Mission One electric sportsbike

[bogan]

LED headlight is probably a waste. Quartz Halogens get a similar amount of light per watt than all but the most efficient (and expensive) LEDs and are a hell of a lot easier, no controller required or anything (you don't want to use a ballast resistor otherwise you'll use more power than a bulb by a long way).

For the indicators, LEDs are definitely the way to go.

Either way, it is going to be less than 100W all up, so barely a drop in the bucket...

Will have to look into quartz halogen by the sound of it. And no i wouldnt use a ballast resistor, just put a heap in series. I may stick some led running lights on mine for a bit of extra visibility.

[jono035]

lifepo4 batteries used in the high power EV's are very different form the lithiums you find in laptops etc, in that they do not explode! Though i heard this from a guy selling the lifepo4's

Wikipedia would appear to back you up on that...

"LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2 and manganese spinel."

[jono035]

Will have to look into quartz halogen by the sound of it. And no i wouldnt use a ballast resistor, just put a heap in series. I may stick some led running lights on mine for a bit of extra visibility.

You've got to have at least some amount of ballast resistor with LEDs. The more LEDs you have in series, the more sensitive they will be to any voltage variations.

For instance 10V worth of LEDs and a ballast at 12V will have 2V across the ballast. When this increases to 14V then the current through the LEDs will have doubled. At 16V then the current is tripled. I guess it depends on what you're going to be doing in terms of powering them. Are you going to have a buck converter to drop the battery voltage down to 12V or so? That would negate the problem.

Btw, I'm not sure wtf I was thinking when I said quartz halogen, I meant Xenon HID lamps... The kind with the blue tint to them in car headlights.

[davereid]

Electric cars and motorcycles are really old technology, being re-invented from time to time to score a clean-air research grant or fool an investor.

The only thing that has really improved since Mr. Edison made the first magnetic engines is the power source energy density.

Look at it this way...

My bike has a 20 kg fuel capacity, = 928 MJ of energy in the tank.
My conversion to zooms is pretty crap, but I still have over 300 MJ of zooms awaiting my request, as well as heat that is handy in cars in cold places.

Mr. Edisons best battery, lead acid gave him 2.8 MJ of storage for the same weight, but he could convert it to motion at very high efficiency, leaving him with 2.65 zooms in the tank, but no spare heat for the footwarmer.

Technology raced us ahead, almost 100% improvement in only 150 years with the 1999-2009 vintage NiMH battery of the same weight giving me 5 MJ of energy in the tank.

My best tested (but not mass produced) battery technology, Lithium ion nanowire, would give me 50.8 MJ of storage if I could make a 20kg one.

Of course, all the battery based systems are storage only.

I had to actually create the energy elsewhere to put in them, as well as use fuel to mine, transport, smelt, package and re-ship them to point of use.

Plus, depending on whos' report you read, assuming it were possible to convert the worlds vehicles to batteries, there may be insufficient lithium to make batteries for even 1/2 of the current generation of vehicles, leaving us somewhat short for the 2010 model year.

Electric cars and bikes are great, and may have a future role of some type. But even at their best they lag way way way behind liquid fuels.

[bogan]

You've got to have at least some amount of ballast resistor with LEDs. The more LEDs you have in series, the more sensitive they will be to any voltage variations.

For instance 10V worth of LEDs and a ballast at 12V will have 2V across the ballast. When this increases to 14V then the current through the LEDs will have doubled. At 16V then the current is tripled. I guess it depends on what you're going to be doing in terms of powering them. Are you going to have a buck converter to drop the battery voltage down to 12V or so? That would negate the problem.

Btw, I'm not sure wtf I was thinking when I said quartz halogen, I meant Xenon HID lamps... The kind with the blue tint to them in car headlights.

Im talking bout using them for an electric bike, so the voltage ripple is less than 1% (off a buck converter). For ICE bikes there really no point in using leds as theres so much power available anyway.

Ah yup, the halogen ones did sound a bit commonplace, though i thort the HID ones were a little bit iffy on the legality side of things.

[bogan]

Electric cars and motorcycles are really old technology, being re-invented from time to time to score a clean-air research grant or fool an investor.

The only thing that has really improved since Mr. Edison made the first magnetic engines is the power source energy density.

Look at it this way...

My bike has a 20 kg fuel capacity, = 928 MJ of energy in the tank.
My conversion to zooms is pretty crap, but I still have over 300 MJ of zooms awaiting my request, as well as heat that is handy in cars in cold places.

Mr. Edisons best battery, lead acid gave him 2.8 MJ of storage for the same weight, but he could convert it to motion at very high efficiency, leaving him with 2.65 zooms in the tank, but no spare heat for the footwarmer.

Technology raced us ahead, almost 100% improvement in only 150 years with the 1999-2009 vintage NiMH battery of the same weight giving me 5 MJ of energy in the tank.

My best tested (but not mass produced) battery technology, Lithium ion nanowire, would give me 50.8 MJ of storage if I could make a 20kg one.

Of course, all the battery based systems are storage only.

