Hypothetical situation

[DEATH_INC.]

Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?

rider 'a's first quote was $5500 for a defense....

[boomer]

rider 'a's first quote was $5500 for a defense....

For a beer and a packet of cheese whatsits i'll give u a water tight defence.. Just like imdying, all i need is a number plate and an officer #.

[MarkH]

Mark what world do you live in??
Ok lets go with your idea here--hey fuggit theyre gonna get found not guilty so no loss no foul.
So tell me who pays rider A and F's wages for that day in court?
Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?
Also do you think rider A or F can afford NOT to tell their employer in advance. Even should it go well do you feel come promotion time either persons employer is going to see them as a shining light??
And anyway Do you honestly feel that at the very least rider B and C shouldn't apologise to the other two riders??

I agree that it is a shitty situation - it does bug me that the police would do that to innocent people. If only the police would apologise for the shit that they put innocent people through. I am not convinced that the anger directed against B & C here shouldn't be directed at the police instead, they are the ones charging the wrong people.

Why couldn't the police have just dished out instant fines for illegal passing and let these guys go on their way. Court appearances & time off work for 2 guys that didn't even do what the cops are accusing them of - way over the top IMO.

If riders B & C want to apologise to A & F then I am fine with that - I bet the police don't apologise though!

[MarkH]

What about friends?
Have you had any?

Yep, more than enough friends - thanks for asking. Never had one expect me to take the rap for them or vice versa.

Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yep, more than enough friends - thanks for asking. Never had one expect me to take the rap for them or vice versa.

Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too.

You have done everything possible to avoid the issue. I think it only fair to assume you have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends, hence my question.
Being that you assure me you do infact have friends, how say you, would you let a friend take the rap for you in this case?
How about if it were say Frosty, would you let him take the rap for you in this case?

Now, lets try and cut the waffle in your response. 2 questions, yes or no answers will suffice. No ducking and weaving is necessary and there are no additional points for extra words.

[DEATH_INC.]

Why couldn't the police have just dished out instant fines for illegal passing and let these guys go on their way.

Part of the problem is the witness wasn't the one handing out the fines, he was stuck in traffic. It was two completely different officers who did not witness the offences.

Isn't this hypothetical case more about some guys riding together that are not necessarily best buds or anything? Cause I think that would make a difference too

Correct, just acquaintances through a biker website.

[Madness]

Consider this...

There have been quite a few posts in here that sum up some of the consequences that Rider A may have faced already, prior to the case being heard. With some inside knowledge, I can add to this the following:

On the day of the incident, Rider A had to go home and tell their partner of the charge. At the time the partner had been receiving courses of both Chemo & Radiation therapy (they give you that when you have Cancer).

Since the day (now 5 months ago), Rider A has had the weight of the charges hanging over them, like a very dark cloud. Not a day goes by when they don't consider how the fuck they will get to work & back each day, without putting their (sick) partner to unwanted inconvenience, should they get convicted.

Since not long after the day, Rider A has had their bike in the shed, rego on hold. It aint much fun sitting home all weekend brooding, especially when you read threads on KB about certain fuckwits pulling wheelstands in front of the Poo-lice and getting away with it.

Since the day, Rider A has paid $500 to a Lawyer and got SFA for their money. They have now found a more affordable Lawyer, possibly requiring only another $1000 to defend them. As Death mentioned, the first Lawyer wanted $5,500 just for the defended hearing.

So far Rider has taken one day off work, another day off pending and all before a defended hearing date has been set.

Rider A has had to put off plans to buy their first home, the legal bills were scaring the crap out of them.

Rider A had no idea that other riders were pulling wheelstands at the time of the incident, they were at the front and looking forward, trying to get home to their sick partner. It's only since the day that they learned what was going on behind them.

The last time Rider A pulled a wheelstand was in 1991, on an RM250 and it was by accident. Rider A does not pull wheelstands, let alone on S.H.1 in a traffic jam, on the wrong side of double-yellows.

Yes, the Poo-lice suck. Rider's A & F are not asking anyone to take the rap for them, it's purely about assuming responsibility for ones own actions, as opposed to being a gutless wonder who is prepared to let someone else pay for their fuck-ups.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

[MarkH]

You have done everything possible to avoid the issue. I think it only fair to assume you have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends, hence my question.
Being that you assure me you do infact have friends, how say you, would you let a friend take the rap for you in this case?
How about if it were say Frosty, would you let him take the rap for you in this case?

