It's a sad day (Virginia University shootings, 16 April)

[ManDownUnder]

How so? Take away any of those factors and the crime does not happen.

You either miss, or sidestepped my point. It is possible for people to orchestrate the death of others through the use of a firearms (or knife, or joint of frozen meat for that matter). The weapon cannot be held responsible for the outcome.

Only the person can, as they are the only component in the scenario with freewill and autonomy.

The idea that tipping MORE guns into a society will prevent or lessen the impact of these crimes is ever so slightly dubious (at best).

Been to Switzerland? Seen the crime rate stats there? Ever come across the wee issue of every house having a gun in it?

To grossly oversimplify it - it's a cultural thing.

Sure he could use a bomb or poisen or another weapon of math destruction (it was a technical university) but in most cases they don't... Handguns are a serious problem in the hands of the disturbed, the bitter or Americans

No, in NZ the weapon of choice is a car, or arguably the lack of budget for curing prostate cancer or... but that's a whole other argument.

As previously mentioned, it's a cultural thing. Where there is discipline there is control. How many murderous shooting sprees happen in the Army? I really don't know but I'm willing to bet per gun owning head the civilian world has a higher murder/crime rate.

You're right. Pouring more guns in does not address the problem. They are simply going to accentuate the balance of power. Where there is general disorder, there's now going to be armed disorder.

Where there is order and control - there will now be armed order and control.

It IS a people thing.

[Paul in NZ]

Oh, do fuck off with that bullshit.

If I gave you a gun to walk around with, would you ever let that 'go to your head'?

If so, you're enough of a danger to society that you certainly shouldn't be given a driver's licence. Or, for that matter, allowed to breed and raise kids.

Normal, healthy individuals do not turn into power-crazed killers just because they have access to a weapon.



This is arguably true.

Thats a bit harsh....

Sure - but define 'normal' and then look at the numbers of people that are affected by mental health problems at some stage in their life and ask yourself what might happen if they just had a handgun handy there and then at the one moment they lost the plot... Look at the way normal healthy individuals act with alcohol and on the road?

[jrandom]

I know I was brought up around firearms and I know that all you need is proper education

Exactly.

It's easier to kill someone with a car than with a gun. Seriously.

What about incidents in this country within the past few years involving cars being used as weapons? Teenagers driving into groups of people that offended them?

I don't hear any consequent ranting about how we should ban cars because people turn into homicidal maniacs as soon as they get behind the wheel (although, come to think of it...)

Weapons in the hands of responsible, moral adults add to the moral fibre of a society. If only the sheeple with their irrational weapon-phobia could come to realise that, the criminals lurking in the outer fringes could be deprived of prey.

[ManDownUnder]

I know I was brought up around firearms and I know that all you need is proper education

ne'er a truer word spoken. And (dare I say it) if/when I abused the priveledge, shot a native bird, did something dangerous... I'd literally get my arse kicked.

And rightly so.

Sue Bradford - stick THAT up yer jumper.

[ghost]

Some of you are loosing the point. Guess which side of the fence I sit on by the following if you can.

Blaming a death or injury by firearm because some one miss-used it on the firearm, is akin to blaming the red 1998 Honda MPV that pull out in front of you from the side street with out looking.

Firearms and cars are inanamate objects, they dont operate by themselfs. Use them or dont use them. Like them or not. Dont blame these acts on them. Owning them doesnt turn you into a mass murderer, any more than owning that red 1998 Honda MPV turn you into a shithouse driver, you are what you are. Some people should be allowed them and some people shouldnt.

Sweden has a higher Gun to Populace percentage than America. But they dont have the crime. IE Its not the Guns its the society.

[jrandom]

weaponry being available, in moderation...

Actually, come to think of it, fuck moderation. I want an M2.

[Mr Merde]

......

It IS a people thing.....

Exactly right and until we reverse the current trend, fostered by the PC brigade, that it is always the fault of someone else or something else, and take responsibility for our own actions and decisions this dicsussion will go on and on.

[Paul in NZ]

You either miss, or sidestepped my point. It is possible for people to orchestrate the death of others through the use of a firearms (or knife, or joint of frozen meat for that matter). The weapon cannot be held responsible for the outcome.

Only the person can, as they are the only component in the scenario with freewill and autonomy.



Been to Switzerland? Seen the crime rate stats there? Ever come across the wee issue of every house having a gun in it?

To grossly oversimplify it - it's a cultural thing.



No, in NZ the weapon of choice is a car, or arguably the lack of budget for curing prostate cancer or... but that's a whole other argument.

As previously mentioned, it's a cultural thing. Where there is discipline there is control. How many murderous shooting sprees happen in the Army? I really don't know but I'm willing to bet per gun owning head the civilian world has a higher murder/crime rate.

You're right. Pouring more guns in does not address the problem. They are simply going to accentuate the balance of power. Where there is general disorder, there's now going to be armed disorder.

