To Robert Taylor and other MNZ bashers

[suzuki mama]

if you look up the sports tribunal result on this, they rejected it on a techincality, (he filed the appeal to late)

Scott if the only reason for rejecting it was paper work was late then under natural justice the member would be strongly advised to contact the office of the ombudsman and get a good lawyer to look at this, Because at the end of the day and i realise you have a vested interest in this justice in its entirety has not been served, the member may due to ill advisement to mnz be able to show a sustained period of harassment and ill feeling towards him which has resulted in other clubmembers 2 years ago losing their proxy votes, he could then also show that mnz accepted the status quo and allowed his club to function outside the regulations for a considerable period of time. if he was then able to show that the recent action resulted after back door attempts by the President to influence voting in the club elections without officially enforming the club in writing prior to the elections then a very interesting scenario could enfold.
Personally for the good of the sport i think the tme has come to draw a line in the sand on this one call it quits by both parties and move on .however i doubt mnz has the sense currently to do this

[scott411]

the member did not like the decision of MNZ, under there rules he had time to appeal to the sports tribunal, he did not do it in time, but i feel we could argue this for a while, and still not agree on much, more lawyers are not going to make it better in my opinion

your right, it is time this to be done with, both sides need to stop attacking each other, but both feel agrieved by each other, i do not see either side waving white flags at the moment, do you?

[slowpoke]

I can't help wondering why RT has been singled out personally.

He is under no obligation to MNZ, has a right to express an opinion and has stated that opinion a hell of a lot more politely than virtually anybody else on here. What's more his arguments are substantiated with the reasoning behind them. I have no problem with counter arguments or discussion of his reasoning but to attack a person for voicing an opinion doesn't sit well with me. To mangle an overused phrase: you may disagree with someones opinons but you should support their right to say it.

No one is arguing that Paul Pav doesn't love the sport, or doesn't have it's best interest at heart, or isn't putting in a huge effort....but, there seem to be a substantial number of road racing MNZ members who are extremely concerned/frustrated/disappointed/angry with MNZ's response to the various problems afflicting our branch of the sport.

This is undeniable and RT is simply one of many.

[popelli]

I have know Robert Taylor since the early eighties

As far as I am concerned he is a top guy who exhibits more common sense than most people and both Mark Pav and the personal attack on Robert should be removed from this site

[GSVR]

Well if nothing else the respective threads were started by very concerned people and despite all the bitching its certainly raised peoples awareness big time. Thats a good thing. I knew Paul Pavletich would be aware of the threads ( as do others ) and he has had people defending him. He probably chooses not to engage in forums and I can well understand such reasoning. I spoke to him today ( as I have done so on many occassions in the past ) and quite openly.
Anyway, if people want to fit ABS and traction control, if they want to run aftermarket shocks, if they want to run oem shocks let them go for it. In the end event its deciding about what is a bridge too far.
Do you still have that GSXR shock that you ran in your SV at some stage?
If so, AND THIS IS A GENUINE OFFER, consider sending it to me, completely free of charge I will modify the shim stacks so that it will work better in that bike. If it can be better again then we will incrementally go further. I would like you to see what is possible at reasonable projected cost and then unbiasedly report on it.......................?????

"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far. One thing that concerns me with classes that are presumably being introduced to attract new riders is they are too close to the class that already exists that instead of new riders coming into the sport (or moving up from a lower class) all that happens is established riders from the existing or a higher class come into the new class and dominate it thus defeating the purpose.

Only allowing standard suspension and other limitations would make the class unappealing to quick riders in the existing class but slower riders will find it harder to reach the limits of these machines and at that time it may be time to move on up to the more open class.

At the nationals we have world class riders competeing. Is it realistic to expect amature riders to spend at the same level and ride almost as fast. Would the sport be better served by having more classes catering for riders that just want to enjoy the sport and progress to a higher more technical class if they feel they have outgrown a low spec bike and have the talent.

As for good suspension I am under no illussion of how much better a standard SV can be made to perform having ridden a top bike on several occassions. I'm also aware that a standard SV is quite capable of being riden hard with a few cheap but effective mods. The SV class years ago confirms this. Some of the arguements re Tyrewear Safety etc just don't stack up.


Thanks for the offer but if I was to upgrade my suspension I would most likely fit an Ohlins unit. I'm perfectly happy running a standard OEM shock for the road and occassional trackday.

If you want to do something for me Robert you could try answering direct simple questions with a direct concise answer and also refrain from abusive namecalling and innuendo. You are well aware of the direct questions you avoided becuase they didn't fit in with the way you wanted to take the threads involved. We will never agree on this matter.

