Cheesecutter campaign

[swbarnett]

Bottom line. The barriers actually save lives - I dont hold any particular groups life in higher regard than anyone elses (excepth my own).

Sorry, but you hold motorcyclist's lives in lower regard by not using an appropriate barrier for all motorists.

New installations of WRB will be checked to see that they are the most appropriate treatment, but remember for the greater good? if the choice is no barrier, endangering the 99.6% of road users who arent motorcyclists or installing one, most engineers would run that risk.

Pity road engineers don't swear by the hippocratic oath - "First do NO harm".

[Nikolai_V]

Welcome aboard. It's good to see someone from the industry join the fray.

There are, however a couple of points you make I believe to be factually incorrect:


I'm no engineer but I take issue with the assertion that concrete takes more space than WRBs. According to the manufacturers instructions a buffer of 3m on either side is required to account for the distortion of the WRB when hit. As far as I am aware there is no such requirement for concrete. Concrete takes LESS room than WRBs.

Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing. Posts can be spaced closer together than this depending on application. State Highway lane widths are 3.5m plus a shoulder, a motorbike is how wide? most cars around about 2m wide also - plenty of room, also fatcor in the reduced impact speed due to deceleration because of the barrier (which concrete and armco do not achieve - they are re-directive only).

Again I make a point which doesnt matter to motorcyclists but is very important to teh majority of road users (i.e. cars,trucks) Concrete barriers are rigid. They do not dissipate energy, as they are in effect a concrete wall to be struck. if struck at an acute angle they are very damaging to vehicle occupants (as well as motorcyclists).

Internationally, its not the wire which is the issue, its the posts which do the damage.

Sorry, but this is not the same as the road toll. It may be the same number of deaths but an absolute death figure is meaningless when taken out of the context of population size. If the US had our road toll they'd be away laughing. Considering the number of kms done every year in NZ I don't believe that our road toll is anything to be worried about anyway. Especially when you consider the social cost of reducing it.

How is it different. both are transport modes - both scenarios around about the 400 dead per annum mark.

well if "our road toll is nothing to be worried about" whats, say worst case scenario another 2 or 3 dead motorcyclists then? christ, and you lot think engineers are callous.

Stuff thesocial cost of reducing it, how about the very real cost to society of all these dead citizens.

Any barrier is a hazard - it just depends on the circumstances. Anything in the road corriror hit at speed is a BAD THING, be it your nice cuddly concrete barriers (which roll cars on their roofs, bounce errant cars back into live lanes to cause more chaos, and still kill motorcyclists), armco (with nice posts to maim and lacerate sliding motorcyclists and barrier terminals which will kill you on impact (if on a bike), which trucks can punch through on occasion) or WRB which will give you a nasty fright as it shreds you on teh closely spaced posts). Shit with all this the road is a scary places - but get this, how about 2t blocks of metal at speeds of up to 120km/h, moving erraticly along the road in your way???

How do we cope??? not to mention fences (which someone dismissed before - those stats were for hospitalisations so someone is obviously getting hurt), pedestrians, cyclists, power poles, trucks, effluent from trucks, diesel, rain, darkness etc....

answers to the usual address....

[Nikolai_V]

Sorry, but you hold motorcyclist's lives in lower regard by not using an appropriate barrier for all motorists.

Crap, as i`ve said, a number is anumber. Save four lives by killing one, unfortunate but still a win. people insist on killing themselves on the road, all we can do is try and stop them

Pity road engineers don't swear by the hippocratic oath - "First do NO harm".

Easy mate, we`ll just take all the vehicles off - no harm then. Ha, or even better ban bikes, because they`re so dangerous (tongue in cheek)
While humans are on the network, accidents /crashes will occur.

most benefit to the most people most of the time. even doctors work on that theory. from what i`ve read the majority of people on here (and i mean no offense by my sweeping generalisation) routinely disregard traffic regulations because they`re (above teh law/ great riders / special because their mums said so. So teh mesures that would be nessecary to achieve that would be pretty unpalatable to you (just a hunch)

and we can do it now but society isnt ready for it. Intelligent cruise controls, gps tracking of speed and automated driver systems exist.

If we persist in killing ourselves in large numbers eventually they`ll be slapped on us by the moral majority - i dont want that to happen. I`ll take my freedom, even if that has to include the freedom to risk the unforgiving road environment.

