The 2017 Election Thread

[mashman]

So in your world you would be happier to just sell the fresh water overseas for the same money as we now sell the milk products for therefore not needing all the cows, paddocks and dairy factories that pollute the rivers.

It takes approximately 1000 litres of water to produce 1 litre of milk.

Hemp uses less water and doesn't pollute the soil. It also makes a pretty decent building material that would allow more trees to stay in the ground. We could stop producing mobile phones at the rate we do. There are plenty of things we could do.

But to answer your question regarding water from overseas. I'd find a way to prevent it being sold at all. Consider that NZ has need for it in order to help "repair" the waterways. The govt could, in theory (See Bill Mitchell MMT), buy all of the water in the country to use for our future need. there are always ways and means. You just need to figure out what the important outcome is.

[Ocean1]

You need to sort ou who is paying for the enforcement of these regulations or the tighter ones needed otherwise you are just tring to avoid the questions.
Hint just how does Ocean intend to pay for this? who is to be charged? how does one identify who is to be charged? Hint all of this costs money.
Who is going to pay for this and the cleaning plus rehabilitation of the waterways.
You slag off Labours policy but offer no better alternative. or indeede no other workablile alternative (Unless yoou consider Waffle and spin as being workable alternatives)

I don't need to sort out anything, dude. But I suggest that the budget required to effectively regulate a given area should come form those that use it. I'd also suggest that if farmers saw one of their neighbours lose their farm because they ignored those regulations it'd have a tolerably salubrious effect on the industry' ecological performance. In WA, if you're caught with a single undersized fish you lose your boat, car and any equipment involved. Turns out that meaning what you say wrt regulations works fucking well. Who'd have thought?

And I'm not slagging off just Labour, any party that wants to tax water can get fucked.

You still on that "spin" shit? Isn't labeling the housing price increase a "crisis" more "spin" than simply pointing to the the numbers that say that Labour's performance in that regard must also have been a "crisis?.

That, mate, is spin.

[Ocean1]

It was from a scientific symposium held in Queenstown in the very early nineties

Ha more than our fair share :laugh: right, yet we've got one of the quickest run-offs of any country in the world
I live pretty much in the ground zero of where the biggest extractions are happening and locally the rivers have gone from things to be reckoned with to piddly trickles of their former selves.
The major river, the Rakaia would flow at 200 cumecs plus over the summer now it'll regularly drop below 100 and the river mouth closes with too much regularity when it gets really dry over the summer months.
Once the only way of crossing the river in it's last 20km to the sea was the main road bridge, nowadays there's multiple points where you can get a 4x4 from one bank to the other without any risk of the water level getting anywhere near bonnet level.
The likes of the Barhill irrigation scheme are totally fucking the whole ecosystem and even though the cockies need the water due to the high intensity practices they have to undertake because of supply & demand the majority flaunt the regulations and irrigation wastage is disgusting.
30yrs ago here water restrictions weren't heard of yet over the last 10yrs it's a regular event for the local communities

Aye, I know, about the dryest place in the country. So why let them farm like that? And why let them get away with ignoring the rules?

If they want water fuck them off over to the west coast.

[Ocean1]

They do it for profit.

Adults :killingme. You're the one doin' the dodgin, Son. I'm offering the blindingly obvious evidence and the logical solution. Why would you pollute when there's no profit in it? Look, when you grow a pair of balls, Son, you might actually be useful.

Arseholes generally do.

And you're right, you're blind to any logic whatsoever.

Now fuck off.

[mashman]

Arseholes generally do.

And you're right, you're blind to any logic whatsoever.

Now fuck off.

No, just people getting what they think they should earn.

What logic did you put forwards?

No.

[T.W.R]

Aye, I know, about the dryest place in the country. So why let them farm like that? And why let them get away with ignoring the rules?

If they want water fuck them off over to the west coast.

At the height of summer here you can watch the lawns brown off during an afternoon.
The main reason they get away with it around here is the income to the district and who the district mayor is! Angus Bloody Mackay! he's a cockie himself.
Environment Canterbury are too busy feathering their own nests as well and when they do penalise someone it's just a slap on wrist...totally fuckin pathetic!

Bloody MacKay, unfortunately a good mate was his farm manager in the mid 90s (the farm itself funnily enough named "Three Springs" just outside Methven, the springs dwindled to one that would only flow spasmodically :facepalm:); and through my mate got to see plans and geographical maps of the under ground aquifers the district had and MacKay had ideas brewing way back then many years before he got the mayoralty..... it's an old boys club here and they all piss in each others pockets.
mmm some of the largest operations around here already have taken hold of farms on the coast, even some of the larger Contractors have apart from their core businesses here have multiple farms operating here and on the coast

[husaberg]

I don't need to sort out anything, dude. But I suggest that the budget required to effectively regulate a given area should come form those that use it. I'd also suggest that if farmers saw one of their neighbours lose their farm because they ignored those regulations it'd have a tolerably salubrious effect on the industry. In WA, if you're caught with a single undersized fish you lose your boat, car and any equipment involved. Turns out that meaning what you say wrt regulations works.

And I'm not slagging off just Labour, any party that wants to tax water can get fucked.

You still on that "spin" shit? Isn't labeling the housing price increase a "crisis" more "spin" than simply pointing to the the numbers that say that Labour's performance in that regard must also have been a "crisis?.

That, mate, is spin.

You are slagging off stuff and yet offering no solution. Epic.
I ask again yet how are you going to pay to police this regulatory organisation. Who is going to be be taxed, how are they to be identified in order to be taxed fined or regulated.
Where is the funding to set this up going to come from.
Don't worry i realise you will not actually answer. You still have a bright future in National party politics ocean, All rhetoric, no answers just maximum spin.

[Grumph]

At the height of summer here you can watch the lawns brown off during an afternoon.
The main reason they get away with it around here is the income to the district and who the district mayor is! Angus Bloody Mackay! he's a cockie himself.
Environment Canterbury are too busy feathering their own nests as well and when they do penalise someone it's just a slap on wrist...totally fuckin pathetic!

Bloody MacKay, unfortunately a good mate was his farm manager in the mid 90s (the farm itself funnily enough named "Three Springs" just outside Methven, the springs dwindled to one that would only flow spasmodically :facepalm:); and through my mate got to see plans and geographical maps of the under ground aquifers the district had and MacKay had ideas brewing way back then many years before he got the mayoralty..... it's an old boys club here and they all piss in each others pockets.
mmm some of the largest operations around here already have taken hold of farms on the coast, even some of the larger Contractors have apart from their core businesses here have multiple farms operating here and on the coast

Yep, all true. If the progression of the last few years continues I'm expecting more and bigger fires here this summer.
The basic reason for the National govt appointing commissioners to run Ecan was that the cockies moaned they couldn't get enough water allocations.
So now we have the situation where water is over allocated to fuck - and we have dry rivers.
Then it follows that stream maintenance isn't done - no water in them - and when we do get rain, we get floods.
What a fuckup.
Locally, I'm told that the River Committee responsible for the stream maintenance has been playing brinkmanship. They get a small subsidy from SDC but have been neglecting work to try and squeeze more out of the Council when they see floods....The old boys club again...

[Woodman]

Hemp uses less water and doesn't pollute the soil. It also makes a pretty decent building material that would allow more trees to stay in the ground. We could stop producing mobile phones at the rate we do. There are plenty of things we could do.

But to answer your question regarding water from overseas. I'd find a way to prevent it being sold at all. Consider that NZ has need for it in order to help "repair" the waterways. The govt could, in theory (See Bill Mitchell MMT), buy all of the water in the country to use for our future need. there are always ways and means. You just need to figure out what the important outcome is.

But the water? off whom?

[Katman]

Ironic, coming from KBs stupidest member.


But the water? off whom?

:facepalm:

[mashman]

But the water? off whom?

Not off whom. No one owns water, but it quite clearly has a price. If you want the water for NZers, then buy it all for all NZers.

[Ocean1]

You are slagging off stuff and yet offering no solution. Epic.
I ask again yet how are you going to pay to police this regulatory organisation. Who is going to be be taxed, how are they to be identified in order to be taxed fined or regulated.
Where is the funding to set this up going to come from.
Don't worry i realise you will not actually answer. You still have a bright future in National party politics ocean, All rhetoric, no answers just maximum spin.

You're spin RPM is in the red, you're losing blood flow upstairs...


the budget required to effectively regulate a given area should come form those that use it. I'd also suggest that if farmers saw one of their neighbours lose their farm because they ignored those regulations it'd have a tolerably salubrious effect on the industry. In WA, if you're caught with a single undersized fish you lose your boat, car and any equipment involved. Turns out that meaning what you say wrt regulations works.

And I'm not slagging off just Labour, any party that wants to tax water can get fucked.

[Ocean1]

... it's an old boys club here and they all piss in each others pockets.

Aye. Given the solid monopoly they have and the continual trickle of rumors like that it's hard not to be deeply suspicious of many local/regional council eh?

I'd like to see a breakdown of the costs that put a developed section on the market for $400k for example. A mate has developed complete suburbs and reckons $100k is about it, and that's including the council's extremely inflated charges.

[oldrider]

Aye. Given the solid monopoly they have and the continual trickle of rumors like that it's hard not to be deeply suspicious of many local/regional council eh?

I'd like to see a breakdown of the costs that put a developed section on the market for $400k for example. A mate has developed complete suburbs and reckons $100k is about it, and that's including the council's extremely inflated charges.

I think your mate has got it right - maybe a wee bit light but depends on location of course.

[T.W.R]

Yep, all true. If the progression of the last few years continues I'm expecting more and bigger fires here this summer.
The basic reason for the National govt appointing commissioners to run Ecan was that the cockies moaned they couldn't get enough water allocations.
So now we have the situation where water is over allocated to fuck - and we have dry rivers.
Then it follows that stream maintenance isn't done - no water in them - and when we do get rain, we get floods.
What a fuckup.
Locally, I'm told that the River Committee responsible for the stream maintenance has been playing brinkmanship. They get a small subsidy from SDC but have been neglecting work to try and squeeze more out of the Council when they see floods....The old boys club again...

Come Late January through to March it'll be a tinderbox locally, but don't worry the arrogant bloody farmers will continue their burn-offs and plead naivety when things get out of hand :yes:
Ashburton district is a fucking National stronghold because of all the cockies, even bloody Shipley was/is based locally which is a laugh in it's self; they're classic failed farmers that got paid off their farm in the 80s by the government when 99% of farms were thriving :facepalm: yet half the local idiots think the sun shines out their arses :pinch:
It's definitely the classic "old boys club" around here due to the generations of farm bred muppets who have now weaseled their way into positions of authority, just white collar inbreeding.....you can't say much about anyone as they're all bloody related some way or another :crazy:

The minor rivers are as bad if not worse than the Selwyn, the Ashburton itself, the Hinds, Orari, Opihi etc are all well n truly fucked already and the so-called river & stream maintenance is a joke and the committees overseeing things are laden full of farmers too :yes:

Unfortunately having been in a few jobs over the years that feed directly off the farming community I've seen 1st hand exactly how arrogant & brazen the majority of them are towards the environment and the regulations that are supposed to police their actions, they just thumb their noses at it & flaunt the rules and play hard-up when things get a bit tough :oi-grr:

[T.W.R]

Aye. Given the solid monopoly they have and the continual trickle of rumors like that it's hard not to be deeply suspicious of many local/regional council eh?

I'd like to see a breakdown of the costs that put a developed section on the market for $400k for example. A mate has developed complete suburbs and reckons $100k is about it, and that's including the council's extremely inflated charges.

No rumors here locally..it's a fact!

It was a shade under $20k here to get a section re-surveyed about 10yrs ago & about $5k to get power & water to the boundary for an undeveloped section that would be on the market for $65-80k here in the township.
I'm on the verge of addressing that situation at the moment as I well into the process of upping roots and selling the property off but the dilemma is that I either sell as one lot or sell the back paddock that is marked out as 3 (1000m sq +) separate sections and to be honest I don't know if I can be bothered with all the headaches involved

[Swoop]

To be fair i understand it was a swamp Kauri Digger rather than a farmer

Yeah, I knew that when I posted it.

Pondering this again last night...
Everyone knows that the pipeline is shut down at the moment, so I was wondering how many farmers have put up a small shed over the pipe, dug down and then drilled and tapped a valve into the side of the pipe?

Surely a cow-cocky would have done this? Free diesel / petrol / JET-A1...



Yes, farmers need to lift their game with farming activities. NOT demanding a handout when it's too wet or too dry either. You got into fucking farming knowing the risks. Mother Nature is the boss, so get used to it.



Businesses now how could they be charged...

We have a distinct difference between two concerns which are lumped into one "crisis".
Farmers sucking water out of the ground to water the cows, rinse the potatoes / carrots, etc, and
Companies extracting water for bottling purposes and sending overseas.

Perhaps those companies who want to extract water should pay an "establishment fee" for access and the ability to conduct their business? Not the reportedly $100- to the local council like at present, but more like 100-200k?
OR, they are required to locate their business on the West Coast (helps employment and has plenty of H2O to spare).

Problem sorted! DING! Next problem?

[James Deuce]

They certainly deserve to comply with the rules they operate under.

They probably don't deserve to have a bunch of politically popular rules dumped on them at their cost overnight.All I want is for them to wear deodorant and take their shit encrusted gumboots off when they go into the supermarket. Until then, they deserve everything they get.

[jasonu]

Ironic, coming from KBs stupidest member.

Did someone mention Cassina???

[Ocean1]

We have a distinct difference between two concerns which are lumped into one "crisis".
Farmers sucking water out of the ground to water the cows, rinse the potatoes / carrots, etc, and
Companies extracting water for bottling purposes and sending overseas.

Perhaps those companies who want to extract water should pay an "establishment fee" for access and the ability to conduct their business? Not the reportedly $100- to the local council like at present, but more like 100-200k?
OR, they are required to locate their business on the West Coast (helps employment and has plenty of H2O to spare).

Problem sorted! DING! Next problem?

