but true to the Brit bike industry???

The stepped piston 2T engine developed by Bernard Hooper for Norton, The Wulf 500, of which, one was made!!

http://tinyurl.com/ozetzn8

http://tinyurl.com/o4zeb9m

http://tinyurl.com/nrq4tl4

[Sable]

Commer TS3

"The engine was unusual in being an opposed piston engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed_piston_engine) where each horizontal cylinder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_%28engine%29) contains two pistons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston), one at each end, that move in opposition to each other.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-TS3-5) Even more unusually, both sets of pistons drove only a single crankshaft; most opposed piston engines have a separate crankshaft at each end of the cylinder. The TS3 engine used a single crankshaft beneath the cylinders, each piston driving it through a connecting rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecting_rod), a rocker lever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever) and a second connecting rod. The crankshaft had six crankpins and there were six rockers.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Modern_High-Speed_Oil_Engines.2C_Commer_TS3-6)
The engine was a two-stroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine), compression-ignition diesel engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) with uniflow-ported (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniflow_diesel_engine) cylinders.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Modern_High-Speed_Oil_Engines.2C_Commer_TS3-6) Scavenging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scavenging_%28automotive%29) was performed by a Roots blower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_blower).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Roots_naming-7) and was mounted on the front of the engine and driven by a long quill shaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quill_drive) from a chain drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_drive) at the rear of the engine. Although the engines gained a reputation for good performance, this quill shaft was somewhat prone to breaking if over-worked."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3

[unstuck]

You only need head gaskets if a head is fitted, so maybe they are base gaskets

True that. I made that assumption because the piston crowns were facing that way. And I guess I am used to seeing a head on TOP or SIDE of an engine.:niceone:

[unstuck]

Commer TS3



I think I watched either that one or a TS4 on low gear, was very interesting.:2thumbsup

[husaberg]

this is one that could have, should have, would have,,,,, but true to the Brit bike industry???

The stepped piston 2T engine developed by Bernard Hooper for Norton, The Wulf 500, of which, one was made!!

http://tinyurl.com/ozetzn8

http://tinyurl.com/o4zeb9m

http://tinyurl.com/nrq4tl4

I was getting to them.. unstuck and will said slow down lol
306069306070

Commer TS3

"The engine was unusual in being an opposed piston engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed_piston_engine) where each horizontal cylinder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_%28engine%29) contains two pistons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston), one at each end, that move in opposition to each other.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-TS3-5) Even more unusually, both sets of pistons drove only a single crankshaft; most opposed piston engines have a separate crankshaft at each end of the cylinder. The TS3 engine used a single crankshaft beneath the cylinders, each piston driving it through a connecting rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecting_rod), a rocker lever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever) and a second connecting rod. The crankshaft had six crankpins and there were six rockers.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Modern_High-Speed_Oil_Engines.2C_Commer_TS3-6)
The engine was a two-stroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine), compression-ignition diesel engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) with uniflow-ported (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniflow_diesel_engine) cylinders.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Modern_High-Speed_Oil_Engines.2C_Commer_TS3-6) Scavenging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scavenging_%28automotive%29) was performed by a Roots blower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_blower).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3#cite_note-Roots_naming-7) and was mounted on the front of the engine and driven by a long quill shaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quill_drive) from a chain drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_drive) at the rear of the engine. Although the engines gained a reputation for good performance, this quill shaft was somewhat prone to breaking if over-worked."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commer_TS3

Dads got on in the back yard, it has some patents on either the block or the supercharger relating to Kadencey as in Michel Kadenacy

Below Honda EXP2 fuel injected but created autoignition to clean up exhausts it used a trapping valve

[WilDun]

Must say the thread has got off to a great start, hope it keeps up the momentum!

SABLE,
Regarding the Commer TS3,

http://www.sa.hillman.org.au/TS3.htm

I remember those well from when I was a kid! - they were noisy as hell going up hills with a heavy load aboard. Some of the guys who drove them found that you could disconnect the governor mechanism and they wound them up to some pretty amazing speeds! However a lot of them developed quite a rattle as the bearings in the rocker assemblies wore out, no doubt brought on by the rough treatment dished out!

Seems that they were also very economical on fuel (diesel in this case) - not something that can be said for your average two stroke, so some people also fitted them in boats and I believe they performed well in that role.

I finally managed to cadge a ride in one (ie Commer truck) when I was about 16, it was probably a 100 mile journey - I found it to be an unbelievably smooth running engine and surprisingly, not really noisy in the cab.

[WilDun]

The Hooper Favill engine seemed to have quite a lot of promise and it really interested me when it first came out, but I guess two strokes were not being looked on favourably at that time, so it virtually disappeared from the scene.

Thanks for all those pics and articles on it - much better than all the grotty yellowing examples I have in my old scrapbook.

[Flettner]

As to the uniflow engine, if you imagine two split single engines head to head, one of them turned 180 degrees. So one cylinder fills to to bottom while the other cylinder fills bottom to top, simple. Makes for a clean cylinder fill every cycle, the next version on from this engine ( A 440cc ) can be seen running in a jet boat, video on youtube. Many hours of running at full load, this video taken on the first and second time it was ever run under load ( in the water ) first in the Waikato river to see that it would in fact run under load and later in the video the boat is at a lake ( back of Huntly ) the very next day. So you don't get to see full throttle until near the end of the video.
http://youtu.be/uiXsPkP9jvw

[Flettner]

Regarding the TS3 Commer noise.
Some years ago I worked for Meat Industry Research at Ruakura. We needed a large volume air displacer that would pull a reasonable vacuum ( to suck sheep brains out, I kid you not! ), I found an old Wade super charger off a TS3 that we decided would do the job for our prototype test machine. I coupled the super charger up to a five horse electric motor. The moment it was switched on, instantly came back that sound of the Coca-cola Commer delivery trucks I used to hear grinding up the road to our school. That noise you hear from the commer exhaust is the pulses generated by the supercharger with it's high bypass air flow to purge the cylinders when both inlet and exhaust ports were open. Well I thought it was interesting any way.

[husaberg]

The Hooper Favill engine seemed to have quite a lot of promise and it really interested me when it first came out, but I guess two strokes were not being looked on favourably at that time, so it virtually disappeared from the scene.

Thanks for all those pics and articles on it - much better than all the grotty yellowing examples I have in my old scrapbook.

this is one that could have, should have, would have,,,,, but true to the Brit bike industry???

The stepped piston 2T engine developed by Bernard Hooper for Norton, The Wulf 500, of which, one was made!!


This was from the links associated with it.
BERNARD HOOPER ENGINEERING LTD
http://users.breathe.com/prhooper/mcycle.htm



STEPPED PISTON MOTORCYCLE ENGINE DEVELOPMENT

The original motorcycle engine projects centred on the twin cylinder Wulf and Wulf II engines, however a recent project aimed at providing reduced environmental impact for a motorcycle application has been under consideration. This has led to the following single cylinder stepped piston motorcycle engine project.
306081
The primary objective of this project has involved a demonstration of the low oil consumption characteristics of the stepped piston engine. The support enabled the design and build of a single cylinder 150 cm3 SP engine and this is shown above as a modification to an existing motorcycle crankcase and gearbox assembly. The original 125 cm3 crankcase scavenged "base" engine can be seen below.

306079
Original Engine used for project basis

Results from the project are very encouraging even at this early stage of development. Many conventional crankcase scavenged engines operate at an equivalent fuel:oil ratio of 50:1 at full throttle. Operation below this level often causes catastrophic engine failure. The stepped piston engine operates on neat fuel with lubricant supplied from the sump as per four stroke engine practise. If we consider the total fuel consumption as a ratio against the total measured oil consumption then data for comparison with conventional crankcase scavenged two stroke engines can be generated. The stepped piston engine has so far been demonstrated to run at levels approaching 200:1 at full load or in other words a 75% reduction in oil consumption against typical precision oil feed pump metered two stroke engines. The following bar charts show some of the results from the motorcycle engine project.
306080

SP150cs Engine oil consumption at simulated Road Load conditions
306082
The results above were recorded for top gear Road Load conditions. Data is presented at simulated 30mph (48km/h) and 50mph (80 km/h) riding conditions. The chart below shows a comparison of our target oil consumption at full load 7500 RPM operating conditions against the measured consumption of the precision metered conventional engine

original patent pic for the wulf

[WilDun]

Regarding the TS3 Commer noise.
That noise you hear from the commer exhaust is the pulses generated by the supercharger with it's high bypass air flow to purge the cylinders when both inlet and exhaust ports were open. Well I thought it was interesting any way.

Ah, so it wasn't exhaust noise! We live and learn, sometimes I wish I could hear it again, I used to love that noise (in the distance) - second only to a Manx Norton -which smelt better of course!

(Sometimes,the noise alone could have driven your brains out! :laugh:).)

[husaberg]

More stuff I had posted before on ESE...Re the SPX WULF

[pete376403]

TS3 to the max - Napier Deltic. Designed for motor torpedo boats, also used in Brit Rail locos.

Also - Rootes were going to build a TS4, the prototypes were very successful. But then Rootes was taken over by Chrysler and management decreed that trucks had to use Cummins engines, development on the TS4 was stopped, even though it was superior to the Cummins.

[husaberg]

TS3 to the max - Napier Deltic. Designed for motor torpedo boats, also used in Brit Rail locos.

Also - Rootes were going to build a TS4, the prototypes were very successful. But then Rootes was taken over by Chrysler and management decreed that trucks had to use Cummins engines, development on the TS4 was stopped, even though it was superior to the Cummins.

nice
one screaming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzmz3ZqQIS8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3bj47TAYiU

different

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZB0Go3Kj-k

[unstuck]

Managed to find a pic of the TS4 that was on low gear, I am sure the dude with Bill hohepa got 2 of the remaining 4 and brought them back to NZ.:Punk::Punk:

[WilDun]

And then there was the Deltic's predecessor, the Napier Lion, also a very successful engine, it was a triple bank 12 cylinder aircraft/torpedo boat/car engine!!!
Also I believe that Moto Guzzi also experimented with a similar but 3 cylinder with the same layout.
306118306119306120306121306122

The Guzzi is here,
http://thekneeslider.com/images/2009/08/moto-guzzi-w103.jpg

[unstuck]

Has that yo mobile ever been built and used? I could imagine the Black Power wanting to get their hands on one.:laugh:

[Kickaha]

http://www.pivotalengine.com/
http://www.pivotalengine.com/flashversion.html.
http://bioage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/pivotal_1.png

[WilDun]

306150306151306152306153

And you thought your 650cc single was big!

Single cylinder two stroke diesel Field Marshal tractor (post war from 1945 on) - with cartridge start if necessary. Used a lot through the fifties, - note the huge external flywheel and expansion chamber exhaust.
They shook like 40 B**t**ds - none of your cissy balance shafts in those days mate, ie. when men were men! (read blurred vision, blurred brains,deafness, arthritic joints, - probably why it's hard to talk sense to a lot of old guys! :laugh:

[XF650]

306150306151306152306153

And you thought your 650cc single was big!

Single cylinder two stroke diesel Field Marshal tractor (post war from 1945 on) - with cartridge start if necessary. Used a lot through the fifties, - note the huge external flywheel and expansion chamber exhaust.
They shook like 40 B**t**ds - none of your cissy balance shafts in those days mate, ie. when men were men! (read blurred vision, blurred brains,deafness, arthritic joints, - probably why it's hard to talk sense to a lot of old guys! :laugh:

My door stop could be handy for one of those:

[WilDun]

My door stop could be handy for one of those:

That's pure sacrilege! - All CI I bet? - Could I have it for my next project? If you dug the concrete and rust from around the rings & grooves and with a bit of CRC, it might be a goer! - failing that,I could use it for material for my lathe. :yes:
Seriously, I can see it's for a two stroke, but what two stroke?

[XF650]

That's pure sacrilege! - All CI I bet? - Could I have it for my next project? If you dug the concrete and rust from around the rings & grooves and with a bit of CRC, it might be a goer! - failing that,I could use it for material for my lathe. :yes:
Seriously, I can see it's for a two stroke, but what two stroke?

Found it under some trees on in-laws farm & its bloody heavy - probably out of a Lanz Bulldog.

[unstuck]

probably out of a Lanz Bulldog.

Hot bulb engine?

[WilDun]

Yes, I think the Poms pinched the Lanz Bulldog design at the end of the war and modified it into the Field Marshal, but then they turned it into an injected diesel and consequently didn't use the deflector piston anymore because of the higher compression required (they probably used the Schneurle scavenging system with a flat top or domed piston). Well that's what I was told a long time ago but who knows!
Very hard to find any info on these engines - somebody here might know where to find it.

EDIT.
It appears that Field Marshall had acquired a couple of Lanz Bulldogs in the late twenties to study and it was then that they decided to build a diesel engined 'lookalike' of the very popular Lanz, this early diesel went into production around 1930, - so really nothing to do with the war!

[unstuck]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5yeTi11Sh_M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>..................

[husaberg]

Angus Cuddon-Fletcher
I can't find the engine he did with a water cooled rotary valve, that I am I am looking for to post. But he was sure prolific with some of his other ideas.


