Flags, colours, and their use

[yungatart]

Paintball guns?
We could use them on the birds/ducks on the track too?

[Deano]

Now in a demolition derby, they'd just send out a stock car to ram the farker off the track. (Sorry that's not very constructive)

[Kickaha]

Paintball guns?
We could use them on the birds/ducks on the track too?

Tasers, the police need practice

[roadracingoldfart]

And we still don't have a realistic answer...

Ohhh but we do have an answer, The correct flag colour shown and the riders all knowing what it means. The wheel dosnt have to be re-invented at all , the solution is already there in front of us.
The chance of a similar event is very high as engines do sometimes shit themselves and for no apparent reason and in no defined time frame. It does take time to clean up and it is a pain but its just part of motorsport.
Who is old enough to remember the reason we stopped attending combined car / bike meetings ??? , theres the reason.
Even if we follow some countries regulations and have a catch section in the lower of our fairings then thats fine but this event was a top end spew so there is no way to contain that unless its a sealed engine unit .

[MSTRS:Me]

Ohhh but we do have an answer, The correct flag colour shown and the riders all knowing what it means.

So...a black/orange flag and number board at every marshal station?

[roadracingoldfart]

So...a black/orange flag and number board at every marshal station?

NO ..... that would be dangerous as most marshall stations are in a safe zone and not directly at the side of the course, a marshall should not have to leave the safety of the station to inform a rider of anything but a flag at each station and a board at the pit wall as well as the flag is what i would recommend (as the rules state now) but a heads up (flag shown) of an issue to an individual or group of riders would be a good idea.
The rules are presently set up to show a board at the pit wall (chief marshall point) so why is it up to anyone other than MNZ to alter/ adapt that part of the rule.
The extra notification from marshall points may just confirm to a rider that they have a problem , EG ; foot falling off a peg issue through the infield , then seeing the correct flag at a station when said racer goes past may ensure a more serious look at that footpeg from the rider ohh cock , oil on the peg...... I will pull over now that flags for me. Either way the next time past the pit wall the riders number will be displayed and hopefully correct action taken by the rider.

There is no set in concrete answer or solution to any problem that occurs but as in the red flag rule a few years ago a simple allowance to show a red from multiple stations has im sure saved lives and incidents from happening.
If a comprimise has to occur to allow a safer race meeting then im all for it but only if it is easy enough to instigate and is clearly understood by the racers and marshalls.
If MNZ got off its ass and made it a standing rule if it works out
(why wouldnt it ) i would also see that as a foreward move. But to leave it to individual clubs is not what should happen.

[Skunk]

Why has this turned into a focus on the flag?

He was not a race pace so should have pulled off the track as soon as safe to do so and stayed there until the issue was fixed or recovery picked him up. We are talking about a life and death situation here.

Bugger the oil - that can be cleaned up. If you can't do race pace, for any reason, get off the track - now.

This is clearly Rule 22-1-1

[roadracingoldfart]

Why has this turned into a focus on the flag?

He was not a race pace so should have pulled off the track as soon as safe to do so and stayed there until the issue was fixed or recovery picked him up. We are talking about a life and death situation here.

Bugger the oil - that can be cleaned up. If you can't do race pace, for any reason, get off the track - now.

This is clearly Rule 22-1-1

Hmmm difficult call Skunk .
22-1-1 If during practice or racing a competitors machine malfunctions or becomes disabled for any reason and the competitor is unable to continue racing s/he must hold their line until it is safe to move as quickly and as safely as possible from the track. The machine must be parked as far from the track as practical and the rider should move to the safest available
position.


As for the "why has it turned into a focus on the flag " issue Ummm it always was , thats why the thread is titled what it is !!!!.

[Skunk]

As for the "why has it turned into a focus on the flag " issue Ummm it always was , thats why the thread is titled what it is !!!!.

I know... just taking the piss mate.

And I don't see it as a difficult call: if you're not at race pace - park it.
Ask yourself:
1/ Am I racing or
2/ Am I going slower because something's wrong?

If it's 2 then park it and sort it. Is it safe to continue? It's only yes if you're going to continue racing.

Anything else and you're putting safety at risk.

[MSTRS:Me]

And I don't see it as a difficult call: if you're not at race pace - park it.
Ask yourself:
1/ Am I racing or
2/ Am I going slower because something's wrong?

If it's 2 then park it and sort it. Is it safe to continue? It's only yes if you're going to continue racing.

Anything else and you're putting safety at risk.

