Lapped riders! WTF

[Racey Rider]

Another safety issue to be thought about, is that habit some of us have of trying to warm up tyres/brakes in the warm up lap by flying down the straights and then braking abruptly halfway down the straight.
Often the person behind you isn't paying attention (it's only warm up lap), and doesn't expect someone to brake hard at that point on the straights. I have seen some close calls, and have stopped that practice myself.

Racey

[Two Smoker]

Thanks. I should keep more of an eye on the MNZ site.

Not sure of the benefit of another 600 class if the rules are going to so close to what already exists.

Its to have a seperate champonship within the race. i.e one for privateers, and one for factory.

I agree with Jay and Glen. Both explained well!

Cheers, Chris

[neil_cb125t]

I have had both bad and good scenarios for lapping riders.

A} Bad, I have been clipped was ill being lapped while riding an RG150 in F3. went for the biggest skate of my life - from that they banned Street stock riders from F3.

B} Good, they can be used to put between you and the guy behind you or slow a person your chasing.

It is part of racing that everyone will end up doing one day ( sounds real bad but you want to get to the point were your up the front, and there will always be someone learning to race )

Manfield is very bad for it because of the straights that have key corners in between them so if you dont pass easily you can blow the sweeper or higgins slowing you down alot for the lap.

I believe that the Formula classes need to stay indpendant ie i shouldn't take my ZXR400 out in F3 and F2 - don't think the top 600 guys would like having to pass me anywhere let alone lap me. Same could be said about F2 and F1 - a learner on a 600 would have a huge speed diff to Mr Sheriffs on a CBr1000. If only we had enough 1000's

[scrivy]

Maybe what we do is dangerous afterall??!!

In my opinion, having a 115% or whatever cutoff rule wont reduce the risk to fast riders.

Lets say everyone qualifies at 100% of their ability.
Come a race, how many times are you let down by having an incorrect tyre pressure, a wrong tyre choice, a wrong suspension setting, an engine missing like hell, a fueling problem, or some other part that doesn't want to play ball during a race? I'm picking you will all say a few times? So what then? You certainly wont be within 115% of the fastest riders time! So yes you will be getting lapped - even if you were a front runner in qualifying.
Also, what happens when a top rider has to start from the dummy grid, or from the back row due to probs in qualifying? He then has to force his way through the field - again exposing himself to greater risks. This is also the case when a front runner spears off and has to regain the track and fight back.

One thing I've also learnt with my racing, is that even the top guys don't always take similar lines, and can cause crashes in a bunch.
Also, one thing that terrifies me, is that anyone can pay lots of money for a top machine - and be on the pace - but without having too much experience. They are more of a threat/danger to me than me passing a slower backmarker!! Ask Sidecar Bob how close we were to being taken out at the end of Pukies backstraight, at around the 250km mark!! Dramatically changing lines at the braking markers with someone about to do an inside pass on you is a tad more dangerous than passing a slower rider coming out of an 80km corner! (You tend to pack more into your undies!!)

I know I'll prob get flack over this, but having longer races just ads to the risks of lapping slower riders. If races were shorter, then there would be less chance of a rider being lapped. It might just be better for spectators to watch also, as currently, after 6 laps the pecking order has usually been achieved, and spectators have switched off due to a no dicing situation.
Bring back the sprint races!!

Would people prefer to do 3x6 lap sprint races, or 2x10 lap races?

Scrivy

[scrivy]

Another safety issue to be thought about, is that habit some of us have of trying to warm up tyres/brakes in the warm up lap by flying down the straights and then braking abruptly halfway down the straight.
Often the person behind you isn't paying attention (it's only warm up lap), and doesn't expect someone to brake hard at that point on the straights. I have seen some close calls, and have stopped that practice myself.

Racey

Again, this wouldnt be dangerous if the person doing so actually looked behind before completing the act!

Unfortunately it is not a requirement for riders to undergo an I.Q. test prior to getting their licence!!
I have seen a few people throw it away in the warm up lap (and the cool down lap), and from memory even Colin Edwards did on his Honda Superbike many years ago!

[slowpoke]

Sure, there have been some hairy passing manoeuver's while lapping riders, but that doesn't make them much different to many other passing manouever's.

As long as the 115% rule is adhered too I don't see too much of a problem.

