4stroke oil

**barty5** · 22nd July 2009, 08:53

Originally Posted by Quasievil

i can tell you its not true I can also tell you the HRT team uses Mobil 1 as does alot of teams, to the point where I have put the oil into a HRT engine personally

Ive been told by a number of dealer (holden ) not to put it in they said it becomes to thin and dose in the cranks ??? (road cars not race)
ah who knows im stickin with the elf in mine

**CookMySock** · 22nd July 2009, 09:13

Originally Posted by barty5

latest rmmour thats around in oils is that some companies that are stating their oils are SM rated which in fact are not.

I would not be surprised. Remind yourself how big these companies are.

There was also some company who made a 15W50 oil and stated it was the latest API spec, when that API spec would never have permitted a 15W50. That was about eight years ago and don't remember anything more about it.

Originally Posted by barty5

Ive been told by a number of dealer (holden ) not to put it in they said it becomes to thin and dose in the cranks ??? (road cars not race)
ah who knows im stickin with the elf in mine

I have been told the same, and I have personally witnessed this crap chop down until my precious motor sounded a stone in a fucking tin can.

Steve

**Quasievil** · 22nd July 2009, 09:38

Originally Posted by barty5

Ive been told by a number of dealer (holden ) not to put it in they said it becomes to thin and dose in the cranks ??? (road cars not race)
ah who knows im stickin with the elf in mine

Well as I actually work for Mobil I can assure you thats bollocks and smells of agendas as opposed to facts.

**Quasievil** · 22nd July 2009, 09:49

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

There was also some company who made a 15W50 oil and stated it was the latest API spec, when that API spec would never have permitted a 15W50. That was about eight years ago and don't remember anything more about it.

Whats wrong with a 15W-50 oil made to a API spec?
API American Petroleum Institute endorse a 15W-50, what you on about ?

**camchain** · 22nd July 2009, 11:35

Hey there Dangerous B. I'm fairly sure the extreme pressure additives are not what causes MC clutches to slip, you do want these in a bike oil. It's the friction modifiers in car oils that can cause wet clutch problems, theres a difference.

Eg Apparently you can now get car oils with 'eco' label. Personally I wouldn't touch this stuff with a barge pole for my bike or car. Engine likely to run freer and more fuel economy but I'd guess shorter engine life (and maybe MC wet clutch probs). I'm equally wary of the high end oils labelled race/for high performance. Maybe a bit more power but at what cost to engine life? Can't see how friction modifier designed to reduce the friction within the oil (ie less syrupy and freer flowing) doesn't also alter its protecting viscosity. OK for sponsored racers getting frequent engine rebuilds but I'll steer clear at least for now. I reckon this is the sort of general stuff that should be discussed on here. Ball wear tests are interesting but more for fine tuning ideas about what specific oil we're going to buy.

I certainly have read in a couple of places about a misconception Re extra 'slipperyness' of Synthetic. Was trying to avoid bloating my 1st post but a good example would be the idea that some will say it's not a good idea to run in an engine on it, that it won't bed in properly. I used to think this but, kind of changing my mind these days. Some very high end/high performance car makers run synthetic from brand new. Performance is their bread and butter.

Not sure where you're coming from with the idea I was diagnosing oil by eye, but no worries. I don't taste it either, but I have been known to sniff very stinky fork oil (lol) & wonder why it did that.

I don't really agree that using a top qual/syn trans lube for longer is a good idea. True, you're not getting combustion contamination (in 2t, sorry but 90% relevant) but you are getting contamination from clutch. Oil in trans gets a tough time due to heavily loaded gears meshing, this is hard work for any oil.

**CookMySock** · 22nd July 2009, 13:03

Originally Posted by Quasievil

Whats wrong with a 15W-50 oil made to a API spec?
API American Petroleum Institute endorse a 15W-50, what you on about ?

As I say, it was nearly ten years ago. I won't defend it on a logical basis because I dont remember the facts, not do I care, but basically it was something like that particular API spec would never certify a SAE 50 rated oil. edit: my point being, big oil companies, just like any other big companies, will often make up all sorts of stories.

Originally Posted by camchain

Hey there Dangerous B. I'm fairly sure the extreme pressure additives are not what causes MC clutches to slip, you do want these in a bike oil. It's the friction modifiers in car oils that can cause wet clutch problems, theres a difference.

Yes yes, you are quite correct. I edited my post almost immeditately.

edit:

Originally Posted by camchain

Oil in trans gets a tough time due to heavily loaded gears meshing, this is hard work for any oil.

Agreed. The gear action "chops up" the long strands of VI improvers, which is really harmful to the SAE rating of the oil, and it loses viscosity fast. This is particularly bad for lubricants that heavily rely on the their VI improver package, and completely irrelevant for those that do not. Some high end oils DON'T HAVE a VI improver package, you can chop that fucker until the sky turns black and it won't thin out unless you contaminate it with something.

Yeah clutches will leave wear particles in it.

My apologies for all the edits. Brain is not working so well today.

Steve

**stig** · 22nd July 2009, 13:31

below link is the better summary on oil for thumpers I came across when I was trying to nail down the subect.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Summary leans towards fully synthetic diesel oils for reasons contained in the page.