Correct. I can only see one water bottling outfit, (just) on the Canterbury plains, in Tai Tapu. They generally want to set up where supply isn't a problem. Looks to be a lot in Orks though.

Pack the lot of 'em off down to Balclutha, 600 cubic meters per second is enough alpine goodness to fill any possible market. They could send enough bottles up the road to water no end of cows without making an appreciable dent in it.

Well, you'd have to filter the pristine alpine eels out...

To be fair someone did propose sitting a supertanker in one of the fiords to suck up an almost unmeasurably tiny percentage of west coast water and flog that off to Japanese commuters, but what passes for environmentalism hereabouts waved the RMA under their nose and told them to fuck off. So it's not as if environmentally sound, technically advanced and commercially workable solutions haven't been attempted.

[Voltaire]

Nicked from Herald.
Rather than moan about how much butter is.....and the 'look over there' pipe leak.





1.Why is our GDP per capita so low?

Our GDP is only about US $37,000 per person. Australia's is $48,000, the United States is $57,000, and Ireland's is $69,000.

If you want more wealth to go around, then you need strategies to increase GDP per capita, yet our political parties only seem capable of reactive redistribution measures like tax, tax credits, and welfare (the "ambulances at the bottom of the cliff"). Like all things in life, if you don't fix the root cause, you don't truly fix anything.

2. Why is our Government debt so high?

Sometimes it's good to borrow, but $86 billion Government debt with $4 billion in interest penalties per year seems far too high. That's $4 billion dollars of our money servicing loans rather than the people of New Zealand. I might be missing some smart thinking here, but like all of these questions, I'd still like an explanation from those making these decisions on our behalf.

3.Why do we let big foreign companies avoid tax?

A Herald report last year suggested that multinationals like ExxonMobil, Apple and Google are getting away with not paying $500 million of taxes each year. $500 million could fund a number of essential community projects (or reduce individual tax rates), so why hasn't our Government closed this tax loophole like they have in Australia?

4. Why can foreigners buy our houses (especially when we can't buy theirs)?


It's the simple question we all ask at home, but no politician ever gives us a straight answer. I suspect the truth lies in trade deals with double standards. On a related note, why do we allow foreign companies to control our natural resources like bottled water, and why aren't company ownership rules consistent between countries?

5. Why has net migration septupled (x7)?

For 20 years from 1993 to 2013, New Zealand's net migration averaged 10,767 per year. Our infrastructure seemed to manage ok. But in the four years since 2013 it has risen to an incredible 41,000, 60,000, 69,000, and now 72,000. You have to add a further 28,000 net births on top of this figure too.
Housing, transport, schools, hospitals, and the environment clearly can't keep up and are only getting further behind. So why does the Government let in such unsustainable numbers? And why is Labour only willing to reduce this number to 70,000 - 80,000 new arrivals each year? Love him or hate him, Winston seems to be the only politician who faces these facts.

6. Why haven't we got electronic voting yet?

Every business communicates electronically, yet our central and local governments still operate an archaic paper and postal system. A general election looks to cost about $35 million, and we already know a referendum costs about $26 million. Not only would electronic voting significantly reduce voting costs, but it would mean our politicians would have more frequent and accurate insights into what Kiwis really want. If digital market insight is a no-brainer for running a business, why isn't it a no-brainer for running a country?

7. Why do ex MPs get perks for life?

We don't get perks for life just for doing our jobs, so why should MPs? Given the recent churn of politicians, and longer life expectancy, this will get a lot more expensive going forward too!

Some of you may already know some of these answers, but most of the country will not.

My challenge to all of our political parties with one week remaining is to confront the issues head on and be honest. As crazy as it sounds, some people do still vote based on policy and integrity.

[Ocean1]

All I want is for them to wear deodorant and take their shit encrusted gumboots off when they go into the supermarket. Until then, they deserve everything they get.

Spare a thought for those of us living here in the civilised world, with rotund 24 year old beneficiaries in cow print onesies arguing with the manager about whether the six pack vodka shooters sale is still on.

[James Deuce]

Spare a thought for those of us living here in the civilised world, with rotund 24 year old beneficiaries in cow print onesies arguing with the manager about whether the six pack vodka shooters sale is still on.
Aaargh, thought spared to the point of trying to empty brain of horrible imagery. Thanks. A. Lot.

[Woodman]

:facepalm:

Twat............

Edit... No. You fuck off shit for brains.

[husaberg]

We have a distinct difference between two concerns which are lumped into one "crisis".
Farmers sucking water out of the ground to water the cows, rinse the potatoes / carrots, etc, and
Companies extracting water for bottling purposes and sending overseas.

Perhaps those companies who want to extract water should pay an "establishment fee" for access and the ability to conduct their business? Not the reportedly $100- to the local council like at present, but more like 100-200k?
OR, they are required to locate their business on the West Coast (helps employment and has plenty of H2O to spare).

Problem sorted! DING! Next problem?

there is the rub
cows drink about 70 liters a day drystock about 50L... not so bad
but with dairy cleaning up after milking is about the same per cow. on top of the first 50-70
Irrigation is an vital ingrediant in most farming and horticulture to make a product that is sold overseas.
thats a huge amount.
but then the water is removed (other than Butter and the meat)when it is sold overseas so its a bit complex.
Normally the waste water from the dairy factories is either returned to the river or the land.

[Voltaire]

Watched the leaders natter last night.

Mike Hoskings is a dick, he should stick to the radio where at least you don't have to see him.

I like Jacinda, she has a vision, Bill is more a Manager with a safe pair of hands.

Its a bit late now to talk about affordable housing but National along with a lot of other Western countries really dropped the

ball on this one.

Bill said " we have an open economy", Jacinda says why can foreigners buy up large here when we can't do the same?

Health is an easy one.... tell the likes of Coke, Maccers, BK,Nestle and the rest of them to fuck off with their sugary shit....its

killing us.

[caspernz]

I like Jacinda, she has a vision, Bill is more a Manager with a safe pair of hands.

Health is an easy one.... tell the likes of Coke, Maccers, BK,Nestle and the rest of them to fuck off with their sugary shit....its

killing us.

Jacinda may have a vision, but the team behind her is same old same old it seems. Bill is a bit boring, no denying that.

The health one, I like your thinking on fast food being targeted. But maybe we need to combine education and legislation on this one?

Not a fan of Winston as such, but you can't argue with him on mass immigration, look at the effect it's had.

[Ocean1]

Watched the leaders natter last night.

Mike Hoskings is a dick, he should stick to the radio where at least you don't have to see him.

I like Jacinda, she has a vision, Bill is more a Manager with a safe pair of hands.

Its a bit late now to talk about affordable housing but National along with a lot of other Western countries really dropped the

ball on this one.

Bill said " we have an open economy", Jacinda says why can foreigners buy up large here when we can't do the same?

Health is an easy one.... tell the likes of Coke, Maccers, BK,Nestle and the rest of them to fuck off with their sugary shit....its

killing us.

Housing prices we've done to death, it's down to the scope creep cause by telling ourselves that we need double glazing, insulation etc etc etc etc. And the fact that there's no better investment returns for those cashed up boomers to stash their retirement savings. Why is that, by the way? When Kiwisaver can earn 10% plus, why is it that nobody can link those returns to individual investors? Maybe that's where a govt can get some leverage...

And I'm surprised Labour stuck with attacking health, especially directly at funding, which has, according to most observers gone up in gdp per capita for decades.

As usual they look exclusively at the consequences of individual life choices and demand they be fixed, never mind the cost and never mind that money can't fix the root cause.

[Ocean1]

there is the rub
cows drink about 70 liters a day drystock about 50L... not so bad
but with dairy cleaning up after milking is about the same per cow. on top of the first 50-70
Irrigation is an vital ingrediant in most farming and horticulture to make a product that is sold overseas.
thats a huge amount.
but then the water is removed (other than Butter and the meat)when it is sold overseas so its a bit complex.
Normally the waste water from the dairy factories is either returned to the river or the land.

Good article: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/97044135/pattrick-smellie-quality-not-quantity-the-real-water-debate

[Swoop]

Health is an easy one.... tell the likes of Coke, Maccers, BK,Nestle and the rest of them to fuck off

While you are at it, tell everyone who has a bit of a sniffle then goes to the hospital, to fuck off as well.
Cunts who should go to their GP instead of filling up a seat/bed need to be shown the door so that others in greater need get treated.

[Voltaire]

While you are at it, tell everyone who has a bit of a sniffle then goes to the hospital, to fuck off as well.
Cunts who should go to their GP instead of filling up a seat/bed need to be shown the door so that others in greater need get treated.

Breath test people turning up to A and E on the weekends and charge them.

[James Deuce]

While you are at it, tell everyone who has a bit of a sniffle then goes to the hospital, to fuck off as well.
Cunts who should go to their GP instead of filling up a seat/bed need to be shown the door so that others in greater need get treated.
Takes three weeks to get an appointment with GP. I don't go with a sniffle. Last time i went I had a DVT in my leg, whihc wife the nurse immediately diagnosed. GP said next appt available 3 weeks away, go to After Hours. There is no after hours in Masterton, it burnt down (has been rebuilt). Went to emergency in Masterton got sent away. Drove to the Hutt Hospital and went ot ED and was given a pill the size of a horse and admitted for a night. It doesn't work the way you think it does. Health system is fucked.

[Swoop]

Breath test people turning up to A and E on the weekends and charge them.

An excellent idea!
I know of a few nurses who would endorse that.

[Ocean1]

While you are at it, tell everyone who has a bit of a sniffle then goes to the hospital, to fuck off as well.
Cunts who should go to their GP instead of filling up a seat/bed need to be shown the door so that others in greater need get treated.

:laugh: Dude, you have no idea, the negative press from that practically guarantees a note from the ministry effectively removing that option.

Not that the staff there are likely to turn anyone down anyway. It'd be nice if they could at least claim the GP subsidy instead of draining their own budget, but attempts to actually set up GP facilities on site in order to do just that were quickly shut down from upstairs. Rumor has it GPNZ got into the minister's ear.

Get used to it, for as long as there's subsidies there will be people abusing them, and other people defending their right to do so.

[Ocean1]

Takes three weeks to get an appointment with GP. I don't go with a sniffle. Last time i went I had a DVT in my leg, whihc wife the nurse immediately diagnosed. GP said next appt available 3 weeks away, go to After Hours. There is no after hours in Masterton, it burnt down (has been rebuilt). Went to emergency in Masterton got sent away. Drove to the Hutt Hospital and went ot ED and was given a pill the size of a horse and admitted for a night. It doesn't work the way you think it does. Health system is fucked.

Yes. Masterton in particular is a problem.

[Ocean1]

Breath test people turning up to A and E on the weekends and charge them.

Or at least sent every admittance a proforma invoice showing the actual cost of their treatment.

I have zero hope that that would reduce any of the hype about the supposed lack of funding, but it might at least make the staff more aware of where the costs are.

[Swoop]

:laugh: Dude, you have no idea, the negative press from that practically guarantees a note from the ministry effectively removing that option.

Yes, it would piss a few whiney arsed people off. Fuck em!

[James Deuce]

Yes. Masterton in particular is a problem.
GP is Ropata in the Hutt.

[James Deuce]

:laugh: Dude, you have no idea, the negative press from that practically guarantees a note from the ministry effectively removing that option.

Not that the staff there are likely to turn anyone down anyway. It'd be nice if they could at least claim the GP subsidy instead of draining their own budget, but attempts to actually set up GP facilities on site in order to do just that were quickly shut down from upstairs. Rumor has it GPNZ got into the minister's ear.

Get used to it, for as long as there's subsidies there will be people abusing them, and other people defending their right to do so.
GMS is an example of why NZ shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the least corrupt tables.

Just one example, mind.

[Ocean1]

GMS is an example of why NZ shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the least corrupt tables.

Just one example, mind.

NZ originally modeled it's developing public health system from the obvious source: Blighty's NHS.

AT the time overheated public expectations hadn't yet driven the inevitable scope creep explosion to quite the stratospheric budget it demands today.

Anyway, part of that process was consulting with GPs about their place in the wider public health strategy. The govt of the day wanted primary health included in a NHS style approach. The GPs wanted to remain private, charging what they could directly from the public, rather than having to rely on what the govt paid them.

Which is why you now have a hybrid system, where GPs and consultants are paid by both individual and public sources. Spot the problem yet?

And to rub salt into the festering fiscal hole there's a perception that we could improve efficiency by removing a bunch of non-medical staff from the system. When in fact that would remove what little protection the DHB's budget actually has from it's subcontracting consultants and from it's own employees, (often the very same individual).

[Ocean1]

GP is Ropata in the Hutt.

Change your doctor.

Seriously.

[Voltaire]

Or at least sent every admittance a proforma invoice showing the actual cost of their treatment.

I have zero hope that that would reduce any of the hype about the supposed lack of funding, but it might at least make the staff more aware of where the costs are.


Instead of picking on the Farmers make the Alcohol suppliers pay for Alcohol related accidents, put an ACC levy on booze, y know nanny state stuff for the useless.

If you have not been busted for DIC, arrested or turned up at A and E you get it refunded.

[jasonu]

. It doesn't work the way you think it does. Health system is fucked.

I found out that one a few years ago when dad got terminally ill then a year later with Mum. Big lesson, even though you spend all your working life paying into a system that funds the 'free' healthcare, FFS don't have a nasty turn after 5pm on a Friday and think the system you paid into will actually look after you!!!!!

[mada]

NZ's health system is not third world by a mile.

The problem it faces (and facing most other Western countries) is that there is infinite demand for a limited resource and a fair number of users have unrealistic expectations of what their paying of taxes (which are some of the lowest in the Western World) should provide for them. Be it pensions, social welfare, EQC, ACC, subsidised medications etc.

The longer people live for - the more complex their health needs become, the more resources they require, the more pressure gets placed on access. There are always going to be trade offs.

In terms of access to GP's making stuff free (eg. free access for kids) actually exacerbates problems, as you often encourage minor presentations that are self-limiting and the worried well attend taking up space for people who actually need to be seen.