From someone who is mid-pack and still getting up to speed I think some people lose sight of exactly how little is involved to be a few seconds off the pace. Take Taupo for example, you only have to be getting on the picks 0.2 of a second (the blink of an eye really) too early then picking up the throttle 0.2 of a second late on every corner, combined with the resulting slower speeds down the straight and you are 6 seconds off the fast fucker at the front. Throw in a not quite up to the minute bike, or running not ideal or used new tyres, or never ridden that particular track, and you could easily be 8-10seconds slower. That sounds like a lot but it only takes fractions of a second here and there.

It's tough getting up to speed, trying to find the dribs and drabs of time that slip through your fingers. But the last thing you need is some dis-incentive to not step up. Just look at this time last year, round 1 at Taupo:
Jimmy Dalton on pole in 1m 34 with the likes of Derek Macadam, Eddie, Rob Jackson, Tony O'keefe, Craig Frethey, Glen Skachill in midfield between 6.8 and 10seconds off the pace. These guys have all become or were National level riders, in some cases even winning National events so are no mugs.

I get a bit angry with myself for not making the improvements I'd like, or when I get lapped by Mr Shirriffs or Stroud, or Jones. But I have to keep telling myself, I'm not chasing the 10 seconds I am from the front runner, I'm chasing those blinks of an eye on corner entry and exit. And while I look up to Tony and Eddie and Craig Frethey now, (and then!) I've gotta keep telling myself I'm exactly where they were last year (Edit: comparing my best warmed up afternoon lap time with their worst cold morning straight off the trailer qualifying time, so not fair comparison). But the last thing racers like me need is some tosser saying that because world class riders like Stroud, Jones and Shirriffs are lapping me I shouldn't have a crack, quite frankly you can go and get fucked.

Lapping is a part of virtually every motorsport event and to try and run races without it, or make it more complicated than it is, is an exercise in futility and will only result in fewer people prepared to front up.

Just enforce the 115% rule and get on with it.

[Tony.OK]

Oi...............er umm
http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=822217

With ya completely Spud...............I'd like to see the blue flags used but with proper instruction on what to do if you see one.
To me if you are shown the blue there are 2 possible scenarios,

1- shown a blue on a straight..............then you hold your line and speed but ya should have time for a sneaky peek to see where the leaders are, and if well back then allow them to pass before the next corner.

2- shown a blue coming into a corner..........hold your racing line and speed but stay on the inside when exiting the turn, that'll allow the leaders to pass on the outside and you won't bugger them up by running wide coming out.

Thats my take anyhoo's.

[slowpoke]

Oi...............er umm
http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=822217

With ya completely Spud...............I'd like to see the blue flags used but with proper instruction on what to do if you see one.
To me if you are shown the blue there are 2 possible scenarios,

1- shown a blue on a straight..............then you hold your line and speed but ya should have time for a sneaky peek to see where the leaders are, and if well back then allow them to pass before the next corner.

2- shown a blue coming into a corner..........hold your racing line and speed but stay on the inside when exiting the turn, that'll allow the leaders to pass on the outside and you won't bugger them up by running wide coming out.

Thats my take anyhoo's.

Sorry mate, I only looked at the qualifying times, http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=818420 it wasn't fair of me to compare your qualifying time straight off the trailer on a cold track with my best time, set after racing during the day, and on a warm track.

I should have known I was slower than that, haha.

Hey, if you rock up to Taupo you are more than welcome to sneak on my leathers and set a new PB for me. In fact if you do it during this new LG thingy I'll split the winnings with ya!

[roadracingoldfart]

Hey, if you rock up to Taupo you are more than welcome to sneak on my leathers and set a new PB for me. In fact if you do it during this new LG thingy I'll split the winnings with ya!

I smell a scam brewing

Are we going to have to implement retina scaning to verify riders now ???

[roadracingoldfart]

Are lapped riders the most important safety issue for riders what else is there?

Hell no , there are much more important issues to cover before we worry about a lapped rider situation.
After all , this is racing , there has to be a fast and a slow and a middle speed.

I fully agree with Glen W in his post , ok and Jay as well
If you are going to be passed by a faster rider in my opinion the blue flag can be a fly in the ointment as the slower rider may become eratic , looking for you and moving around thinking they are doing the best they can , in fact they can sometimes make the faster rider have to re-select the route through the corner and yet still try to defend from a possible second faster rider. I have seen this a few times and it gets messy , mainly for the 2 faster riders and yet the slower one will get grief for it , thats unfair.