[MSTRS:Me]

Concrete barriers are rigid. They do not dissipate energy, as they are in effect a concrete wall to be struck. if struck at an acute angle they are very damaging to vehicle occupants (as well as motorcyclists).

"Acute" means sharp, does it not? You mean at 'obtuse' (closer to 90degrees).
You conveniently forget about all the built-in features in today's cars...crumple zones, airbags (not all cars, sure, but getting there), seatbelts. We don't have all those luxuries.
Rare would be the case when any vehicle hits any barrier at close to square-on, except perhaps those on the outside of right-hand bends. But surely you have seen the Falcon result ??? Car drivers shudder when they see that and they suddenly understand our abhorrence of the cheesecutters, which are designed to be 'most effective?" when struck a glancing blow. And you also claim that trucks are stopped...oh, yeah? Think again.
We also are well aware that any barrier (or obstacle) can and will hurt, and we will do whatever we can to avoid hitting such a thing.
But making it almost impossible to avoid, coupled with an almost-guarantee of death, is not acceptable to us.

[swbarnett]

This is good. Someone with some technical knowledge to debate with.

Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing.

What happens when the posts are ripped from the ground?

How is it different. both are transport modes - both scenarios around about the 400 dead per annum mark.

400 per annum yes, but how many per vehicle or per km travelled?

well if "our road toll is nothing to be worried about" whats, say worst case scenario another 2 or 3 dead motorcyclists then? christ, and you lot think engineers are callous.

I'll paraphrase what I've said elsewhere (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=63658) - our road toll is damn near or below the minimum that can be expected from a fallible human population when the number of vehicles and kms travelled is taken into account.

Stuff thesocial cost of reducing it, how about the very real cost to society of all these dead citizens.

By "Social Cost" I'm talking about the eventual removal of all freedoms in pursuit of an unrealistic goal. I'd rather spend one day free than a lifetime as a slave.

Any barrier is a hazard

Agreed, but some are more of a hazard than others.

[swbarnett]

I know you're new to this forum but please be careful how you quote. I don't appreciate being misquoted. Use the "Preview Post" button to check the result before submittig the reply.

Crap, as i`ve said, a number is anumber. Save four lives by killing one, unfortunate but still a win.

This is never a win. This is just another way of saying that the end justifies the means.

Easy mate, we`ll just take all the vehicles off - no harm then. Ha, or even better ban bikes, because they`re so dangerous (tongue in cheek)
While humans are on the network, accidents /crashes will occur.

Bang on. This is the crux of my contention that the road toll isn't as bad as it's made out to be. At the same time we shouldn't be trying to make the road more dangerous than it already is.

most benefit to the most people most of the time.

This is called prejudice. It's been used as an excuse to squash minorities for millennia. Motorcyclists are such a minority. What would happen if these barriers killed say Maori people more than Europeans. I don't think they'd last long.

even doctors work on that theory.

They don't knowingly kill anybody for the sake of one treatment being cheaper than another. They help those they can and go mad from stress over those they can't (from what I hear, I have no direct experience of this).

If we persist in killing ourselves in large numbers eventually they`ll be slapped on us by the moral majority - i dont want that to happen. I`ll take my freedom, even if that has to include the freedom to risk the unforgiving road environment.

The problem here is the relative nature of the term "large numbers". The numbers aren't that big. The only way to stop the moral majority is to convince them that things aren't as bad as they think they are. The extreme of society will always be seen as hoons no matter how safe they really are.

[Ixion]

Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing. Posts can be spaced closer together than this depending on application. State Highway lane widths are 3.5m plus a shoulder, a motorbike is how wide? most cars around about 2m wide also - plenty of room, also fatcor in the reduced impact speed due to deceleration because of the barrier (which concrete and armco do not achieve - they are re-directive only).

,,,

How the devil do you figure 'plenty of room' on those figures? By your own numbers , even if a car was hugging the extreme left of the lane (shoulder is irrelevant, it's several lanes over), it's still going to hit (1.7 + 2 > 3.5). In reality, the car won't be on the extreme left , and the driver, seeing the oncoming heading at him will not calmly do such a mathematical exercise. He'll panic and swerve left and collide with the traffic in that lane.

And even if the cheescutter slows down the on coming , the other vehicle is still going to T bone it at 100kph !

