Traction feedback device?

**cowpoos** · 27th April 2009, 20:10

Originally Posted by bogan

it does not know how much traction is currently available,

Right...you do have a fraction of a brain after all...telling me I didn't know what I was talking about...and you admit it won't have a clue yourself....what a fucking know all arsehole!!

Originally Posted by bogan

but it does know how much is available in an ideal situation.

No it can't...and it won't!! if you could predict this...you would be one of the richest people in the world of motorsports...

Its a shame you don't understand the physics involved in Motorcycle dynamics...COCK!!

**cowpoos** · 27th April 2009, 20:17

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

You underestimate modern electronics, digital signal processing, and software / mathematics. It is very easy to attach multiple high-definition sensors to any process whatsoever, and then spend a year writing code and applying physics and mathematics to it, and be able to pull out factoids you didn't even know where there. Take it a step further, and do detailed data logging and upload it to an Artificial neural network and watch the arcane imaginary become the truth.

Steve

currently...there is high level data logging on motorcycles/cars,etc...they do produce alot of incredible data...but a human still decides how to use it to make chassis and suspension changes [and wing changes in car racing]...
No computer program yet can setup a bike or car anywhere near aswell as a human with good data!!

**bogan** · 27th April 2009, 20:32

Originally Posted by cowpoos

Right...you do have a fraction of a brain after all...telling me I didn't know what I was talking about...and you admit it won't have a clue yourself....what a fucking know all arsehole!!

No it can't...and it won't!! if you could predict this...you would be one of the richest people in the world of motorsports...

Its a shame you don't understand the physics involved in Motorcycle dynamics...COCK!!

before you start throwing insults around willy nilly, actually read the thread with the intention of understanding it, rather than with the intention of picking holes and trying too make yourself sound smart. I realise im not the best at explaining tech details but all the info is there if you try to understand it, quite a few others have got the idea of it.

**Squiggles** · 27th April 2009, 21:55

I have to ask, do you think it is really going to be able to help people? New people in particular, when & where would it be used?

**mujambee** · 28th April 2009, 01:28

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

No. ABS and TCS are designed to watch when a wheel has skidded (past tense) and take action to unlock it, or otherwise stabilise the vehicle. A black box such as in question, can go further than that and predict just how close on the curve we came to a disaster.

You underestimate modern electronics, digital signal processing, and software / mathematics...

Traction does not go away suddenly. It takes time (as short as a fraction of a second, but time anyway). Say you are braking hard on your front wheel. Both wheels are spining at the same speed, but at a certain point, when you are about to loose it, the front wheel starts spinning slower than the rear. At that point the ABS will release some pressure on the brakes and the wheel will (hopefully) start spinning again. But the system won't wait for the wheel to stop, that may be too late.

Even if the wheel looses all traction instantly (say you enter an ice pool), it has some inertia so it needs time to stop. And you know the time a microprocessor needs to read two signals, compare them and activate an output.

**mujambee** · 28th April 2009, 01:51

To bogan:

Please read carefully what I'm going to write, and believe that this is in good faith and with a true intention of helping you.

You had an idea, did some preliminary testing and came here asking if people would buy your device.

At the moment of this writing, 25 out of 46 voters answered NO. You say your next step is going to cost you some money, so you need to be sure before you take it. Only 12 of those 46 voters would buy it, and most people is far more enthusiast about a new thingie when they read about it on the Internet than when it comes to paying for it.

And many people has told you that they don't believe you could achieve your goal.

If I where you, I would give up this and start a new project. Your money is not making you rich, and probably won't even pay back.

**Hoon** · 28th April 2009, 06:56

I disagree. The idea definately has potential. A lot of people can't understand how it would work and have based their descision on that which has skewed the results of the vote. Also some seem to have taken offence that an unknown PhD student could dare proclaim he knows more about the subject than regular forum members and now these members would like nothing more than to see him fail.

Yes your sales pitch needs a lot of work but aside from that your idea has potential. Sure I can see a few issues but nothing that couldn't be resolved with some effort. If people were to give up that easily without even trying we'd still be living in caves.

**CookMySock** · 28th April 2009, 07:33

Reminder: KB is an arsehole filter. Whatever you say is going to irritate some arsehole somewhere, and then said arsehole is going to bash you for it.

Checklist:

Is a public bulletin board, situation is normal - proceed

Check self - not actually getting bashed. all good!

Apply neg rep as required

Report abuse to moderators - not your problem

Add arsehole to ignore list

Continue enjoying thread - as you were.

Steve

**Squiggles** · 28th April 2009, 08:15

Originally Posted by bogan

yeh i hear what you are saying, but there are many riders (mostly begininers) whos feel of how much harder they can push the bike is wrong, either going to hard (and falling off) or not realising they can go a bit harder (and freezing up and drifting off line or hitting obstacle etc). A little gizmo that informs the rider (after you go round a corner) of how much grip he was actually using imo would be very useful, also datalogging will be very easy to add in for those who want it.