Angus Humphrey Cuddon-Fletcher (GB)
3 Jul 1909 - 1973/74?Born in Dunans, Argyll, Cuddon-Fletcher was a designer engineer. Among other things he worked on a rotary engine, which he sadly failed to patent. He took part in racing before the Second World War, racing MGs at Donington, Crystal Palace & Brooklands. There was at some stage a kind of partnership with Reg Parnell. He emigrated to the United States in December 1965 and remained in the field of (Marine) engineering. Died in in Wisconsin in the 1970s.
(Info supplied by Susan Cuddon-Fletcher)

[husaberg]

Ferrari trialled them for f1 Mazda used them on a production diesel, Yet I have never heard of them.
Comprex Pressure Wave Supercharger or
Pressure wave supercharger

306170306182
Comprex Pressure Wave Supercharger consists of a synchronized belt-driven, cell-type compressor wheel (1), fed on one side by an ambient intake duct (2), and discharging compressed air into the intake manifold (3). On the exhaust side, the high-pressure exhaust from the exhaust manifold feeds through the duct (4), and is expelled-at lower pressures-into the tailpipe (5).
Sometime back when I was perusing the Bosch Automotive bible looking up compressor maps for positive displacement superchargers, I came upon the rather odd image below. It's called a Comprex, something like a hybrid mutant of a turbo and a supercharger, but better than both-at least in theory.
While not a new invention, we don't really see much of the Comprex, since it's mainly used in large marine and earth-moving diesel engines and, in some cases, smaller passenger car applications. But my interest was piqued by the fact that the Ferrari Formula One team played with a Comprex on their early-80s turbo cars, with better results than conventional turbocharging.
Officially called the Pressure Wave Supercharger, a Comprex is basically a stationary drum casing with a lost-wax cast straight-vane rotor spinning inside the drum, creating boost. Think of it as a wide water wheel inside a drum.
Like a turbo, the casing and rotor aren't in contact, but the clearance between the two is kept to a minimum (barring thermal expansion and creep) to prevent boost leakage. The synchronized belt-driven rotor is powered by the crank, moving around four to five times faster than the engine, but only drawing enough to overcome the frictional losses of the assembly. This means the Comprex doesn't suck power away from the engine to do the work of compression. The compression is done by the exhaust gases like a turbo, which is essentially free energy.
So if you're not using the engine to compress air like a supercharger and not driving the rotating assembly with exhaust gases like a turbo, what is doing the compressing? This is where the 'pressure wave' portion of the name comes in. Incoming ambient air is compressed by using the pressure wave from the exhaust gas.

306171
The production Comprex unit used on the 2.0-liter diesel Mazda 626 Capella.


Each end of the drum has two different-sized ports, connected by ducts for air or exhaust gas to enter and exit. On one side of the drum, air enters from the intake at near-ambient pressure and exits at boost pressure to the intake manifold, while on the other side, exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold enters at high pressure and exits to the tailpipe at lower pressures. How compression is done is the hard part to explain.
The process starts as a given channel on the rotor already filled with ambient intake air (I'll tell you how it's filled later). Neither end of this channel is lined up with a port, so it's completely sealed off by each end of the drum. As the drum rotates, the port on the right side, a smaller high-pressure exhaust orifice, is exposed first to let in the just-combusted gases, which introduces a compression or shock wave into the channel. The shock wave propagates at the localized speed of sound and pushes fresh air against the left wall of the drum, which is still closed and thus compressing the charge. These compression waves are not on account of the individual pulses of each cylinder firing, just the rapid introduction of two gases at different pressures.
As the charge compresses, it makes space, allowing the exhaust gas to enter the channel. Since the shock wave is traveling so fast, the two gases never mix. By this point, the channel has rotated to the high-pressure air port leading to the intake manifold. Although rated for the same mass flow rate, the smaller port is sized so that the compressed air exits at a much lower velocity. This deceleration of the compressed air causes a secondary shock wave to propagate toward the right (or exhaust) side, which compresses the fresh air further. This way, the boosted air going into the engine is actually at a higher pressure than the exhaust gases.
As this secondary compression wave reaches the right side of the drum, the high-pressure gas port closes, causing the compression wave to reflect back as an expansion wave, pushing most of the compressed air out and closing that port. By now, the low-pressure exhaust port on the right is exposed, letting the now slightly pressurized exhaust out into the tailpipe. This causes another series of expansion and compression waves that ultimately help pull in and completely fill the channel with fresh air, which brings us back to step one.

306169

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTjKJXrVbOw

The Comprex blower combines the best of both worlds. The Comprex is both exhaust gas and belt driven. It uses the belt off the crank to keep boost constant and uses the hot exhaust gas to spin the vanes inside the blower, while drawing in cold outside air. Unlike a turbo though, it reuses the exhaust gas, some of it at least. So if you run the engine nice and rich, you can reburn the unspent fuel after it has been compressed: "Because the Comprex vanes only act to distribute gases, not push them, power is only needed to overcome friction of the rotating parts. Now, take a model piston engine. Let it spin a small Comprex blower which blows into a ramjet-type combustor. There you have a simple hybrid jet engine that would work at very low and very high air speeds relatively happily. You would just have to juggle the engine/blower/combustor dimensions carefully so that the engine is just big enough to do its job, and does not produce surplus shaft power. There's more. Bleed some of the compressed air back to the piston engine to boost its power, so that you can use a small engine to turn a relatively big blower. (Comprex can spin at very high speeds as its vanes are of small diameter.) Properly, you should run the engine as rich as it will take. After it has done the job of compressing air, exhaust gas is ejected into the ramjet/combustor, where it mixes with fresh air coming from the compressor. As it is still rich with unburned fuel, it only combusts properly in the ramjet. Fuel is injected into the combustor just to top the mixture up so to say. This way, because of recirculation, you also get a relatively clean exhaust. Sounds complex, but need not be complex in practice. Similar hybrids have worked really well in the past. Perhaps the most complex in history was the 12-cylinder 2-stroke (!) supercharged aircraft diesel (!) engine built by Napier in the (I think) early 60s. It burned super-rich mixture and blew its exhaust gas into combustors of a small turboshaft. More fuel was injected here and the resulting hot gas drove a turbine, which turned an axial compressor, which blew both into the 12-cylinder piston engine and into the combustors of the turboshaft. The two output shafts (of the piston engine and the turboshaft) were geared together to turn a single output shaft, which turned the aircraft propeller. It sounds incredibly complex but worked very well indeed and was a very fuel-efficient engine by the standards of the times. Keith Duckworth, the constructor of the most successful car racing engine of all times, the Cosworth V8, proposed the same layout for Formula 1 back in the days of turbocharged F1 engines. He said it was the most logical extension of the turbocharged piston engine
306173

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_wave_supercharger

[unstuck]

double dutch

Gonna have to get my bro to translate that one for me. :wacko:

[husaberg]

Gonna have to get my bro to translate that one for me. :wacko:
Does he share genetics with you?

The thing spins to allow the vanes to line up with ports that allow the exhaust gas to leave, and fresh air to be drawn in. There is no turbine (like on a turbo), and the compression isn't being driven by the belt/pulley (as on a supercharger)...the rotor is not spun to generate compression, it's spun to allow fresh air to enter the vanes, and exhaust gas to exit. It's acting more as a "gatekeeper" than anything.

In other words, the thing wouldn't work at all, at any speed, without the belt driving it, but the amount of work the belt does is minimal (just frictional losses).
cake and eat it too, Only issue is the intermingling of ex and fresh charge which is why its better on a diesel........
306177


This Comprex or Pressure-Wave Supercharger is a very simple device in comparison to a turbo or roots-type blower. Having very few parts the Comprex consists of a cylindrical chamber which contains a belt-driven bladed ‘wheel’ and two ports offset from one another on each end. Through those ports ambient air enters and exits on one side and hot exhaust gases enter and exit on the other side. Though it’s construction is very basic, understanding how a pressure-wave supercharger works may not be as simple for some. The single most confusing aspect of this is that physically there is nothing that separates the intake air from the exhaust once inside the compressor, yet only very small amounts of exhaust gases ever return to the cylinder. To better understand how this process works here is a step by step.

First air is drawn into the cylinder like any other internal combustion engine by the downward movement of the piston, and with the Comprex in it’s path the air naturally must pass through it first. Inside the compressor air is turned and the blades are moved past the ports on either end of the chamber. When hot exhaust gases enter the chamber it is at a much higher pressure than that of the air that is already in the Comprex which in turn starts a pressure equalization process. When two compressible mediums change state they change by means of pressure waves. So when each blade passes by the exhaust inlet port air enters that cell (the area between each of the blades) and send a pressure wave towards the intake air at the speed of sound. Now for the tricky part. Since the wheel is turning perpendicular to the movement of the pressure waves and with the help of physics the waves then move in a slanting motion towards the other end of cell, compressing the intake air (which is at atmospheric pressure) to the pressure level of the expanding exhaust gases. The exhaust gas then follows the pressure wave at a much lower velocity. The ports are designed with the timing and speed of the pressure waves factored in so that the wave reaches the intake side at the exact instant the blade passes the leading edge of the outlet or “charge port” leading to the combustion chamber.

Due to the timing of the first pressure wave and the escaping charged intake air a second pressure wave is created which then flows back towards the exhaust side. This compresses the air within the cell again while also slowing it down. By the time the second wave reaches the other side the exhaust port has been passed and the air then has nowhere to go. At this point the charge air port is still open, and because of inertia the exhaust gases are still flowing towards the intake side regardless of the counter pressure wave. Because of this a new element enters the equation: expansion waves. An expansion wave is formed and slows the cell contents down considerably, decreasing pressure in that cell.

Once the wheel has come around to the exhaust exit port yet another expansion wave is created due to the now different pressures inside and outside of the cell. The wave flows towards the intake side, lowering the cell’s pressure and accelerating the air out of the cell and into the exhaust system. This final wave is strong enough to fully evacuate the cell and draw in enough air to completely fill that cell with fresh air. Then, of course, the process repeats. This complete process happens twice per revolution of the wheel and only takes place over the span of three to six milliseconds. However if certain conditions aren’t met and the timing of this process is not tuned perfectly the pressure waves will deteriorate rapidly. Never the less this idea of forced induction could possibly find it’s way under the hoods of production cars one day. Not only is it a very light draw on the engine itself, but NOx gases are partially re-circulated and used to create more energy for the engine. Now if somebody could just apply this technology to performance cars…



This compressor uses exhaust pulses to compress the
intake air, but has a belt driven rotor that must be
timed to the engine. Intake air goes in than the
intake is sealed, then the exhaust side is opened
and exhaust gasses enter the same cavity as the
fresh intake charge compressing it. Then the intake
opens and the compressed intake exits toward the
engine, the intake port is then closed off before the
exhaust has a chance to get in the intake.

306181306182

[unstuck]

Does he share genetics with you?



Yeah, but he speaks dutch, and that video sounded dutch to me.:blink:

[husaberg]

Yeah, but he speaks dutch, and that video sounded dutch to me.:blink:

I'd plum for German as its Swiss it think?
the pics are all in English though

[unstuck]

I'd plum for German as its Swiss it think?
the pics are all in English though

Dunno, but I'd like to be able to understand what the dude was saying. Im funny like that.:msn-wink:

[WilDun]

I'd plum for German as its Swiss it think?
the pics are all in English though

Doesn't matter - we don't understand it anyway whatever it is! and I for one still don't even understand the concept :rolleyes: (probably Swiss German)

[unstuck]

and I for one still don't even understand the concept

I think I kinda do, but seems to me that the air going in could potentially get slightly heated. But then I could have it completely wrong too.:yes:

[WilDun]

Back to bikes, - then there was the 1939 Velocette 500cc contra-rotating twin, with a fore & aft crankshafts, which they nicknamed the 'Roarer'.
It had a lot of potential, but this was cut short when the war broke out. :-

306189

http://velocette-amateur.com/roarer_engine_en.htm

[husaberg]

I think I kinda do, but seems to me that the air going in could potentially get slightly heated. But then I could have it completely wrong too.:yes:

All air that is compressed is heated anyway.
The design Its bloody simple yet fiendishly clever.

Will the Roarer.
I will add a bit more later.
Ivan Rhodes stayed at our place when he came to NZ when I was about 18. His family restored it. He was a bit of a toff.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302780&d=1411967639
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302779&d=1411967637
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302778&d=1411967635
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302777&d=1411967633
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302776&d=1411967631
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302775&d=1411967628
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302774&d=1411967626
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302773&d=1411967624
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302772&d=1411967622
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=302771&d=1411967619

[WilDun]

All air that is compressed is heated anyway.
The design Its bloody simple yet fiendishly clever.

He was a bit of a toff.



The 'Roarer' project seems to have been well publicised as there is a lot of info still available on it. Haven't the vintage boys resurrected and run it? I thought I saw somewhere that they had, but I may be getting confused with the AJS 'Porcupine'.

A toff on a bike? - really old boy, a "toff"? what an absolutely preposterous thing to say! :laugh:

[unstuck]

All air that is compressed is heated anyway.


Does that not make it less effective for producing power? :wait:

[unstuck]

Not really that oddball or unusual, but I love hit and miss engines.
Just finished helping a fella rebuild an old International 10hp hit and miss engine, and now I want to have a go at building one of these.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0mgjPH3B5KE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

[husaberg]

Does that not make it less effective for producing power? :wait:

Yes but as I said, As air is compressed it is heated anyway,That's what intercoolers are for.