The future will be compulsory health insurance. Don't really see anyway around it.

[James Deuce]

Change your doctor.

Seriously.
4 year waiting list in Greytown. One of the Drs there is seriously fucked in the head.
Carterton has a 2.5 year waiting list and I trust them less than I do Greytown fuckhhead. Directly responsible for my Father-in-law's hideously slow death.
With the health issues in my family, moving GPs means losing every bit of history, potentially fatal in one case and potentially debilitating in another.
Hobson's choice.

[James Deuce]

NZ's health system is not third world by a mile.

The problem it faces (and facing most other Western countries) is that there is infinite demand for a limited resource and a fair number of users have unrealistic expectations of what their paying of taxes (which are some of the lowest in the Western World) should provide for them. Be it pensions, social welfare, EQC, ACC, subsidised medications etc.

The longer people live for - the more complex their health needs become, the more resources they require, the more pressure gets placed on access. There are always going to be trade offs.

In terms of access to GP's making stuff free (eg. free access for kids) actually exacerbates problems, as you often encourage minor presentations that are self-limiting and the worried well attend taking up space for people who actually need to be seen.

The future will be compulsory health insurance. Don't really see anyway around it.
If you can't access it, it's rating is less than third world.

Compulsory insurance just means a society willing to kill it's citizens for being "failures". The US spends 17.7% of its GDP on healthcare. We're 10% less than that. Most of the US costs are bound up in the artificial excess of the US medical insurance system. It is NOT an option.

[mada]

If you can't access it, it's rating is less than third world.

Compulsory insurance just means a society willing to kill it's citizens for being "failures". The US spends 17.7% of its GDP on healthcare. We're 10% less than that. Most of the US costs are bound up in the artificial excess of the US medical insurance system. It is NOT an option.

By that definition of access, no country in the world appears to have above third world health care.

Problems with access and longer wait times are the trade offs that we get when the number of people living with chronic conditions is constantly expanding and everything is free.

The US model is one extreme end of the insurance model. Many European models (Netherlands) operate on a social insurance model which they find successful in improving access. But there is greater cost.

The view that our health system is third world or poorly performing compared to overseas is as imaginary as the one that we pay high taxes.

It's pretty simple maths - you can't expect better access when there are more of us around needing stuff but paying less for it.

[mada]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/95722960/slack-patients-draining-dhb-resources-with-noshows


"Patients skipping appointments without cancelling are likely costing MidCentral District Health Board hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
The problem also slows down access to vital medical care for the no-show patients and others still waiting, and is a bugbear hospital staff are itching to combat. About 7800 appointments were skipped last year by people not required to stay at a DHB-run facility, hospital services operations director Lyn Horgan said."


If there was a co-payment or fine for not turning up how many would have skipped?

[Ocean1]

GP is Ropata in the Hutt.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/95722960/slack-patients-draining-dhb-resources-with-noshows

If there was a co-payment or fine for not turning up how many would have skipped?

Speaking of which, I was at Ropata yesterday. Took me about 15 min to find a park, and then 10 min to walk.

While looking for parks it became obvious that about a dozen old ladies in Toyota Yaris's were doing laps of the block, slowly becoming more and more agitated. :laugh:

Now, I have an arrangement with my doc: he doesn't make me wait more than 10 min and I don't punch him in the throat. Nonetheless, when I left at least two of those old ladies were still doing laps. :lol:

[James Deuce]

By that definition of access, no country in the world appears to have above third world health care.

Problems with access and longer wait times are the trade offs that we get when the number of people living with chronic conditions is constantly expanding and everything is free.

The US model is one extreme end of the insurance model. Many European models (Netherlands) operate on a social insurance model which they find successful in improving access. But there is greater cost.

The view that our health system is third world or poorly performing compared to overseas is as imaginary as the one that we pay high taxes.

It's pretty simple maths - you can't expect better access when there are more of us around needing stuff but paying less for it.
Dodged the issue there. We aren't paying less and we do pay insurance. We all have an NHI number. The National Government embarked on deliberately running down DHB Support, public health and community support initiatives in 2008. The yanked all funding for preschool disability support the day after the election in 2008. In was reinstated after National party members with disabled family members kicked up a proper stink.

You can't access services in NZ because in many cases, such as paediatric neurology and oncology, we simply won't pay consultants what they are worth and that = people dying unnecessarily of treatable conditions. It's started to show up in provincial centres, especially oncology and adults are dying so that becomes a story. Unless you've had to battle with local and centralised funding authorities to get medical services for a close family member especially a child, which they are loathe to spend money on, you honestly do not know how bad the underfunding on NZ's health system is.

[mada]

Dodged the issue there. We aren't paying less and we do pay insurance. We all have an NHI number. The National Government embarked on deliberately running down DHB Support, public health and community support initiatives in 2008. The yanked all funding for preschool disability support the day after the election in 2008. In was reinstated after National party members with disabled family members kicked up a proper stink.

You can't access services in NZ because in many cases, such as paediatric neurology and oncology, we simply won't pay consultants what they are worth and that = people dying unnecessarily of treatable conditions. It's started to show up in provincial centres, especially oncology and adults are dying so that becomes a story. Unless you've had to battle with local and centralised funding authorities to get medical services for a close family member especially a child, which they are loathe to spend money on, you honestly do not know how bad the underfunding on NZ's health system is.

I can see your frustrations and get where you are coming from. But having viewed overseas health care and what it entails versus the NZ system, I still think we are very fortunate.

With any funding in health someone will unfortunately miss out and I do not envy those having to make such calls and feel sympathy for those who miss out. I certainly agree there is room for improvement - but do not think it is realistically possible to meet everyone's expectations of what affordable and accessible quality health care looks like.

Tried to point out that the problem with access stems from more than just underfunding but other factors such as expectations, views on entitlements, societies views on priorities etc.

[mada]

Now, I have an arrangement with my doc: he doesn't make me wait more than 10 min and I don't punch him in the throat. Nonetheless, when I left at least two of those old ladies were still doing laps. :lol:

:laugh::laugh:

Does he offer a free PR exam each consult?

[Stylo]

I'm thinking or, was thinking about voting for Labour. Been a National supporter for years, thought a change would be a good thing and why not ?

But, there's an elephant in the room .

Kelvin Davies. If he is Jacinda's back up, or number two I'll stay away. At least Simon William ( Bill ) English is a safe pair of hands.

Kelvin Davies is an idiot, he's only number two because he's a token Maori. Give me a break.

[Ocean1]

:laugh::laugh:

Does he offer a free PR exam each consult?

No. But he must be about 12, so I feel obliged to point out how the rest of the world finds it necessary to run their businesses.

We're slowly getting there, I haven't punched him in the throat for months.

[sidecar bob]

I'm thinking or, was thinking about voting for Labour. Been a National supporter for years, thought a change would be a good thing and why not ?

But, there's an elephant in the room .

Kelvin Davies. If he is Jacinda's back up, or number two I'll stay away. At least Simon William ( Bill ) English is a safe pair of hands.

Kelvin Davies is an idiot, he's only number two because he's a token Maori. Give me a break.

Well done. Labour have absolutely no talent at all, including the tooth fairy. She has a brief appeal, which as you can see by the polls, has already started to fade.

[Woodman]

I actually like Jaccinda. She comes across very well and seems like an alright sorta chick and I agree with her water royalties policy for foreign companies.

Won't vote for her though because voting for a celebrity means you are a stupid fuckhead.

Vote National

[Ocean1]

I actually like Jaccinda. She comes across very well and seems like an alright sorta chick and I agree with her water royalties policy for foreign companies.

Won't vote for her though because voting for a celebrity means you are a stupid fuckhead.

Vote National

Yes, she's a much more attractive union mouthpiece than the previous few.

But in my experience no union has ever done anything but attempt to drag everyone down to lowest common denominator.

[Woodman]

Yes, she's a much more attractive union mouthpiece than the previous few.

But in my experience no union has ever done anything but attempt to drag everyone down to lowest common denominator.

Absolutely agree with you re unions.

[Swoop]

I'm thinking or, was thinking about voting for Labour.
But, there's an elephant in the room .

Kelvin Davies is an idiot, he's only number two because he's a token Maori. Give me a break.

Glad that others are seeing what (who's) behind the facade of the "NEW IMPROVED!" front person.
Some shocking deadwood. Davies seems to be more popular than Hone in the Northern Maori seat of Te Tai Tokerau and it would be nice to see Hone fuck off permanently from the political scene.

[Voltaire]

So who gets bumped when the (star) dust settles and Winston wants a top job? Paula ?, Kelvin ?

[Swoop]

So who gets bumped when the (star) dust settles and Winston wants a top job? Paula ?, Kelvin ?
Taxcinda wouldn't stand a chance of keeping her seat. Relegated to 2nd seat in the caucus.

[James Deuce]

Glad that others are seeing what (who's) behind the facade of the "NEW IMPROVED!" front person.
Some shocking deadwood. Davies seems to be more popular than Hone in the Northern Maori seat of Te Tai Tokerau and it would be nice to see Hone fuck off permanently from the political scene.
Hone is good value compared to Kelvin.

[Brian d marge]

Les Représentans du peuple se rendront à leur destination, investis de la plus haute confiance et de pouvoirs illimités. Ils vont déployer un grand caractère. Ils doivent envisager qu’une grande responsabilité est la suite inséparable d’un grand pouvoir. Ce sera à leur énergie, à leur courage, et sur-tout à leur prudence, qu’ils devront leur succès et leur gloire.

Gammas get to run and play .......... With that ( election ) result there is no way there are Deltas in NZ ..... , NO WAY.

[oldrider]

Bit of a damp squib really - Maori deserting the Maori Party to flee back to Labour - what a crock - Labour is a freaking joke in it's self! :nya:

Now Winston is "bell of the ball" and right on cue staring as Winston the fat kid on the pool diving board - look at me! - look at me! - look at me! :facepalm:

Vote of confidence in Bill English and his team to carry on as the best of a very ordinary bunch - can't say I'm surprised or disappointed - even voted for it! :niceone:

[TheDemonLord]

Now Winston is "bell of the ball" and right on cue staring as Winston the fat kid on the pool diving board - look at me! - look at me! - look at me! :facepalm:

This actually really is starting to get on my Nerves.

It seems a perversion of Democratic principles that a Minority party get handed power and influence that arguably it has not earned.

It also seems a pervesion of the principle of MMP - to stop one person from attaining power, but yet again, we have old willy Winston in a position to get his own way.

[oldrider]

This actually really is starting to get on my Nerves.

It seems a perversion of Democratic principles that a Minority party get handed power and influence that arguably it has not earned.

It also seems a pervesion of the principle of MMP - to stop one person from attaining power, but yet again, we have old willy Winston in a position to get his own way.

Election over and we still have no idea as to who is to govern? - We have given permission to a group to inflict their will upon us! - Watch this space! :scratch:

[jasonu]

Election over and we still have no idea as to who is to govern? - We have given permission to a group to inflict their will upon us! - Watch this space! :scratch:

Track down the cunts that voted for MMP. It's their fault.

[Berries]

Mods - Can we now merge this thread with the back water shit hole one?

[Voltaire]

Its going to be great entertainment for weeks and years.

I'm picking a Labour/Greens/NZ First Govt for the most viewer bang for buck.

Ron Marks can be Deputy PM as he plays Country and Western which will keep the Farmers happy at 1 to 2 cents a litre :lol:

[F5 Dave]

Les Représentans du peuple se rendront à leur destination, investis de la plus haute confiance et de pouvoirs illimités. Ils vont déployer un grand caractère. Ils doivent envisager qu’une grande responsabilité est la suite inséparable d’un grand pouvoir. Ce sera à leur énergie, à leur courage, et sur-tout à leur prudence, qu’ils devront leur succès et leur gloire.

Gammas get to run and play .......... With that ( election ) result there is no way there are Deltas in NZ ..... , NO WAY.

Enough Islamist talk there bub. Now the Glorious one has now returned to the seat of power we won't have to put up with Johnny Foreigners nonsense.

Why we were quite knocking back the G&Ts at the RSA on Saturday night and Cynthia the bar lass hitched her skirt up quite high for the occasion.

[James Deuce]

Why we were quite knocking back the G&Ts at the RSA on Saturday night and Cynthia the bar lass hitched her skirt up quite high for the occasion.
I bet that got the embers in your pipe flaming.

[oldrider]

ODT (Otago daily Times) looks as if it was all geared up for a Labour win FFS! - you would think they had won as it is presented. :yawn:

Bloody socialist paper tried desperately to rail something up on Taxcinda's fresh new tooth-fairy look! :rolleyes: ...... :no:

[HenryDorsetCase]

This actually really is starting to get on my Nerves.

It seems a perversion of Democratic principles that a Minority party get handed power and influence that arguably it has not earned.

It also seems a pervesion of the principle of MMP - to stop one person from attaining power, but yet again, we have old willy Winston in a position to get his own way.

its proportional REPRESENTATION not proportional POWERSHARING. So whoever stitches together the magic 61 seats gets to put whatever weak-ass legislative agenda together.

Its hardly a hearty mandate though is it? And like you say, Winston in the box seat. He will extract maximum concessions from whoever he is with.

Personally I am disappointed that the Maori party are not returning.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Track down the cunts that voted for MMP. It's their fault.

I voted STV.

[HenryDorsetCase]

ODT (Otago daily Times) looks as if it was all geared up for a Labour win FFS! - you would think they had won as it is presented. :yawn:

Bloody socialist paper tried desperately to rail something up on Taxcinda's fresh new tooth-fairy look! :rolleyes: ...... :no:

What the hell are you smoking? Are there more than one Otago Daily Times? Because it is a Tory/conservative/rural rag all day every day. The owners are part of the tartan mafia.

[jasonu]

I was hoping for a labour win. The carnage would have been entertaining.

[Voltaire]

I was hoping for a labour win. The carnage would have been entertaining.

Fortunately you have got Donald to provide your entertainment.:facepalm:

[Ocean1]

I voted STV.

