Road crash investigations?

[The Stranger:Me]

BRONZ did try to get hold of the data used to compile the published statistics.
This was not forthcoming. Although it would have been possible to obtain it under the official information act the cost was prohibitive.

One wonders why they were reluctant to release the data, however we know they have a history of NOT releasing data that doesn't concur with thier pre-determined conclusions.

[Nasty]

I should be receiving a copy of the serious crash report regarding Grubs accident. I already have the autopsy ...

They have said that I will recieve a copy ... and as in my tour report (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=90018) - I will share appropriate details.

[86GSXR]

BRONZ did try to get hold of the data used to compile the published statistics.
This was not forthcoming. Although it would have been possible to obtain it under the official information act the cost was prohibitive.

One wonders why they were reluctant to release the data, however we know they have a history of NOT releasing data that doesn't concur with thier pre-determined conclusions.

What the hell is up with that then? As has been pointed out, most forms of transportation incidents and accidents are freely and easily available for the education of all users. To not publish information that WILL educate others is irresponsible. It is said that the rules are written in the blood of others, and in aviation, reading the reports is considered a vital part of the no blame safety culture. Somethings not quite right with land transport if that information is not available.

I should be receiving a copy of the serious crash report regarding Grubs accident. I already have the autopsy ...

They have said that I will recieve a copy ... and as in my tour report (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=90018) - I will share appropriate details.

Exactly. Investigation reports are a great thing and should be available to all.

[The Stranger:Me]

What the hell is up with that then? As has been pointed out, most forms of transportation incidents and accidents are freely and easily available for the education of all users. To not publish information that WILL educate others is irresponsible. It is said that the rules are written in the blood of others, and in aviation, reading the reports is considered a vital part of the no blame safety culture. Somethings not quite right with land transport if that information is not available.



Exactly. Investigation reports are a great thing and should be available to all.

As I noted they have shall we say "unusual" priorities.
Policy is to NOT educate drivers. Educated drivers drive faster and as we know speed kills ergo the better a driver the greater the mess. Apparently driving is the only human endeavour where the better the education the worse the outcome.

Remember the side intrusion beam fiasco? They held back a report that showed our cars were inferior to other countries (possibly resulting in loss of life) so that speed could be blamed for our high road toll when compared to other countries.

They held back a report that noted that driving with your seat back 1" would significantly reduce head injury and death in cars. Why? That didn't support speed as a cause therefore was simply noise.

Speaking to a motorcycle cop just before christmas he noted that crests and rear brake lock ups were featuring in recent motorcycle deaths. IF this is so (I have no reason to doubt him), wouldn't it be handy for us to know this?

[Quasievil]

As you may have noticed, there are a couple of active threads going at the moment about recent motorcycle crashes.

Yeah and frankly they are boring as fuck, not to mention full of self rightesness and "we know all that crap" comments.

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

[86GSXR]

As I noted they have shall we say "unusual" priorities.
Policy is to NOT educate drivers. Educated drivers drive faster and as we know speed kills ergo the better a driver the greater the mess. Apparently driving is the only human endeavour where the better the education the worse the outcome.

Remember the side intrusion beam fiasco? They held back a report that showed our cars were inferior to other countries (possibly resulting in loss of life) so that speed could be blamed for our high road toll when compared to other countries.

They held back a report that noted that driving with your seat back 1" would significantly reduce head injury and death in cars. Why? That didn't support speed as a cause therefore was simply noise.

Speaking to a motorcycle cop just before christmas he noted that crests and rear brake lock ups were featuring in recent motorcycle deaths. IF this is so (I have no reason to doubt him), wouldn't it be handy for us to know this?

Very handy! Knowing this, and other causes, would save lives, no doubt about it! In a bit of a rush at the mo, so haven't searched the LTSA site thoroughly, but check this out. It's a direct link to honest and open safety reporting in aviaion. Can't see why road accidents shouldn't be dealt to in the same way?

http://www.caa.govt.nz/safety_info/f...nt_reports.htm

Yeah and frankly they are boring as fuck, not to mention full of self rightesness and "we know all that crap" comments.