[unstuck]

That's what intercoolers are for.

I must have missed that bit.:o
But maybe it was in dutch/swiss/german.:2thumbsup

[husaberg]

The 'Roarer' project seems to have been well publicised as there is a lot of info still available on it. Haven't the vintage boys resurrected and run it? I thought I saw somewhere that they had, but I may be getting confused with the AJS 'Porcupine'.

A toff on a bike? - really old boy, a "toff"? what an absolutely preposterous thing to say! :laugh:

Team obsolete Rob Ianuncci did the Porc, I think Sammy Miller might have one too although it might have just been the V4 AJS
There is video of the Roarer at the Goodwood festival when Sheene raced their.
Classic bike and racer ran quite a bit on the Roarer and fund raised for it.
Ivan Rhodes is a major Velocette Guru from may back.
I guess the toff but was a observation on English the class era he was brought up in, he was a nice guy.
From memory he was a engineer who earned his living making ultrasonic cleaners for jewellery and cutlery.

Anyway here is a Roarer Stuff from Classic racer most would have come from the stuff I linked earlier.

[Grumph]

Team obsolete Rob Ianuncci did the Porc, I think Sammy Miller might have one too although it might have just been the V4 AJS
There is video of the Roarer at the Goodwood festival when Sheene raced their.
Classic bike and racer ran quite a bit on the Roarer and fund raised for it.
Ivan Rhodes is a major Velocette Guru from may back.
I guess the toff but was a observation on English the class era he was brought up in, he was a nice guy.
From memory he was a engineer who earned his living making ultrasonic cleaners for jewellery and cutlery.

Anyway here is a Roarer Stuff from Classic racer most would have come from the stuff I linked earlier.

What would have made you think Ivan is a toff would have been the collar and tie....
He's a very nice guy and very approachable. i was disappointed in the Roarer when it was out here - sounded just like a bloody Triumph twin...
The blown V4 AJS though - smallblock Chevy on straight pipes....very nice.
If I ever run into Paul McLauchlan again i must ask if there's any info in the public domain on the weird 2 stroke he was developing for Mace engineering in ChCh. i was one of the few to see it I think. Mace saw how much money Ricky Main had made floating his engine company and Paul turned up at the right time...Money ran out I think.
Edit - Kickaha has posted the Paul McLauchlan motor as Pivotal engine. I'd never seen the finished internet bumf production which was done to interest investors but obviously failed to gather in enough money...

[husaberg]

What would have made you think Ivan is a toff would have been the collar and tie....
He's a very nice guy and very approachable. i was disappointed in the Roarer when it was out here - sounded just like a bloody Triumph twin...
The blown V4 AJS though - smallblock Chevy on straight pipes....very nice.
If I ever run into Paul McLauchlan again i must ask if there's any info in the public domain on the weird 2 stroke he was developing for Mace engineering in ChCh. i was one of the few to see it I think. Mace saw how much money Ricky Main had made floating his engine company and Paul turned up at the right time...Money ran out I think.

nah I think it was because he wanted to watch Coronation Street rather than Eastenders

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amueRftsOYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTwSjBEcT9I

[unstuck]

Now this is a different looking engine.:scratch:

306228

a 1702 CI X-24 made out of metal stampings.

Taylor Engines, Inc., Oakland, California submitted a proposal on May12th 1942 to build such an engine to the Navy. It was suggested he build one bank for testing and he did. The contract was never issued but it was the forerunner of what became the 44 CI Crosley CoBra fabricated engine that was contracted by the government for WW-2 and after.

More pictures and details on the Crosley Club web site.

[WilDun]

Now this is a different looking engine.:scratch:

306228

a 1702 CI X-24 made out of metal stampings.

Taylor Engines, Inc., Oakland, California

Looks like it might have been a bit easier to service than the big radials of the day!

[WilDun]

This (to me ) was the ultimate beauty!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0I0ivaMHN4
Other You tube videos there too.

They used a couple of different crank layouts, some sounded like the Aussie V8 cars and some didn't sound quite as good!

[willytheekid]

This (to me ) was the ultimate beauty!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0I0ivaMHN4
Other You tube videos there too.

They used a couple of different crank layouts, some sounded like the Aussie V8 cars and some didn't sound quite as good!

:drool:...there meant to be like a swiss watch to work on (thousands of tiny parts)
What an engine!!...true testament to old school engineering that one :yes:

[unstuck]

This (to me ) was the ultimate beauty!


Other You tube videos there too.

They used a couple of different crank layouts, some sounded like the Aussie V8 cars and some didn't sound quite as good!

Cor blimey, that is nice.:yes:

[husaberg]

Honda cg series ie CG110 CG125 etc...
Not that odd, more quirky way of saving a few dollars, plenty of others used one cam lobe such as the Indian Scout etc.
but not so modern.......

[WilDun]

Back on Post #52,
Been going over the turbocharger thing again and getting to slowly understand it, seems like a good idea cutting out the losses associated with driving a turbine and rotor, still looks like some idea from cuckooland but it obviously is reality, it works and is up and running !

BTW, UNSTUCK
Deutschland is Germany, Nederland is Holland, and the video narrator is probably speaking German (Deutsch) in a Swiss dialect.
But don't quote me! :msn-wink:

[WilDun]

Another scrapbook snippet from around 1963, - haven't heard much about it since!

306256306257

Anybody out there want to try doing a rebore? :msn-wink:

[unstuck]

Another scrapbook snippet from around 1963, - haven't heard much about it since!



Have heard of skirtless roller bearing pistons being used in high speed applications, but know nothing about it really. :scratch:

[WilDun]

Another one I had tucked away - There is virtually no info on this unique engine, at least not on the net anyway. So in order to save it from extinction, I'm trying to make sure it is on the net!
However, this seems to be the only half decent record of it left, at least in the public domain, (haven't checked for a patent yet), but you never know.....306259 306260306261

[unstuck]

Another one I had tucked away - There is virtually no info on this unique engine, at least not on the net anyway. So in order to save it from extinction, I'm trying to make sure it is on the net!
However, this seems to be the only half decent record of it left, at least in the public domain, (haven't checked for a patent yet), but you never know.....

What the..........:blink:

That is some pretty radical thinking for sure.

[Grumph]

Another one I had tucked away - There is virtually no info on this unique engine, at least not on the net anyway. So in order to save it from extinction, I'm trying to make sure it is on the net!
However, this seems to be the only half decent record of it left, at least in the public domain, (haven't checked for a patent yet), but you never know.....

The Wardill is in Irving's Two Stroke Power Units - which is probably out of print. My copy seems to be the first edition dated 1967 - no idea if it was ever reprinted.
quoting old Phil..."There is probably no possible combination of piston,crankshaft or valve arrangement which has been overlooked, a rather sobering thought for any budding inventors"...
For more odd two strokes he recommends C F Caunter's The Two-Cycle Engine - also probably long out of print.

[WilDun]

Glad to hear that there is some stuff on it still around.
There are a few sites around which sell online copies of old long forgotten books and a while ago I downloaded one (from around WW1 up to near WW2) on two strokes - all deflector piston types. Unfortunately I'm still trying to locate it, I haven't found it - but I will!

I'm not really into collecting (as a collector) to be honest, I only collect the stuff I'm interested in at the time. However,the time has come to share what I do have before those who consider it junk consign it to the tip. While I've still got breath in my body, it won't be going there!
Being a fitter & turner type I have tended to collect more than my fair share of junk over the years :laugh:

[Flettner]

WilDun, you be careful, when we had to clean up my dad's place we sent 100 ton of steel off the property. He was a bit of a buldozer collector. We gave away as much as we could ( to the right people ) but still ended up with 40 ton of to scrap. I kept one of the little Cat D2's here, start it ( petrol starter engine ) up from time to time and just drive it around the back yard.
I came home from that exercise and disposed of all my projects exccept the few I thought I might finish.

[sidecar bob]

Another scrapbook snippet from around 1963, - haven't heard much about it since!

306256306257

Anybody out there want to try doing a rebore? :msn-wink:

The Wabco suspension compressor in the boot of a X5 BMW has a piston Conrod assembly like that.
They suffer from massive bore wear just below tdc where the piston rocks, even just as an air compressor.
It would have been an epic fail as a combustion engine.

[husaberg]

The Wardill is in Irving's Two Stroke Power Units - which is probably out of print. My copy seems to be the first edition dated 1967 - no idea if it was ever reprinted.
quoting old Phil..."There is probably no possible combination of piston,crankshaft or valve arrangement which has been overlooked, a rather sobering thought for any budding inventors"...
For more odd two strokes he recommends C F Caunter's The Two-Cycle Engine - also probably long out of print.

Also....
The Wardill engine gets a guernsey in both the Third and Fourth editions of "Two-Stroke Motor Cycles" printed by Iliffe & Sons. The Fourth edition also includes a good cross section drawing of the engine.
http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=477.0


Wardill was a motorcycle produced between 1927 and 1928
• A attempt was made to adopt a separate pumping cylinder, instead of relying upon crankcase compression to perform the function. A pumping cylinder was formed around, and concentric with, the working cylinder, the pumping piston having an annular form, with the working piston and its cylinder passing through the centre. The working piston fastened to a connecting rod driven from the crankshaft, as in standard practice, but the pumping piston was was supported by two rods, each eccentrically mounted from the main shafts either side of the big-end throw. This arrangement was neat and compact, and the engine performed well under racing conditions. The complete machine, on sale in 1927, had a 346cc engine, chain drive and an Albion three-speed gearbox.


http://cybermotorcycle.com/euro/wikig/Wardill-and-Sons.html

[Mental Trousers]

Unfortunately the link on that page is dead. Shame.

[husaberg]

Unfortunately the link on that page is dead. Shame.

But if I only knew an forum administrator who could trace dead links;)

[unstuck]

WilDun, you be careful, when we had to clean up my dad's place we sent 100 ton of steel off the property. He was a bit of a buldozer collector. We gave away as much as we could ( to the right people ) but still ended up with 40 ton of to scrap. I kept one of the little Cat D2's here, start it ( petrol starter engine ) up from time to time and just drive it around the back yard.
I came home from that exercise and disposed of all my projects exccept the few I thought I might finish.

Is it a narrow gauge one? I sold one a few years ago and it went that way somewhere.

[WilDun]

Great to see all this stuff coming up here which would not have otherwise been known about! - this thread seems to be a great outlet for all things combustible (internal mostly).
Seems most of us are interested in all sorts of engines and machinery which is great! - This whole forum (Kiwi Biker) is really very good I must say.

HUSA, & GRUMPH - Glad you have all that extra stuff on the Wardill, I tried other places and the info was very scarce indeed - at least it's on the net now!

FLETTNER, - Doing laps on your little CAT could do nicely as a substitute for the Kawa when you get older! - you could use it to test your experimental engines on! (starter motors)

I've decided that things need to be leaving my (super saturated) garage now instead of building up. - (anyone want a Honda Gyro? - you know, the little 50cc three wheel scooter which allows you to lean)?
My original plan was to use it as a substitute for a bike, as I just can't afford to fall off anymore, but I would have to ride it on the footpaths as a mobility scooter, or in traffic which isn't ideal! - Unfortunately it's just taking up space now.

[sidecar bob]

Is the Gyro the model with the roof & windscreen with wiper?

[WilDun]

The Wabco suspension compressor in the boot of a X5 BMW has a piston Conrod assembly like that.
They suffer from massive bore wear just below tdc where the piston rocks, even just as an air compressor.
It would have been an epic fail as a combustion engine.

Yeah, I had misgivings about how good that thing would have turned out! I'd say that the transition from one ring to another (as I see it) would have been akin to using a scraper on the bore, - looks good though!

[WilDun]

Is the Gyro the model with the roof & windscreen with wiper?

Yes, windscreen with wiper etc. but no roof,( earlier uglier model ) not sure what year but had been used on a golf course for years without the fairing etc. on it. - they are all the same basically but later ones have different front suspension, some models have teleforks, early ones leading link, the newer ones use trailing link (as in most scooters) and have 'prettier' plastics changes.

[WilDun]

Don't want to get too far away from the original theme of the thread, but worth a look here:-

http://www.ridesonfire.com/movie-1/honda_gyro/corner-no1A-qCrjWPolLcQ.htm

Not that I ever wanted to race it of course, but looks like fun - note the ordinary three wheelers don't get around as quick as the Gyro, even with it's narrow track!

[unstuck]

Wonder if I could turn my trimoto into one of them, be good for a giggle.:laugh:

[Flettner]

Is it a narrow gauge one? I sold one a few years ago and it went that way somewhere.

I believe it is a narrow gauge, dad had owned this tractor since about 1995 I think, did it all up as new, paint, stickers and everything. I thought it came from Feilding way.

[unstuck]

I believe it is a narrow gauge, dad had owned this tractor since about 1995 I think, did it all up as new, paint, stickers and everything. I thought it came from Feilding way.

Cool.:niceone:
Sold mine about 05 06 I think, so not the same one. Rejuvenated a D4 after that went, it had been sitting out in the rain for 13 yrs with nothing covering the exhaust so I had to smash the pistons out with a big hammer and resleeve it. But got it running fine and used it for a year before moving it on and getting a TD6 and Td9 to play with.:Punk:

[husaberg]

I was getting to them.. unstuck and will said slow down lol



Dads got on in the back yard, it has some patents on either the block or the supercharger relating to Kadencey as in Michel Kadenacy



I was talking to my father last night, Correction re Commer engines dad has about 5 of them now.
Next time I am around there I will take a few piccies, he said a few are in bits I would be interested to see the insides of it.