While there are some places that might be useful, but is currently banned? (datalogging at the track?). Im not sure as to the ideas potential in real time, If a newbie is hitting the brakes hard to avoid t-boning a car, the last place he needs to be looking is at a series of flashing lights on the dash telling him to brake harder. After the event sure, he can tell if he didnt go hard enough, but during?

**duckonin** · 28th April 2009, 08:24

Eyes are for the road not to look at or be distracted by Gizzzzzzmo's....Half the problem on the road now is distraction...Imagine going a mite hot into a corner watching a green or red light haha no time left we all know how quick shit happens...

Lands and Survey bought Toyotas years back with a roll a meter, the shepherds used to watch the lean or bank angle and wondered why they had to walk home

...Just my thoughts

**bogan** · 28th April 2009, 09:49

to those saying it wont work cos you shouldnt look at it during a corning or braking, i ahve already stated that it will store the max value of traction used, and show this for a time after the corner, or braking event, also hoon has come up with the idee of using a beeper for real time monitoring.

At the moment of this writing, 25 out of 46 voters answered NO. You say your next step is going to cost you some money, so you need to be sure before you take it. Only 12 of those 46 voters would buy it, and most people is far more enthusiast about a new thingie when they read about it on the Internet than when it comes to paying for it.

12/46 is about 25%, 25% of riders is quite a lot, even 10% of riders would be enough, also i beleive after people use this thing they will realise how usefull it could be and so will thier mates!

And many people has told you that they don't believe you could achieve your goal.

yeh they have, but so far the only reason i have been given, is you cant make that, motorbikes are real complicated.

Yes your sales pitch needs a lot of work but aside from that your idea has potential. Sure I can see a few issues but nothing that couldn't be resolved with some effort. If people were to give up that easily without even trying we'd still be living in caves.

yeh, i know im not good at explaining things like this, will be way easier to do a proper sales pitch once i actually make it though.

**LBD** · 28th April 2009, 10:00

Originally Posted by Hoon

I disagree. The idea definately has potential. A lot of people can't understand how it would work and have based their descision on that which has skewed the results of the vote. Also some seem to have taken offence that an unknown PhD student could dare proclaim he knows more about the subject than regular forum members and now these members would like nothing more than to see him fail.
.

First half) you are right, and I have said it before the concept may have potential, but by failing to explain how the results are generated he has raised a lot of questions including from my self. The questions are not to knock but to provide him with feed back to hopefully minimise the chances of an expensive cock up or as some have done, come up with some good ideas. Only a fool will ignore a potentially good invention through a lack of knowledge of the facts.

Second half) I am by far a much more intellegent, knowedgelable experienced in the fields of all sciences and mechanics and quantum physics/mathmatics and medicine and literature and philosophy than everyone else at kb who are just a bunch of imbiciles and, just like Bogun, I am not going to substantiate this claim, you just have to beleive me. Meanwhile I have just found a full proof skin cancer prevention and am about to embarke on a mission to extinguish the Sun...Future generations with thank me and lawd me as a heroic pioneer....Any one care to advise me of my error in judgment...?

For heavens sake Bogun do something about your delivery style and stop turning people against you....just ignore those coments you don't want, dont turn around and arogantly insult people. You will get much further in life working with people and you will get much further in your work if you have people who will work with you....

Thats my Rant for the week....

**CookMySock** · 28th April 2009, 10:09

Originally Posted by Squiggles

If a newbie is hitting the brakes hard to avoid t-boning a car, the last place he needs to be looking is at a series of flashing lights on the dash telling him to brake harder. After the event sure, he can tell if he didnt go hard enough, but during?

I agree all riders should be concentrating on steering and/or braking during a "situation."

There should be no warning lights and bells until everything is cool some seconds later, at which point the unit should be giving the rider either a sweet smile or an angry glare - they can do the maths on those and figure out which means which.

Even a wee tyre squiggle or tiny slippy-slide in the wet could be categorized in the same way. Either "you can quite likely ignore things like that" or "DONT do that again, son." Just keep riding on the green light and let the software grow with the riders' ability.

It could be a great learner device IMO. It would need to grow with the rider, or have profiles for different bikes and riders, as different combinations would "feel" completely different to the software.

It will be the ongoing software development that lets it down, which is why I initially suggested a GPL license.

Steve

**bogan** · 28th April 2009, 15:35

Originally Posted by LBD

For heavens sake Bogun do something about your delivery style and stop turning people against you....just ignore those coments you don't want, dont turn around and arogantly insult people. You will get much further in life working with people and you will get much further in your work if you have people who will work with you....

I apologise if i have insulted anyone, it was not my intention. Though coming from the academic community i tend to expect an explanation when someone tells me im wrong

**CookMySock** · 28th April 2009, 21:21

Originally Posted by bogan

I apologise if i have insulted anyone, it was not my intention. Though coming from the academic community i tend to expect an explanation when someone tells me im wrong

Forget all that crap or it will eat you up inside.

Go build the fucker.

Steve