Submission on proposed Auckland congestion charges

[Hoon]

Yeah I'm not entirely convinced Motorcyles should be exempt - maybe charged less but not exempt. A motorcycle only has the advantage over a car if that car has a single occupant. A car with 2 occupants has a similar footprint to 2 motorcycles and any more the motorcycle is actually worse off. I don't see why a motorcyle should be exempt when a car with 3 people must pay a toll when they are doing more to help congestion.

Motorcycle use as a solution to traffic congestion isn't at top of my list.

Number one would be to improve the vehicle/passenger ratio. If every car had a minimum of 2 people in it, this would almost half traffic congestion. Tolls would encourage this.

Number two would be to improve Public transport. Yes it sucks but before it can get better, people need to start using it to inject the funds. To get people to use it would take driving as an option to suck even more. Tolls would encourage this.

Number three would be more bike and scooter use. Motorcycle exemption would encourage this. The only problem is once vehicle/passenger ratio and public transport improves, the benefits of motorcyle use actually decreases. I can see this reaching the stage where motorcycles would have to be charged again so I see why the council would favour charging them from the get go instead of introducing it further down the line amidst much opposition.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yeah I'm not entirely convinced Motorcyles should be exempt - maybe charged less but not exempt. A motorcycle only has the advantage over a car if that car has a single occupant. A car with 2 occupants has a similar footprint to 2 motorcycles and any more the motorcycle is actually worse off. I don't see why a motorcyle should be exempt when a car with 3 people must pay a toll when they are doing more to help congestion.

Motorcycle use as a solution to traffic congestion isn't at top of my list.

Number one would be to improve the vehicle/passenger ratio. If every car had a minimum of 2 people in it, this would almost half traffic congestion. Tolls would encourage this.

Number two would be to improve Public transport. Yes it sucks but before it can get better, people need to start using it to inject the funds. To get people to use it would take driving as an option to suck even more. Tolls would encourage this.

Number three would be more bike and scooter use. Motorcycle exemption would encourage this. The only problem is once vehicle/passenger ratio and public transport improves, the benefits of motorcyle use actually decreases. I can see this reaching the stage where motorcycles would have to be charged again so I see why the council would favour charging them from the get go instead of introducing it further down the line amidst much opposition.

Cool, but I would like to urge you to make a submission.

What you are suggesting re multi passenger cars is effectively car pooling. I can't recall ever seeing it work anywhere. Perhaps those coming in from the shore could correct me on this. There are too many variables for it to work on a scale large enough to make a difference. Everyone you ask has a different reason why they don't car pool, and lets face it, there is enough incentive now (cost) and people still don't/wont can't. Plus if they do allow that the biggest car poolers will be mum and the kids, which co-incidentally is a huge source of the problem as is evidenced by traffic flows during holiday periods, so I doubt they will encourage this.

So I doubt you will see 2 occupant cars to any great degree and I really would have thought that it would be more like 4 bikes to a car. The worst time for congestion is the time stopped, at this time you can fit a lot of bikes in a car space. Cars blocking intersections prevent cars moving, but not bikes, bikes move away from the light quicker, therefore on a single phase more bikes would fit through than cars, creating less congestion.

[Hoon]

Ohh by the way CaN I have registered and cut'n'pasted your submissions (except the student bit - they have it too easy these days!).

The impartial unbiased critic may agree with my last post but the biker in me would like nothing better than seeing more bikes and bikers, cheaper parts and gear and more racers on the starting grid!!

Plus I aint one to rain on your parade - I admire someone that stands up for what they believe in and inspires others. Nice job!

[Ixion]

Some places overseas actually work on a "occupants per" basis. Problem is that it requires a human manned toll gate thingy to do it. The proposal here is based on there being no humans collecting tolls, all done by transponders and cameras etc.

Human manned toll booths push the collection costs WAY up. But transponders can't tell how many people are in the car.

Motorcycles are efficient in this respect, in that the metal/person ratio is as high as a car with 4 people or a bus with about 10 or 12. Hence the arguement for either exemption or reduction. Exemption is simpler because you'd start to get some pretty small numbers on some of the schemes.