[WilDun]

I was talking to my father last night, Correction re Commer engines dad has about 5 of them now.

That'll be good to see, I've never seen the internals of one of those. I was thinking that they couldn't all have disappeared and there must be quite a few scattered around the country, at least we now know where 5 of them are!

I have read that a TS3 engine was used in England in the development of a super economical engine - not sure of the results but I do have the article on it somewhere and I'll try and dig it up later.

[WilDun]

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/289/1679/Motorcycle-Article/Memorable-Motorcycles-Norton-Kneeler.aspx

Although this is an American site, they seem to have the best info on this machine. It had a relatively conventional Norton 350 Manx engine, yet managed 146mph in 1953!
I can actually remember it's first race at the NW200 - Went like the clappers but ended up parked up someone's driveway half way round the circuit, after it overheated and stopped on the second lap!

We called it the "Eggshell Norton", aptly named maybe but everyone was waiting to see it. It did have some real potential, or at least would have had if they had been allowed clutch starts in those days! - can you imagine trying to bump start that thing off the grid, then trying to clamber aboard!
306360306361306362

[husaberg]

Have you seen this.
Rudi Kurth designed
It used a Cresent outboard engine.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291518&d=1388178305
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291516&d=1388178129
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[Ribit]

Heres a MODERN oddball motorcycle

A 1400cc parallel twin 4 conrod twin counter-rotating cranksaft turbo diesel motorbike made by Neander motors

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL0QyScysQk

One write up i read said it works well if somewhat noisy typical of a diesel motor
It can run on just about any light oil like the diesel motor was originally designed to do.

[Ribit]

I think this guy Wolfhart mustve been smoking some strong sh!t when he envisaged this one.
Not a motorbike engine but very odd'BALL'


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http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wolfhart_Engine

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qjVaixYy08

[WilDun]

I think this guy Wolfhart mustve been smoking some strong sh!t when he envisaged this one.


Maybe it'll get nowhere in this form but the principle is very interesting just the same!

For someone to get it to this stage they wouldn't have been smoking at all, ie judging by the state of some of the apprentices I (tried) to instruct - they were smoking, but in their state, they certainly could not have thought up anything like that, useful or not! - all they could ever do was wreck machinery! :mad:

[WilDun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19kn3drdFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AbwCbBdVPg

Quite surprised this one hasn't come up yet!
The Duke engine is well into it's development now and this has been happening right on my doorstep here in Auckland just a few miles (Kms ?) from where I live.

It seems to be a modern development of the 'axial piston wobble plate' engine used by Bristol Tramways between the wars and with modern metallurgy, it should meet with a lot more success.

It is now well advanced and working quite well it seems and I hope that they can break into the automotive or aircraft market (a daunting task).

[unstuck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19kn3drdFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AbwCbBdVPg

Quite surprised this one hasn't come up yet!
The Duke engine is well into it's development now and this has been happening right on my doorstep here in Auckland just a few miles from where I live.

It seems to be a modern development of the 'axial piston wobble plate' engine used by Bristol Tramways between the wars and with modern metallurgy, it should meet with a lot more success.

The development is now well advanced and working quite well and I hope that they can break into the automotive or aircraft market (a daunting task).

That is super cool.:headbang::headbang:

[WilDun]

Then of course, there is the Paut motor! You could say it's action is loosely based on that of the Karol Ansdale engine, pics of which I posted back on about page 2. (post# 18).
I'm not entirely sure that it actually exists as yet, but this is the best animation of an engine I have ever seen, even if it never turns one revolution this is definitely a work of art - well, a virtual work of art anyway! ;)

http://tech.firstpost.com/watch-videos/paut-motor-revolutionary-enginewmv_HFUsnKJtMYQ.html

[pete376403]

Heres a MODERN oddball motorcycle

A 1400cc parallel twin 4 conrod twin counter-rotating cranksaft turbo diesel motorbike made by Neander motors

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL0QyScysQk

One write up i read said it works well if somewhat noisy typical of a diesel motor
It can run on just about any light oil like the diesel motor was originally designed to do.
About the only downside to the design is that the riders will be known as Neanderthals :facepalm:

[WilDun]

This is the Butterworth Valve which really deserves a mention, even though it never went into production, It apparently worked well - definitely leaves a bit more room for the gas to get past.
There may be some other better pictures around.

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[Grumph]

Archie Butterworth is better known for doing a flat four motor for i think his own build sports car. It was around 1500cc I think and may have been tried in a F2 Cooper as well. I've seen reports decribing the valve gear noise as audible above the exhaust...
I'd never seen the bike version.

[Flettner]

This is the Butterworth Valve which really deserves a mention, even though it never went into production, It apparently worked well - definitely leaves a bit more room for the gas to get past.
There may be some other better pictures around.

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Would it be that much better? You really need to tuck the valve head right out of the way.

[husaberg]

Could work better with a torsion bar valve spring ala cb450....still need to be higher cam mabe with switching lobes vetch or conical cams

[Flettner]

Could work better with a torsion bar valve spring ala cb450....still need to be higher cam mabe with switching lobes vetch or conical cams

Looks to me like valve heads for lunch.

Any way, Husa, I've been in the pattern shed tonight brewing up some more patterns ( well finishing off some ) as I have hatched a new plan.

Gyro still not finished but I did fire it up and spun up the rotor head via the new per rotator system. Might try it again tommorw with the actual rotors on :confused:

[husaberg]

Looks to me like valve heads for lunch.

Any way, Husa, I've been in the pattern shed tonight brewing up some more patterns ( well finishing off some ) as I have hatched a new plan.

Gyro still not finished but I did fire it up and spun up the rotor head via the new per rotator system. Might try it again tommorw with the actual rotors on :confused:


reciprocating plan?

[WilDun]

Would it be that much better? You really need to tuck the valve head right out of the way.

Obviously wasn't better (didnt catch on) and I would hate to try lapping in the valves!

[WilDun]

Archie Butterworth is better known for doing a flat four motor I've seen reports decribing the valve gear noise as audible above the exhaust...


Yes I could believe that - I can see it also would have a couple of other problems (like munching valve heads as Flettner says)!
Sounds like he was willing to give things a go, but this one didn't make it I guess.

[husaberg]

A bit off track but Neil will I guess know of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knb3qNq-Uho

[unstuck]

That is one cool little plane.:niceone:

[WilDun]

A bit off track but Neil will I guess know of it.


Yes, really great little plane!
The NZ guy who owns that one (if it is the one I'm thinking of) is/was a 747 pilot, but I think it's either for sale or has been sold recently.

They are very aerobatic and there are quite a few videos on them on the net. (probably from France)

One of them has two tiny turbojets in place of the two stroke engines.
306438



I've really got to get on with my foundry stuff now and have it in full swing by Christmas!

[husaberg]

In its simplest form, the drive utilizes a jointed rhomboid to convert linear work from a reciprocating piston to rotational work. The connecting rod of the piston is rigid as opposed to a common reciprocating engine which directly connects the piston to the crankshaft with a flexible joint in the piston. Instead, the rod connects to one corner of a rhombus. When force is applied to the piston, it pushes down; at the same time, the outer corners of the rhomboid push out. They push on two cranks/flywheels which cause them to rotate, each in opposite directions. As the wheels rotate the rhombus progresses its change of shape from being flattened in the direction of the piston axis at top dead centre to being flattened in the perpendicular direction to the piston axis at bottom dead centre.




A Stirling engine is a heat engine that operates by cyclic compression and expansion of air or other gas (the working fluid) at different temperatures, such that there is a net conversion of heat energy to mechanical work.[1][2] More specifically, the Stirling engine is a closed-cycle regenerative heat engine with a permanently gaseous working fluid. Closed-cycle, in this context, means a thermodynamic system in which the working fluid is permanently contained within the system, and regenerative describes the use of a specific type of internal heat exchanger and thermal store, known as the regenerator. The inclusion of a regenerator differentiates the Stirling engine from other closed cycle hot air engines.

Originally conceived in 1816 as an industrial prime mover to rival the steam engine, its practical use was largely confined to low-power domestic applications for over a century.[3]

The Stirling engine is noted for high efficiency compared to steam engines,[4] quiet operation, and its ability to use almost any heat source. The heat energy source is generated external to the Stirling engine rather than by internal combustion as with the otto cycle or diesel cycle engines. Because the Stirling engine is compatible with alternative and renewable energy sources it could become increasingly significant as the price of conventional fuels rises, and also in light of concerns such as peak oil and climate change. This engine is currently exciting interest as the core component of micro combined heat and power (CHP) units, in which it is more efficient and safer than a comparable steam engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x6ALg198Wk

I remember this from the stuff I posted on the foundry thread, never seen the complete engine though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow_mBbd2jWU

[nodrog]

Hows my 1000cc horizontally oposed bmw boxer 2 stroke coming along?

[husaberg]

Hows my 1000cc horizontally oposed bmw boxer 2 stroke coming along?

The one you specifically want with Plain conrod bearings...........
Remember I are not allowed to post on the sidecar thread. (cause Warwick said I wasn't funny)
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/clutch-gearboxes/auction-819071685.htm

This gearbox is out of a crashed 2004 R1150RT. The oil has been drained and was clean. All the gears are there and everything looks tidy.
It is a 6 speed sports box.
Mileage was about 100k on speedo. (thought they would be faster than that)

306589
Talk to Neil if you want a big bore boxer......

[husaberg]

Ellwood Hybrid – Single Cylinder Reed Valve Intercooled 4 Stroke Engine
306648


All sorts of interesting custom bikes and engine projects are coming out of Sweden all of a sudden, or at least, I'm just coming across them, and John Ellwood thought we might like to see one more, it's his Ellwood Hybrid, a single cylinder, 4 stroke with reed valves, from a 2 stroke, mounted on the crankcase directing the crankcase pressure to charge the intake twice per power stoke. The exhaust stroke pumps the intake once and the reed valve holds the charge, the intake stroke pumps it the second time when it goes into the cylinder, so you have a 2 stroke like pumping action from under the piston and a 4 stroke firing cycle.
306647
John Ellwood, who built this engine, says hybrid engines working on this principle began back in 1915. John got the idea to build one back in 1994 and he's been working on the constantly evolving project ever since.

The first Ellwood Hybrid was based on a Godden engine, commonly found in speedway motorcycles, he's also built one with a Jawa engine. The first one was converted in a pretty straightforward manner, as John describes it:

“
A hacksaw, drill and file were enough to slaughter the speedway engine. A bit of rubber pipe, two reed valves from an RD 350, a seal on the crankcase and a carb from a Rotax converted a relic into a Hybrid.

He has both a 500cc version which he says puts out an estimated 50 hp and a 1300cc version doing somewhere around 150 hp. The 1300 is all handcrafted and it's fuel injected and water cooled with 4 crankcase mounted reed valves, a belt driven rotary cross head valve, an intercooler and 15:1 compression.
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Ellwood Hybrid reed valve locations on crankcaseJohn has been racing the 500cc version and plans to race the 1300 in Supermono racing in the U.K. so it must run pretty well. I just think it's an interesting combination of 2 and 4 stroke technology.

John has done a lot of work without the resources of any expensive engine building facilities. I wonder how this would run if really refined and, with the right equipment, it would be much easier to determine how much extra power this setup actually provides. Definitely different.

John adds: "...here in Sweden we're having a flying kilometer race at the end of March, Bonneville Salt Flats style - only we do it on ice. I've entered the black 500 Hybrid, and will put on the laughing gas tube, to get a bit extra boost." I checked out the ice racing website and got a chuckle, there's a note, "Don't bring any salt."
http://thekneeslider.com/ellwood-hybrid-single-cylinder-reed-valve-intercooled-4-stroke-engine/
http://ellwoodhybrid.webs.com/

[WilDun]

http://www.centralhobbies.com/Engines/SF%2015-10%20YS%20FZ70S.pdf

This type of engine (more or less the same as the fullsize engine above) has been around for quite a while, this is only a tiny model aero engine, but with this cofiguration, it will easily stay with the two stroke model engines and it easily outperforms all the other model four strokes (in its class), in every way!

[husaberg]

Intersting stuff
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=7024.0
http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonOPRE.htm

[WilDun]

Some interesting concepts you've dug up this time Husa, hadn't seen it before.

[husaberg]

Seen plenty in old mags re these never seen one in NZ
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-823714070.htm

[unstuck]

Seen plenty in old mags re these never seen one in NZ
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-823714070.htm

I found one similar last year when looking for one of those for my trips up the coast. I think it was a homemade version of the rokon, but came off more mountain goat.
I passed on the deal and just made a few mods to the trimoto, which does the job for now.

[WilDun]

307821

This thing was actually in production in the early part of the 20th century and used in trucks and fire engines etc. People of the day referred to it as "Gobbling Billy" I think it was British (with a French name) - this must be in Spanish, but I used it anyway because it had the best picture.

http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Opposed-Piston-Opposed-Cylinder.
This seems to be a modern day similar idea, at first when I saw it I thought it wasn't worth looking at, but I guess it has possibilities - don't think it would be much use on a bike though (unless you mounted a wheel at each end and used it for the frame as well) :lol:

[unstuck]

300+hp from one module is pretty neat, put 4 or 5 together you could make a pretty grunty tractor.:Punk::Punk:

[WilDun]

Think this thread needs a good kick up the arse to get it going again! :eek5: - Haven't got my boots on at the moment though.