Ditto. Cutting fucking cards is more likely to get you a government that a majority voted for than MMP.

The prospect of a government that excludes the party the most people voted for is a fucking joke.

[James Deuce]

I voted STV.
Yes, me too. The education process around proportional representation was a fucking joke, left up to condescending interest groups led by arrogant twats who snarled and poured scorn on anyone who didn't get their particular point of view or grasp the basics of their proposed system. Bit like a motorcycle lobby group.

[Grumph]

Yes, me too. The education process around proportional representation was a fucking joke, left up to condescending interest groups led by arrogant twats who snarled and poured scorn on anyone who didn't get their particular point of view or grasp the basics of their proposed system. Bit like a motorcycle lobby group.

Like a motorcycle lobby group in that the STV advocates would only allow solos whereas the PR people were happy to accept sidecars....

I suspect that if we'd got STV, it would still have been situation normal - no-one happy.

[oldrider]

What the hell are you smoking? Are there more than one Otago Daily Times? Because it is a Tory/conservative/rural rag all day every day. The owners are part of the tartan mafia.

How long is it since you actually read an ODT? it's red as the old "Standard" that I used to have to go and get for my father back in the day!

I voted for STV as well. - MMP was hoisted upon us by slight of hand IMO. :rolleyes:

[Drew]

FPP.


Fuck all the new age shit.

[Brian d marge]

Yes, me too. The education process around proportional representation was a fucking joke, left up to condescending interest groups led by arrogant twats who snarled and poured scorn on anyone who didn't get their particular point of view or grasp the basics of their proposed system. Bit like a motorcycle lobby group.
Identity politics , me , me , me !

[mashman]

Identity politics , money , money , money ! Buy who you wish to be today.

Edited for accuracy purposes.

[Swoop]

FPP.


Fuck all the new age shit.

The very worst option.
It is just like a see-saw between two big options.

Essentially a dictatorship that gets voted out every three years because the cunts in power have no clue what they are up to and can't smell the stench of their own shit.

[TheDemonLord]

FPP.


Fuck all the new age shit.

Pussy.

Fight to the death between the Leaders.

[mashman]

The very worst option.
It is just like a see-saw between two big options.

Essentially a dictatorship that gets voted out every three years because the cunts in power have no clue what they are up to and can't smell the stench of their own shit.

Same outcome as MMP/STV then. It's called politics after all.

[R650R]

Not so much a dictatoirship... I'd say modern politics is more like a three year infomercial that you can never switch off.

Continually they tell you how good it is and wait there's more.... but the cheap shit your promised never arrives.....
And when it does arrive its outdated ideas copied from somewhere else....

Thnak god labour didn't win.... lets do this... Yeah NAH darling the nation said....

[gsxr]

The end result of the election night vote count was the majority voted against National although they got the most votes as a party.
Does that mean any party tht goes into a coalition this time with national spell a death knell for them next election as occurred with Act and Maori party this election

[Grumph]

The end result of the election night vote count was the majority voted against National although they got the most votes as a party.
Does that mean any party tht goes into a coalition this time with national spell a death knell for them next election as occurred with Act and Maori party this election

Quite possibly....
But I'd also point out that as yet, no-one has won the election......If you define winning as being sworn in as the Government.
Celebrations - on either side - are a tad premature.

[Ocean1]

The end result of the election night vote count was the majority voted against National although they got the most votes as a party.
Does that mean any party tht goes into a coalition this time with national spell a death knell for them next election as occurred with Act and Maori party this election

But nowhere near as many as voted against labour.

All a waste of time, turns out that one vote is more important than all of ours.

[Swoop]

Same outcome as MMP/STV then.

No, the outcome would be different since the smaller parties would be whittled away and a person's vote moved onto their next choice.
The overall outcome would still retain some representation of the public desire but with fewer voters dissatisfied.

Well, apart from the leftists. They whine and bitch about anything.

[nerrrd]

But nowhere near as many as voted against labour.

All a waste of time, turns out that one vote is more important than all of ours.

Not voting for someone isn't the same as voting against them. All it says is you think the person you voted for is the best option. Isn't that the underlying premise behind STV?

I maintain that the most stable coalition option (and the one with the most votes by a country mile) is National/Labour.

But they won't talk to each other because they're mired in the old FPP / Government vs Opposition / left vs right mind set which should have been dumped with FPP, but apparently never will be (thanks to politicians and media who apparently don't have the motivation or the imagination to look beyond it).

[TheDemonLord]

I maintain that the most stable coalition option (and the one with the most votes by a country mile) is National/Labour.

But they won't talk to each other because they're mired in the old FPP / Government vs Opposition / left vs right mind set which should have been dumped with FPP, but apparently never will be (thanks to politicians and media who apparently don't have the motivation or the imagination to look beyond it).

I think you are underestimating just how fundamentally important a powerful opposition party is to a functioning social Democracy.

[jasonu]

Quite possibly....
But I'd also point out that as yet, no-one has won the election......If you define winning as being sworn in as the Government.
Celebrations - on either side - are a tad premature.

What a shit system.

[jasonu]

Not voting for someone isn't the same as voting against them.

My vote for Trump was actually my vote against Hillary Clinton.

[F5 Dave]

How's that working out?

True democracy would have us voting on issues not for figurehead puppets that have to tread a line of strategic maneuvers to stay in power and keep the funding.

Of course the great unwashed can't be trusted to get that right all the time. We need some strong charismatic leader to do that for us. I was of course joking with my Winston line.

Vote Axekill.

damn predictive text.

[Grumph]

What a shit system.

You would appear to be from the "now" generation - something potentially this serious is worth waiting for.
Bet you wanted to open all your presents as soon as you saw them...





My vote for Trump was actually my vote against Hillary Clinton.

Well you got instant results - shit flying in the first 100 days plus more personal spending as prez than anyone previously.
Take a knee and do what most of your neighbours are doing - pray he doesn't light the fuse.....

[Brian d marge]

How's that working out?

True democracy would have us voting on issues not for figurehead puppets that have to tread a line of strategic maneuvers to stay in power and keep the funding.

Of course the great unwashed can't be trusted to get that right all the time. We need some strong charismatic leader to do that for us. I was of course joking with my Winston line.

Vote Axekill.

damn predictive text.Yes , and we want the Sudetenland land back

Me , I would settle for an informed populace.. not too much to ask ..

Sent from my BGO-DL09 using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

Not voting for someone isn't the same as voting against them. All it says is you think the person you voted for is the best option. Isn't that the underlying premise behind STV?

I maintain that the most stable coalition option (and the one with the most votes by a country mile) is National/Labour.

But they won't talk to each other because they're mired in the old FPP / Government vs Opposition / left vs right mind set which should have been dumped with FPP, but apparently never will be (thanks to politicians and media who apparently don't have the motivation or the imagination to look beyond it).

Yes. Exactly. I was pointing out that the claim that because most people voted against national that then somehow becomes a mandate for the collection of left leaning parties to assume government is farcical.

I'd personally quite like a nat/green alliance. Minus the rampant Marxist bullshit that's pretty much destroyed any chance the greens had in environmental advocacy to date.


Edit.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/national-news/96402130/Damien-Grant-The-National-Government-a-Labour-PM-would-be-proud-to-lead

[mashman]

No, the outcome would be different since the smaller parties would be whittled away and a person's vote moved onto their next choice.
The overall outcome would still retain some representation of the public desire but with fewer voters dissatisfied.

Well, apart from the leftists. They whine and bitch about anything.

MMP is FPPx2. Once for the candidate, once for the party. It's rare that STV bucks the trend of who ends up in parliament, as it usually ends up doing nothing but deciding which list member will be MP for the electorate doesn't it?. Whoever "wins" forms the government, no matter what. It should be National. After all, it'll be the "same" faces that make up parliament, each voting according to their party's preference and so on and so forth. That's what I mean by the outcome being the same. The methodology is irrelevant where, as you point out, whether National/Labour forms a government, almost half of the country will get pissed either way. Let National form the government. The biggest group spoke. They still have to push things through parliament. I'd much prefer they did that on an issue to issue basis instead of back scratching some minor party to get the numbers to push something through.

True... the left while whine about anything that's right.

[Swoop]

All it says is you think the person you voted for is the best option. Isn't that the underlying premise behind STV?
Essentially, yes.
Just that you put your preferred candidates on a ladder. As the voting is counted there will be a few of the candidates, who attracted fuck-all votes, eliminated and the vote then goes to the next on your ladder.

It eliminates the weirdo loonies who get 200votes and probably are a one-policy party attempting to represent the "Midnight Golfers wearing lycra" or something similar.




MMP is FPPx2.
Nope.

[jasonu]

How's that working out?

t.

Great mate. That cunt hillary didn't get in. Job done I'd say.

[mashman]

Nope.

Yup.

FPP
"Each voter has one vote to choose the MP they want to represent the electorate they live in."

MMP
"Each voter gets two votes.

The first vote is for the political party the voter chooses. This is called the party vote and largely decides the total number of seats each political party gets in Parliament.

The second vote is to choose the MP the voter wants to represent the electorate they live in. This is called the electorate vote. The candidate who gets the most votes wins. They do not have to get more than half the votes."

[oldrider]

The majority of NZ'rs are too mentally lazy and politically inept to make the best out of the STV system - this MMP farce is about all NZ could manage! :scratch:

Game over! :thud:

[ellipsis]

...let's start a thread on Religion or Oil or Waving...everyone will know that their post/opinion is infallible and everyone will learn so much more...I can't wait.......

[jasonu]

You would appear to be from the "now" generation - something potentially this serious is worth waiting for.
Bet you wanted to open all your presents as soon as you saw them...
...

No mate. My point is that when the votes have been counted you still don't have a result and with MMP the result could be Labour, that didn't get any sort of majority vote, will be in power because they sucked Winstons cock better than National did. Plus it could still be several weeks before an actual result happnes. That is a shit system.

[Swoop]

Yup.

FPP
"Each voter has one vote to choose the MP they want to represent the electorate they live in."

MMP
"Each voter gets two votes.

The first vote is for the political party the voter chooses. This is called the party vote and largely decides the total number of seats each political party gets in Parliament.

The second vote is to choose the MP the voter wants to represent the electorate they live in. This is called the electorate vote. The candidate who gets the most votes wins. They do not have to get more than half the votes."

Yes, any 2yr old can figure that out.
How it is used and conducted under either FPP or STV creates differences.
FPP is "one giant pool of votes" essentially.
MMP creates the same pool in a different manner.
STV is a more technical approach, so obviously far too difficult for the average Kiwi voter. This method should provide a "happier" voter since their "people's party" vote was a waste of time and eliminated, but their Monster Raving Looney Party vote was then counted and the voter sees this person appearing in Parliament.

Not that a happy voter would be encountered, and certainly not of a leftist persuasion.

[James Deuce]

Yes, any 2yr old can figure that out.
How it is used and conducted under either FPP or STV creates differences.
FPP is "one giant pool of votes" essentially.
MMP creates the same pool in a different manner.
STV is a more technical approach, so obviously far too difficult for the average Kiwi voter. This method should provide a "happier" voter since their "people's party" vote was a waste of time and eliminated, but their Monster Raving Looney Party vote was then counted and the voter sees this person appearing in Parliament.

Not that a happy voter would be encountered, and certainly not of a leftist persuasion.
I don't know why people think there are left-leaning political parties in NZ. There aren't. There are centrist parties that have minor policy differences or no comparable policy at all to call different. Then there are single issues parties like Ban 1080 or NZ First. NZ First's single issue is of course, "How do we keep Winnie's nose in the trough?"

Labour is the party who threw workers under the bus. National is the party who then poured concrete on the bus with the workers under it and chiseled into the concrete, "Thou shalt not have relations with your employer. Nor shalt thou have any measure of financial security or future quality of life to plan for, unless you earn more than $500,000pa. Then thou shalt become one of the anointed ones and be allowed to form political parties called , "I am A TOP. Whee, Look at me Spin"."

I have no desire to distribute other people's wealth. But I also have no desire to point and laugh at those who's ability to have independence from state welfare was removed.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't know why people think there are left-leaning political parties in NZ. There aren't.

Then how do you explain all the Marxist rhetorhic from Labour, the Greens and the Maori Party? Some of them are radically Left wing. Hell, Jacinda wasn't sure if being called a Pretty Communist was a compliment or an Insult


There are centrist parties that have minor policy differences or no comparable policy at all to call different. Then there are single issues parties like Ban 1080 or NZ First. NZ First's single issue is of course, "How do we keep Winnie's nose in the trough?"

I pissed myself laughing at that.


Labour is the party who threw workers under the bus. National is the party who then poured concrete on the bus with the workers under it and chiseled into the concrete, "Thou shalt not have relations with your employer. Nor shalt thou have any measure of financial security or future quality of life to plan for, unless you earn more than $500,000pa. Then thou shalt become one of the anointed ones and be allowed to form political parties called , "I am A TOP. Whee, Look at me Spin"."

Did they throw them under the bus due to Malice, Incompetence or Ideological possession? Because those are 3 very separate scenarios.


I have no desire to distribute other people's wealth. But I also have no desire to point and laugh at those who's ability to have independence from state welfare was removed.

Do those people have an inability to work?

[James Deuce]

Then how do you explain all the Marxist rhetorhic from Labour, the Greens and the Maori Party? Some of them are radically Left wing. Hell, Jacinda wasn't sure if being called a Pretty Communist was a compliment or an Insult



I pissed myself laughing at that.



Did they throw them under the bus due to Malice, Incompetence or Ideological possession? Because those are 3 very separate scenarios.



Do those people have an inability to work?

They aren't radically left wing. Labour have never recanted the Neoliberal reforms they institued. The framework the National party works from within is the one Labour established and when Labour are in they use the same framework. One person does not make a party. I don't know what Marx you studied, but it obviously wasn't the same as the one as the parties above are referencing because I've heard nothing Marxist from them. Taxing the means of production and consumption ever so slightly more than it is being taxed now is not the same as controlling the means of production and distribution and has more in common with Friedman than Marx.