But hey , what do i know , im retired or is there an "a & d " missing in that jumble of letters .?

Paul.

[GSVR]

Its to have a seperate champonship within the race. i.e one for privateers, and one for factory.

I agree with Jay and Glen. Both explained well!

Cheers, Chris

Was trying to point out what are the benefits of running a championship within a championship if the 2 classes of bike are so close to being the same.

I don't see any huge differences now the proposed rules have been ammended.

Whats to stop a factory supported rider running in this class if their bike complies? And the word privateers has been removed to avoid the any confusion now.

Threadswas to explore the potentual risks of running a slower class in with one thats say 4 or 5 seconds a lap faster.


Thanks for the posts everyone this has been an interesting read.

[Tony.OK]

Sorry mate, I only looked at the qualifying times, http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=818420 it wasn't fair of me to compare your qualifying time straight off the trailer on a cold track with my best time, set after racing during the day, and on a warm track.

I should have known I was slower than that, haha.

Hey, if you rock up to Taupo you are more than welcome to sneak on my leathers and set a new PB for me. In fact if you do it during this new LG thingy I'll split the winnings with ya!

Hahaa..................no worries at all my friend, I only got 1 lap in during qual and my battery died

I smell a scam brewing

Are we going to have to implement retina scaning to verify riders now ???

Nah............the difference in belly size would be enough to give me away

[Billy]

Hell no , there are much more important issues to cover before we worry about a lapped rider situation.
After all , this is racing , there has to be a fast and a slow and a middle speed.

I fully agree with Glen W in his post , ok and Jay as well
If you are going to be passed by a faster rider in my opinion the blue flag can be a fly in the ointment as the slower rider may become eratic , looking for you and moving around thinking they are doing the best they can , in fact they can sometimes make the faster rider have to re-select the route through the corner and yet still try to defend from a possible second faster rider. I have seen this a few times and it gets messy , mainly for the 2 faster riders and yet the slower one will get grief for it , thats unfair.

But hey , what do i know , im retired or is there an "a & d " missing in that jumble of letters .?

Paul.

Yip,Agree 100%,The best thing you can do when being lapped is nothing,Just carry on as normal and the faster guys will get round you,The WORST thing you can do is try and change your line mid corner

Oh and yeah,Why did you leave the a&d out.LOL

[Two Smoker]

Was trying to point out what are the benefits of running a championship within a championship if the 2 classes of bike are so close to being the same.

I don't see any huge differences now the proposed rules have been ammended.

Whats to stop a factory supported rider running in this class if their bike complies? And the word privateers has been removed to avoid the any confusion now.

Threadswas to explore the potentual risks of running a slower class in with one thats say 4 or 5 seconds a lap faster.


Thanks for the posts everyone this has been an interesting read.

The original idea was to keep the same rules and run two different championships within. If he is a factory supported rider, then he isnt a privateer is he?

This is an idea to benefit the racers that are 3-4 seconds of front runner pace. This means those riders are still within 115%.

[Biggles08]

I believe it really is not an issue if the lapped riders are within a certain percentage of the frontrunners...whether that is 107% or 115% its not really an issue. As a lapped rider in the most recent round of the Nats at Puke, I was lapped about at the 14 lap mark and was blue flagged at Castrol. I still gunned it as best I could down the back straight and knew I had riders right behind me so I simply took a slightly wider, non agressive line into the hairpin allowing the faster riders to out brake me on the inside into the hairpin. No issue here (apart from the commentator saying some stupid thing like "look at the speed difference between the lapped riders and the lead guys" when I clearly was giving way at this point...grrrrrr!).

In the TT race I was lapped just before going over the hill and this could have been messy had I not kept a cool head. I was un-aware that there was such a big group fighting for the lead and I must admit it was a bit hair rasing as 5-6 bikes went past me on all sides as we were exiting the hill....but fuck what a rush!!!!

I think where the issue is is when inexperienced riders a) are not going fast enough and b) when they panic as they see the blue flag.

The best thing a lapped rider can do is really do nothing out of the ordinary but ALSO not run defensive lines. The fast guys are the ones that need to manage the overtaking in a safe manner...they don't want to crash either.

If a lapped rider is obviously not up to the challenge of keeping pace it is then up to the officials to black flag them for the saftey of everyone.

my 2c anyway...and coming from a lapped rider, I didn't mind getting lapped it allowed me to ride for half a lap behind the fast guys :-D