Where there is order and control - there will now be armed order and control.

It IS a people thing.

You make some good points that are hard to disagree with.

I agree - it's definately a people or cultural thing but god forbid we ever become like the swiss (you think traffic infringments are heavily policed here??).....

It's the semi auto handgun within easy reach of someone having one of those moments that scares me... Plus the thought of Vicki wandering about with a pearl handled .45 in her handbag scares the crap out of me. I can see her at the checkout looking for her eftpos card and tipping the contents of the bag out to look for it (bag usually includes a half eaten sandwich, 1000 eftpos receipts, foreign coins, 1/2 tonne of assorted cosmetics containers (mostly empty), brushes, scarves, a hair dryer, 14 sets of house keys for houses we don't or no longer live in, a DVD she must return and 2 library books as well (this is the minimum)...

The 'thunk' as the gun and a case of ammo hits the checkout would be a classic... 'Here hold this please'...

Plus image the women like Paris Hilton with dogs that live in handbags? Little Fidos paw gets caught in the trigger and kablooie.... actually thats not a bad idea...

[ghost]

It's the semi auto handgun within easy reach of someone having one of those moments that scares me... Plus the thought of Vicki wandering about with a pearl handled .45 in her handbag scares the crap out of me. I can see her at the checkout looking for her eftpos card and tipping the contents of the bag out to look for it (bag usually includes a half eaten sandwich, 1000 eftpos receipts, foreign coins, 1/2 tonne of assorted cosmetics containers (mostly empty), brushes, scarves, a hair dryer, 14 sets of house keys for houses we don't or no longer live in, a DVD she must return and 2 library books as well (this is the minimum)...

The 'thunk' as the gun and a case of ammo hits the checkout would be a classic... 'Here hold this please'...

Plus image the women like Paris Hilton with dogs that live in handbags? Little Fidos paw gets caught in the trigger and kablooie.... actually thats not a bad idea...

Properly approved people with the qualifications to hold the appropriate licence. Very simple, your Vickie NOT would be allowed one. Me on the other hand can have one, or two.............and if I one day did have one of those moments, trust me there better things to use than handguns......

[ManDownUnder]

I agree - it's definately a people or cultural thing but god forbid we ever become like the swiss (you think traffic infringments are heavily policed here??).....

Agreed - they are heavily Policed.

It's the semi auto handgun within easy reach of someone having one of those moments that scares me... Plus the thought of Vicki wandering about with a pearl handled .45 in her handbag scares the crap out of me.

LOL I'll respectfully address the salient points, and leave my Vicki abuse for a forum she can respond in.

That is EXACTLY the reason people need to go shooting. People do not know what a firearm can do until they have used one. That stunning percussion of a 12 Gauge going off in your hands leaves little to the imagination.

Poeple need to be taken hunting, shooting. They need to be there when something dies so they experience first hand the grisley reality of it. It's not a glorious thing, and anyone that seriously thinks it is well... I refer to Fish's commentary on those going power crazy and not being suitable for a car licence.

I know for me personally there are two types of people... those I am comfortable shooting with - and those I am not. There's not a lot of grey area in there. "Opps - fuck sorry... that was a bit close" tends to put people in the latter camp.

People that have been there, that understand the real implications of pulling the trigger, are fine with me. Military types tend to know this stuff. Farming/rural types tend to know this stuff.

On the other hand there are the kids that grew up playing video games, or that see gangster shootouts as something cool.... Bang... dead... ok game over try again.

No, bang, dead... end of story. People need to know and respect that

[Motu]

Its not the Guns its the society.

Zigactly - fucked if I want to be in a Mall with a gunman blazing away....and then have some fucking nerd IT worker trying to save me with a Glock he pulls out of his laptop case! The Yanks kill more people with ''friendly fire'' than the targets they aim at....a citizen who thinks he's going to ''protect himself'' is someone I don't want to be anywhere near.They are gun crazy,just lock the borders and leave them alone.And as for the oh so experianced gun men on this site - don't come anywherefuckingnear me!

[Sniper]

And as for the oh so experianced gun men on this site - don't come anywherefuckingnear me!

We aint that bad, hell, MDU and Smokin didnt shoot me. Not even a close call

[Swoop]

Words.

Damn well said MDU!
Bling on its way.

[Dilligaf]

So I am the only one who thought it ironic that the person who posted this was ta da SNIPER.... hmmm :/

[Hitcher]

With respect Hitch - short sighted, and off target comeback.

No need to bother with the "with respect" bit. I wasn't disputing the fact that it's people who kill people. My point (badly made I concede) is that guns make this task a shit load easier. But I don't believe that the means of execution should be discounted by glib cliche or other form of sloganeering. This is not a simplistic matter.

I don't think that people should be able/allowed to wander around (I was going to say aimlessly) armed to the fucking teeth with devices whose sole purpose is to kill. I find this offensive.