The bus was driven up and parked on top of caucus objections and by the people who created the ACT party. It was ideological possession at its worst from completely left of centre. The ultimate political betrayal for the people who voted for the Worker's party.

There are no jobs for those people. 100s of thousands of jobs disappeared in NZ over the last 30 years and have been replaced by either nothing or casual primary produce jobs or casual service industry jobs. When I left school getting a job was a piece of piss. You could work as hard or be as lazy as you wanted. No one went for interviews unless it was for a job in the Civil Service, and that was just a form filling session. Post sharemarket crash you had to have specific skills and you were suddenly competing for a shrinking pool of jobs. The very Capitalist idea of maintaining a pool of unemployed to keep demand up and wages down runs the job market in NZ. If I apply for a job in the same company in which I work now it is a minimum of 5 interviews before I get to a selection panel. Looking at external jobs, you're either headhunted, or you apply for double figures, sometimes into the 100s of jobs. It is what it is, but unless you are qualified or experienced in a way that makes your skillset valuable in a demand segment of the employment market, even getting a shelf-stacking job is a miracle, and that's casual and you need to bolster it with another one or two casual gigs to pay bills.

If I want a payrise, I need to find another job with another company and work there for a couple of years and then come back to the original company who suddenly pay more than market rate for the same job, despite paying 20-30% under market rate previously. There's no clear cut way to get ahead if you work for a living unless you are really good at something, which is not something I'll ever be, or you get good at farming and laundering money.

[TheDemonLord]

They aren't radically left wing. Labour have never recanted the Neoliberal reforms they institued. The framework the National party works from within is the one Labour established and when Labour are in they use the same framework. One person does not make a party. I don't know what Marx you studied, but it obviously wasn't the same as the one as the parties above are referencing because I've heard nothing Marxist from them. Taxing the means of production and consumption ever so slightly more than it is being taxed now is not the same as controlling the means of production and distribution and has more in common with Friedman than Marx.

It's the anti-capitalist rhetoric that is literally copied and pasted from Marx - the Greens are the worst offenders, Labour have been getting worse and worse.

Taking things earned by the Rich and giving them to the poor - is very much in line with the transitional state to the Glorious Communist Utopia....



There are no jobs for those people. 100s of thousands of jobs disappeared in NZ over the last 30 years and have been replaced by either nothing or casual primary produce jobs or casual service industry jobs. When I left school getting a job was a piece of piss. You could work as hard or be as lazy as you wanted. No one went for interviews unless it was for a job in the Civil Service, and that was just a form filling session. Post sharemarket crash you had to have specific skills and you were suddenly competing for a shrinking pool of jobs. The very Capitalist idea of maintaining a pool of unemployed to keep demand up and wages down runs the job market in NZ. If I apply for a job in the same company in which I work now it is a minimum of 5 interviews before I get to a selection panel. Looking at external jobs, you're either headhunted, or you apply for double figures, sometimes into the 100s of jobs. It is what it is, but unless you are qualified or experienced in a way that makes your skillset valuable in a demand segment of the employment market, even getting a shelf-stacking job is a miracle, and that's casual and you need to bolster it with another one or two casual gigs to pay bills.

There is nothing Capitalist about maintaining a pool of Unemployed - the Less people working, the less people who are ability to buy your product or services.

However - interesting take on the Job market - The internal interviews for a Job - that's a product of HR (which is heavily dominated by far Left-leaning people btw) External companies - well, when I went job hunting 2 years ago, I ended up with 3 final interviews, 2 offers, 6 first interviews - and I think I applied for a total of 30 jobs.

What you seem to be bemoaning is that in order to be desirable (to a business) you have to have something the business wants...

And given that the amount of Education available for upskilling these days is greater than it's ever been - I have little to no sympathy.


If I want a payrise, I need to find another job with another company and work there for a couple of years and then come back to the original company who suddenly pay more than market rate for the same job, despite paying 20-30% under market rate previously. There's no clear cut way to get ahead

Or you tell you manager that unless you get a Pay rise, you'll be accepting the offers from the Slave traders who are calling you. If you provide enough value to the business, they will give you a payrise, if you don't - then you go elsewhere.

I've done both.


If you work for a living unless you are really good at something, which is not something I'll ever be, or you get good at farming and laundering money.

You mean....

That Mediocrity...

Doesn't pay?!?!

Heaven forbid!

Surely then the solution is not to complain about it being everyone elses' fault, but instead work harder at being really good at something? The way you are talking is to suggest that people should be given the world for barely being productive/

[mashman]

Yes, any 2yr old can figure that out.
How it is used and conducted under either FPP or STV creates differences.
FPP is "one giant pool of votes" essentially.
MMP creates the same pool in a different manner.
STV is a more technical approach, so obviously far too difficult for the average Kiwi voter. This method should provide a "happier" voter since their "people's party" vote was a waste of time and eliminated, but their Monster Raving Looney Party vote was then counted and the voter sees this person appearing in Parliament.

Not that a happy voter would be encountered, and certainly not of a leftist persuasion.

Like I said earlier "Same outcome as MMP/STV then." :). lol@technical approach. I still don't agree that 2nd or 3rd choice should govern over the candidate that most wanted as their #1. Which, ironically, is what happened in the Porirua Mayor election. 2nd place won it on the final iteration. So the majority that voted for that individual, lost. Silly system, ha.

I'm glad the left don't see some things as right.

[Grumph]

No mate. My point is that when the votes have been counted you still don't have a result and with MMP the result could be Labour, that didn't get any sort of majority vote, will be in power because they sucked Winstons cock better than National did. Plus it could still be several weeks before an actual result happnes. That is a shit system.

What i suspect you're missing is that all the votes have not been counted. There are still over 300, 000 specials to be counted which according to reports may change things by 2 - 3 seats.
Winnie has every right to do as he's said and wait till the final numbers are known. He's promised a decision within I think 7 days of the final numbers.
We may not like it - but take that up with the electoral commission as to why it's taking them so long.


Your much vaunted US system hasn't actually got much done over the last 6 -8 years due to interparty fighting in both houses. At least we've only got one...

[James Deuce]

Puts words in people's mouths so it matches the narrative they want.
I'll make it simple.
The people bitching about the people who "won't" work are judging them against standards that no longer exist, and the bitches aren't aware of what confronts them if they step out of their decade or longer continuous employment bubble.

There's nothing Marxist about NZ politics.

Unemployed people = people dying needlessly of poverty related issues = It's their own fault they deserved it.

Change = no idea what you do for a job, but I have to change tack every two to three years as the stuff I'm good at has disappeared under a welter of automation that has nothing to do with physical robots. It's just how it is, but it doesn't allow you the time to get good, when you have to live as well. The only acceptable answer to a Tory such as your self is "retrain as something useful". The rate of change at the systemic layer of most sedentary jobs is so high that retraining guarantees you are out of the loop long enough to get completely dropped off the back of the boat.

All that other stuff you claimed I said = keep on painting those interpretations that don't exist.

[Katman]

I'll make it simple.


You still used too many syllables for him.

[Katman]

Some disturbing allegations.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HPx_3RTzTrc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jasonu]

Some disturbing allegations.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HPx_3RTzTrc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Must be true if it's on the internet.

[Katman]

Must be true if it's on the internet.

I did use the word 'allegations'.

[pritch]

I love MMP and wanted that for decades before we actually got it. After it was introduced the voters got the idea long before the politicians did. People like Jim Bolger who had worked under the old system just weren't up to learning new tricks. Anyone who is in Parliament now should have the idea.

We do get the odd nutter, mainly in NZ First lately, but we do seem to be spared the total idiots Australia and the USA get.

Someone commented on that fact that we won't know who the Government is for a couple of weeks. The votes aren't officially counted until October 7th (IIRC). If an FPP election was close that delay would still apply.

What we used to have under FPP was a series of three year dictatorships with PMs (Muldoon for one) claiming a mandate they didn't actually have. Minority governments were common with more people having voted against them than for them.

MMP isn't perfect but it seems to work better than the obvious alternatives.

[TheDemonLord]

I'll make it simple.
The people bitching about the people who "won't" work are judging them against standards that no longer exist, and the bitches aren't aware of what confronts them if they step out of their decade or longer continuous employment bubble.

What was it you were saying about deliberate Misinterpretation?

I'm saying everyone has the ability to work, exempting those who are legally too stupid to work (so a sub 80 IQ) or have a mental disorder that prevents them from work (and I mean an actual mental disorder, not "I got PTSD from Twitter" type of mental disorders)

If there are those who aren't working but are not in the above group - why aren't they working? For almost all NZers - we know that they attended free Secondary school - so it's not an education problem, we know that there is an entire government entity dedicated to helping them find work, so it's not a resource problem.

So tell me - what is it then?


There's nothing Marxist about NZ politics.

Not in Politics in General, but in the Greens and Labour - yes, yes there is.


Unemployed people = people dying needlessly of poverty related issues = It's their own fault they deserved it.

How many of them are habitual Alcohol and Drug users? Did someone force them to get Addicted? or did they make a conscious choice to try and continue to use? How many of them choose to have unprotected sex, bringing children into this world who they can't support? How many of them try to live in areas that are beyond their means to afford? How many of them waste what money they do earn on frivolous items of 'wealth' and 'status' that do not increase their Net worth? How many of them believe that their problems are someone else's fault?


Change = no idea what you do for a job, but I have to change tack every two to three years as the stuff I'm good at has disappeared under a welter of automation that has nothing to do with physical robots. It's just how it is, but it doesn't allow you the time to get good, when you have to live as well.

I work in IT... Every 2 years I've got to learn multiple new things, in fact, I recently passed my Azure Infrastructure certification - and the Azure platform is being updated so frequently that MS has even had complaints from Fortune 500 companies that it is changing too fast - MS' response "If it's moving too fast for you, then you aren't ready for it"

If you think it doesn't allow you the time - then you make time, for the above cert, I was up till 1 am studying all week this week, before heading off to the course at 8:00 am - because I wanted to pass.


The only acceptable answer to a Tory such as your self is "retrain as something useful". The rate of change at the systemic layer of most sedentary jobs is so high that retraining guarantees you are out of the loop long enough to get completely dropped off the back of the boat.

Lol - You think I'm a Tory.... I'm not.

Guess that's a bit of a nail in the coffin of your political understanding there.

but anyways - it seems like you are saying people might have to put in more effort in order to stay ahead of the curve - like I have to do, to stay ahead of the Curve in my field - the 'acceptable answer' as you put it - is the same standard I hold for myself.


All that other stuff you claimed I said = keep on painting those interpretations that don't exist.

Well, you seem to be playing that game with the same fervor you accuse me of having - people in Glass houses and all that.

[TheDemonLord]

You still used too many syllables for him.

Says the person who can only tell people to Suck his Cock whenever he gets owned in a debate.

[ellipsis]

What was it you were saying ( jerk jerk jerk- must pull harder, pant pant pant) and all that.

...fuck, you are full of shit...a veritable, wankfest of retort and non thinking, verbal shit...past entertaining, even for a wanker on here, way past...

IGNORE

[TheDemonLord]

...fuck, you are full of shit...a veritable, wankfest of retort and non thinking, verbal shit...past entertaining, even for a wanker on here, way past...

IGNORE

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out :P

[Swoop]

Like I said earlier "Same outcome as MMP/STV then."
Only if you mean it elects a government.
The pathway is not the same.


We do get the odd nutter, mainly in NZ First lately, but we do seem to be spared the total idiots Australia and the USA get.
Unfortunately the retarded cunts want to lower the 5% threshold down to 3%. Utter stupidity.

[Ocean1]

I'll make it simple.

There's three ways you can acquire money, an agreed exchange for value freely given, via a charitable donation or by stealing it. Which is it you're suggesting should be the basis for employment remuneration? Bearing in mind that only the first one actually creates wealth, economic oxygen.

As for the burgeoning numbers of "poor", you're not senile enough to miss the fact that the currently fashionable definition more or less ensures that no amount of income redistribution will ever move that needle. I see that the minimum wage now matches that definition, btw: 60% of the mean income. So apparently all we need to do to eliminate poverty completely is to reinstate the 40hr working week. Or would that simply provoke the UN to redefine "poor" again?

[Brian d marge]

There's three ways you can acquire money, an agreed exchange for value freely given, via a charitable donation or by stealing it. Which is it you're suggesting should be the basis for employment remuneration? Bearing in mind that only the first one actually creates wealth, economic oxygen.

As for the burgeoning numbers of "poor", you're not senile enough to miss the fact that the currently fashionable definition more or less ensures that no amount of income redistribution will ever move that needle. I see that the minimum wage now matches that definition, btw: 60% of the mean income. So apparently all we need to do to eliminate poverty completely is to reinstate the 40hr working week. Or would that simply provoke the UN to redefine "poor" again?

oh thats rich , one of the few people who have as much knowledge of money let alone currency as I do of the fairer sex ....
u suck my cock I kiss ur arse , where the money batman?

closed or open system, which one is it fruitcake?

who gives it value , ? and in what form is it given value ?

still waiting for you to ANSWER ANY of these or ANY of my questions .....

come on cupcake , at least answer ONE question ......

[TheDemonLord]

who gives it value , ?

The Market does.

The Market being comprised of People.


and in what form is it given value ?

Depends on the Market, but in most the Form is as an easily comparable and divisible placeholder for things of actual value.

It's easy to compare $500 for a Cow with $120 for a Sheep.

Whereas it's harder to compare Apples with Oranges.

[Brian d marge]

The Market does.

The Market being comprised of People.



Depends on the Market, but in most the Form is as an easily comparable and divisible placeholder for things of actual value.

It's easy to compare $500 for a Cow with $120 for a Sheep.

Whereas it's harder to compare Apples with Oranges.Good answer , but the people suddenly got together and thought colored paper was the way to go ....?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Good answer , but the people suddenly got together and thought colored paper was the way to go ....?

No, Form followed Function.

[mashman]

Only if you mean it elects a government.
The pathway is not the same.