[Ocean1]

I like these:

http://www.superballmotor.com/

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0CmGJucRDBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/_qjVaixYy08" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

Yes, I have always liked that one, very compact but I guess sealing is a bit of a problem (as it is with most designs which have departed from the old tried and true piston/cylinder/crank engines).

Turbine engines are also well proven, but up till now they have not been suitable for automotive stuff because of "jet lag" in the throttle department.
However with the possibility of coupling them with clever electric motors for transmission, I think that the promise provided by the cleverly designed and sophisticated engines we have been discussing may eventually bite the dust - sad but true!

There's a lot to be said for simplicity, but all the complicated 'oddball' stuff is very interesting just the same!

[Ocean1]

Yes, I have always liked that one, very compact but I guess sealing is a bit of a problem (as it is with most designs which have departed from the old tried and true piston/cylinder/crank engines).

Turbine engines are also well proven, but up till now they have not been suitable for automotive stuff because of "jet lag" in the throttle department.
However with the possibility of coupling them with clever electric motors for transmission, I think that the promise provided by the cleverly designed and sophisticated engines we have been discussing may eventually bite the dust - sad but true!

There's a lot to be said for simplicity, but all the complicated 'oddball' stuff is very interesting just the same!

Aye, too much relative velocity across sealing faces. I do like the in-built 2:1 supercharging though.

Are turbines all that efficient? I know they've made some sizable improvements lately...

[WilDun]

Aye, too much relative velocity across sealing faces. I do like the in-built 2:1 supercharging though.

Are turbines all that efficient? I know they've made some sizable improvements lately...

Well perhaps not, I dunno, but turbines based on common aircraft engines are used in generators for power stations throughout the world, they use fuel which is common, easily obtainable and much lower in price - they certainly won't be bothered by sealing problems!
Coupled to the common electric motor, they've got to be the best way to go. :yes:

That's my guess anyway, but I could be wrong! :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

http://modelenginenews.org/etw/rotpiseng.html

[WilDun]

http://modelenginenews.org/etw/rotpiseng.html

That's a clever invention!
I've never heard of that one before, the picture isn't great, but good enough to get an idea of what it's all about, guess it would be an expensive thing to fix if it happened to throw a rod!
Very interesting though.

[Asher]

Here's a 2 stroke pivot piston we have here at work. It's one of the engineers at work from when he worked at Brown Brothers. Apparently the engine worked well and made decent power.

[WilDun]

Here's a 2 stroke pivot piston we have here at work. It's one of the engineers at work from when he worked at Brown Brothers. Apparently the engine worked well and made decent power.

I think that one is covered somewhere on the net and just called the "Pivotal Engine " from New Zealand, guess it must be the same one. I'm sure you already have all the guff on it - i'll have to check it out.

UPDATE http://www.pivotalengine.com/img/designsolutionstitle.gif - Maybe this the same one?
Talking about he one you have access to - is it the prototype?

[husaberg]

there is a pivoting square on the net a Rhodesian guy I think, he's built a working model.

[Mental Trousers]

Here's a 2 stroke pivot piston we have here at work. It's one of the engineers at work from when he worked at Brown Brothers. Apparently the engine worked well and made decent power.

I think that one is covered somewhere on the net and just called the "Pivotal Engine " from New Zealand, guess it must be the same one. I'm sure you already have all the guff on it - i'll have to check it out.

UPDATE http://www.pivotalengine.com/img/designsolutionstitle.gif - Maybe this the same one?
Talking about he one you have access to - is it the prototype?

http://www.pivotalengine.com/flashversion.html

[Grumph]

Here's a 2 stroke pivot piston we have here at work. It's one of the engineers at work from when he worked at Brown Brothers. Apparently the engine worked well and made decent power.

Brown Bros are right next door to Mace Engineering where Paul McLaughlin developed the thing...I think in fact Brown Bros are part of the Mace group.
The staff were always back and forward between.
If you want to embarass him, ask if Paul or Bill Mace know he's got it....even though I think it's a reject, it represents a fair amount of Mace $$$.

[Ocean1]

Guess this goes here...

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/w7s-tnzPZ3c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

If you want to embarass him, ask if Paul or Bill Mace know he's got it....even though I think it's a reject, it represents a fair amount of Mace $$$.

Would be interesting to know just how much ingenuity and forgotten dreams (not to mention dollars) is lying in attics, the corners of workshops and backyards through the country and no one having a clue what they are!
Trouble is, inventors are often just that (inventors) and forget about the cost of development and marketing the things they've invented, leaving the "successful" people to pick over their designs and make use of them.
Guess that's how our world works!

[Grumph]

Would be interesting to know just how much ingenuity and forgotten dreams (not to mention dollars) is lying in attics, the corners of workshops and backyards through the country and no one having a clue what they are!
Trouble is, inventors are often just that (inventors) and forget about the cost of development and marketing the things they've invented, leaving the "successful" people to pick over their designs and make use of them.
Guess that's how our world works!

In the case of the Pivotal, from the outside, it was seen as a pure business opportunity. Mace Engineering (the family) had seen Ricky Main rake in the dollars for something which never really worked well enough to sell. Sarich was getting writeups too. It looked for a short while like new motor concepts were going to be extremely profitable...Then just at the right moment, Paul popped up with a proposition to develop one. Whatever the outcome, I've got to give him the fact it ran - and quite well too. But it appears that by the time of the big video release and promotion, the time had passed for a new motor. People had been burnt who invested in Ricky Main's scheme and this sort of thing was no longer flavour of the month.

As an aside there's a very funny story to come out one day about the negotiations by a friend of mine with the IRD on Ricky's behalf to allow him to come back to NZ - without being immediately clapped in jail...

[WilDun]

Guess this goes here...

I imagine a misfire could leave you with quite a limp!:laugh:

[WilDun]

on Ricky's behalf to allow him to come back to NZ - without being immediately clapped in jail...

Anyway, where did Ricky eventually end up?

[Grumph]

Anyway, where did Ricky eventually end up?

Last heard of working in Oz again. He had to come home to NZ as his mother was very ill. Without clearing the decks he would never have seen her again alive.
I was never very sure of his motor. Sounded good in theory and he'd got Jack Brabham in his corner which wasn't ever easy...But....
And of course I'd known of him for years as he'd raced bikes and built trailers in ChCh - which didn't exactly add confidence.

[WilDun]

And of course I'd known of him for years as he'd raced bikes and built trailers in ChCh - which didn't exactly add confidence.

As I see it, government assistance can often leave loopholes for unscrupulous types and I was never convinced about his engine at all - when he set up that flash "workshop" in OZ with all it's CAD stations and fancy machines with people manning them who didn't actually seem to know what they were doing, I definitely was not convinced.
Got to give him credit for being a trier though - I do think (as someone else mentioned) he possibly got some of his business inspiration from Sarich, who must have have gone about things the right way of course - he actually got there with an offspin from his original idea - not his revolutionary engine however.

[Grumph]

As I see it, government assistance, also people with surplus cash can sometimes be a little misguided and government assistance often leaves loopholes for unscrupulous types. :confused:

Ha - it seems to be generally forgotten that John Britten received a DFC grant - which afaik was never paid back....Someone in ChCh at the time reckoned it was akin to giving Bob Jones a grant to set up a racing stable.

[WilDun]

Ha - it seems to be generally forgotten that John Britten received a DFC grant - which afaik was never paid back....Someone in ChCh at the time reckoned it was akin to giving Bob Jones a grant to set up a racing stable.

Yes, then there's Bob Jones, he even set up a political party expressly to get rid of Muldoon and as soon as he managed to do that, he walked off and left his party to flounder!
Now if he had invented a revolutionary engine, he could have made multi million dollars without even building a prototype! - without going to prison I might add.
:laugh:

[ken seeber]

Will,

Have a look at some of these. And I thought I had a troubled mind!

http://www.pattakon.com/

[WilDun]

Thanks Ken,
I may have a troubled mind too! However, even though a lot of these probably won't actually work, they still make food for thought and I guess sitting thinking about it all will see me out! - story of my life,(and many others), ie too much thought and not enough action....... unlike Flettner!

I did get some of my thoughts down on paper though and was hoping to get my furnace and workshop in operation to try out a few of my better ones and have at least something tangible done before I "kick the bucket"!

Always been keen on infinitely variable valve timing and came up with a workable idea around i987 - it was almost fully mechanical, but...... I really should have tried harder at the time!

I believe that many of these ideas (some of which with development would possibly be quite feasible) are often thought up by people who spend more time with their expensive CAD programs, making (great) animations which then becomes the main challenge in life, maybe preventing them from actually getting the original idea working!

However, they are still extremely interesting and ingenious!

BTW - a lot of viruses around!!

[Madmax]

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/Trebert%20stationary%20cylinders%20anim.gif

more detailed

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/Trebert2.gif

have fun:devil2:

[Cheesy]

Here's a 2 stroke pivot piston we have here at work. It's one of the engineers at work from when he worked at Brown Brothers. Apparently the engine worked well and made decent power.



Thats a pretty old one, this is one of the later versions
308696

At some stage they even machined up a couple of titanium pistons to try and get it to work

[Cheesy]

And another one
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[Mental Trousers]

I'm still mystified as to why they made them square. It makes the cylinders much easier to machine but it must be a bitch when it comes to getting a complete burn.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pif38jJi6Ig

[unstuck]

Wave crank engine

Cannot see it taking off myself.

[husaberg]

Cannot see it taking off myself.

Yeah the PVC and wood looks a bit half baked.......

[husaberg]

I'd say if that one takes off, then we are definitely living cuckooland!

There is another one in the same You Tube group, which resembles the Dynacam aero engine which looks to be a better bet.
However even though the Dynacam has now been certified as an aero engine, it still hasn't hasn't struck the paydirt after a helluva lot of years in development and I can't see this one doing any better.

I don't see any advantage to the dynacam the power output is not that stella (maybe only thing is packaging) a decent two stroke is lighter and smaller.

[unstuck]

Yeah the PVC and wood looks a bit half baked.......

Nah, no wings...........

308861

[WilDun]

Guess that one will have to wait till he discovers Aluminium and Steel. :laugh:

I think the good old conventional two stroke is still streets ahead of everything, with power to weight ratio and simplicity - still a problem with fuel consumption in aircraft engine form - at least till all this injection stuff is properly sorted anyway.

[WilDun]

Then, there's this Aussie one which I found quite a while ago, (way before this thread started), sort of surprised it hasn't been mentioned here before! and it seems to be working ok so far.

http://citsengine.com.au/?page_id=50

[unstuck]

So, do they have their own engine moldings in mind, or are they just planning on robbing Suzuki and rotax's for production models . :laugh:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ndWWHzE1Eek" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

are they just planning on robbing Suzuki and rotax's for production models . :laugh:


I think that it's going to save a lot of bucks if he incorporates other peoples technology in his prototypes to prove a point first, but it's a brave man who sets out to improve on what's out there already by trying to put a new one on the market.
If he does try to do that, they'll eat him alive and if he produces a few successful prototypes I bet someone big will just use his ideas, (similar but a little different) - good on him for trying though.

[unstuck]

I bet someone big will just use his ideas, (similar but a little different) - good on him for trying though.

Yep, all those people that scoffed when some dude wanted to make a ship out of steel would be still kicking themselves I reckon.:killingme

[TLDV8]

This was posted on BB.com, somewhat odd ball. ?

http://youtu.be/0gkgoNTBLdE

[WilDun]

This was posted on BB.com, somewhat odd ball. ?


Fantastic - don't you just love it! - watched the Stanley Steamer stuff as well of course.
Not really the thing to go to work on, (would rather spend the extra hour or so in bed!) - good for a few short trips out and about, not much good being in the AA though!

[WilDun]

Well it looks like this thread has finally ground to a halt, even Husa has nothing to add! It would seem that there is really nothing new under the sun and if there is, anything new can be found on the net at any time now.
Never mind, it went quite well while it lasted!

[husaberg]

Well it looks like this thread has finally ground to a halt, even Husa has nothing to add! It would seem that there is really nothing new under the sun and if there is, anything new can be found on the net at any time now.
Never mind, it went quite well while it lasted!

I had forgotten about it Neil will add something when he gets the sleeve valve going.

Speaking of the sleeve Valve
Last time I was talking to Neil
I mentioned these. 54mm
311310
288 Husky
311311
Stil 066
311312
Dolmar 6401-7900

[husaberg]

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/191238-quirkiest-f1-engine-concepts/

[WilDun]

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/191238-quirkiest-f1-engine-concepts/

I like the one in the middle seems like a compact arrangement, was it ever fired in anger?

No doubt the one on the right will be going in a monster truck :lol:

[husaberg]

I like the one in the middle seems like a compact arrangement, was it ever fired in anger?