Now, lets try and cut the waffle in your response. 2 questions, yes or no answers will suffice. No ducking and weaving is necessary and there are no additional points for extra words.

TBH
I am less than impressed with the personal attacks on me for expressing my opinion on this forum. If you really think that it is fair to assume that I have no concept of morality or honour amongst friends then I think you might want to think a bit harder about yourself and your views. Who started this thread to get the opinions and feelings of the rest of us on this forum and did that person do so while not wanting to know anything from anyone that had a different viewpoint from himself?

I have never said that I would let a friend take the rap for me and I have never put a friend in that position. Since I don't pull wheelstands and we are not talking about me than what does it matter what I would do? I have no reason to drop Frosty in the shit for anything and though I have never met him (I don't think I have anyway) from what I have read on the forums he is a decent stand up guy and I have no reason to do anything bad to him.

Just because I can see the position that riders B & C are in and think that the cops are the bad guys in this particular case I don't think that really makes me a bastard. I don't have access to all the facts and so I don't like to condemn a couple of guys based on only part of the story. But I do have a lot of sympathy for the 2 riders accused of something that from what has been told here they didn't do and it seems to me (again from what I understand from the facts mentioned here) that the police have been pretty shocking in this case.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

I have to wonder if there is really any need for this sort of shit? Is this an internet discussion forum for people to give their opinions on only if they agree with you?

[The Stranger:Me]

I have no reason to drop Frosty in the shit for anything and though I have never met him (I don't think I have anyway) from what I have read on the forums he is a decent stand up guy and I have no reason to do anything bad to him.

So that's a "no" to my prior post then and "Man" on the poll.

I humbly and graciously accept your gratitude for the arduous task of assisting you with your decision making process with such dedication, patience, care and understanding.

[Winston001]

.......it seems to me (again from what I understand from the facts mentioned here) that the police have been pretty shocking in this case.

Mark, what exactly do you think is the job of a police officer? Imagine you and your bike were kicked over by a group of youths. The police grab a couple of street kids a few minutes later whom you identify as "looking" like two of the offenders. And the police say - "Sorry mate, we weren't there to see it so we won't be laying charges."

It isn't a game. The police must believe they have identified the correct riders sufficiently to take this to court. They understand that a judge might disagree - but most of the time the police get convictions which suggests they get the balance right.

[MarkH]

It isn't a game. The police must believe they have identified the correct riders sufficiently to take this to court. They understand that a judge might disagree - but most of the time the police get convictions which suggests they get the balance right.

Well I hope in this case they don't get their conviction - clearly they did not identify the correct riders and have, as a result, put a couple of bikers through quite a stressful process. I have never been one to be happy to see innocent people convicted because the police were just doing their best charging those that look like the culprits.

I would hope the other riders that were there would be very willing to stand up in court and do their best to sway the judge in favour of the innocent guys.

[The Stranger:Me]

Mmmm, I've resisted posting this up long enough... if anyone's interested.
This is what the main witnesses account of things would look like in this hypothetical situation if taken from the police disclosure....

I was travelling south on s/h* and climbing the p******* hill. I was off duty but in an unmarked police patrol car. traffic was very heavy and travelling slowly probably about 10-20 kph on average.
As I passed through the end of the first southbound passing laneand just about to cross the viaduct i looked in the external rearview mirror I saw a motorcycle (rider 'A') coming from behind me up the wrong side of the road and on the wrong side of the no passing line. I was unsure of the registration.
I looked in the mirror again and saw a group of motorcycles approaching. The first of these (rider 'B') was performing a 'wheelstand' as the rider came up the hill on the wrong side of the no passing line. The wheelstand was sustained over a considerable distance, perhaps up to 100 meters.
As the motorcycle went past me still on the wrong side of the road I was able to get the registration number *****
I looked again and saw another motorcycle (rider 'C') approaching very quickly. this motorcycle performed a number of short distance wheelstands as it overtook traffic up the wrong side of the no passing lines. As the motorcycle went past me I saw the registration began with a * but could not make out the rest of the plate.
Another 3 motorcycles (riders 'd' 'e' and 'f') followed but I was unable to get thier registration no's.
I radioed ahead and passed the information I had to Highway patrol units. These hp units stopped these vehicles further down the road.
By the time I had travelled to P**** in the traffic stream the motorcycles had been stopped at C************ Drive.