Yes... but even the different pathways are going to end up with the same people in the same places doing the same thing. This happens because the very same people vote for the same people they were going to vote for anyway. It's all pretty deterministic irrespective of methodology innit.

[Brian d marge]

No, Form followed Function.Actually function follows form , see the hermetic and its use by the Priestley class for how the form was used and for the concept of the form

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Actually function follows form , see the hermetic and its use by the Priestley class for how the form was used and for the concept of the form

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

You see, this is where we get into one of those fundamental differences in viewpoint.

[Brian d marge]

You see, this is where we get into one of those fundamental differences in viewpoint.

well you had better take it up with the Babylonians , after all they started it ( the banking houses of Egibi and or Muradsu)

unless you have a different view of history , Vadic? or the law of Manu?

or are you original in your Sin?

[Katman]

You see, this is where we get into one of those fundamental differences in viewpoint.

Thanks for your continued efforts in presenting the viewpoint according to The Book of Autism.

[TheDemonLord]

well you had better take it up with the Babylonians , after all they started it ( the banking houses of Egibi and or Muradsu)

unless you have a different view of history , Vadic? or the law of Manu?

or are you original in your Sin?

I don't doubt that somebody invented the concept - but why was it invented in the first place?

The answer being to solve the problem of Trade between groups.

The form of Money is a product of the Function that it has to serve - we as a society buy into the concept (Pun fully intended) because of all the known methods of trade, it's the most successful at solving the problems of Trade.

Should a better system come along, we will probably switch to that (and one could argue that Electronic Banking is that better system that we are slowly moving towards)

[TheDemonLord]

Thanks for your continued efforts in presenting the viewpoint according to The Book of Autism.

Maybe you should try reading it sometime, you might learn something.

Although you might be disappointed that in the book, people aren't repeatedly told to suck other people's cock - it's a bit more highbrow than that.

[Swoop]

Yes... but even the different pathways are going to end up with the same people in the same places doing the same thing.

No, it will vary dependent on the voters selections and popularity of the very small parties. Once a few of the lesser parties are eliminated from the "pool" the larger changes start to become visible.
You have seen how local elections are held, yet you personally will not see the calculations happening, but will see the eventual winner announced. The winning candidate should make a greater proportion of the voters happy, since that person's name will have been selected in 1st, 2nd or 3rd place on the voter's form.
Simple, innit!

[pritch]

I'm getting just a tad pissed off at the political coverage in NZ. Normally I manage to avoid it, but Trump has been so incredibly incompetent and just plain nasty lately that I have been seeking refuge in our tamer news here. Not that it is good news, but it is at least sane.

So some here are whinging about the delay in forming a new Government. Get over it. There is always a delay of about two weeks before the votes are fully counted.

There are complaints that Winston shouldn't have so much power but he only has the power that Labour or National give him. The Greens reportedly won't work with National and that makes sense. They are far apart politically and the Greens have the example of what has just happened to the Maori Party to guide them.

So most people see the obvious outcome as a National/NZ First Government with the long shot being a Green/NZ First/Labour Government.

There is one other possibility that receives little mention, mainly because it is unlikely in the present circumstances. If the NZ First option was completely unpalatable to National there is nothing to stop them approaching Labour about forming what is called a "grand coalition". That hasn't happened here yet but it does happen in Europe.

People who worry about the tail wagging the dog do so unduly, the system can deal with that.

[mashman]

No, it will vary dependent on the voters selections and popularity of the very small parties. Once a few of the lesser parties are eliminated from the "pool" the larger changes start to become visible.
You have seen how local elections are held, yet you personally will not see the calculations happening, but will see the eventual winner announced. The winning candidate should make a greater proportion of the voters happy, since that person's name will have been selected in 1st, 2nd or 3rd place on the voter's form.
Simple, innit!

Yeah I know what you mean, but it's still pretty deterministic given that those who are voting for red, blue and green invariably take up spots 1, 2 and 3 in various combinations. They did produce the iteration results, and in the first 4 iterations Murrell was leading. T'was the final iteration that saw Tana scrape through. Murrell was chosen by the majority as the #1, so should have become Mayor, but STV, is, well, silly. You used to have one vote. NOW you have portions of a vote as your votes get cast and recast again and again for no other treason than it would supposedly make more people happier with the result. Like I said, silly imho.

[oldrider]

I'm getting just a tad pissed off at the political coverage in NZ. Normally I manage to avoid it, but Trump has been so incredibly incompetent and just plain nasty lately that I have been seeking refuge in our tamer news here. Not that it is good news, but it is at least sane.

So some here are whinging about the delay in forming a new Government. Get over it. There is always a delay of about two weeks before the votes are fully counted.

There are complaints that Winston shouldn't have so much power but he only has the power that Labour or National give him. The Greens reportedly won't work with National and that makes sense. They are far apart politically and the Greens have the example of what has just happened to the Maori Party to guide them.

So most people see the obvious outcome as a National/NZ First Government with the long shot being a Green/NZ First/Labour Government.

There is one other possibility that receives little mention, mainly because it is unlikely in the present circumstances. If the NZ First option was completely unpalatable to National there is nothing to stop them approaching Labour about forming what is called a "grand coalition". That hasn't happened here yet but it does happen in Europe.

People who worry about the tail wagging the dog do so unduly, the system can deal with that.

Good post pritch.

I have been waiting for this realisation ever since the introduction of MMP!

We (the electorate) only vote to give them permission to form a government - they impose their own limitations to getting it done! - fucking wankers! :tugger:

[Swoop]

We (the electorate) only vote to give them permission to form a government - they impose their own limitations to getting it done! - fucking wankers! :tugger:

Then proceed to do whatever the hell they want for the next 2 1/2 years...
(this applies to whatever colour is in gubbinment).

[Grumph]

Then proceed to do whatever the hell they want for the next 2 1/2 years...
(this applies to whatever colour is in gubbinment).

And then rely on the voting public's short memory when they lie about their achievements while trying to get back in.

Personally, I'm still holding grudges against Holyoake and Muldoon....

[husaberg]

Personally, I'm still holding grudges against Holyoake and Muldoon....
I am not sure how good that will do you now, i doubt they are chasing votes at the moment.;)

[1billyboy]

And then rely on the voting public's short memory when they lie about their achievements while trying to get back in.

Personally, I'm still holding grudges against Holyoake and Muldoon....

Mine is against Nordmeyer and his black budget. Had to use a lot more pocket to buy smokes.

[oldrider]

Mine is against Nordmeyer and his black budget. Had to use a lot more pocket to buy smokes.

Mine is with that bastard Nick Smith and his artificial ACC taxes on motorcycles and diesel utes etc. - May he burn in hell the useless prick! :angry2:

He forced me to prematurely retire as an active motorcyclist! - What bigger crime can he inflict upon his fellow man - AND he's ugly! :yes:

:love: . :ride: - 63 years active licensed motorcycle lifestyle "OVER"! :crybaby: - But - new knee, new (reconditioned) heart and Lotto, I may be back yet! :banana: . :ride: . :blip:

[Voltaire]

I'd like to thank Robert Muldoon and Roger Douglas for giving me the motivation to get on a plane to Sydney where I purchased my first Ducati, BMW,

Stahlwille tools ,pub rock and decent cricket matches.

$14 PH AU in 1986 bought you a lot more than the paltry $10 on offer here. ( yeah NZ really is a low wage economy)

I don't know why the media is making such a big deal about Winston Peters....we've seen it all before and its his last waltz as at 73 he won't be running New

Zealand Third for much longer.:laugh:

[Brian d marge]

I'd like to thank Robert Muldoon and Roger Douglas for giving me the motivation to get on a plane to Sydney where I purchased my first Ducati, BMW,

Stahlwille tools ,pub rock and decent cricket matches.

$14 PH AU in 1986 bought you a lot more than the paltry $10 on offer here. ( yeah NZ really is a low wage economy)

I don't know why the media is making such a big deal about Winston Peters....we've seen it all before and its his last waltz as at 73 he won't be running New

Zealand Third for much longer.[emoji23]Ya half arsed burnt face man...
O fucked of to blighty where I worked for honda , bought snap on tools and. Regretted it ,,,,then bought shallwolle. Fk of spell check o ain't going to correct it a forth time
Now in Japan I'm semi retirement

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Grumph]

Mine is against Nordmeyer and his black budget. Had to use a lot more pocket to buy smokes.

Listened to that in a mates workshop. Part way in, his dad starts carting in crates of empty beer bottles...
When asked why, the answer was "Going to have to make a LOT more homebrew".....

In the context of the times, it was necessary.

[Swoop]

I wonder if Winston's negotiations are progressing well today?

Remember last time he held the country to ransom and it took around 6 weeks to get it all sorted out?

Yes, that time when he stated there would be no "baubles of power", yet he ended up as foreign minister?

[jasonu]

Yep, a crap system.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786

[oldrider]

Yep, a crap system.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786

Exactly - the government is decided by the politicians and they are dependant upon and loyal to each other - forget about the wishes of the electorate! :kick:

Less corrupt people for the bankers to focus on and control in order for them to continue the real business of governing without interruption behind the scenes! :rolleyes:

[pritch]

I wonder if Winston's negotiations are progressing well today?

Remember last time he held the country to ransom and it took around 6 weeks to get it all sorted out?

Yes, that time when he stated there would be no "baubles of power", yet he ended up as foreign minister?

It may be different now, he has the recent example of the Maori party to show him that he should maybe keep some distance between NZ First and National in a coalition. Then again, two thirds of his NZ First party members want him to go with Labour/Greens.

Guess we'll find out soon if it is actually NZ First or just the Winston Peters party?

[Ocean1]

Yep, a crap system.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929786

Obviously nothing to do with proportional representation as advertised. :laugh:

[pritch]

Obviously nothing to do with proportional representation as advertised. :laugh:

It isn't supposed to be fully proportional, but it is working just as intended. I love it!

The tail can only wag the dog if the dog lets it.

[Ocean1]

It isn't supposed to be fully proportional, but it is working just as intended. I love it!

The tail can only wag the dog if the dog lets it.

It was sold as proportional representation. Nobody expected it to be fully proportional, just more so, and nobody expected it to potentially put the party with the most votes out of contention either.

The whole "most people voted against National" stance is transparently pathetic, on that basis Labor holds no mandate whatsoever, even more voted against the greens and almost everyone voted against Winston first.

The contention that some sort of mash-up of policy between minor parties represents any sort of consensus, or in fact anything remotely like what the majority of voters want is also clearly just plain wrong, to claim that's the intention of the voters is ridiculous.

So the party least representing the election results is now effectively in power, and no matter what Whinston decides absolutely nobody will have voted for it.

It's a fucking absurd system.

[pritch]

Nobody expected it to be fully proportional, just more so, and nobody expected it to potentially put the party with the most votes out of contention either.



Nobody except anybody who paid attention? :whistle: Whichever way it goes people will be upset, not because there's anything wrong with the system, just that the outome didn't go their way.

Me? It isn't likely that either of the options would be a total disaster so I will be relaxed whichever.

Of course there's also the third option but that is unlikely this time.

[gsxr]

As there is no clear mandate after counting of special votes maybe another election with NO media input from the parties rather than journalists viewpoints.

[Grumph]

As there is no clear mandate after counting of special votes maybe another election with NO media input from the parties rather than journalists viewpoints.

Don't expect to see a clear winner as in one party getting over 50% of the seats ever again. What you will see, regardless of which way Winston goes is a coalition which in total has more than 50% of the votes cast. By definition that is a government of the majority.
To me it's surprising just how many people still expect a first past the post result.
Whether we got STV or PR the outcome would still have been coalitions.

I suspect that if we'd still had FPP, we'd have had a couple of govenments so far with fragile majorities which possibly wouldn't have gone full term.

[Ocean1]

Nobody except anybody who paid attention? :whistle: Whichever way it goes people will be upset, not because there's anything wrong with the system, just that the outome didn't go their way.

Not at all, if Labour had won 20% more votes than National I'd be expecting them to be involved in a new govt.

But they didn't.

[Ocean1]

What you will see, regardless of which way Winston goes is a coalition which in total has more than 50% of the votes cast. By definition that is a government of the majority.

No, it's not, it's a coalition with policies nobody ever voted for.

This whole "not perfect but better than FPP" theme is pointless, is the argument really that there's no system that results in an entity a majority voted for, so this'll do?

[James Deuce]

No, it's not, it's a coalition with policies nobody ever voted for.

This whole "not perfect but better than FPP" theme is pointless, is the argument really that there's no system that results in an entity a majority voted for, so this'll do?
Yeah. National NZ First is the worst case in that scenario in terms of clear policy driven Government. The added bonus is that Winston will fuck up any Government he's involved in and look at what happened to his voter base in '96 after he went and sold them down the river. Not had that level of support since.

[Voltaire]

No, it's not, it's a coalition with policies nobody ever voted for.

This whole "not perfect but better than FPP" theme is pointless, is the argument really that there's no system that results in an entity a majority voted for, so this'll do?

I suspect all the options are tainted by Big Business making 'donations' for candidate campaigns.....

Look at the US model and how that works out.....

[Ocean1]

Yeah. National NZ First is the worst case in that scenario in terms of clear policy driven Government. The added bonus is that Winston will fuck up any Government he's involved in and look at what happened to his voter base in '96 after he went and sold them down the river. Not had that level of support since.

Well no, you could speculate that he'll fuck up National's policy set 20% more than he would fuck up Labour's, and it'd still be closer to what more voted for.

And yes, minority interests fucking up governments is an excellent reason to arsehole MMP, maybe this time we'll learn.

[Ocean1]

I suspect all the options are tainted by Big Business making 'donations' for candidate campaigns.....

Look at the US model and how that works out.....

As opposed to the unions having their own actual complete party to taint voter expectations with? :laugh:

[pritch]

No, it's not, it's a coalition with policies nobody ever voted for.