No doubt the one on the right will be going in a monster truck :lol:

can't find the Ferrari
but I did find this while looking
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-10-most-unusual-engines-of-all-time-feature

1.5 litre 1925 Fiat Tipo 451
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=dUsm6HUfUOMC&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=1.5+litre+1925+Fiat+Tipo+451&source=bl&ots=yOw4qLjb4C&sig=mRK58P4C1lIcURT-V3g2XaTAR_o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NOZFVfPRKMe2mAWZkYHAAw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[husaberg]

there is a pivoting square on the net a Rhodesian guy I think, he's built a working model.
The Hossack engine
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fEDEL4CQ_gc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3Ly8XdwVfds" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/miFY40PclMU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
http://www.hossack-design.com/#!the-engine/cpx2
the transfers are pretty far from optimal but I love the eccentric motion of it, reminds me of a Wankel

[WilDun]

That prototype engine was actually quite successful (as were most of Hossack's designs) mainly his frame/chassis stuff, however not all his designs were a commercial success, although I'm pretty sure that the new BMW front suspension setup was his design also, am I right?
Guess he's getting on a bit now but I'm sure he's still thinking up new stuff.

[husaberg]

Reminds me of the V2 V8
311972

This is a Wooler motorcycle engine and would be considered a beam engine, a type more commonly seen in steam engines.

The engine (1926) was the feature of greatest interest and was laid out as a transverse-four, the cylinders on each side being one above the other. This alone was far from normal, but really unique was the way in which they were connected to the crankshaft, for this was based on the beam engine. Capacity was 500cc, and overhead valves were used.

The crankshaft ran along the machine, below all the cylinders, and was of a single-throw design. In fact, for the prototype, a modified assembly from a 150 cc New Imperial was used. Above the crankshaft was a T-shaped beam, which was pivoted at the junction of the leg and arms, this axis also Iying along the machine. A master con- necting rod joined the end of the T-leg to the crankshaft, so as this rotated, the beam oscillated. The arm of the T was set vertically, and each end was attached to two connecting rods, which pointed in opposite directions and ran out to the pistons. Thus, these moved in pairs, and the two pairs moved in opposition.
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/1793-more-oddball-engines/

For those that have not seen the NSU
311973311974
311975
Mmmm..........
311976

There's also the Wiseman planetary crankshaft.

311977

[husaberg]

That prototype engine was actually quite successful (as were most of Hossack's designs) mainly his frame/chassis stuff, however not all his designs were a commercial success, although I'm pretty sure that the new BMW front suspension setup was his design also, am I right?
Guess he's getting on a bit now but I'm sure he's still thinking up new stuff.
Different Guy........
not sure how successful this engine is different but the porting is very 1960 Mcculloch

Wow nuclear powered plane engine
311978
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Aircraft_Reactors_Arco_ID_2009.jpg/1280px-Aircraft_Reactors_Arco_ID_2009.jpg
In May 1946, the United States Army Air Forces started the Nuclear Energy for the Propulsion of Aircraft (NEPA) project, which conducted studies until the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion (ANP) program replaced NEPA in 1951. The ANP program included provisions for studying two different types of nuclear-powered jet engines: General Electric's Direct Air Cycle and Pratt & Whitney's Indirect Air Cycle. ANP planned for Convair to modify two B-36s under the MX-1589 project. One of the B-36s, the NB-36H, was to be used for studying shielding requirements for an airborne reactor, while the other was to be the X-6; however, the program was cancelled before the X-6 was completed.

The first operation of a nuclear aircraft engine occurred on January 31, 1956 using a modified General Electric J47 turbojet engine
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[Grumph]

I like the one in the middle seems like a compact arrangement, was it ever fired in anger?

No doubt the one on the right will be going in a monster truck :lol:

I'd seriously doubt if the ferrari ever got off the drawing board. The combustion chamber shape is horrible and valve area is too small for the double cylinder volume...

[WilDun]

A different Hossack? - bet they were related somehow - pretty uncommon name, both English and both with an extrmely innovative flair!

Ferrari and NSU were always great triers and not afraid to check out new ideas. I think NSU crashed out with the Wankel engine though and possibly Fiat may have kept Ferrari afloat.

[pete376403]

Wow nuclear powered plane engine


The first operation of a nuclear aircraft engine occurred on January 31, 1956 using a modified General Electric J47 turbojet engine


I'll see your nuclear aircraft engine and raise you a nuclear rocket engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Rover
Named Kiwi
The first phase of Project Rover, Kiwi, was named after the small flightless bird. It consisted of a series of non-flyable test nuclear engines, with primary focus on improving the technology of hydrogen-cooled reactors. Between 1959 and 1964, a total of eight reactors were built and tested. After conclusion of these experiments in 1964, further efforts were concentrated towards larger and more powerful Phoebus reactors.[4] Kiwi was considered successful proof that nuclear rockets could be considered not only feasible but highly reliable and advantageous for space travel.
http://www.lanl.gov/science/NSS/issue1_2011/story4full.shtml

[husaberg]

I'll see your nuclear aircraft engine and raise you a nuclear rocket engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Rover
Named Kiwi
The first phase of Project Rover, Kiwi, was named after the small flightless bird. It consisted of a series of non-flyable test nuclear engines, with primary focus on improving the technology of hydrogen-cooled reactors. Between 1959 and 1964, a total of eight reactors were built and tested. After conclusion of these experiments in 1964, further efforts were concentrated towards larger and more powerful Phoebus reactors.[4] Kiwi was considered successful proof that nuclear rockets could be considered not only feasible but highly reliable and advantageous for space travel.
http://www.lanl.gov/science/NSS/issue1_2011/story4full.shtml

Are you sure it wasn't after William Pickering. Either way Rutherford would be chuffed as well.

I had heard about this wasn't sure how small it was I understood someone died during its decommioning but I can find nothing about it on the Net

312031


US experience of small light water reactors (LWRs) has been of very small military power plants, such as the 11 MWt, 1.5 MWe (net) PM-3A reactor which operated at McMurdo Sound in Antarctica 1962-72, generating a total of 78 million kWh. It was refueled once, in 1970. There was also an Army program for small reactor development, most recently the DEER (deployable electric energy reactor) concept which was being commercialised by Radix Power & Energy. DEER would be portable and sealed, able to operate in the range 3 to 10 MWe, for forward military bases.

It was nickmaned NUKY POO on account of its frequent breakdowns and leaks
A US naval report issued upon its decommissioning (downloadable to the right) indicated the reactor experienced 438 malfunctions – nearly 56 a year – in its operational lifetime, including leaking water surrounding the reactor and hairline cracks in the reactor lining.

Nuclear power 1962-1972 McMurdo Base

On March 3, 1962, operators activated a nuclear power plant at the station. The plant, like nearby Scott's Discovery Hut, was prefabricated in modules. Engineers designed the components to weigh no more than 30,000 pounds (14,000 kg) each and to measure no more than 8 ft 8 inches by 8 ft 8 inches by thirty feet (2.6 × 2.6 × 9.1 m). A single core no larger than an oil drum served as the heart of the nuclear reactor. These size and weight restrictions were intended to allow the reactor to be delivered in an LC-130 Hercules aircraft. However, the components were actually delivered by vessel. The reactor generated 1.8 MW of electrical power[5] and reportedly replaced the need for 1,500 US gallons (5,700 l) of oil daily.[6] Engineers applied the reactor's power, for instance, in producing steam for the salt water distillation plant. As a result of continuing safety issues, the U.S. Navy Nuclear Power Program decommissioned the plant in 1972. After the nuclear power station was no longer operational, conventional diesel generators were used. There were a number of 500 kW diesel generators in a central powerhouse providing electric power. A conventionally fueled water desalination plant provided fresh water
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20 minutes in.
One of the videos I watched had a 25mm space gun the Russian test fired on a Defunct satellite, no air in space so would that mean it would go superfast on and on if it missed.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-O-S/Russia--Nuclear-Power/#FNPP
http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/nuclear-usa/2011-03-small-scale-us-nuclear-reactor-blamed-for-spiking-cancer-rates-casting-pall-over-russias-fnpp-fetish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Station

[pete376403]

Fig. 3. Robert Hanrahan stands between the Kiwi-A (left) and Phoebus-1 (right). Phoebus-1 is now at the Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas, Nevada. Hanrahan is now director of the Office of Nuclear Experiments for the National Nuclear Security Administration. Archival photo courtesy of Robert Hanrahan.

[husaberg]

Fig. 3. Robert Hanrahan stands between the Kiwi-A (left) and Phoebus-1 (right). Phoebus-1 is now at the Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas, Nevada. Hanrahan is now director of the Office of Nuclear Experiments for the National Nuclear Security Administration. Archival photo courtesy of Robert Hanrahan.

I think the reactor core at Mcmurdo was meant to be the size of a 44 Gallon Drum.
Question is where and how the heck were they going to store all that water or was it not water? Sodium maybe......
The pre 3 mile 3 mile island.... be a good system though it the sealing could be fixed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_Reactor_Experiment

Scratch that he bothers to read the links lol its a nuclear rocket..........
I was thinking an outer space propulsion engine

[husaberg]

I was googling scotch crank two stroke and came up with this.http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/new-2-stroke-diesel-engine-cool-link-engineering-5114.html
<iframe src="http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Opposed-Piston-Opposed-Cylinder/player?layout=&amp;read_more=1" width="416" height="265" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>
312067
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[WilDun]

I was googling scotch crank two stroke and came up with this.

The Scotch Yoke has been around a long time but the good old conrod won through. Apparently the scotch Yoke (with normal straight slot) gives even dwell duration at TDC and BDC and this wouldn't be right for two strokes, whereas the conrod gives a longer dwell at BDC.
There are several ways of changing the dwell, one example being given here, but none seem to have worked out well on IC engines.
Got nothing to verify this at the moment though, but I remember reading it somewhere a long time ago.

I first learnt about the Scotch yoke when I found that our little grey Ferguson Tractor used one as a hydraulic pump, - it was very successful innovation then, ie. way back in the nineteen fifties.

[husaberg]

The Scotch Yoke has been around a long time but the good old conrod won through. Apparently the scotch Yoke (with normal straight slot) gives even dwell duration at TDC and BDC and this wouldn't be right for two strokes, whereas the conrod gives a longer dwell at BDC.
There are several ways of changing the dwell, one example being given here, but none seem to have worked out well on IC engines.
Got nothing to verify this at the moment though, but I remember reading it somewhere a long time ago.

I first learnt about the Scotch yoke when I found that our little grey Ferguson Tractor used one as a hydraulic pump, - it was very successful innovation then, ie. way back in the nineteen fifties.

I scotch crank should have a higher potential rev sealing less friction and exert more leverage on the crankshaft at mid stroke.
I had a TEA until recently I thought it was a plunger pump I guess it was both. The little Fergy had poor flow but awesome pressure. It could dead lift near 1 tonne.

[WilDun]

I scotch crank should have a higher potential rev sealing less friction and exert more leverage on the crankshaft at mid stroke.

There would be much less stress on the piston with side thrust removed (or nearly removed).
I think there would probably be a little sidethrust on the piston when the whole thing tried to tilt, ie. around mid stroke. That could be prevented by a deeper"crosshead" I guess, but there would be a lot more weight of course.
Probably the conrod wins at least in high speed operation like an engine.

Most farmers had no interest whatever in maintenance when I was a kid, they never topped up the oil in the hydraulics on the TEA and the the arms used to bob up and down with each stroke of the pump - bloody savages! all they cared about was how many acres they had ploughed that day and how big their milk cheque was! :crazy:
The mighty little TEA still survived it all though.

[husaberg]

There would be much less stress on the piston with side thrust removed (or nearly removed).
I think there would probably be a little sidethrust on the piston when the whole thing tried to tilt, ie. around mid stroke. That could be prevented by a deeper"crosshead" I guess, but there would be a lot more weight of course.
Probably the conrod wins at least in high speed operation like an engine.

Most farmers had no interest whatever in maintenance when I was a kid, they never topped up the oil in the hydraulics on the TEA and the the arms used to bob up and down with each stroke of the pump - bloody savages! all they cared about was how many acres they had ploughed that day and how big their milk cheque was! :crazy:
The mighty little TEA still survived it all though.

The Fergy had very touchy hydraulics at least on mine they were, either up or down nothing in between.

I will scan the pros and cons of the scotch yoke but I think it has definate advantages the big factor against it is it small area to breath from as the area below the seal is not part of the crankcase.

As for the asymmetrical timing with the scotch yoke have a look at this.
312132

I have a bit of an idea forming based on another oddball engine that likely never seen production along the idea of Frits FOS but the way I see it the exhaust would be at the bottom of the cylinder.

[husaberg]

Bourke Engine
http://bourke-engine.com/vlb/
http://bourke-engine.com/
30-50:1 air ratio engine
One stroke like a gun.
312138
312139

[WilDun]

The Fergy had very touchy hydraulics at least on mine they were, either up or down nothing in between.

I will scan the pros and cons of the scotch yoke but I think it has definate advantages the big factor against it is it small area to breath from as the area below the seal is not part of the crankcase.

The engine wouldn't necessarily need to have a crankcase seperated from the cylinder/piston, but I must say that the whole assembly would make for a lot of reciprocating weight!
Also if you make a convoluted slot to get rid of the symmetrcal movement you would probably be stressing things a little and have some problems at high revs! - not to mention balance problems!

See what I mean! - in the second picture the whole bloody thing is out of control!! :lol:

As I always say, try it anyway and then you'll know whether I'm right or wrong (cos I don't). :scratch:

Your Fergie may have had some issues with the control lever (ie.valve) but again, just a guess.