I had to actually create the energy elsewhere to put in them, as well as use fuel to mine, transport, smelt, package and re-ship them to point of use.

Plus, depending on whos' report you read, assuming it were possible to convert the worlds vehicles to batteries, there may be insufficient lithium to make batteries for even 1/2 of the current generation of vehicles, leaving us somewhat short for the 2010 model year.

Electric cars and bikes are great, and may have a future role of some type. But even at their best they lag way way way behind liquid fuels.

I had not heard of the lithium shortage before, bugger! Electrics do lag way behind liquid fuels, atm that is, battery technology is getting a lot better very quickly, and it doesnt matter how much power ICE bikes can get from petrol, when all the petrol runs out I figure if we try as many alternatives as possible now, we should stand a better chance as fuel starts to run out. And since battery electric is best suited for home conversion projects, thats where my interest is!

[Badjelly]

Assuming you need around 15hp to cruise at 100km/hr on a reasonably light bike...

Its based on a calculated 100kmhr power consumption of 5.3kw...

Yeah, I was going to say, 15 hp (11.2 kW) is way more than you need at cruise at 100 km/h. It's all aerodynamic drag at these speeds (on a level road, anyway) and the power requirement goes up as the cube of the speed.

My Scorpio has, what, 18 hp (13.4 kW) and will go 130 km/h. (Some say 140, but I don't believe them.) So at 100 km/h it will need 13.4 kW x (100/130)^3 = 6.1 kW. That depends primarily on frontal area and drag coefficient, not weight, so a 600 sporty will need less, until the rider pulls a wheelie.

When considering power use of electric vehicles, people tend to forget that most vehicles spend most of their time using a small fraction of maximum power.

[jono035]

Electric cars and motorcycles are really old technology, being re-invented from time to time to score a clean-air research grant or fool an investor.

The technology hasn't changed in a larger sense of motors, batteries, controllers have always been around, but I'm actually involved in some of the research being done into electric vehicle technologies and there is much more going on around me and we have come so far in so many different ways that it is quite disingenious to say otherwise.

Batteries: Sure, some of the same old chemistries are still around, but even those are being constantly improved by new electrode materials and manufacturing technologies. Large scale lithium based chemistries are now moving things from the realm of impossible when I started looking at this stuff 10 years ago to merely difficult now. Also it isn't about matching an ICE based vehicle to start with, it is about being 'good enough', which the vehicles available now/soon are for a lot of people.

Lithium shortage: Myth. Lithium ion batteries have bugger all lithium in them anyway. For the older electrode types it was the cobolt that was the problem, and that isn't even used in the manganese spinel or iron phosphate electrodes any more. These problems also have a way of getting solved/mitigated as more people start using them and they actually BECOME a problem. No-one cares about it at the moment because the lithium supply is plentiful for the forseeable future.

You use 32% as an efficiency number for your engine, half that is a more realistic number for total average efficiency.

Sure, you have to generate the energy elsewhere, but using electric motors in a vehicle allows you to be completely independent of that, meaning nuclear (gasp!) or wind/solar or whatever can be used. If they perfect fusion tomorrow, it will make no difference to the vehicle. Also, it lets your regeneratively brake, which for a lot of applications is the golden bullet. I figured roughly that about half the energy that I use on my commute through the city (30km round trip) is lost through the brakes.

Yes, sure, they are way 'behind' liquid fuels according to your metric of range, but just check out the tesla roadster and you'll see that they've got plenty of power. The range capabilities aren't as good, but for the VAST majority of people it would make stuff all difference. There are also ways to mitigate this (generator trailers or on-road wireless charging) for instance. Like I said before, they don't have to be equal or better, just good enough. Sure, it may require some people to change the way they use their vehicles until the technologies really start to 'catch up', but the other advantages (cheapness to buy once the economies of scale catch up and cheapness to run NOW, lack of maintenance) already outweight the supposed disadvantages for some people.

Sorry if this makes no sense, it's a bit of a brain dump...

[madbikeboy]

Interesting.

Also, something to consider - power grids have an issue - power storage. So, in the middle of the night, with lots of geothermal energy being produced, and the odd bit of hydro - there is essentially excess capacity. At 7 am and 6 pm, there are massive spikes in usage for residential (conversely, businesses use a fair bit of energy during the day).

So, if I can plug my elecky bike in to charge between midnight and 5am, it's actually reducing waste (since we can't effectively store it anyhow, right?).

[jono035]

Interesting.

Also, something to consider - power grids have an issue - power storage. So, in the middle of the night, with lots of geothermal energy being produced, and the odd bit of hydro - there is essentially excess capacity. At 7 am and 6 pm, there are massive spikes in usage for residential (conversely, businesses use a fair bit of energy during the day).

So, if I can plug my elecky bike in to charge between midnight and 5am, it's actually reducing waste (since we can't effectively store it anyhow, right?).

Yep. And with some of the research that the Uni is doing on smart-grid applications, the extra load from vehicle charging can actually be used to enhance grid stability in situations where lots of non-constant generation is used, such as wind and, to a certain extent, solar.