The actually reasons why people choose not to ride at the nationals may have little to do with the bike rules. Maybe its more to do with the perception the nationals are for elite riders that only club race to prepare their bikes for such an event. Maybe the nationals should be made to be percieved as a celebration of motorcycling, a festival for anyone that loves to race and spectate but still have the main focus on the quest for champions.

And just for evryone here that thinks I have some vendetta against Robert I don't. I have no animosity towards him and we will no doubt have a talk next time I see him at the track but he's always so dam busy.

BTW. How often do the 600 nationals riders revalve their shocks? Is it for every track? Does everyone revalve for Teretonga then change back for Ruapuna? I'm genuinely interested so I can pass on this information when questioned about it..

[Scouse]

Sorry off subject.....BUT!!

I can't believe what you have just offered!! especially the way this member has acted toward you of late...infact I'm speechless!

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

[suzuki mama]

Scott,
every one is aware of your close connection to the Ceo and i for one will openly state how pleased i am you have such a good relationship .

I have no doubt that on a personal level The Ceo has great skills however its on the Professional level there are problems.

To me a Ceo must be able to work with people on all levels, just because he either doesnt like them or disagrees with their opinions does not entitle him to belittle ignore or threaten them.

It is his job to actively encourage greater participation in our sport ,foster a Business relationship with importers and distributors in fact all in our sport and to be impartial when dealing with contractors ,bike magazines ,clubs etc

There are to many incidences where this hasnt happened . no one is saying get rid of him ,that would not be the attitude of a responsible employer ,what many are saying is ,what is the Board doing to improve the manner in which the Ceo deals on this level, What suggestions has the Board made to enable him to mend fences,what help have they given him to get the office back working within our constitution.?

To often the Ceo has made personal remarks im sure like Noel Curr and his e-mail to some one he felt was not going to forward it on .and this is not a dig at you scott, im first to say what noel did was wrong ,however what happened next was unacceptible to me

Noel Told one person ,if it had been me and hindsight always makes us rightous, i would have gone straight back and said sorry noel unacceptible,
if i hear of you saying this to anyone else i will go to the board.

What happened was that half of motorcycling got to see or hear about the email and the story grew like chinese whispers,and 40 000 dollars later is still haunting the sport.

My point is ,there are better ways of dealing with people, you cannot expect the membership to give support to a person who on one hand says Noel Curr should not have said this and on the other makes statements about who he can or cant work with.

The Ceo must be able to work with everyone,

[Tony.OK]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

What a fuckn stupid thing to say..............................anyone that knows Robert knows that he is all about his work, so much so that he is willing to do things like this to try and get his point across at no cost.
Ever been to a meeting and seen how frantic he is? His major failing is that he wants everyone to have the best setup, chance of doing better, with whatever equipment they have......mostly for free.........and simply not having enough time for everyone.........how many could you say that about?

FFS..............

[sidecar bob]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Get real, Some of us are simply passionate about our work & want others to undertsand what a difference we can make with our input.
Clearly you have no concept of goodwill, generosity or passion for a paticular topic.
I play the same game with BMW cars, because i am fully confident of what i am doing.

[Robert Taylor]

"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far. One thing that concerns me with classes that are presumably being introduced to attract new riders is they are too close to the class that already exists that instead of new riders coming into the sport (or moving up from a lower class) all that happens is established riders from the existing or a higher class come into the new class and dominate it thus defeating the purpose.

Only allowing standard suspension and other limitations would make the class unappealing to quick riders in the existing class but slower riders will find it harder to reach the limits of these machines and at that time it may be time to move on up to the more open class.

At the nationals we have world class riders competeing. Is it realistic to expect amature riders to spend at the same level and ride almost as fast. Would the sport be better served by having more classes catering for riders that just want to enjoy the sport and progress to a higher more technical class if they feel they have outgrown a low spec bike and have the talent.

As for good suspension I am under no illussion of how much better a standard SV can be made to perform having ridden a top bike on several occassions. I'm also aware that a standard SV is quite capable of being riden hard with a few cheap but effective mods. The SV class years ago confirms this. Some of the arguements re Tyrewear Safety etc just don't stack up.


Thanks for the offer but if I was to upgrade my suspension I would most likely fit an Ohlins unit. I'm perfectly happy running a standard OEM shock for the road and occassional trackday.