No, that's not correct. Whichever way it goes, the majority voted for them. Relax, put your feet up, there's a certain potential for entertainment in all of this - as long as you don't take it too seriously. :innocent:

[Ocean1]

No, that's not correct. Whichever way it goes, the majority voted for them. Relax, put your feet up, there's a certain potential for entertainment in all of this - as long as you don't take it too seriously. :innocent:

It's perfectly correct, absolutely nobody voted for policies that change after the election. Like most people you seem to believe in voting for or against parties or people, rather than policies.

And I stopped taking it seriously the day it became obvious that people had begun voting themselves other people'e earnings for no reason other than they wanted them. And that was before I was old enough to vote.

[Voltaire]

As opposed to the unions having their own actual complete party to taint voter expectations with? :laugh:

Unions....I vaguely remember being in the Electrical Workers Union..... are they still around?

[jasonu]

p, there's a certain potential for entertainment in all of this - as long as you don't take it too seriously. :innocent:

Never a more true statement said.

[James Deuce]

Well no, you could speculate that he'll fuck up National's policy set 20% more than he would fuck up Labour's, and it'd still be closer to what more voted for.

And yes, minority interests fucking up governments is an excellent reason to arsehole MMP, maybe this time we'll learn.
I see what you did there but it's not policy he's going to fuck up the most. It will be the capability for National to be electable enough to be in a Governing coalition. He just wants to sit at the big table and going with National will give him the most influence. He'll fuck National's policy base and NZ First's to do that and given this is probably his last term in Parliament, he won't care if NZ First is electable next election either.

[oldrider]

It's perfectly correct, absolutely nobody voted for policies that change after the election. Like most people you seem to believe in voting for or against parties or people, rather than policies.

And I stopped taking it seriously the day it became obvious that people had begun voting themselves other people'e earnings for no reason other than they wanted them. And that was before I was old enough to vote.


I see what you did there but it's not policy he's going to fuck up the most. It will be the capability for National to be electable enough to be in a Governing coalition. He just wants to sit at the big table and going with National will give him the most influence. He'll fuck National's policy base and NZ First's to do that and given this is probably his last term in Parliament, he won't care if NZ First is electable next election either.

At absolute best MMP is designed to deliver mediocrity through compromised policies and time wasting talk fests - such as is happening right now! :facepalm:

The only real power the electorate has is to vote governments out - but of course by then it is too late! :o

[James Deuce]

At absolute best MMP is designed to deliver mediocrity through compromised policies and time wasting talk fests - such as is happening right now! :facepalm:

The only real power the electorate has is to vote governments out - but of course by then it is too late! :o
FPP is the same except you have to accept that a minority Government is making changes that can't be undone until - you vote them out.

[Ocean1]

Unions....I vaguely remember being in the Electrical Workers Union..... are they still around?

It's called the Labour Party. They've scaled back the retail fucking up of workplaces, nowadays they concentrate on the wholesale side of fucking shit up.

[oldrider]

FPP is the same except you have to accept that a minority Government is making changes that can't be undone until - you vote them out.

I am not an advocate for FPP - STV is/was my preference because it makes the candidate more accountable to the electorate! (voter)

There have been dalliances with STV in local body elections etc and I wonder if our voters could actually manage it in a general election? :scratch:

[James Deuce]

I am not an advocate for FPP - STV is/was my preference because it makes the candidate more accountable to the electorate! (voter)

There have been dalliances with STV in local body elections etc and I wonder if our voters could actually manage it in a general election? :scratch:
STV is mine as well and, yes, people are generally less stupid than one imagines. I think pretty much anything other than FPP and MMP are better than either.

I'd settle for electronic voting though, irrespective of system.

[pritch]

absolutely nobody voted for policies that change after the election.

The policies listed in a party manifesto are politicians' promises. And no, I certainly don't vote for those because they are mostly worthless.

Anyhoo we should all know soon enough who is going to be the government, then we can celebrate or drown our sorrows as appropriate. Or just listen to some music?

[Ocean1]

The policies listed in a party manifesto are politicians' promises. And no, I certainly don't vote for those because they are mostly worthless.

Anyhoo we should all know soon enough who is going to be the government, then we can celebrate or drown our sorrows as appropriate. Or just listen to some music?

I suppose voting on personalities or personal preconceptions is more satisfying.

If you're into reality TV.

[Ocean1]

STV is mine as well and, yes, people are generally less stupid than one imagines. I think pretty much anything other than FPP and MMP are better than either.

I'd settle for electronic voting though, irrespective of system.

I want real-time budget control.

Big knob attached to funding sources pie chart via interweb. Another big knob connected to the graph showing where that lot's going to be spent.

Maybe an automatic despot execution function for budget drift of more than 2%.

Then I won't give a fuck who's in office, they'll just be the administrators they always should have been.

[pritch]

I suppose voting on personalities or personal preconceptions is more satisfying.

If you're into reality TV.

Nah it's about paying attention during the three years between elections. 'Reality TV' is an oxymoron

[Oakie]

Starting to wonder if Winston won't buddy up to anyone in a coalition.
If he does buddy up, then he gets a bit of influence but will always be the smaller partner. If he decides not to partner anyone and sits on the cross benches then he will get to decide on every little piece of legilsation that goes through. National would have to suck up to him and give him what he wants or they'll get nothing done. He would run the country without having to be a bigger party's small partner.

Discuss ...

[Ocean1]

Nah it's about paying attention during the three years between elections. 'Reality TV' is an oxymoron

I promise you that other people appropriating my hard earned for three years gets my attention, and promises to spend more of it in the next three years definitely affects how I vote.

So why would you want the same sort of entertainment from an election? In that regard MMP delivers half the goods: it's the plain moronic bit.

[Grumph]

I suppose voting on personalities or personal preconceptions is more satisfying.

Well according to your scenario for the negotiations it may actually be a more accurate way of forecasting what you could get....

Electronic voting won't happen until there's at least national cellphone coverage - and that's unlikely in my lifetime anyway.

[oldrider]

Starting to wonder if Winston won't buddy up to anyone in a coalition.
If he does buddy up, then he gets a bit of influence but will always be the smaller partner. If he decides not to partner anyone and sits on the cross benches then he will get to decide on every little piece of legilsation that goes through. National would have to suck up to him and give him what he wants or they'll get nothing done. He would run the country without having to be a bigger party's small partner.

Discuss ...

Agree with you some what but they don't need to go into coalition with anyone! (other than supply and confidence)

They have been selected and elected to govern so just get on with it and the coalition will automatically sort it's self out bill by bill issue by issue!

Party politics is just dumb shit and should be less dominant in the political decision making process. :sick: The electorate needs to take back control! :yes:

[Ocean1]

Well according to your scenario for the negotiations it may actually be a more accurate way of forecasting what you could get....

Electronic voting won't happen until there's at least national cellphone coverage - and that's unlikely in my lifetime anyway.

According to my preferred scenario there wouldn't be any need to forecast anything. If a proposal isn't presented as policy before the election to be voted on how on earth can the back room boys "negotiate" it into existence and call it some sort majority preference?

We could give you and the other half dozen hillbillies a black marble I suppose, just for old times' sake. You could use it to vote yourself some internets.

[mashman]

"Can't subscribe to the majority voted for change..It could be read overwhelmingly different...63 percent didnt vote for Labour, take the Lipstick off the Pig and it is 77 % did not vote for labour, 94 % did not want to change to Green 93 % did not want to change for Winston. Overwhelming figures, in fact more voted for National in this election than there last landslide seat election." - Paul

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/85/ce/50/85ce50e206e264ec8e34b5021d20bfd2--aliens-finger.jpg

[James Deuce]

"Can't subscribe to the majority voted for change..It could be read overwhelmingly different...63 percent didnt vote for Labour, take the Lipstick off the Pig and it is 77 % did not vote for labour, 94 % did not want to change to Green 93 % did not want to change for Winston. Overwhelming figures, in fact more voted for National in this election than there last landslide seat election." - Paul


Still just the biggest minority. No one voted for change. We voted for the Status Quo.

[Brian d marge]

"Can't subscribe to the majority voted for change..It could be read overwhelmingly different...63 percent didnt vote for Labour, take the Lipstick off the Pig and it is 77 % did not vote for labour, 94 % did not want to change to Green 93 % did not want to change for Winston. Overwhelming figures, in fact more voted for National in this election than there last landslide seat election." - Paul

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/85/ce/50/85ce50e206e264ec8e34b5021d20bfd2--aliens-finger.jpg

oi stop quoting my facebook page

[Brian d marge]

My flag in the sand

Winston will go with any old bag lady who puts out , greens will wine about the fat fucks in Browns bay getting Harpooned , labour will rue the day they ever got a blow job with those Knashers ( holy fluck they is ACC just waiting to happen )

but your wise sage , right here on the hindernet says

FUCK ALL WILL HAPPEN

HANG the fkers then watch how fast they listen


IMHO

[mashman]

Still just the biggest minority. No one voted for change. We voted for the Status Quo.

All true. As such, I'd say no "moral right" to be government, just a mathematical "right".

[pritch]

I'd say no "moral right" to be government, just a mathematical "right".

Nice, but there is no moral vote only a numerical one. A National/NZ First/Act govt would have the majority of the votes. So too would a Labour/Greens/NZ First if that’s how it comes to pass.

No good getting upset, we had our say, now it’s up to the politicians.

[James Deuce]

Nice, but there is no moral vote only a numerical one. A National/NZ First/Act govt would have the majority of the votes. So too would a Labour/Greens/NZ First if that’s how it comes to pass.

No good getting upset, we had our say, now it’s up to the politicians.
ACT are going into opposition, irrespective of outcome.

[husaberg]

ACT are going into opposition, irrespective of outcome.
I don't think act will survive the next election with an MP at all. No Hyde, Prebble or Douglas =no party future.

[mashman]

Nice, but there is no moral vote only a numerical one. A National/NZ First/Act govt would have the majority of the votes. So too would a Labour/Greens/NZ First if that’s how it comes to pass.

No good getting upset, we had our say, now it’s up to the politicians.

I was using "moral" in the loose sense of majority rules as chosen by the most moral voter. And yet they all share the same parliament lol. I kind of like the idea behind no government being able to get more than 49% of the vote... nor indeed teaming up to make more than 49% to form a government. They should leave that shit for voting on the issues.

lol@up to the politicians. Gold.

[McJim]

I'd like to see a Labour-National Coalition.

Anything that keeps the Winston First party away from real decisions suits me fine. He's a thoroughly reprehensible little individual. :rofl:

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=McJim;1131066647]I'd like to see a Labour-National Coalition. /QUOTE]

That's what the majority of voters said they want - only it should be National - Labour majority vote leads!

If they can't get it together the electorate will decide next election - that would make them accountable to the voters rather than each other - like now.

[Berries]

I must say, it is all a very good advert to convince non-voters to vote next time around.

[Swoop]

I must say, it is all a very good advert to convince non-voters to vote next time around.

That never works.
Whining cunts will whine and then refuse to vote.

[Maha]

That never works.
Whining cunts will whine and then refuse to vote.

.......then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then they die.

[McJim]

Well I voted but I sure as hell didn't vote for Winnie. It is therefore my democratic right to complain about anything and everything that horrid little man says and does. Any party that goes into coalition with him will not get my vote in the next general election.

[Berries]

.......then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then whine like fuck for the next three years then refuse to vote then they die.
You seem to have fallen in to the same trap as many by suggesting non voters whine. They don't because they simply don't care, they just get on with life. Seems to me that this thread is populated by people complaining who did actually vote. The whole thing is a joke, and that is coming from someone who has shared a cigar and a whisky with Mr Peters Less than 10% voted for him but he has held NZ in his palm for a fortnight and will do so for another six months or so until the wheels well and truly fall off.

[pritch]

Less than 10% voted for him but he has held NZ in his palm for a fortnight and will do so for another six months or so until the wheels well and truly fall off.

That's only because national and Labour let him. They have the option to make him irrelevant, but he would need to have really pissed them off for them to do that. Meantime the two major parties are in it for what they can get, and one of them will get Winston.

[Swoop]

Meantime the two major parties are in it for what they can get, and one of them will get Winston.

I'm wondering if there is something akin to the elephant in the room...
The Lunatic Fringe party are being deliberately ignored by Winston. No meetings or phonecalls (perhaps their hemp-based telephone only receives smoke signals?), and not even a message via courier pigeon, which might be the only acceptable option to them.

IF Winston gets into bed with liarbour, he then has the Lunatic Fringe hassling him all the time, as a "partner" as well...
It would be wise to start a countdown to the chaos and mayhem ---> disintegration of their "coalition partnership" in a short time indeed.

Winnie's decision should be "entertaining" at least.

[Paul in NZ]

Winnie's decision should be "entertaining" at least.

Its entertaining him anyway... Hes happy as....

But remember that the decision has to be ratified by the NZ First board of directors... The 'secret' board.... LOL's... I bet its winnie looking in a set of mirrors asking for a show of hands....

[Swoop]

I bet its winnie looking in a set of mirrors asking for a show of hands....

Perhaps one of those dressing room mirrors that wrap right around you? Or more like "crazy house" distorting mirrors?
:lol:

[oldrider]

Anyone seen or heard of a government anywhere abouts in Kiwi land? :scratch: it's kinda like school these days where everyone participates but there are no winners! :weird:

[gsxr]

I heard earlier tonight from an inside NZ first member that some members of the board are busy with their other jobs so this has to wait.
Surely this meeting/meetings were pre planed and should have been scheduled into their other commitments .

[Brian d marge]

Well that's the energy you projected and what you got

Nothing will happen except some half arsed minor thing will change ..a reduction in ..blah blah ....

The boys in the money will still be fine

And you dumb arses will still be pushing shit uphill for peanuts

So unless u hold the fkers to their promise (s) hang or at least jail half of em

U get what you deserve.



Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

I heard earlier tonight from an inside NZ first member that some members of the board are busy with their other jobs so this has to wait.
Surely this meeting/meetings were pre planed and should have been scheduled into their other commitments .

Its hard to reschedule Bingo, Bowls and RSA stuff.

I like how this Politburo...er board is made up of mystery members.

