Illegal occupation rewarded

[Grahameeboy]

I have read and spoken to Maori about the land rights issue and my "take them back to..." was just making a wee point to put things in perspective.

Throught out history land has been fought over, won and lost and won back again so much so that the way land has changed on a map makes a mosaic loo like grid lines on 'Excel'.

As has been said before, there are plenty of other land cases in the world which could be argued and people were also treated badly.

I do know that during the war, the Govt did take land off Maori in the name of "the war effort" and has never given it back and I agree that this land should be returned and /or compensation given.

As for 1863....well most 'invaders' did not even look at a treaty and just took the land and in many cases would have killed those before them.......the American Indians being one example...........

Now some Maori chiefs signed the Treaty and some did not. The Maori's from what I have been told did get rifles which they used to kill their enemy so I guess it is what they expected to get out of the treaty, not necessarily what they decided later was actually a bad move because the original benefits became useless.

I just feel that things get taken out of proportion. There is evidence that the Maori were not the first people here. If they did kill those who were before them then they cannot really complain about their lot.........its the way of the world.

I guess being an immigrant it seems to be more about money than spiritual compensation in many cases and this is where for me they lose their credability.

This is a wonderful country, small population so a lot of good has evolved. None of us were present in 1863 so we should just look to the future and not allow the past, which is the past, to dictate the future.....it is part of NZ 's history yes and what we do now will become history and shape things to come.............

I love you too Mom

[Mr Merde]

Sorry to disappoint, but that abstract entity known as the Crown has underlying radical title to all NZ land.




Sounds dangerously close to a tikanga Maori approach to me...

I can't be arsed with the rest of your offensive generalisations and intellectually weak oversimplifications. I'll let them speak for themselves...

Till the Crown ceases to be. Italy belonged to the Roman Empire til it colapsed.


As to the second part I think you will find that a lot of old races believe the same thing. My ancestry, the Celts were a roaming people similar to the gypsy's of today. The North American Indian, the Viking, the Greek, the Mesopotainians all had a belief in the land.

It isnt a just a Maori belief though todays wasters would have us belive it so.

Most of these shit stirrers are living proof of the saying that

"the best part of them ran down the crack in their mothers arse and finished up as a stain on the sheet"

Mr

[The_Dover]

I can't be arsed with the rest of your offensive generalisations and intellectually weak oversimplifications. I'll let them speak for themselves...

have you run out of weed hippy? you sound a little confrontational tonight.

[terbang]

I'm still trying to get a chunk of Aberdeen...

[Phurrball]

Hey Phurball - don't forget to differentiate between "The Crown" as a legal entity (statutes) and a political entity (Geo-Political entity - the British Empire fell over in 1947). One of them doesn't essentially exist any more.

One needs to get a good grip on that concept.

Yep, talking of the former legal fiction - but you make an interesting point re semantics and the potential non-existence-in-fact of one of the parties to the Treaty.

(A bit like the difference between Government and government that I should remember from public law but don't)

[Disco Dan]

What a load of bollox.

How dare they vandalise schools and intimidate people! Who do they think they are! Maori? I thought they died out years ago. Only thing left of them now is half casts and the odd inbred.

Take them to the cleaners I say. Bloody freeloaders. Always out to better themselves by stealing and bitching.

[Phurrball]

(snip) There is evidence that the Maori were not the first people here. If they did kill those who were before them then they cannot really complain about their lot.........its the way of the world.

really? Please enlighten me on that one?

None of us were present in 1863 so we should just look to the future and not allow the past, which is the past, to dictate the future.....it is part of NZ 's history yes and what we do now will become history and shape things to come.............

Fair point, and I see where you're coming from, but -

the crown signed the treaty, the crown breached the treaty, and the crown is still extant today as a legal fiction allowing government of NZ - the crown breached the treaty with a number of acts of bad faith, so the crown needs to make ammends.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we're doomed to repeat them. If you say you're making a legally binding treaty with a sovereign people as the ToW was made between Maori and the British crown, you can't change that fact as it suits you and breach the agreement wantonly.

(Do I get $1 for each use of 'crown'??)