Now, what may have happened is rider 'A' and rider 'F' were pulled up and issued with dangerous driving notices, for performing these wheelstands, and may now be going to court to defend the charges.
Rider 'B' is being very quiet (pretty sure they know about it...) and rider 'C' is denying everything.
Waddayathink?

Consider this...

There have been quite a few posts in here that sum up some of the consequences that Rider A may have faced already, prior to the case being heard. With some inside knowledge, I can add to this the following:

On the day of the incident, Rider A had to go home and tell their partner of the charge. At the time the partner had been receiving courses of both Chemo & Radiation therapy (they give you that when you have Cancer).

Since the day (now 5 months ago), Rider A has had the weight of the charges hanging over them, like a very dark cloud. Not a day goes by when they don't consider how the fuck they will get to work & back each day, without putting their (sick) partner to unwanted inconvenience, should they get convicted.

Since not long after the day, Rider A has had their bike in the shed, rego on hold. It aint much fun sitting home all weekend brooding, especially when you read threads on KB about certain fuckwits pulling wheelstands in front of the Poo-lice and getting away with it.

Since the day, Rider A has paid $500 to a Lawyer and got SFA for their money. They have now found a more affordable Lawyer, possibly requiring only another $1000 to defend them. As Death mentioned, the first Lawyer wanted $5,500 just for the defended hearing.

So far Rider has taken one day off work, another day off pending and all before a defended hearing date has been set.

Rider A has had to put off plans to buy their first home, the legal bills were scaring the crap out of them.

Rider A had no idea that other riders were pulling wheelstands at the time of the incident, they were at the front and looking forward, trying to get home to their sick partner. It's only since the day that they learned what was going on behind them.

The last time Rider A pulled a wheelstand was in 1991, on an RM250 and it was by accident. Rider A does not pull wheelstands, let alone on S.H.1 in a traffic jam, on the wrong side of double-yellows.

Yes, the Poo-lice suck. Rider's A & F are not asking anyone to take the rap for them, it's purely about assuming responsibility for ones own actions, as opposed to being a gutless wonder who is prepared to let someone else pay for their fuck-ups.

Mark H, go ride your fucking scooter will ya?.

Riders B & C, your silence is DEAFENING.

[imdying]

None of them really owe anyone anything. They were all on the ride, probably all speeding at times, probably grossly at times, probably all riding over the yellow lines at times... we've (sports bike riders) all been there. They've probably all done it for years, and have some great times on bikes, some bad times (tickets) too. I'd wager that they all know very well that if you run with the bulls, chances are eventually you'll get stomped.

If the man who got pinged doesn't want to take the fall, for whatever reason (sick partner, not that close to the real culprit, can't afford it, whatever) then they should point the law in right direction. Whoever really did it can't really complain too much, they actually did it after all.

I would take the fall for my close mates, but I don't have a sick spouse at home that would be grossly inconvenienced, and I can afford the bill. If they're not close, and their partner is really that sick, then the way forward is clear.

Situation reversed, given those circumstances, I'd understand why I was going to be 'dobbed in'. Although if they came to me and told me why they had to do it, I'd probably go to the pen with them and have it all sorted out on the spot, rather than having it turn even messier with the he said she said.

Riders B & C should keep their heads down as they've been doing, no need to incriminate other riders any further.

[FROSTY:Me]

Imdying. I suspect you havent read what the issue is.
Quite specifically 2 guys did something the cops feel dangerous. That SPECIFICALLY being pulling wheelies on a busy road on the wrong side of no passing lines. Rider A doesn't do wheelies and rider F does wheelies only where theres noone around.
Rider C boasts at his "ability" to do wheelies in busy public places and get away with it.

[imdying]

I suspect I can't follow the ABCD rubbish. Just give them names and be done with it, from what I can tell rider A is R64Life, who're the others?