Bike vs bike crashes - why so many?

[jrandom]

You know I have read the thread and its interesting .. cos believe it or not all this theory and crap goes right out the window when it happens - in that .002 seconds you have to react.

Like I said earlier, it's more like .5 seconds. Think about it. Visualise it. In full-focus time-dilated mode, that's an eternity.

he had literally nowhere to go ...

Maybe. Maybe not. As you say, it was a long time ago. I wouldn't want to draw any fatalistic conclusions from the memory of it.

he whiteknuckled

Mm, indeed, and now we get to the nub of the matter - the rider's reaction.

If you genuinely don't think you have a hope of handling such situations, then don't ride on the road. Nobody will blame you for that.

But, as Ixion and others have said, this has in fact happened many a time, and been dealt with without crashes. And the simple physics of these situations do not always imply that bikes have to hit each other.

[James Deuce]

I think my signature says it all.

[BMWST?]

its also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)

[The Stranger:Me]

Probably about 500ms, which should be enough. A typical reaction time of 200ms, followed by 300ms of steering away from the oncoming bike as quickly as possible.

Hmm casting about in the source of all knowlege I find times varying from 0.7 for an expected event to 1.5 for a totally unexpected event. Your super human self aside, the rest of us may be in the poo I fear.

[jrandom]

I think my signature says it all.

I don't think it says it all, Jim. Fatalism can be... fatal.

[jrandom]

Hmm casting about in the source of all knowlege I find times varying from 0.7 for an expected event to 1.5 for a totally unexpected event.

Y'reckon?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

[Waxxa]

How many solo bike accidents since Xmas? And how many have been multi-bike accidents? It's making bad reading folks!
Egos, impatience, lack of skills and showing off to friends or partners I feel is the cause of the 'brain-fade' and leads to the making of wrong decisions.
2cents

[3umph]

the worst part with reaction times is that it means nothing because the majority of people when you are watching the other bike, car, tree or anything else that is going to hit you or what you are going to hit it then draws you into that object making an impact basicly a sure thing to happen. You go where you are watching...

Split second actions and reactions can and have saved accidents happening but to the majority of people most do not process and react quick enough.

[Squiggles]

I was riding through Lewis Pass at the weekend, waiting to overtake a slow moving cage in the twisties.

A line of bikes came the other way, waved to them all and they waved back. All had headlights on.

The cage moved left, and as I was about to pull out to pass a twat on a bike came the other way with no headlight, black helmet, black jacket etc. Bloody hard to see in a tree covered, shaded highway.

It would have been my fault if we had head onned, but is makes me wonder why people ride bikes while making every effort not to be seen.

The other day i was driving along in my cage, and i turned across the path of a bike, he had to brake hard and tooted. Its his fault for not wearing a hi-vis vest, having H4-plus bulbs, and going too fast.

Get my point? You were attempting to pass in an area where you could not clearly see the 100m ahead. This is the begining of what causes an accident...

[slofox]

Back in the day, as a Psychology student, I did a lot of work on reaction times. A fast "Expected Event" reaction time (visual reaction) was typically around 300ms...I could get mine down to the low 200's but then I was exceptional (wired, mostly, actually) in those days (cough cough). This, incidentally, was with persons in late teens to early twenties. Reaction time slows as we age. So I think a typical reaction time for the kind of event we are speaking of here would be in the range of 500ms 'cause it is NOT as "expected" as when you are waiting for a light to flash.
Why do you think the road code speaks of the "two second rule"?

I would rather err on the side of caution...

[SPman]

I have done the "dive to the right" thing once........however it was on a straight rd in a 50 k zone and the opposing vehicle was a mate in a Model A Ford............(it was a while ago). The look on his face as I passed on the other side of the road was priceless, but ..........

Like Mr Random, I have thought the same thing in relation to modern times, speeds and machinery..

The greatest fear is that, tightening right, the oncoming driver/rider goes "omigod" and instinctively tightens left.............I guess it all depends on circumstances as to what (if anything) you can do and, ultimately, blind luck.

[Squiggles]

Y'reckon?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

It should be expected, would you ride scenic drive and to piha without expecting a 4wd to cut a corner?

[James Deuce]

I don't think it says it all, Jim. Fatalism can be... fatal.

It's not fatalism.

The situations you are discussing would phase most professional racers, people accustomed to significantly higher speeds and odd events happening at those speeds than most road riders or club racers. You're talking about a fast approaching accident at closing speeds of anywhere from 180km/hr to 480 km/hr. 500m goes by during your reaction time at thos peeds, even if you pulled off the superhuman "I knew that was going to happen", no fixation, as fast as humanly possible 700ms response time, plus the steering input of about the same length of time make enough of a difference to direction to actually miss.

The root of the problem is the sheer, utter, arrogance of motorcyclists. They don't care about you, they don't care about themselves (apart from the adrenalin fix), and in the case of the Cruiser chaps they appear to be trying to impress their wives of 20 years or more. I've news for you chaps. They were impressed enough to marry you, just, but it's been all downhill since then.

[Ixion]

*shrug*

Do whatever you think works, hey.

What I would like people to take away from this thread, I think, is the idea that, regardless of the actual approach they take to the situation, visualisation before the fact is a tool that might save their arses.

This really is very very important. The reason that bikes involved in head ons with each other don't take evasive action is often because of the "WTF - this can't happening" reaction.

When confronted with something that we believe just should not be, our minds tend to lock up. This can be prevented by pre-visualising.

Regularly, on corners and such, put the picture into your minds eye of a car/SUV/bike dead in front of you when you come into the corner. Don't actually do anything, just visualise the possibility. (I usually use the memorised image of the last vehicle that went by). And think of what possibilities there are. Then when the situation really does occur (and sooner or later, it will) , instead of freezing with a "WTF - no this isn't right" reaction, you will at least do SOMETHING.

ts also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)

I disagree. Bikes are at least as manoeverable as cars. Just needs different inputs.

[The Stranger:Me]

Y'reckon?

I'd quite like to bring the 'oncoming bike' scenario down into the 'expected event' category, too. It certainly seems to be happening often enough that it should be.

Yes.
I think it fair to class it as unexpected and as a choice reaction - as the standard choice (brakes) would likely result in an accident anyway. I also think it fair to include the time to decide and effect a reaction in the context of a vehicle (not pressing a key in a lab), as without those elements the outcome is still an accident.