[husaberg]

The engine wouldn't necessarily need to have a crankcase seperated from the cylinder/piston, but I must say that the whole assembly would make for a lot of reciprocating weight!
Also if you make a convoluted slot to get rid of the symmetrcal movement you would probably be stressing things a little and have some problems at high revs! - not to mention balance problems!

See what I mean! - in the second picture the whole bloody thing is out of control!! :lol:

As I always say, try it anyway and then you'll know whether I'm right or wrong (cos I don't). :scratch:

Your Fergie may have had some issues with the control lever (ie.valve) but again, just a guess.

There is slipper wear granted but if it is an opposed cylinder design it has less inertia stress. it is cushioned at tdc and bdc.
It also only has linear movement so less friction.
Plus yes with separate stokes it will have imbalance but I don't see it as a huge issue.
Likely because it will never happen LOL
15000prm is achievable.

[WilDun]

There is slipper wear granted but if it is an opposed cylinder design it has less inertia stress. it is cushioned at tdc and bdc.
It also only has linear movement so less friction.
Plus yes with separate stokes it will have imbalance but I don't see it as a huge issue.
Likely because it will never happen LOL
15000prm is achievable.

Yes, it's cushioned ok but with two pistons and a strong heavy crosshead (slipper) all going one way and then reversing? ........
I always liked the concept though and maybe I could try it after I get the foundry stuff in operation, sort out my dividing head, build a toolpost grinder, sheetmetal rolls, a press, rebuild a little lathe and do numerous odd jobs for others etc.etc. then i'll get on to it.
Hopefully everything will be finished and ready to give to some lucky person when I finally expire!

15000rpm ? .........In your dreams.

[husaberg]

15000rpm ? .........In your dreams.
The rpm figure came from KG Draper a two stroke design engineer.
In a book written when 10000 rpm was a lot.
The reasoning given is the centrifugal forces are only acting on the slipper.

[WilDun]

The rpm figure came from KG Draper a two stroke design engineer.
In a book written when 10000 rpm was a lot.
The reasoning given is the centrifugal forces are only acting on the slipper.

I think I may have that book somewhere and remember something about the Scotch yoke in it - must try and dig it up.
The difference between Draper and Dr Gordon Blair is that Draper was around at a time when not much (two stroke at least) development work was being done - his work seemed to be all theory, never really building much, (but I may be wrong), whereas Blair had the best of both worlds being backed by Queen's University and using their facilities and a team of enthusiasts to produce actual successful one off racing machines and do development work for others, (Yamaha being one, he did a lot of development work for them).

I guess Draper was born at the wrong time!, I would imagine that the time between the wars and just after WW2 was not a good time to do this sort of work, but maybe I just hadn't heard about some of the other stuff he may have done.

[husaberg]

Everything odd and quite a few that are not great site with animations and annotations as well.

http://www.3d-meier.de/tut16/Seite0.html

[WilDun]

Don't forget the DKW/SAAB 3 cylinder two stroke cars.
In the sixties, I got a surprise when one of these shot past me on my 250 Suzuki, which could just about crack the ton with head down - there was I thinking that I was invincible!
They weren't just prototypes either, the SAAB car was developed into a very successful rally car, DKW also raced their car on the tarseal I believe.

312438

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbSM-h_nmi8

[Kickaha]

Don't forget the DKW/Saab 3 cylinder two stroke cars. In the sixties, I got a surprise when one of these shot past me on my 250 Suzuki (and I thought that I was invincible then!). They weren't just prototypes either, the Saab was developed into a very successful rally car, DKW also raced them on the tarseal I believe.


Several people also used them as sidecar motors

[WilDun]

Several people also used them as sidecar motors

Never saw one on a sidecar, but it would have been a logical candidate for a sidecar motor - If they had kept on developing them and knowing two strokes like they do today, they would have been pretty good by now!

To be honest, in a funny sort of way, those little cars look better (and probably are better) than a lot of small cars on the roads today!
It's a pity that design is controlled by the fashion whims of ditzy people, who can destroy something good in a flash.

[Kickaha]

Never saw one on a sidecar, but it would have been a logical candidate for a sidecar motor - If they had kept on developing them and knowing two strokes like they do today, they would have been pretty good by now!.
Well if you find one under a bench somehwere fire it my way :msn-wink:

[husaberg]

Well if you find one under a bench somehwere fire it my way :msn-wink:

Suzuki used to do quote a few in cars and in jeeps......

[Kickaha]

Suzuki used to do quote a few in cars and in jeeps......

Before 1976? an Imp motor will do if no one has a Saab, I can pay in pies

[husaberg]

Before 1976? an Imp motor will do if no one has a Saab, I can pay in pies

yes before 76 the forrest service used to have plenty of the jeeps they were popular 4wds used to see the coupes around in CHCH mainly.
They reved their nuts off.....shit they were only 360cc the 4wd were only 530cc
312449
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[WilDun]

......they were only 360cc the 4wd were only 530cc

I did have a 360cc engine many years ago, wasn't complete and so I didn't persevere with it, but it wouldn't have been as valuable as a DKW!

[WilDun]

I was also very interested in the Hillman Imp engine at one stage, (metioned a couple of posts ago by Kikaha ) Someone managed to wring quite a bit of power from those little Imps as rally cars.
That little engine had good potential for sidecars too, pity it couldn't compete with the much more conventional pushrod (but very heavy) BMC mini engine though as special parts for those were very much available in those days.
I seem to remember seeing a Mini engine in a sidecar at Wanganui around 1968, but they didn't manage to get it singing properly that day for some reason!
Can't remember whether the Imp had a 3 or 5 bearing crank


There you go, 3 bearing!
.312516

[husaberg]

I was also very interested in the Hillman Imp engine at one stage, (metioned a couple of posts ago by Kikaha ) Someone managed to wring quite a bit of power from those little Imps as rally cars.
That little engine had good potential for sidecars too, pity it couldn't compete with the much more conventional pushrod (but very heavy) BMC mini engine though as special parts for those were very much available in those days.
I seem to remember seeing a Mini engine in a sidecar at Wanganui around 1968, but they didn't manage to get it singing properly that day for some reason!
Can't remember whether the Imp had a 3 or 5 bearing crank


There you go, 3 bearing!
.312516

The Coventry Climax was pretty successful..........

[WilDun]

Guess the Imp was a extremely diluted version of the Climax, or was the Climax an extensively modified fire pump engine? - bet the Climax didn't have a 3 bearing crank!

[Grumph]

Guess the Imp was a extremely diluted version of the Climax, or was the Climax an extensively modified fire pump engine? - bet the Climax didn't have a 3 bearing crank!

The Imp is a version of the small FPF climax firepump engine. Same design team, brief was to make it cheaper and easier to manufacture.
There was a guy in ChCh who had built race versions for years in the UK, came home and built them here too as Impwerkes. Post quake and GFC he's moved to aussie.
Kraut called Gerhart Muller built and raced DKW triples in Formula junior cars. Moderately successful, mainly remembered for the noise...There's at least one DKW being raced in Classic saloons here in NZ. Goes well.
I had a Suzuki Fronte car new. 500cc or so triple. No relation to any bike motor they made. Piston port, integral box and diff. Very light car so quite quick. Kart with a roof on...Minis were easy meat. 65 sec lap on the original Ruapuna - at a time when Mk2 lotus Cortinas were doing the same lap time. Fun.

[WilDun]

I had a Suzuki Fronte - Very light car so quite quick. Kart with a roof on...Minis were easy meat. 65 sec lap on the original Ruapuna - at a time when Mk2 lotus Cortinas were doing the same lap time. Fun.

Guess I missed out on all that, but I always took great delight in watching a small two stroke blow a large grunt machine into the weeds!
However,the two stroke is still the poor relation despite its successes, because the big "bully boys" just changed the rules and pushed them right out of existence.

[husaberg]

Not that odd but busy
the engine that powered the Bristol freighter amongst others.
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_vrvep_YOio" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hzXeFql-1VU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EJcxpFTFJPA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WilDun]

Those were very successful engines - a bit "busy" as you say, also much more economical than the Pratt & Whitney radials.
I think they were used on the Bristol Beaufighter, Bristol freighter,Wellington bombers, Stirling bombers, maybe the Halifax and the Sunderland flying boat. The most powerful of that line was (I think) the Centaurus as used on the Hawker Fury/Sea Fury, which was reputed to be the fastest piston powered aircraft ever.
When Air New Zealand (TEAL in those days) brought in the Short Solent flying boats for the Tasman run the government in it's wisdom decided to use Pratt & Whitney engines instead (probably to get a good deal from America by using war surplus engines more than for any other reason).
I heard somewhere that when there was a headwind on the way to Sydney they sometimes only just made it with the amount of fuel they carried, whereas the Bristol sleeve valve engines could have made it easily.
Luckily the passengers of the day weren't aware of the situation and probably also good that they were flying boats!

[husaberg]

Those were very successful engines - a bit "busy" as you say, also much more economical than the Pratt & Whitney radials.
I think they were used on the Bristol Beaufighter, Bristol freighter,Wellington bombers, Stirling bombers, maybe the Halifax and the Sunderland flying boat. the most powerful of that line was (I think) the Centaurus as used on the Hawker Fury/Sea Fury, which was reputed to be the fastest piston powered aircraft ever.
When Air New Zealand (TEAL in those days) brought in the Short Solent flying boats for the Tasman run the government in it's wisdom decided to use Pratt & Whitney engines instead (probably to get a good deal from America by using war surplus engines more than for any other reason).
I heard somewhere that when there was a headwind on the way to Sydney they sometimes only just made it with the amount of fuel they carried, whereas the Bristol sleeve valve engines could have made it easily.
Luckily the passengers of the day weren't aware of the situation and probably also good that they were flying boats!

Some of the Lancasters used them as well when RR was having trouble supplying the fighters tanks and bombers. supposedly they never gave any trouble until the last 2000HP versions, 38 liters I think.
Here is an other pic of a sleeve engine a bit more detailed I wonder if a Plated queeze form alloy cermanic liner would work better than a steel liner where's Neil.
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/E_m784s3_z0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A model one wow
http://www.agelessengines.com/sleeve.htm

[WilDun]

Neil's busy on the bucket foundry forum thread with the RR Merlin!

[WilDun]

I notice that when you look through the You Tube videos after watching the ones posted, the last one you looked at remains on the post.

Anyway, I see that someone's experimental sleeve valve engine is based on an old Briggs & Stratton.

The good old Briggs is useful for just about everything, it's seems to be just about the most used and cheapest solution there is for developing an experimental engine.

[husaberg]

I notice that when you look through the You Tube videos after watching the ones posted, the last one you looked at remains on the post.

Anyway, I see that someone's experimental sleeve valve engine is based on an old Briggs & Stratton.

The good old Briggs is useful for just about everything, it's seems to be just about the most used and cheapest solution there is for developing an experimental engine.

Google is intuitive they will also recommend stuff in this feature based on what you actually have also watched in the past.

[Flettner]

I'm watching.

[husaberg]

This is what I was talking about with the liners.
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[WilDun]

This is what I was talking about with the liners.
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Husa, must say those liners are a very interesting concept (and available too).

Neil, I thought you might have tried it all out on a Briggs first, but I guess in your case it's easier to build from scratch than try to modify anything.
BTW, Is there a story behind the 'beam' layout? - there must be, (we won't say a word!)

[WilDun]

Mayflower Engine:-
This engine I had entirely forgotten about was being touted as the engine of the future - that was around 2000 - 2001.
It seemed to die along with of its originator, Dr Joe Erlich who died in 2003 and who designed and built some good two stroke racing bikes in the early sixties and actually gave the Hondas a run for their money - with Mike Hailwood aboard!

The Mayflower engine has a very interesting linkage system which can make some radical changes to the stroke, but unfortunately this video is the only real description of it I have found recently.

Can't seem to get the link to work as yet from this site, but just punch in "Mayflower Engine" and the video will be at the top of the list (probably).

[husaberg]

This engine I had entirely forgotten about was being touted as the engine of the future that was around 2000 - 2001.
It seemed to die along with of it's origiDr Joe Erlich in 2003 who designed and built some good two stroke racing bikes in the early sixties and actually gave the Hondas a run for their money - with Mike Hailwood aboard!

This engine has a very interesting linkage system which can make some radical changes to the stroke but unfortunately this video is the only real description of it I have found recently.

NUtps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVlJn3TzN

You might need to work on that link?
Right click on it and chose the embedded media option and paste it in.

<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jvipPYFebWc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I guess this is what you mean Dr Joe had a history of er...... borrowing other peoples engines. From Puch MZ and others.
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http://www.docscipark.com.au/ee_tech.html

[WilDun]

Yes that might be true (and so did Suzuki), but at least he did try and if he hadn't done that, we wouldn't have seen or heard of it because it was hidden behind the Iron curtain!
In the case of Suzuki, they probably would have handed out big dollars for Ernst Degner to "obtain" the secrets of MZ.

BTW is Lindsay Stirling keen on bikes and engines too? - or has you tube a bit haywire for you too?

[husaberg]

Yes that might be true (and so did Suzuki), but at least he did try and if he hadn't done that, we wouldn't have seen or heard of it because it was hidden behind the Iron curtain!
In the case of Suzuki, they probably would have handed out big dollars for Ernst Degner to "obtain" the secrets of MZ.

BTW is Lindsay Stirling keen on bikes and engines too? - or has you tube a bit haywire for you too?