Also, noone has gotten transponders to work very well on bikes yet (the Aussies are trying hard). The units are big (by "put in your pocket" standards) and delicate and not waterproof. On a car it's easy to mount. On a bike you either have to carry it in a pocket (difficult and could be dangerous in a crash). Or somehow waterproof and vibration proof it. Technically, they are feasible. But in practice, there are heaps of problems. Though technology is ever advancing , so I would be cautious of saying that it won't work by the time anything gets off the drawing board.

Cameras on bikes is an even bigger problem as we know from speed cameras. And if the cameras can't pick up the untranspondered bikes, who would fit a transponder. "Yeah, I'm from out of town ,officer" .

I know in the States, and even in Oz, some bikers do carry the transponders. But that's cos there the alternative is you have to go through the human manned toll booth and pay anyway. And be delayed.

With no human manned booth, and relying on cameras, there's no reason for a bike to carry a transponder. And lots of excuses why not.

[Squeak the Rat]

Submissions close today.

[Darryboy]

Cheers for the copy/paste CaN.

[Karma]

Can you imagine what would happen if they had human manned tolls?

Biker pulls up
takes off gloves (and maybe helmet)
unzips jacket to try and find wallet
finds wallet, doesn't have cash so pays by EFTPOS
put card and receipt in wallet
put wallet back in jacket
zip up jacket
gloves (and helmet) back on
kick bike into gear and head off

Can you imagine how pissed the cagers would be sat behind you?

[vifferman]

I see the D'Auckland City Council have more or less said they don't give a damn what their ratepayers think - they're going to do what the council thinks is the 'right' thing as far as tolls and suchlike go.
So much for democracy...
And the MOT have received only 1000 submissions so far.

I bet it's just like "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" - they've buried the submission thing deeply in the Interdweb, and not publicised how to access it. And then if you do stumble across it, you have to wade though so many stats and so much bureaucrat-talk, it's a mission to get to the end to comment on it. Instead the citizenry (those who can be bothered) just blow off steam by writing letters to The Harold which go unheeded and accomplish little.

I reckon if this scheme does go through, some concerted public disobedience will have to be organised.

[The Stranger:Me]

I bet it's just like "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe" - they've buried the submission thing deeply in the Interdweb, and not publicised how to access it.

Well vifferman, unlike the movie, we have done the dirty work for you.
Just follow the link in the first post and all will be revealed.

[thehollowmen]

And lots of excuses why not.

No, that's an excuse as to why we should have a "disable the transponder" BBQ.
Yes officer, they don't make them well enough and the vibrations keep making the solder joints break.

:-D

[vifferman]

Well vifferman, unlike the movie, we have done the dirty work for you.
Just follow the link in the first post and all will be revealed.

I did, thanx.
My point was that the average Joe and Josephine, who don't belong to KiwiBiker and have such kind and helpful people to save them the effort, they'll end up going, "Whooahh!! This is too hard... but I'm only one person, so it won't matter if I don't put in my submission too."

[Swoop]

Submission done!

[Squeak the Rat]

I did, thanx.
My point was that the average Joe and Josephine, who don't belong to KiwiBiker and have such kind and helpful people to save them the effort, they'll end up going, "Whooahh!! This is too hard... but I'm only one person, so it won't matter if I don't put in my submission too."

You are right, it is complicated and wordy. But the link and process it was also well documented in the city council "magazines" that go to all rate payers, plus it's been in the news etc etc.

If it goes ahead, my first question if ANYONE who complains to me will be if they made a submission. If the answer is no, then talk to the

Good on every one here who is at least trying to make a difference

[Korea]

Done my bit. Big plug for bike use - here's hoping it helps

[Ixion]

Can you imagine what would happen if they had human manned tolls?

Biker pulls up
takes off gloves (and maybe helmet)
unzips jacket to try and find wallet
finds wallet, doesn't have cash so pays by EFTPOS
put card and receipt in wallet
put wallet back in jacket
zip up jacket
gloves (and helmet) back on
kick bike into gear and head off

Can you imagine how pissed the cagers would be sat behind you?

That happened in OZ. The gubberinment backed down. You forgot, it is unsafe to do all this while starddling the bike,. You need (for safety) to get off, stop the engine, and put the bike on its stand. Then get your card out etc.