Bike vs bike crashes - why so many?

[davebullet]

Seems to me there's a group thing going on... that is 2 or more motorcycles traveling in the same direction and or pillion passengers involved.

What I think is:
a) The front rider is too concerned with what the other riders are doing and not looking ahead enough (or ego pushing them to ride faster)
b) the rider at the back is focussing too much on the rider in front and not taking in surrounding hazards
c) pillion distraction

I don't have the stats to back up the hunch unfortunately.

[jrandom]

In relation to "the incident" I doubt the boys did much more than go "fuck"

Yeah. That wasn't an 'overcooking and running wide' situation, though, was it; it was a 'committing to an overtake around a blind corner' situation.

I'd definitely agree that sometimes it's quite possible to make a riding decision that puts you past the point where anything's salvagable.

When a Bike is coming one way "fast" and another bike is going the other way "fast" a little ole dum human brain cant allow for fuck all.......it basically freezes..... if your on the wrong side of the road its game over rover

Yup, that's true.

I'm just gonna do whatever I can within the limitations of physics and reaction time.

And that's simply gonna be - turn right.

That video you posted is a shocker; you can clearly see both the rider with the camera and the one he runs into just freeze up. There was heaps of time and space there to avoid the crash, and both bikes were basically upright when they hit.

Sad.

So I'm saying, let's visualise and prepare for that situation on the road - a quarter of a second less "huh?" time might save our arses.

[The Stranger:Me]

A bike takes up maybe a third of the space in a lane. Maybe less. And yet people, given the whole road to play in, keep riding into each other.

Not so sure it's that easy in every case.
If you are entering a blind left hander, committed to a line and you find someone else coming at you on your line perhaps at a closing speed of 200kph how much time do you have to react and correct?

[Ixion]

I agree with the random gentleman . I queried this in another thread. Maybe 4 or 5 times in my riding career I have been confronted by the "vehicle coming out of a corner on my side of the road". In each case I have managed to avoid it. Only one was a bike though, but logically a bike should be easier, being narrower. After all , almost any road is wide enough for one car, and two bikes side by side.

I'm not so sure about the swerve right though. OK if there is nothing alongside the errant bike. But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

My suspicion is that most riders stupid enough to precipitate such a situation won't have a clue what to do and will either freeze on their present line, or hit the brakes . I'd go left, by default. But obviously every situation is different: one must make the call on the day.

[jrandom]

If you are entering a blind left hander, committed to a line and you find someone else coming at you on your line perhaps at a closing speed of 200kph how much time do you have to react and correct?

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.

Personally, I'll just take whatever I can get and work with it however I can.

And I figure that expecting this shit to happen and pre-planning my response will shave precious tenths of seconds off the reaction and decision time and put them in the steering time.

What I think is:
a) The front rider is too concerned with what the other riders are doing and not looking ahead enough (or ego pushing them to ride faster)
b) the rider at the back is focussing too much on the rider in front and not taking in surrounding hazards
c) pillion distraction

All quite probable causes, and good points made.

But that's not what I started this thread to discuss.

I have zero hope of actually stopping idiots from crossing the centerline. They do it, end of story. We can probably assume that anyone reading this thread and thinking about it probably doesn't ride like that, so there's no point carrying on about how bad it is to cross centerlines.

What I want to do here is come up with (and share) a plan for dealing with those idiots when they're riding toward me.

[prettybillie]

Mmm yes, there was also a 3 bike pile-up on the Coatesville-Riverhead Highway yesterday.

Possibly too many people thinking they are Rossi and trying (and failing) to race-apex every corner, rather than taking advantage of the plethora of quality trackdays available in which to hone their skills.

or summer weather has brought all the "born-again bikers" out to play, and their skills are rusty.

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

[Hitcher]

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

I hope that this doesn't become yet another "biker down" thread.

[jrandom]

But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

Mmyes.

That situation's a bit different, too, because the oncoming bike hasn't forced itself right - it's been intentionally steered onto the other side of the road to go around the car.

So you can probably assume that the rider retains more control of their line.

I agree that if it's an oncoming bike-overtaking-a-car situation, going left is a better option. Going right is more appropriate for the overcooked-squid scenario.

[Brian d marge]

If your are riding to the conditions , and with a good position on the road , there aint going to be a problem , ( unless they leap out off the sky ....