[Maha]

Heard a story a easter....Maori family were talking at the gathering in which i was at...seems a great Aunty from the east cape has left them some land. How to divy it up was in question but the funniest part about i was, years ago (30 odd) great uncle sold some of his land for a Car!...dumbfuck? yes...fair deal?...No, but the deal was done, both parties were happy. The said family agree that he was ripped off....they feel it is worth at least 5 Cars now...no joke, they are serious.

[Phurrball]

As to the second part I think you will find that a lot of old races believe the same thing. My ancestry, the Celts were a roaming people similar to the gypsy's of today. The North American Indian, the Viking, the Greek, the Mesopotainians all had a belief in the land.

Yep, true that.

It isnt a just a Maori belief though todays wasters would have us belive it so.
Mr

I enver said it was so.

As for the rest - play nice. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything, or you'll be sent to the naughty step!!!

That's me, off home now, back tomorrow. Play nice without me. The Hippy's going back to the westie greenery...

[Grahameeboy]

really? Please enlighten me on that one?

The Moreori's.....

Fair point, and I see where you're coming from, but -

the crown signed the treaty, the crown breached the treaty, and the crown is still extant today as a legal fiction allowing government of NZ - the crown breached the treaty with a number of acts of bad faith, so the crown needs to make ammends.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we're doomed to repeat them. If you say you're making a legally binding treaty with a sovereign people as the ToW was made between Maori and the British crown, you can't change that fact as it suits you and breach the agreement wantonly.

Was it really a mistake. We are talking about 1863 when the world was different so this mistake is unlikely to repeat itself.

I think what happened was that the CROWN did sign in good faith, however, every other tom dick and harry got on the NZ band wagon and it got a bit out of hand...plus some land rights are being honoured.

(Do I get $1 for each use of 'crown'??)

Sorry cannot count that high

............................

[Grahameeboy]

Heard a story a easter....Maori family were talking at the gathering in which i was at...seems a great Aunty from the east cape has left them some land. How to divy it up was in question but the funniest part about i was, years ago (30 odd) great uncle sold some of his land for a Car!...dumbfuck? yes...fair deal?...No, but the deal was done, both parties were happy. The said family agree that he was ripped off....they feel it is worth at least 5 Cars now...no joke, they are serious.

Holdens or Toyota's??

But seriously, your last comment highlights my simple take on the Treaty..

[Maha]

Holdens or Toyota's??

But seriously, your last comment highlights my simple take on the Treaty..

Oh sure, Mum and Dad sold a house in the early 80's...its worth a shit load more now...maybe they should go back and collect the difference...

[Colapop]

I am a racist. I have an opinion on this issue that relates to Maori, therefore I must be a racist. How on earth can I, as a non Maori, ever presume to know what the Maori have gone through?

That said, I shall offer up my standard view on these sorts of matters...

I am a New Zealander. I was born here. My forefathers emigrated here from foreign lands. I am not an indeginous person ergo I have no special rights. I cannot vote on a special electoral role. I cannot play for a special ethnically based NZ team.

If I were a Maori I could play for that team and vote on that role and be eligible for special privileges because of my racial heritage. Even though my forefathers emigrated here - from Hawaiki... have the great canoes been forgotten?

To have this view I must be racist so I won't say those sorts of inflammatory things...

One country - One people - ALL cultures respected.

[BAD DAD]

It's speed fours, man. They bring it out of you. Something about riding a bike that looks like a battering ram from the front.

Dave

When you open a can of worms ( like this thread ) you can't be too suprised if a few of them manage to crawl out eh?

[Ixion]

To England I said. The Queen has no title to it. She is a kraut. Decendant from William of Orange.

Prior to WW1 the family name was Von Battenburg. They changed it to Windsor to make themselves more in tune with the English during the first war.


Mr

Which William of Orange? She can't be a descendant of that WoO who became de facto King William III of England Scotland France and Ireland. Because he and Queen Mary II had no children

Rightfully speaking, Elizabeth Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (her rightful name) is not queen (or Duke) of anything. She is a usurper, as have been all her family. The right and lawful King of England Scotland France and Ireland, Duke of Normandy, is Francis II , whom God preserve. I just like to get these things right.And of course, I am a Jacobite.

The name Windsor was adopted by King George V, whose family name was Wettin, not Battenburg. They (the Battenburgs, or Mountbattens, same thing) came later.