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.
However, if the powers-that-be in the tower decide to pull a bike off the track, and black/orange flags are not to be issued to marshal points, then I ask AGAIN...HOW????

[Billy]

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.

Agree,Whole heartedly with this statement,I have a sneaky suspicion this rule was imposed on us as a kneejerk reaction too the Derek Hill/Phillip Harrison tragedy that took place at Pukekohe.However if its in the rulebook it MUST be adhered to.I have outlined breifly in an email too the Victoria club a small amount of my thoughts regarding the above incident and I personally dont see it as completely rider error.I have made My thoughts clear too Jim Tuckerman regarding a number of rules that have been imposed on as kneejerk reactions rather than sensible consideration and analysis by the powers that be.Some of which add to the stresses of trying to get through a race program for club officials and in my opinion add other safety issues we never had to deal with before.However,I dont see completely as an administration problem either,There is a certain amount of blame that lies squarely at the competitors feet.IE a complete lack of knowledge regarding the rules for 1.As a competitor you are obliged too read and understand fully the rules pertaining to your particular section of the sport.MOTOR RACING IS DANGEROUS,FACT and the dangers are only increased when patricipants dont know how or when they are expected too do what!!!Secondly,What happened to good old common sense??I have had occasion over the last 12 months too repair engines for people that had blown.On each occasion it was obvious too me when I pulled the engine down it had clearly been ridden at full throttle until it had come too a complete standstill,Creating a huge amount of unnecessary damage to the engine and unnecessary risk to the offending rider and other competitors and officials.If your machine suffers a significant loss of power then clearly something major has occured and the motorsport pixies are not going too dive in and fix it while you continue on trying too ride it,You should immediately pull the clutch in and as soon as is completely safe put your hand up too signal to other competitors you have a problem and remove yourself and machine immediately from the circuit until the race/practice is finished.READING and Understanding the rulebook before going racing is a must.If you havent already read it,Do it now!!!

[Tony.OK]

Don't agree with that. Many are the times that a bike will have a 'momentary' issue like a fouled plug that clears . Or whatever. As long as a slow/er bike is not impeding racing, let them continue. If they do not exit at pit or slip-lane, or are 'all over' the track, then that's another matter.
However, if the powers-that-be in the tower decide to pull a bike off the track, and black/orange flags are not to be issued to marshal points, then I ask AGAIN...HOW????

If "they" don't want to issue flags for you guys, then expect you to make up the rules yourself then the question seriously needs to be asked of the "powers that be".
There has been offers made to cover costs, solutions for # boards given................................only the officials can decide what they want mate, the rules are there, if its down to cost well thats just something that needs sorting imho.

[MSTRS:Me]

If "they" don't want to issue flags for you guys, then expect you to make up the rules yourself then the question seriously needs to be asked of the "powers that be".
There has been offers made to cover costs, solutions for # boards given................................only the officials can decide what they want mate, the rules are there, if its down to cost well thats just something that needs sorting imho.

No mate, we didn't 'make up' anything...the PTB told us to use the red with suitable gestures. It didn't work. It's not entirely obvious what would have worked, or whether we actually need something that does. The incident was a very rare one, after all.
It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...

[Tony.OK]

It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...

The rules I've read say nothing about marshal points not being allowed black or blk/orange flags. They do say a # board is to be used with them, but I'm sure if people are told in briefing that these flags are going to be used and if you see a marshall with one pointing at you then you MUST retire immediately.

Really depends how close to the letter you want to use the rules. As it was the rules were embelished for this particular incident.

[Skunk]

It does seem obvious that Vic Club, at least, has no wish to see black flags of any sort issued to marshals. It's not down to cost, but rather a control-thing through MNZ rules.
The issue of how to flag a rider off the track continues...

It's not that either MSTRS. We'd just like the riders to read and understand the rule book. He should have stopped as soon as he thought he had a problem. If he had there would be no call for a Black/Orange flag.
If the riders don't know Rule 22-1-1 then I doubt they would know what a Black/Orange flag means anyway.
I've been asked what the Red/Orange flag means by several riders and it's use is far more common.
The issue isn't one of having the flags - it's one of the riders knowing what they mean.
Secondary is the flag points having the flags. I think the Vic Club will review this, but it's not the solution if the rider doesn't know it's meaning and isn't following another rule anyway.

Hoping this doesn't happen again is not the answer either and I'm not sticking my head in the sand about it. My belief is that the FIRST THING to be sorted is riders knowing the rules. Then sort the rest.

Experienced marshals such as yourself are a godsend to the running of the meetings and we need more.