Synthetic oils have a higher viscosity index than mineral base oils.
Synthetics have better resistance to thinning at high temperatures and thickening at low temperatures.
Since synthetics have little or no VIIs, synthetics last longer in service without radical changes in viscosity. (VII's breakdown dee to shearing in bike gearboxes)

Synthetics have a much higher film strength than petroleum oils, so it takes a lot longer for the oil to drain completely off your bearings and into your sump

This can be important to some of us offroaders as the bike can be sitting a while between uses.

Shell doesn't import thier Rotella T to NZ but Mobile has thier Delvac 1 here. I could only find it in 20L's though.

**Quasievil** · 22nd July 2009, 14:11

Originally Posted by stig

below link is the better summary on oil for thumpers I came across when I was trying to nail down the subect.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Summary leans towards fully synthetic diesel oils for reasons contained in the page.

This can be important to some of us offroaders as the bike can be sitting a while between uses.

Shell doesn't import thier Rotella T to NZ but Mobile has thier Delvac 1 here. I could only find it in 20L's though.

Dude dont put Delvac 1 in a bike ffs, its not recommended at all.

I use Mobil 1 racing 4t in my KTM and had done so for a year and its worry free, the engine looks and runs mint.

Delvac 1 sheeeesh !

**takitimu** · 22nd July 2009, 14:18

Originally Posted by Quasievil

Dude dont put Delvac 1 in a bike ffs, its not recommended at all.

I use Mobil 1 racing 4t in my KTM and had done so for a year and its worry free, the engine looks and runs mint.

Delvac 1 sheeeesh !

Mmm, I am not so sure on that Mobil 1 4t, surely doesn't do alot for 250EXCF life span ( 60-70 hours piston ).

Before you go off the deap end on delvac 1, might pay to do some more reading, this item was very interesting http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageS...xpert_faq.html

**CookMySock** · 22nd July 2009, 14:39

Originally Posted by takitimu

Mmm, I am not so sure on that Mobil 1 4t, surely doesn't do alot for 250EXCF life span ( 60-70 hours piston ).

I won't use mobil 1. It chops down real fast - I can hear this stuff going bad, fast. I sure would like to hear about its' VII Package, but I bet no one is talking.

Originally Posted by takitimu

Before you go off the deap end on delvac 1, might pay to do some more reading, this item was very interesting http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageS...xpert_faq.html

C'mon thats just one persons say-so. While Delvac was widely respected as a general purpose engine oil in its time, I submit that modern oils are light-years ahead of it now.

Steve

**Quasievil** · 22nd July 2009, 16:20

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

my point being, big oil companies, just like any other big companies, will often make up all sorts of stories.

No I dont agree, Oil companies have to held accountable for anything they say amongst the market and its customers, therefore they are very very careful as to what they say, its more so the consumer that fills the market with B.S

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

I won't use mobil 1. It chops down real fast - I can hear this stuff going bad, fast. I sure would like to hear about its' VII Package, but I bet no one is talking.

Steve

What do you mean by chops down?

VII you mean the Viscosity Index VI ?? or the Viscosity index Improver?

**CookMySock** · 22nd July 2009, 17:49

Originally Posted by Quasievil

What do you mean by chops down?

VII you mean the Viscosity Index VI ?? or the Viscosity index Improver?

VI is Viscosity Index. VII package is VI Improver package.

Chops down, is breaks up the long-strand VI molecules so the oil cannot maintain viscosity.

Engine oil with VII's is like grated raw potato. If the long strands are subject to large shear forces they will break up, leaving lots of little chopped up bits and a soupy thin mess. If a base stock is used that doesn't require a VI improver package to achieve its' SAE rating, then this cannot happen. This is the difference between a quality synthetic made to do a job, and a cheap one designed to make its' master money.

Mobil 1 pretty clearly has a vulnerable VII package - I can hear it. After only a few thousand km's the oil looses it's "thickness" and the engine rattly as fuck.

Disclaimer: I don't sell any engine oil, and I don't care who uses what oil. It's my opinion only, and I might be wrong. So there.

Steve

**Quasievil** · 22nd July 2009, 17:56

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

VI is Viscosity Index. VII package is VI Improver package.

Chops down, is breaks up the long-strand VI molecules so the oil cannot maintain viscosity.

Engine oil with VII's is like grated raw potato. If the long strands are subject to large shear forces they will break up, leaving lots of little chopped up bits and a soupy thin mess. If a base stock is used that doesn't require a VI improver package to achieve its' SAE rating, then this cannot happen. This is the difference between a quality synthetic made to do a job, and a cheap one designed to make its' master money.

Mobil 1 pretty clearly has a vulnerable VII package - I can hear it. After only a few thousand km's the oil looses it's "thickness" and the engine rattly as fuck.

Disclaimer: I don't sell any engine oil, and I don't care who uses what oil. It's my opinion only, and I might be wrong. So there.

Steve

yeah I know what it is dude, I work for Mobil lol

I know that its always the oils fault to ..............not .........lol