Nor do any of your arguments serve to justify the left hand cheescutters, protecting the scrubby fields.

[WelshWizard]

Hi, i`m new here, (post No.2) and in teh great NZ tradition i`d like to have my 2c worth on this topic, seeing as its something i both know a bit about, (being a roading engineer) and have an interest in, being a motorcyclist.

Like it or not, engineering is all about a utilitarian good, the best outcome for the greatest number of people. Barriers cost money, concrete barriers cost more than armco, which costs more than brifen. More barriers equal less head on collisions (which incidentally result in casualty accidents in motorcyclists at a rate four times higher than car drivers), which equals less casualties.

Engineers design items by takeing into account all possible flaws, only a porr quality engineer fails to take into account all possible flaws in the system they design, thats why many countries are makeing these WRB illegal, and removing them because the design was found to be flawed.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Welcome aboard Nikolai_V Nice to have your input.

As I read all the teck stuff here I realise you are all way smarter than me. I can understand what you say but I only see it from a basic level.
If you have read my input here you will realise I am a reactive emotive person that finds it hard to put in to written word what I am thinking. So here we go in short.

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.

Tell me this. Is it ok to kill one person to save another? The difference being one rides a motorbike and one drives a car. Or is it better to install life saving barriers for all but fewer of them?

I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

[sunhuntin]

Welcome aboard Nikolai_V Nice to have your input.

As I read all the teck stuff here I realise you are all way smarter than me. I can understand what you say but I only see it from a basic level.
If you have read my input here you will realise I am a reactive emotive person that finds it hard to put in to written word what I am thinking. So here we go in short.

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.

Tell me this. Is it ok to kill one person to save another? The difference being one rides a motorbike and one drives a car. Or is it better to install life saving barriers for all but fewer of them?

I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

sounds like saving private ryan to me... risk x amount of lives for one.

and as for nikoli's comment about concrete being dangerous even for bikers, i repeat my comment about pro racers hitting them at upwards of 200k and walking away. how do they do this if concrete is bad for bikers?

[MSTRS:Me]

and as for nikoli's comment about concrete being dangerous even for bikers, i repeat my comment about pro racers hitting them at upwards of 200k and walking away. how do they do this if concrete is bad for bikers?

Depends on the angle of impact, at any speed. It's the sudden stop that does the damage.
Which is where the cheesecutter fails us...there is a sudden stop at no matter what angle you strike it.

[MSTRS:Me]

Just a thought, how many of you would fly domestically, if you knew that two 737`s would crash each year killing all aboard?? - same as the road toll.

Sorry to bring this one up again, but...2 x 737 = 400 odd passengers as a percentage of the world's population of some 6 billion. Hardy compares, risk-wise.

[sunhuntin]

Depends on the angle of impact, at any speed. It's the sudden stop that does the damage.
Which is where the cheesecutter fails us...there is a sudden stop at no matter what angle you strike it.

cheers for that. still safer than most other types of barriers though.

[WelshWizard]

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.



I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

Seems to me we should be demanding that the designer of these WRBs should be prosecuted for Criminal negligence, for they are fully aware that these kill motorcyclist, maim motorcyclist, and very few motorcyclist walk away unscathed from any impact with WRBs or there Posts, and as they kill with ease the installer should be held responsible also, after all it would seem that the attitude is Bugger the motorcyclist we can live with any that get killed maimed or hurt, it's all a matter of price.

On the matter of Price

Watch the video on this website
http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/

On another note Nikolai_V states he is a Roading Engineer, does this mean he works for LTNZ or is a subcontractor doing repairs and maintenance to roads or is involved with the design and construction of new roads.

If in the employ of LTNZ then we all know where they are coming from now.

[WelshWizard]

From
http://bike.mywowbb.com/view_topic.p...213502#p213502

ExpatinIstanbul wrote:
Ok, found it. There's an article in MCN, December 12th issue, page 10. I aint gonna quote it as there's copyright stuff to consider. For those who don't know, MCN is a sister publication to Bike.

Oi! New editor boy! It seems that Bike readers want to read this article, should fill up a few pages of the next issue of Bike.

These barriers were installed on the Bosporous sea road, in Istanbul, but the local pikeys nicked them the night after installation. Outside a police station. With an armed guard outside. Bribery has been mentioned.

Seems the lads in Turkey have a different method of dealing with WRBs