No that was the closet pic google could find to what you tried to link linked I left it as there was a Stirling engine (and I would also ride her)

[WilDun]

No that was the closet pic google could find to what you tried to link linked I left it as there was a Stirling engine (and I would also ride her)

And what class would that be in? to me, looks like it would be a works ride, you sure you could handle that?

[husaberg]

And what class would that be in? to me, looks like it would be a works ride, you sure you could handle that?

I would finish first guarantied.
What video were you trying to link?

[WilDun]

What video were you trying to link?

Just one on a small experimental sleeve valve engine based on a Briggs & Stratton,(guess).
I copied the link but each time it just came up with something else, so I gave up.

EDIT, Sorry, I see now that it's the video you posted anyway, as you can see, the inlet and exhaust ports of the original side valve engine are still there.
(post # 211).

[WilDun]

The Mayflower engine. (another try I think it's very interesting). Reckon it would be worth a try for some keen engine developer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVlJn3TzNU

[husaberg]

The Mayflower engine. (another try I think it's very interesting). Reckon it would be worth a try for some keen engine developer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeVlJn3TzNU

Off the same link
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DdM2VbbdtB4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Mental Trousers]

A prototype for a CVT transmission that uses gear


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6zE__J0YIU

[WilDun]

Saw the second one (variable gearbox)round about a year ago, but missed the engine one before, it looks fantastic and it must be good if the French government is prepared to pour all that money into it, I need to look at it again.
Sounds a bit like Neil's experimental beam engine - think I'm slipping behind with all these new inventions, don't know how I missed that one!
Maybe I'll have to go back to looking at the ESE thread again, I stopped going there as I was spending too much time on the computer and not enough in my little foundry! which is still coming along slowly.
I don't ride bikes anymore, so I don't need to know the finer details of how to tune engines to gain 1% more power etc. etc. more interested in new technology or old foundry techniques these days - Times do change.!

Also I have read criticism about that variable gearbox, claiming that it can't work, but we'll just be patient and see if they can get it into production or at least sell it to someone who can, but you can bet that if it has any merit it'll be snapped up.

[WilDun]

And then , there's this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lheqeERb4

[P38]

There's some clever bugger out there that's for sure.

The plumbers D drive looks like a winner.

Cheers
Pete

[WilDun]

This is a good description of Honda's Moto GP seamless gearbox (was looking for this when I came across the silly video above) However, Yamaha have now gone the same way and are leaving the Honda behind!

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3212/motogp-transmissions

[WilDun]

Another one I found in a tatty old mag I had "filed" away - been a long time since I last saw this one!

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[Ocean1]

Another one I found in a tatty old mag I had "filed" away - been a long time since I last saw this one!

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An elbow engine. :eek:

I built a steam elbow engine when i were a nipper. Think I finally threw it out about ten years ago...

[WilDun]

An elbow engine. :eek:

I built a steam elbow engine when i were a nipper. Think I finally threw it out about ten years ago...

Threw it out! - how could you do that? :eek: - it would have been unique - I never throw anything out, then that's probably why I can't move around in my garage

[Ocean1]

Threw it out! - how could you do that? :eek: - it would have been unique - I never throw anything out, then that's probably why I can't move around in my garage

It wasn't particularly special, it was in a tea box full of brass shit I jettisoned in a rare purge.

The only things I saved from the box was a 12th scale traction engine and a stationary boiler made by my grandfather. One day I'll refurbish the traction engine and get it going. I believe the twin fuel tank pumps are fuel primer pumps from a Messerschmitt ME109. :laugh: It's far from his best work, by the time he made that his eyesight was shot, he'd turn stuff a thou at a time until the fit felt right. I have vague memories of a beam engine with actual scale 1/16" hex bolts on 3/8" flanges...

[Lightbulb]

I'm watching.

Nitriding was the game changer for sleeve valve engines.
Now days there maybe something better with the Diamond like Coatings, DLC etc

[WilDun]

Nitriding was the game changer for sleeve valve engines.
Now days there maybe something better with the Diamond like Coatings, DLC etc

I bet the pylon racing guys in America have a few clues about Bristol sleeve Valve engines by now. I think they still use machines based on the Sea Fury and I'm sure a lot of the engines used are highly modified versions of the Bristol Centaurus engine, but I have heard that many of them are using the Pratt & Whitney because of availability.

[WilDun]

Anyone interested in this? - Honda still interested in two strokes! - How about the crank arrangement, guess that's what Neil was checking out when he made the 'beam' in the photo he sent in (on the Bucket Foundry thread)??


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http://www.gizmag.com/honda-two-stroke-with-fuel-injection-patent-filing/38529/

[husaberg]

Anyone interested in this? - Honda still interested in two strokes! - How about the crank arrangement, guess that's what Neil was checking out when he made the 'beam' in the photo he sent in (on the Bucket Foundry thread)??


313847

http://www.gizmag.com/honda-two-stroke-with-fuel-injection-patent-filing/38529/

Not interested enough to give it a OHC or Pneumatic valve activation:bleh:

[WilDun]

It's got nothing to do with high performance or competition, the crank arrangement and the movement of the piston and rod is the main thing of interest here, the rest is pretty ordinary and has most probably been done before, but if you look at the patent (there's a link to the patent there somewhere) it has everything covered and whether they ever use it or not, they've got everything sewn up and I very much doubt that keeping the patent going would be any problem for Honda!

[Frits Overmars]

A prototype for a CVT transmission that uses gear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6zE__J0YIUThat CVT transmission is bogus, Shane. the only infinitely variable in the whole setup is the rpm of the electric motor, and that is accomplished in the usual way via a frequency generator. The gears are only there to enhance the controllable amount of torque at the cost of reducing the ratio spread of the electromotor. But the gears do not vary anything.

By the way: I just discovered this oddball-thread by mistake. It's great, but how on earth do you kiwis find the time to contribute to all those threads?

[Frits Overmars]

This is a good description of Honda's Moto GP seamless gearbox (was looking for this when I came across the silly video above) However, Yamaha have now gone the same way and are leaving the Honda behind! http://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3212/motogp-transmissions (https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3212/motogp-transmissions)
think I'm slipping behind with all these new inventions.... Maybe I'll have to go back to looking at the ESE thread againThen you might want to start here, Will: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130431455#post1130431455
The picture you posted on the previous page shows a Zeroshift seamless gearbox; Honda uses a fundamentally different approach.

[WilDun]

That CVT transmission is bogus, Shane. the only infinitely variable in the whole setup is the rpm of the electric motor, and that is accomplished in the usual way via a frequency generator.
but how on earth do you kiwis find the time to contribute to all those threads?

I had looked at that one maybe a couple of years ago and thought I would like to copy it (as near as possible) but I never really looked into it in any depth. As I saw it then, the gears seemed to be acting like an amplifier for a very small controllable electric motor and I think that's probably what you are getting at - but as I say I didn't really go into it and as my mind grows more feeble I may never do that! - same thing goes for seamless gearchange transmissions which I still haven't completely grasped! - Doesn't stop me from being interested though. :rolleyes:

As for hydrostatic type transmissions, I think they are too inefficient for small engines (motorcycles cars etc.) however they are used a lot in earthmoving industry.
I once had a great pile of old swasplate pumps and motors under my bench for experimenting with, (for a couple of years I worked for a company who manufactured hydraulic pumps and motors ) but I never had the time then to do anything and they all got dumped when we downsized to a smaller home.

There was a Swedish company back in the seventies, who built a prototype motorcycle for the military (Hagglunds from memory) fitted with this type of motor/pump setup, but it just seemed to disappear into the haze of history. Think I've got an article on it in an old scrapbook somewhere.

I am retired and sometimes have the time to think about these things, as well as experimenting with metal casting in my garage/workshop - but then, only in between grandchild minding sessions - they come first (that's how it seems anyway).

I will look through the link you gave me a little more thoroughly, seems to be very interesting.

[Frits Overmars]

....seamless gearchange transmissions which I still haven't completely grasped!....I will look through the link you gave me a little more thoroughly, seems to be very interesting.Seamless transmissions enable gear changes while the engine still delivers its full torque through the gearbox, so there is no need to close the throttle, cut the ignition or interrupt the injection. In a normal gearbox, when you engage two gears at the same time, the whole thing blocks and you'll get hurt.

You'll find the working principle of the Zeroshift box explained here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJHjiUheod8&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL5h-m8x_hM&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.zeroshift.com/transmission-technology/animation.html

The Honda seamless box performs the same function, but via a different principle.

The clutch and the primary gearbox shaft of the Honda gearbox are quite conventional; they could have come out of an old Maico, Zündapp or Simson engine:
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All secrets are brought together in the secondary gearbox shaft:
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This secondary shaft looks like a cylinder from a security lock, with pawls that are operated from the inside by a rod that slides through the hollow gearbox shaft:
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The essence of the Honda box can be seen in the picture below. The pawls in the shaft connect and disconnect the gears to the shaft:
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In this drawing a tumbler Rao connects the gear to the shaft when the gear is rotating clockwise. And a tumbler Rbo is connecting the gear to the shaft when the gear is rotating anticlockwise. So in this drawing the gear is locked to the shaft.
The tumblers are governed from within the shaft via an axially moving rod.

Now if we perform an upshift, the shaft will need to rotate faster than the gear. Let us assume that the shaft is rotating clockwise. So we need to retract tumbler Rbo. Now the gear can still drive the shaft, but the shaft cannot drive the gear any more.

Next we engage tumbler Rao of the next gear, so it can also drive the shaft. Then we retract tumbler Rao of our original gear, so it can now freewheel in both directions. And finally we engage tumbler Rbo of the next gear so that it is now locked to the shaft.
That's all, folks: transporting torque from the gears to the shaft without interruption, both while shifting up and down.

Honda has filed patent applications for their seamless gearbox in Japan and the United States (patent applications 2010-203478 and US20110023639, respectively).
You can download the US patent document here: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2011/0023639.html

[WilDun]

That's all, folks: transporting torque from the gears to the shaft without interruption, both while shifting up and down.

Thanks very much Frits, - seems to me that with with this type of change gearbox and an engine with a little bit of torque (ie not "peaky" like the sixties and early seventies) then the normal automatics and CVT are not really needed anymore ie. so long as the cost of producing it can be reduced to acceptable levels.

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks very much Frits, - seems to me that with with this type of change gearbox and an engine with a little bit of torque (ie not "peaky" like the sixties and early seventies) then the normal automatics and CVT are not really needed anymore ie. so long as the cost of producing it can be reduced to acceptable levels.These seamless boxes only came into being because CVT is not allowed in racing. No more than six gears are permitted, and CVT counts as an infinite number of gears. I'd choose CVT any time. It would give the rider (and the tuner) a much easier time and it would be ten times cheaper to produce than the Honda seamless gearbox.

By the way: I added some more text to my previous post. I thought I'd mention it, after I complained myself about not noticing texts that were added afterwards.

[WilDun]

These seamless boxes only came into being because CVT is not allowed in racing. No more than six gears are permitted, and CVT counts as an infinite number of gears.


Never mind, maybe I'll add a seamless box to my little lathe :laugh: ( in the past I have used lathes with pre-selector gearboxes, these were a joy to use). you just selected the gear you wanted and when ready, just pressed a button and it changed gear.
BTW I have got a bit behind with the latest transmission trends - have CVT systems been perfected for other vehicle use now? How do they work? are they still based on the old DAF system, or have they moved on?

[husaberg]

Never mind, maybe I'll add a seamless box to my little lathe :laugh: ( in the past I have used lathes with pre-selector gearboxes, these were a joy to use). you just selected the gear you wanted and when ready, just pressed a button and it changed gear.
BTW I have got a bit behind with the latest transmission trends - have CVT systems been perfected for other vehicle use now? How do they work? are they still based on the old DAF system, or have they moved on?

My mitzi has a electronically controlled CTV it has a manual model up and down (the computer selects the places where it is hydraulically locked) as a 6 speed.
The ratios of the gears in paddle selected manual mode are actually varied by the computer depending on how I am driving. it can also operate in a Constant CTV mode.

While this Is all pretty amazing if it goes pop it would cost more than $8000 to fix.
I would have rather had a manual.

[Frits Overmars]

I have got a bit behind with the latest transmission trends - have CVT systems been perfected for other vehicle use now? How do they work? are they still based on the old DAF system, or have they moved on?DAF started by copying an existing rubber V-belt CVT, like the DKW Hobby scooter had. Then DAF developed a push belt, built up of steel elements, that ran with a lot less friction and could handle more torque. It was marketed by Van Doorne Transmissions, it even figured in a Williams Formula 1 car (but this was quickly forbidden by the FIA) and nowadays the whole world uses this idea. It is particularly popular with Japanese car makers. There were of course attempts to circumvent the Van Doorne patents, the most well-known being the Audi CVT chain.

[WilDun]

Awake early this morning for some reason.
I did use the 'tiptronic' system when we hired a Mitsubishi Lancer a few years ago, it was a joy to use I must say, but is it a manually (optional) controlled CVT or old fashioned automatic?

Is there any problem with slippage with the CVT transmissions, being (as I see it), friction drives?

BTW I owned a DKW Hobby scooter for about a year, but that was a long time ago ......... also a Triumph Tigress, that was a very good handling machine, better than some of the 'proper' motorcycles I had!