If you want to do something for me Robert you could try answering direct simple questions with a direct concise answer and also refrain from abusive namecalling and innuendo. You are well aware of the direct questions you avoided becuase they didn't fit in with the way you wanted to take the threads involved. We will never agree on this matter.

The actually reasons why people choose not to ride at the nationals may have little to do with the bike rules. Maybe its more to do with the perception the nationals are for elite riders that only club race to prepare their bikes for such an event. Maybe the nationals should be made to be percieved as a celebration of motorcycling, a festival for anyone that loves to race and spectate but still have the main focus on the quest for champions.

And just for evryone here that thinks I have some vendetta against Robert I don't. I have no animosity towards him and we will no doubt have a talk next time I see him at the track but he's always so dam busy.

BTW. How often do the 600 nationals riders revalve their shocks? Is it for every track? Does everyone revalve for Teretonga then change back for Ruapuna? I'm genuinely interested so I can pass on this information when questioned about it..

Cheers, this will require a similarly lengthy reply and I will do so tonight.

[Robert Taylor]

Gary, thanks for your response. This will require a similarly lengthy, detailed reply. Will do so tonight.

[Robert Taylor]

I can its called "buying silence" or "bribery" quite cynical of RT actually

Totally incorrect. If he took up my offer and it didnt work so well then everyone on this forum would know. Commercial risk that I am prepared to go through, simple.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=GSVR;1129190249]"You can check out any time you like but you can never leave"

You talk of a bridge too far, etc...........

Reply as promised earlier....

Yes I can relate to your first paragraph. I can recall there are certain racing formula overseas that within certain classes you have to be new to it and are only able to compete within that class for a set period before moving on. That obviously works well overseas but as always in NZ we always have the issue of a small population. I think its also relevant to say that if there are too many classes then it just dilutes other fields, several people have eluded to that.

Standard suspension you will get away with with the lower powered bikes ( e.g if there was still a 250cc production class.) But when you get the higher powered bikes 600cc and upwards the tyre degradation and chassis pitch control issues magnify somewhat. My reasons are as you know within the copy of a submission to MNZ that I posted on this site.
SV650s are another case in point, the link ratio is ''commuter comfort friendly'' and even when we supply a more standard ( non TTX ) type Ohlins shock for these we have to make some dramatic changes to give the ride height control required and save the tyres. Candidly, this took quite a while to work out. But the benefits and speed over oem are obvious.

I have no problem with a second tier 600 class. Perhaps a better term to use would have been ''a line in the sand'' rather than ''a bridge too far''. Again my reasons for allowing revalving of the oem shocks has been amply stated in that same submission and I note that you yourself saw at least some sense in it. Note my elaboration about this further on in this post.

I resolutely stand by my tyre wear arguments with respect to the higher powered bikes, especially. Respectfully, we see an enormous amount of suspension units per annum that we revalve to give both better control and to solve repeat rapid tyre wear / stress problems. More and more are coming from everyday track day riders .

That SV class a few years back was in its infancy, as it developed more and more with people becoming more competitive I believe we would have seen more crashing. At minimum I believe they should have allowed emulators and springs in the front end, if only to save ongoing crash repair bills as the front ends would have felt more secure. I guess you can counter that by saying theyd then crash at higher speeds! But heck, we fit emulators to a lot of SVs that only get used on the road, beacuse the riders are dissatisfied with their lack of secure feel.

The shock revalve offer was totally sincere and genuine with no agenda other than for yourself to experience what is possible with a standard GSXR shock and no limitation on you reporting it exactly as it was, good or bad. As an aside its not so easy to upgrade the standard SV650 single tube stock shock as it doesnt have a reservoir and a base compression valve to assist in maintaining suitable internal pressure balance. Possible but a bit of a can of worms.

Actually I genuinely dont recall those questions without laboriously dredging back through god only knows how many posts. Frankly, I get so many questions via many ways of delivering them that it often gets to brain overload on a daily basis. Perhaps as has been suggested by a racing friend I am too free with information. Questions are good as long as they are not ''loaded'' or as I brutally eluded to you are there to serve a twisted interpretation. Straight questions, straight answers. I had a number of PMs, one questioning how I have so much patience and another wondering why it took me so long to lose my rag. But hey Im not bitter and twisted about it and Im answering all your questions in good spirit.

I think many people are intimidated about doing the Nationals and I hear what you are saying. Arguably its a hell of a cost to travel from one end of the country to the other and factor in all the accomodation, meals etc etc. And maybe there are many competitors who would rather be on holiday during January. I know I would rather be doing just that! Myriad reasons and they cannot all be blamed on class rules. I also think Bears should be included in Nationals.

