A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[PrincessBandit]

"Grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an apprecaition..."
Certainly sounds like it to me.

Ah but Noel, he didn't say "Noel, grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an appreciation..."
If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, then put it aside.

p.s. Katman, that was a lovely double negative back there "not me neither", so what are you trying to say? huh? huh?

[shrub]

First thing to address is to make people realise that motoring is serious business. Making obviously flawed commercials and putting forward idiotic slogans is probably counter-productive in this regard.

I often compare riding a bike with flying (I did pilot training many years ago), and a pilot in a Cessna faces less risks on a bad day than a road user faces on a good day - you trim your aircraft, set your throttle and point. There is nothing in sight and if there is you have radio contact with air traffic control to warn you well before they come along and the sky doesn't get repaired, yet the licensing requirements for a pilot are incredibly rigorous - after 20 hours and spending enough money to buy a good bike I called it quits, yet I wasn't even half way to getting my PPL.

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120? Maybe the completely incompetent would chicken out and stay home? And what if we made the roads around town narrower and took away traffic lights etc? You couldn't relax while you were driving which means you'd have to pay attention. Maybe the reason foreign drivers are good and considerate drivers is because they learn to drive in an environment that punishes lapses in concentration and acts of agression?

Maybe we should let the environment be the policeman? How focussed are you on a tight windy road? How likely are you to make a stupid mistake compared to when you're on the motorway?

And the idiotic ads and catchphrases are counterproductive IMHO. "I'm doing the speedlimit, therefore I'm driving safely and can relax".

[yungatart]

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120?

Interesting that yiou should say that. The plains on the Napier - Taupo Rd has to be one of the most boring bits of road I have ever driven/ridden. At 100 ks one almost falls asleep....it is more pleasant, more stimulating and arguably safer to travel at speeds way in excess of the speed limit along there. Trouble is, it has a heavy police presence too....

[The Stranger:Me]

Ah but Noel, he didn't say "Noel, grow up, get some responsibility, some humility and an appreciation..."
If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't, then put it aside.

The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.
My point, though obviously I didn't make it adequately, is not about telling me personally what I should or shouldn't do, that's irrelevant, I shall ignore his message anyway and continue to ride as I see fit.
My point is about those that adopt a condescending attitude of I know what's best for you. But then after so many years of a labour government perhaps people have become accustomed to this and stopped thinking for themselves.

[Katman]

The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.

But who then shall I take to the Ball?

[Ixion]

..

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120?...

For each individual combination of rider, bike, road, and conditions there is a "sweet speed". A speed at which everything comes together. This may be anything from 50kph to 180 kph (for me: others might extend that). Clearly the upper range is rare. At speeds above OR below that sweet spot, one is less safe.

[The Stranger:Me]

But who then shall I take to the Ball?

Why the princess of course hillbilly.

[Mikkel]

No disrespect to your mate Horse, but if you allow tourists to drive here it doesn't matter what training you give them you will always have cases of them reverting back to instinct and driving on the wrong side of the road. It is not necessarily a sign that they are poor drivers, it is just a fact of life in these days of international travel and tourism. The only way to prevent this kind of thing happening is to ban foreign drivers, which will never happen.

You could argue that the most efficient way of preventing motorcycle fatalities would be to ban motorcycles... and hopefully that will never happen.

Truth be told, driving on the other side is easy - no matter which way you go. It is easy - as long as there's other traffic around you. The problem in NZ is most likely that there's bugger all traffic outside the cities - which, understandably, is where all the tourists go. So you got the arrows painted on the road around lay-bys, scenic viewpoints and reserves... Yes, tragic accident still happens due to people crossing the centreline - but such accidents doesn't only happen due to tourists driving on the wrong side of the road. However, people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that it's the only thing that could have happened whenever it's mentioned a tourist was involved.

If anything we should be concerned about letting tourists loose in big effing campervans on unfamiliar, windy and in places somewhat poor roads. And that we do this with people who may only ever have driven a compact car around Hamburg. Unfamiliar vehicle, unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar rules - each of these factors provide a negative synergy with the others.

I have often commented on how driver inattention is arguably the biggest killer, and was ultimately what took Ewan out, and driver inattention is preventable. I know Our Masters Who Art in Wellington would choke on their Lattes, but maybe 100 kmh is a problem? Would people pay attention if they and everyone else was doing 120? Maybe the completely incompetent would chicken out and stay home? And what if we made the roads around town narrower and took away traffic lights etc?

Yes, but you have to remember that people consider themselves immortal until otherwise proven. I mean consider India - no one in their right mind would consider getting on a scooter in a place where might makes right and the traffic density is that high.

Raise the speedlimit to 120 km/h and people will just be indifferent and oblivious at 120 km/h instead of 100 km/h. Impose rigorous standards for licensing and make driving without a license "too expensive" to be worth contemplating and maybe you'd see a change. Or even better, actively encourage people to think for themselves and only punish dangerous and anti-social behaviour.

Interesting that yiou should say that. The plains on the Napier - Taupo Rd has to be one of the most boring bits of road I have ever driven/ridden. At 100 ks one almost falls asleep....it is more pleasant, more stimulating and arguably safer to travel at speeds way in excess of the speed limit along there. Trouble is, it has a heavy police presence too....

Of course there is. Because it is a safe place to speed, it's a great place to gather revenue.