These 40 + just bought a bike ( had a Honda 50 when I was a lad ) , scare the nuts of me as well , ..

The Government , will do something if it cost em money ,,,so be prepared and there is no point complaining after the fact ,,,,


We as a group should take more responsibility, Bike shops should give/instist /beg the older rider to take a advanced course ,,, and we as a group , shoud try and kull the testoterone ,,

Im with J on this one . WTF !


Stephen

[Hitcher]

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.

Steering one's bike directly in front of another coming directly at you which is piloted by a Certified Idiot(TM) seems like an intrinsically dodgy thing to do. Mind you I suppose I may have been beaten to a pulp once too often by an irate soccer coach as a youth for passing the ball across the face of my own goal to be qualified to make a sensible contribution on this matter.

[jrandom]

There has not been a lot of coverage of this crash - does anyone know who the riders are and are they okay?

No, nobody has a clue, and I won't say that we don't care, but I will politely ask you to not ask such things again in this thread, OK? I want it on topic.

[ManDownUnder]

Surely the go right rule is simply expressing "look at the gap", or "look at where you want to go, not the thing that'll hit you"... etc (all of which I agree with of course).

The difference is that looking for the gap, and hitting what you look at (i.e. the gap!) gives you more options in case they're appropriate as opposed to a blanket "turn right!". You do what you practice and if what you practice puts you under a truck then I'm against it.

I say learn and do it right first time - even though it's a bit harder. I think the extra time will be well worth it.

[jrandom]

Steering one's bike directly in front of another coming directly at you which is piloted by a Certified Idiot(TM) seems like an intrinsically dodgy thing to do.

Well, yes. I admit that turning right in that scenario is counter-intuitive. But often, on a motorcycle, the counter-intuitive action is the action that will save your life.

And I can't find a hole in the logic.

Although Ixion's point regarding the oncoming bike-overtaking-a-car situation is well founded. In that case, I think, it's better to go left.

[Beemer]

Yeah, I've seen that video before.

They're riding on the other side of the road there, so by my rule, if I was the guy who got taken out by the idiot, I'd be turning left as soon as I saw him on my side of the road.

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

Hope like hell it works for you. A mate lost his leg in a bike accident many years ago - an oncoming car overtook another car and he couldn't move to the right as the car that was being overtaken was there. I can't remember the full details but think there were parked cars on his left so he couldn't move there either. The overtaking car then pulled back into his own lane, clipping my mate as he did so, and tearing his leg off at the hip.

If it hadn't been for the fact he came off near an off-duty doctor's place, he would have bled to death before the ambulance arrived.

Whoever said motorcyclists are dicks was right - a large number of them do fall into that category. I am often called a wuss because I don't ride much on the road any more but it's because I get sick of the behaviour of some riders and motorists.

[peasea]

I agree with the random gentleman . I queried this in another thread. Maybe 4 or 5 times in my riding career I have been confronted by the "vehicle coming out of a corner on my side of the road". In each case I have managed to avoid it. Only one was a bike though, but logically a bike should be easier, being narrower. After all , almost any road is wide enough for one car, and two bikes side by side.

I'm not so sure about the swerve right though. OK if there is nothing alongside the errant bike. But if there are bike and car side by side, going right will probably take you into t he car.

My suspicion is that most riders stupid enough to precipitate such a situation won't have a clue what to do and will either freeze on their present line, or hit the brakes . I'd go left, by default. But obviously every situation is different: one must make the call on the day.

Unfortunately the missus and I have come across both bikes and cars in our lane on a couple of occasions. However, we tend to ride within our limitations (and that of our machines) meaning that we tend to be well inside our lane 99% of the time, leaving a fair slice of our lane for oncoming jerkoffs. My lady often gets ahead of me in the twisties (she having a Sporty while I ride a Dubya-G) but trying to catch a more nimble machine is not only fruitless it's dangerous. I like being alive and I like my paintjob, why screw everything for a minute or two off the trip or to gain some lame bragging right at the next stop?

The last time I made it into the opposing lane was in pissing rain heading for Hanmer Springs and on a gentle left-hander we encountered a major fuel spill. I stayed upright but I was well over the centreline. Nothing coming the other way but plenty was landing in jmy jocks.

You're right, just about every situation is different and you don't get to be an old biker by being a fuckwit all the time.