What a joke, held to ransom by "little 7% man"

[jasonu]

I heard earlier tonight from an inside NZ first member that some members of the board are busy with their other jobs so this has to wait.
Surely this meeting/meetings were pre planed and should have been scheduled into their other commitments .

It was a funeral holding up the country.

[Berries]

Are we there yet?

[oldrider]

:eek: I am their leader --------- which way did they go? ...... :confused:

[GazzaH]

Who gives a stuff? The election night result was clear enough: no clear majority means nobody willing or able to make substantive changes, hence yet more of the same old same old.

Sod the politicians: the future of NZ is down to us.

So, let's get busy with the policy-making.

[Brian d marge]

Who gives a stuff? The election night result was clear enough: no clear majority means nobody willing or able to make substantive changes, hence yet more of the same old same old.

Sod the politicians: the future of NZ is down to us.

So, let's get busy with the policy-making.Vote axil-rod

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[jasonu]

Are we there yet?

Didn't even make page 1 of today's Harold...

[James Deuce]

Didn't even make page 1 of today's Harold...

Just popped up on Stuff that the NZ First "board" (mobsters?) won't make a decision before the weekend.

[pzkpfw]

Just popped up on Stuff that the NZ First "board" (mobsters?) won't make a decision before the weekend.

Clearly the lunch trolley was too well stocked.

[Ocean1]

The catalicks have got this sussed. They lock the lot of 'em up in a wee room and they're not allowed out until they make up their minds.

I think a small modification is required for local conditions though. Instead of carefully crafted coloured smoke indicating the state of play in there we should just burn the whole place to the ground.

That'd teach 'em.

[Brian d marge]

The catalicks have got this sussed. They lock the lot of 'em up in a wee room and they're not allowed out until they make up their minds.

I think a small modification is required for local conditions though. Instead of carefully crafted coloured smoke indicating the state of play in there we should just burn the whole place to the ground.

That'd teach 'em.They did that , in 1951 when they announced the pope ,20 min later the smoke changed and so did the pope. ..

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

That smug look from Winston and his sidekick Shane Jones makes you want to puke.( and Ron Marks).:puke:

Will Peters put the country before his self serving geriatrics party?.....doubt it.

[oldrider]

They may be able to work this thing out before the next election - but don't hold your breath! :no:

[jasonu]

They may be able to work this thing out before the next election - but don't hold your breath! :no:

A spot of lunch first... and yesterday some cunt held shit up to get his dry cleaning. What a fucking joke.

[jasonu]

What a cunt. Probably his last time to be in the spotlight so making the most of it.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11934724

[Woodman]

Jacinda must have swallowed!!!!!!

[husaberg]

Jacinda must have swallowed!!!!!!

Likely more to do with the Bottom sex he got from National in 1998
When Mrs Shipley sacked Mr Peters as deputy prime minister and treasurer.
Cobbled together a group of his party MPs as independants into a New collitition.

[Swoop]

Well this will be interesting. Winnie having to work with the Lunatic Fringe.

There goes the economy.

[Brian d marge]

Jacinda must have swallowed!!!!!!Either that or they had large tub of ky
The one with 30% Extra

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Grumph]

Well this will be interesting. Winnie having to work with the Lunatic Fringe.

There goes the economy.

Someone once said - Politics makes strange bedfellows. I'm picking that the Greens want it to work - so it will.

Unneccessarily pessimistic on the economy IMO - the one who will be swallowing hard is Key who's just been appointed chair of the ANZ bank. I'd pick that overseas owned businesses making as much out of NZ as they do will be a target...

[oldrider]

Ah! - I see we have an interim government - wonder if it will see the term out? :shifty: .. the only winner out of this will likely be the T.A.B. - :laugh:

Winston! - King maker or court Jester? Time will tell. :wait:

[ellipsis]

There goes the economy.


...which economy do you mean, and where's it gonna go...

[SPman]

Well this will be interesting. Winnie having to work with the Lunatic Fringe.

There goes the economy. I didn't know Trump was involved.....

[James Deuce]

Well this will be interesting. Winnie having to work with the Lunatic Fringe.

There goes the economy.
Hang on a minute. The Greens haven't made a decision yet.

[HenryDorsetCase]

This pleases me. Not so much the result (though I am on record as a rabid hater of the Nazis and Mr Potato head) - having said that I was pretty over the 4th Labour govt though I just didnt vote - I couldnt bring myself to vote National if they were the only party in Parliament.. which of course if the cunts had their way they would be.... I digress) aaaaaanyway:

this is an interesting example of how MMP works and creates situations you just wouldnt get with FPP.

Winston is pretty clearly getting revenge on the Nazis for (as he saw it) fucking him over in 96 or whenever it was, plus he wants to be able to point to something he achieved when he retired... which he can only do in Government.

I'm looking forward to the next three years because the Nazis had no idea - trotting out the same tired shit. You cannot base a successful economy on opening the floodgates to people who need housing and thus driving up the prices of the same shitty draughty overpriced uninsulated housing stock. Or raping our rivers. Or failing to acknowledge there is an issue with child poverty and institutionalised poverty. At least those parties actually called the Nazis on that shit after nine years of Cuntface Key yanking ponytails, giving cunts like John banks a handy and saying (and people believing) "Nah, no problem". Nazional: the party of "I got mine so fuck you". We can and we should want better and we deserve better than that.

so yeah I had a couple of wines to celebrate.

[pete376403]

The Labour/NZF agreement was worth it just to see the sour shitty look on Mike Hoskings face on Seven Sharp.

[Brian d marge]

If anything happens , do let me know ..
I mean if house prices fall to 30 %of an average single income
Or they fill the Uss Canterbury full of diesel
Of failing all of the above shoot the bushpig

Stephen


Edit bush pig is singular , it should have read swamp donkeys in the plural


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

There is something that deeply irks me about the result, it's something along the lines of the party with the largest vote share didn't get to form a Government, all because of the Whims of one Winston Peters.

This (to me) seems to go against every principle of Democracy.

But all that said, if the Ink dries, then it's the Government we shall have and has been formed in accordance with our Laws - just seems fundamentally wrong to me.

[TheDemonLord]

Winston is pretty clearly getting revenge on the Nazis for (as he saw it) fucking him over in 96 or whenever it was, plus he wants to be able to point to something he achieved when he retired... which he can only do in Government.

Because personal vendettas have always been the most stable reasons for forming alliances...


Or failing to acknowledge there is an issue with child poverty and institutionalised poverty.

I was having this conversation with my wife - if ANY party in NZ was serious about dealing with Child Poverty, there is a very simple solution:

If you aren't in full time work, paying your own way - you are on long term, reversible contraception. Now my Wife trotted out the "but it's their right to have Kids", to which my retort was "If it is their right, then it is also their responsibility to make sure they can raise them"

If you consider it's a large percentage of kids who are considered 'impoverished' are born to people who can't even support themselves, let alone a child - imagine if we removed those from the equation, and that meant the current funding could be diverted to people who find themselves in poverty through bad luck - imagine the good we could do.


so yeah I had a couple of wines to celebrate.

Was it a nice Merlot or Bordeux?

[James Deuce]

If you consider it's a large percentage of kids who are considered 'impoverished' are born to people who can't even support themselves, let alone a child.


You can be in that state in an instant without knowing it has happened. And EVERYONE, without fail, just labels you a fuckwit failure and you deserve it. Irrespective of circumstance. As soon as it has happened you are part of the problem. There is no delineation between bad luck, poor management, or zero opportunity. As soon as you are poor, asset-less and without debt, you are a non-person bludger.

[TheDemonLord]

You can be in that state in an instant without knowing it has happened. And EVERYONE, without fail, just labels you a fuckwit failure and you deserve it. Irrespective of circumstance. As soon as it has happened you are part of the problem. There is no delineation between bad luck, poor management, or zero opportunity. As soon as you are poor, asset-less and without debt, you are a non-person bludger.

For sure - but let me Channel the spirit of Cassina for the moment:

Would you say that in those situations (just like riding) there are decisions that you can make that can limit your exposure and mitigate risk?

But for clarity - My ire is not so much directed at those who have found themselves suddenly in poverty (bad investment, lost job etc.) as despite my comment above, I have sympathies there. What irks me are those who cannot support themselves, either financially or mentally, who go on to have children without the means to raise them, and then expect (and in some cases demand) that others pay for their choices. Like when you hear of people on the Benefit/Dole complaining that they don't get enough and say things like "Well, why shouldn't my kids have a nice Christmas?" or "Why shouldn't they have a holiday?".

[jasonu]

I didn't know Trump was involved.....

It was the Russians.....what a joke!!!

[Brian d marge]

You can be in that state in an instant without knowing it has happened. And EVERYONE, without fail, just labels you a fuckwit failure and you deserve it. Irrespective of circumstance. As soon as it has happened you are part of the problem. There is no delineation between bad luck, poor management, or zero opportunity. As soon as you are poor, asset-less and without debt, you are a non-person bludger.But ur not , they sold ur future earning before your age of 7. Of which you can claim back.
Don't ask how, I got so lost in legalese it took months of kb therapy before I came right again.
Even down to the correct type of blue paper ,otherwise the claim in null and void
I kid u not

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Brian d marge]

For sure - but let me Channel the spirit of Cassina for the moment:

Would you say that in those situations (just like riding) there are decisions that you can make that can limit your exposure and mitigate risk?

But for clarity - My ire is not so much directed at those who have found themselves suddenly in poverty (bad investment, lost job etc.) as despite my comment above, I have sympathies there. What irks me are those who cannot support themselves, either financially or mentally, who go on to have children without the means to raise them, and then expect (and in some cases demand) that others pay for their choices. Like when you hear of people on the Benefit/Dole complaining that they don't get enough and say things like "Well, why shouldn't my kids have a nice Christmas?" or "Why shouldn't they have a holiday?".Btw less than half of the social security bugdet is claimed by the hard done by
14 % off top of head is claimed by Bennie bashers
Over and it is just over 50% is claimed by the oldies pension

Save the money let the largest drain on the budget pay their own way ..fk em ,
Had their chance , did fk all so fk em



If ya wa

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[gsxr]

It is as it is. The decision tonight is the result of a MMP system that exists in NZ currently.
Many will be happy and many will be disappointed with the final result. That is no different to a final result
of a FPP system on election night.
Whether this partnership will work remains to be seen.Full details of the coalition have not been released to date nor
solid and sound economic policy which is paramount.
Personally 2 policies that wernt election issues were justice and the setting up of a CCRC and commuter rail for Christchurch which is part of both Labour and NZ First policy.
National steadfastly opposed both of these obviously to maintain the protectionist system within their control.
Whilst neither of the policies will be acted upon in the immediate future it at last opens the previously locked doors to such proposals.

[Grumph]

It is as it is. The decision tonight is the result of a MMP system that exists in NZ currently.
Many will be happy and many will be disappointed with the final result. That is no different to a final result
of a FPP system on election night.
Whether this partnership will work remains to be seen.Full details of the coalition have not been released to date nor
solid and sound economic policy which is paramount.
Personally 2 policies that wernt election issues were justice and the setting up of a CCRC and commuter rail for Christchurch which is part of both Labour and NZ First policy.
National steadfastly opposed both of these obviously to maintain the protectionist system within their control.
Whilst neither of the policies will be acted upon in the immediate future it at last opens the previously locked doors to such proposals.

It will indeed be interesting to see how the ChCh recovery policies differ. Those outside Canterbury don't want to hear just how much of promised work hasn't been done - or started. And I note that the Kaikoura quakes are starting to show the same skewed priorities as we saw in Chch.

[Woodman]

I don't believe that Jacinda Adearn shaves her armpits.

[MGST]

It is as it is. The decision tonight is the result of a MMP system that exists in NZ currently.
Many will be happy and many will be disappointed with the final result. That is no different to a final result
of a FPP system on election night.

Yes it will be different to FPP on election night. The system is clearly broken when a minority party who scraped in barely above the minimum 5%, and are effectively a one-man show, get to decide who will govern the country. On the news this morning they said that, amoung other things, Winston went with Labour because the country wanted change. How can that be when National won on the night with a clear margin? Stupid old fool needs be put out in the back paddock. This kind of thing makes a joke of the whole system, and makes the country look like a backwater.

[pete376403]

I don't believe that Jacinda Adearn shaves her armpits.

Neither does Bill English

[Swoop]

Hang on a minute. The Greens haven't made a decision yet.
Let's hope that they have NO access whatsoever to the treasury portfolio.

Winston is pretty clearly getting revenge on the Nazis for (as he saw it) fucking him over in 96 or whenever it was...
Correct. When he was promised "more seats" by national but was then shafted by Bolger / Shipley swapping seats and renegging on the deal.


It is odd to see so many NZF "ministers" and is well out of proportion to the numbers represented on election night.
So much for "negotiations", as I posted previously this was nothing less than a hostage situation.


Let's hope that another massive natural disaster does not hit the country.

[Paulo]

Loved seeing that smarmy Fuck Hoskings looking like he is going to cry, and today he's whinging on the radio and in print that the sky is falling what a jumped up alarmist little cunt. In NZ there's not that much difference between our left and right no ones going to be paying more taxes and hopefully there will be less corporate crime (which cost' the tax payer ten times more than paying the bennies)
I am not going to miss seeing Paula Bennett Simon Bridges the nasty troll Judith ('my chinese Businessman husband is raping our country for profit') Orivida Collins the fucking useless Brownlee who has done fuck all for Christchurch, The vain Maggie Barry (i'm still a TV star), Nick 'fuck you all motorcylists' Smith or that 19 year old tobbacco lobbyist that Southland voted in for fuck sake (who never shows up for work)

I still maintain that the only person to enter parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes.

Fun times.

[Woodman]

Neither does Bill English

Yeah but Bill is a bloke. Seriously she doesn't even try to flash herself at all. She is representing our country now, the least she could do is get a complete makeover.

[ellipsis]

Yeah but Bill is a bloke. Seriously she doesn't even try to flash herself at all. She is representing our country now, the least she could do is get a complete makeover.


...when you take your hand off your cock, go and clean your teeth and get a haircut...wanker...