[shrub]

If anything we should be concerned about letting tourists loose in big effing campervans on unfamiliar, windy and in places somewhat poor roads. And that we do this with people who may only ever have driven a compact car around Hamburg. Unfamiliar vehicle, unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar rules - each of these factors provide a negative synergy with the others.

What you say makes a lot of sense - I remember talking to the garage owner in Haast and he said he sometimes has to go and collect massive great campervans and drive them back for the simple reason that the driver is terrified and just can't handle the roads and vehicle. Unfortunately the majority stick it out.

Your comment about the factors providing negative synergy was especially interesting and can apply to motorcycling. I have just had an interesting meeting with David Golightly. David is especially concerned about motorcycle safety, partly because it costs his company money when people have an off and mostly because he's a motorcyclist himself. We talked about some of the recent fatalities and serious accidents, and identified that there are a series of risk factors that are common to all accidents and the more of these factors, the greater the risk. They include: new bike, inexperience, tiredness, weather and road conditions, bike etc, and we worked out that if there was a system where people could tally up the risk factors affecting them at that time it might help people identify times of high risk and either not ride or ride accordingly.

[steve_t]

I've not rented a campervan before but don't the have a massive f-off sign on the dash saying "Keep Left!"?

[quickbuck]

I've not rented a campervan before but don't the have a massive f-off sign on the dash saying "Keep Left!"?

Many rentals do now.... BUT there is an even bigger clue.... The wheel right in front of you. This doesn't compute in a brain of habit though.

Now, on a similar topic... Tourist on Motorcycle... Nothing on the bike indicates what side of the road to ride on...

All a bit off topic, as we have established that vehicles on the wrong side of the road have only a small number of accidents compared with other factors.

[caseye]

The shoe does fit but I shall put it aside anyway.
My point, though obviously I didn't make it adequately, is not about telling me personally what I should or shouldn't do, that's irrelevant, I shall ignore his message anyway and continue to ride as I see fit.
My point is about those that adopt a condescending attitude of I know what's best for you. But then after so many years of a labour government perhaps people have become accustomed to this and stopped thinking for themselves.

Hang on a danged blame minute here, I am still here and reading your post with a certain amount of amusement, who is telling who what to do here?I was offering a means by which we could reduce the number of motorcycle accidents drasticaly, all it would require is a minority of NZ's bike riders to acquire some actual personal responsibility, to ride sensibly and safetly,Have I said you must observe the speed limit at all times? have I said you must always give way to cars?No I have not.
Yes my comments are generalised, they have to be, your points of difference are I suspect merely to provoke arguement rather than to find some sort of common ground or heaven forbid agreement on what "could"be done by us, ourselves with little or no cost/expense or drama.
Condesenction is not something I practice or take kindly too, I've voted Labour once or twice in my many years, I'm not somone who allows others to go in front of me if there is danger present, I do speak my mind and I will argue coherently with anyone who wishes to do so for as long as it takes to get a point across.
For instance, it is my considered opinion that if the two riders I mentioned in my last posts scenario were both sensible generally law abiding types, they'd still compete. but the pair of them would arrive at thier destination, not one or none, why because if they both realised the danger of going outside theirs and other road users safety zones there'd be no accompanying accident, no mess to clean up and so it goes on.
Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers and who see the cowboys doing this sort of shit everyday shouldn't be able to say so publically and to try and educate them not to be cowboys and go on killing their friends and innocent motorists?
Just my opinion.

[The Stranger:Me]

Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers and who see the cowboys doing this sort of shit everyday shouldn't be able to say so publically and to try and educate them not to be cowboys and go on killing their friends and innocent motorists?
Just my opinion.

Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers who see people wearing substandard protective gear shouldn't be able to say so publicly and try to educate them not to?

Can you give me one good reason why we as bikers who see people not wearing hi vis vests shouldn't be able to say so publicly and try to educate them?

Can you give me one good reason why politician who see all motorcycles as dangerous simply because they are not shrouded in tin and covered in air bags shouldn't be able to say so publicly and legislate them off the road for their own safety?

In short, no I can't and of course you're welcome to your opinion, and you are welcome to voice it.
Just as I am sure you will no doubt agree that I am welcome to ride fast and anyone else is welcome to try and keep up, or overtake me if they see fit.

[Waxxa]

Rider training: wont happen in large numbers because it is cost prohibitive.

ATGATT: wont happen sufficiently because we are individuals and we make our own decisions

Attitude: you are talking about NZers, difficult to change driving attitude

Tourists: most tourists who come to NZ experience much better road conditions in their home countries and then come here to NZ

Road conditions: This is something we can actually action on as road users. If those parties are held accountable for the conditons of the roads here in NZ (roading contractors etc) then we will actually see a difference in accidents statistics. So lets focus on what we can improve rather than discussions going around in circles.

[caseye]

Ride as fast or as slowly as you feel comfortable with.I'm sure that by now you know your limits and only push them when theres no one else around to be caught up if anything goes wrong, certainly thats how I do it.To do anything else would be counter productive and quickly bring on the scenario I mentioned earlier.
Inability to control a vehicle of whatever type contributes to people dying unnecessarily.
Inattention contributes to people dying unnecessarily.
Mostly though, attitude kills more people than any other single factor, whether it be bikes, cars, trucks or mopeds.
Thats what I am suggesting we should be making some attempt as a group of afected people to change.
Your opinions are as valuable as anyone elses and if change comes of them then that is a good thing.