Apologies for being so busy!!

Thats a good question re 600 revalves. Most of the top riders do so and part of that is because we are there, because we are willing to do so and top riders are always seeking a further edge. I can recall Shaun harris and I doing a lot of suspension dyno work on his CBR600 a few years back, we both learnt a lot about damping curves required for road race and tyre performance preservation. This accumulation of knowledge and new ideas never stops.That is the nature of the beast and I am proud of having played in part in lifting the game, consistent with what has happened in other worldwide markets. With the exception that it has been 'New Zealandised i.e much more of the backup is done out of sheer goodwill. Also proud of that but we also have to at least cover costs! Arguably then many of the distributor teams ( who we have contracts with ) effectively subsidise the ''privateer ''riders as we always find at least some time to help people who request same. It is never ever regarded as a cash cow on the day, if we sell something then thats great! Nothing wrong in that.
Teretonga is a track that requires reasonably aggressive valving and heavier springing to keep the rear end up in its stroke and away from the ''accelerative part'' of the link ratio during the considerable time the bikes spend at high speed banked over in the sweeper. This sweeper goes on for longer than the Parabolica at Monza. The surface is similiar to Taupo and similarly cold so compound choices and tyre pressures are also critical. Up the road Timaru throws up its own challenges with a more amenable surface with many flat turns and the bikes are always on their sides. Softer springing with more preload and often less aggressive valving. Ruapuna is different again and there is a lot of emphasis on getting the front end right as theres heavy braking going on. Manfield is similiar in many ways to Ruapuna but when we get to Pukekohe throw all the settings out of the window. Nasty bumps and elevation change over the hill, general reduction in spring rate and valving and lots of emphasis on getting rebound control within the right window.
Factor in also that we are always playing with geometry, fork position in clamps and rear ride height length. Frankly, the aftermarket rear shocks allow such changes infinitely more quickly than oem. Invariably we always have new stuff to test from the factory and this year we tested new front end stuff in Sam Smiths bike at Pukekohe. That was the reason for his top form there and not the deliberate red herring of our ''electronic'' rear shock. The reactions were interesting.
The TTX stuff we now predominantly work with makes life easy in that we can do a trackside revalve very quickly as they are designed to be that way, spring changes are also dead easy. As it is also with the FGK cartridges.
Candidly we are rather less excited about revalving oem shocks trackside as they are not exactly designed to be serviced so quickly and unlike TTX we do not have a large inventory of springs for such shocks, which are also rather less uniform. Even with just the spring issue I think those who have proposed the rule change have not considered the further logistics required.
People with our product and backup have had service a lot more cheaply than would be the case in first world European / North American countries. For one they would be expected to carry their own spring alternative rates for varying tracks. How many competitors in this country have stiffer springs for ''one off'' tracks such as Teretonga and softer ''wet'' springs etc? How many have the specific tools to effect the changes? And that also includes oem....

As I have stated I am personally not averse to cost controlled classes as long as the line in the sand is not placed in a poorly determined position, devoid of due diligence in listening to experienced experts who have worked at the coalface confronting the issues

. It will be possible to have a decent valving spec for oem that allied with spring changes will cover most eventualities. But I for one am certainly not going to carry a huge spring inventory as I do with Ohlins to exchange trackside, competitors will have to purchase and carry their own, that is fair and reasonable.

With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

[GIXser]

What a fuckn stupid thing to say..............................anyone that knows Robert knows that he is all about his work, so much so that he is willing to do things like this to try and get his point across at no cost.
Ever been to a meeting and seen how frantic he is? His major failing is that he wants everyone to have the best setup, chance of doing better, with whatever equipment they have......mostly for free.........and simply not having enough time for everyone.........how many could you say that about?

FFS..............

100 % agree here......

[Shaun P]

Bla bla bla
With the benefit of considerable knowledge learnt from Ohlins, Race Tech and Traxxion Dynamics we are able to apply mods into oem shocks / forks at reasonable cost. Having a suspension dyno assists in determination of ideal base damping curves.

Level 1 Service, revalve, respring oem suspension

Level 2 Fit internal upspec components ( eg Race Tech ) into oem suspension

Level 3 Fit high quality aftermarket shock units / cartridges

That is the philosophy we have developed and I believe most volume suspension tuners would also operate on. Suspension solutions for all budgets.

I am happy to field more questions but let me catch my breath first!

Yep like this http://www.ptr.com.au/suspension_packages.htm