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

Bugger. Bloody weather! Read some of the above reports perhaps, they make for very interesting reading and show exactly what went wrong.

[DougieNZ]

Transit NZ (or whatever they are now)

NZ Transport Agency at at 1 August 2008

[Ixion]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

[Nasty]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The no blame no shame theory of investigation is a great one used for many years in the aviation world .. its being adapted for health .. and we could learn so much more for road accidents if we followed the avaiation theories of investigation of finding a problem ... even if its a systemic cause and then addressing the issue.

[Jantar]

...
Me thinks that the driver was bull shitting... hence the cause was determined... Why couldn't he negotiate it at a slower speed when you and others could, at slightly higher speed???

This driver did not bullshit. He was a neighbour of mine (now deceased unfortunately), and I stopped just past the bend to see if he was OK. The road is steeply cambered at that point on the inside of the road, with not much camber on the outside of the bend, it is a tightish bend, and was even difficult to stand on the road surface at the point of the accident. Don also knew this road (hey, its the one we live on) and that particular bend is one we all treat with respect. Don just went too slow, maybe he touched his brakes, but he didn't recall doing so, next thing he was sliding to the inside of the bend. I'd like to know how excessive speed can cause that on black ice.

[Patrick]

And yeah im grumpy no break for two years finally get away and its fucken raining at the beach

So your grumpiness is to blame then...

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

A vast majority are committed because of a rule break, hence the ticket. When it is a true "accident," then no further action for the driver is taken.

This driver did not bullshit. He was a neighbour of mine (now deceased unfortunately), and I stopped just past the bend to see if he was OK. The road is steeply cambered at that point on the inside of the road, with not much camber on the outside of the bend, it is a tightish bend, and was even difficult to stand on the road surface at the point of the accident. Don also knew this road (hey, its the one we live on) and that particular bend is one we all treat with respect. Don just went too slow, maybe he touched his brakes, but he didn't recall doing so, next thing he was sliding to the inside of the bend. I'd like to know how excessive speed can cause that on black ice.

More info helps sometimes. A good outcome, although bad to hear he didn't make it...

[86GSXR]

Just so. I , and many others , have been arguing for years for an aviation style approach to road accidents. One aimed at determining what happened, and the causes of the cause, and if possible suggesting ways to prevent such a thing happening in the future. Rather than the present blame oriented, 'who can we give the ticket to' approach. It won't happen.

The police approach is based on the premise that motorists should be controlled by laws and rules. The laws and rules are perfect and if all motorists followed them there could never be any accident. Therefore , if an accident has occured, someone has broken the rules, and should (if still alive) be punished. There is no need to consider why the accident occurred, merely to figure out what rule was broken. Nor is there any need for education or training for the motorists, since all they need to know is what the rules are, and then obey them .

I wonder if that approach will ever work on this planet. It convieniently bypasses the biggest variable of all, the human factor.

The no blame no shame theory of investigation is a great one used for many years in the aviation world .. its being adapted for health .. and we could learn so much more for road accidents if we followed the avaiation theories of investigation of finding a problem ... even if its a systemic cause and then addressing the issue.

Yes, and it works. People respond quite well when not blamed, they take responsibility.

A vast majority are committed because of a rule break, hence the ticket. When it is a true "accident," then no further action for the driver is taken.

Yes, no legislation will ever work against fatigue, emotion, or just plain human fraility.

[vgcspares]

On the Traffic Crash Report side of things it seems they have become something of a revenue earning mechanism (like everything else), as copies have been frequently refused to people involved in an accident so that their insurance company has little choice but to spend $55 to get one ...

[SPman]

Me thinks that the driver was bull shitting... hence the cause was determined... Why couldn't he negotiate it at a slower speed when you and others could, at slightly higher speed???

Perhaps for the same reason that, should you go too slowly up the Mountain Access rd after a snow dump, you'll slither to a stop, (and then slide slowly off the road) but if you keep your momentum up, you can often get up without chains.......(done it often)
Mind you, you're probably right.....