Basically if the power coming from a set of wind turbines drops by 50MW, then the grid can tell 50MW of chargers to stop charging until it comes back, then can bring them back up straight away if it comes back. If not then it could either cycle between who is charging at what time, or request that all chargers lower their load by a little bit. The research showed that this was surprisingly feasible, with response times of around 10 seconds or so required.

[davereid]

The technology hasn't changed in a larger sense of motors, batteries, controllers have always been around, but I'm actually involved in some of the research being done into electric vehicle technologies and there is much more going on around me and we have come so far in so many different ways that it is quite disingenious to say otherwise.

Batteries: Sure, some of the same old chemistries are still around, but even those are being constantly improved by new electrode materials and manufacturing technologies. Large scale lithium based chemistries are now moving things from the realm of impossible when I started looking at this stuff 10 years ago to merely difficult now. Also it isn't about matching an ICE based vehicle to start with, it is about being 'good enough', which the vehicles available now/soon are for a lot of people.

Lithium shortage: Myth. Lithium ion batteries have bugger all lithium in them anyway. For the older electrode types it was the cobolt that was the problem, and that isn't even used in the manganese spinel or iron phosphate electrodes any more. These problems also have a way of getting solved/mitigated as more people start using them and they actually BECOME a problem. No-one cares about it at the moment because the lithium supply is plentiful for the forseeable future.

You use 32% as an efficiency number for your engine, half that is a more realistic number for total average efficiency.

Sure, you have to generate the energy elsewhere, but using electric motors in a vehicle allows you to be completely independent of that, meaning nuclear (gasp!) or wind/solar or whatever can be used. If they perfect fusion tomorrow, it will make no difference to the vehicle. Also, it lets your regeneratively brake, which for a lot of applications is the golden bullet. I figured roughly that about half the energy that I use on my commute through the city (30km round trip) is lost through the brakes.

Yes, sure, they are way 'behind' liquid fuels according to your metric of range, but just check out the tesla roadster and you'll see that they've got plenty of power. The range capabilities aren't as good, but for the VAST majority of people it would make stuff all difference. There are also ways to mitigate this (generator trailers or on-road wireless charging) for instance. Like I said before, they don't have to be equal or better, just good enough. Sure, it may require some people to change the way they use their vehicles until the technologies really start to 'catch up', but the other advantages (cheapness to buy once the economies of scale catch up and cheapness to run NOW, lack of maintenance) already outweight the supposed disadvantages for some people.

Sorry if this makes no sense, it's a bit of a brain dump...

Yeah, for sure, as I commented there is a place for electric vehicles, just like there is a place for the push bike or the bus.

I just think that its wasted effort, its a blind alley being followed by some ver dedicated and intelligent people, but a blind alley nonetheless.

My figure for efficiency is actually low, not high. ICE engines can now achieve 50% efficiency. While my car may only reach 30% thermal efficiency in creating rotary motion, the heat is a useful feature, not just waste, and its not fair to compare it without allowing for the usefullness of the heat. Additionally, Peltier effect generators in the exhaust system will be a fact of life soon, generating the power for the vehicles electrics from exhaust heat.

I commented that there is, a shortage of lithium - and as I said it depends on what report you read.

The article you linked to makes the comment "the upper limit on most mineral resources is, for all practical purposes, unbounded".

That of course is crap, if it were so we never face an oil or coal shortage.

According to the USGS, world lithium resources stand at 13-14 million tons. We may discover recoverable resources of three times that. Maybe, giving us say 40 million tons.

How much do we need for a vehicle ? Lets assume that the worst tolerable car would carry the equivalent of 1 gallon, or say 5kg of petrol.

Thats about 230 MJ of energy, say 77 recoverable if I just let the heat go to waste. (Which I don't actually.) So I have, more or less 21.4 kw/hrs in my 1 gallon tank.

Your article says I need 1.4 kg of lithium to store 1 kw/hr.

My lithium battery will need to have 30kg of lithium to store the same energy.
So, 1 tonne of lithium will make batteries for 33 cars.

The USGS says known world reserves of lithium are 14 million tons.

So known world reserves will make batteries for 462 million cars - about half the number we currently have.

Of course, if we wanted those vehicles to have comparable performance to modern liquid fuels then we would have to carry 10x the fuel, or even more if we lived in a cold climate and wanted a heater.

At best we could make 46 million cars. About 7 months production.

[davereid]

Basically if the power coming from a set of wind turbines drops by 50MW, then the grid can tell 50MW of chargers to stop charging until it comes back, then can bring them back up straight away if it comes back. If not then it could either cycle between who is charging at what time, or request that all chargers lower their load by a little bit. The research showed that this was surprisingly feasible, with response times of around 10 seconds or so required.

We did this years ago, right here in good old N.Z. but not for the same reason. We had a system called FRED, Fast Reacting Emergency Dump.

FRED watched system stability, particularly frequency. If it got too low, FRED would switch off big loads, all over the country to help stabilise frequency. FRED generally picked on loads that don't mind being turned off, like coolstores etc that have lots of thermal lag.

For all I know FRED may still be running.

[bogan]

Yeah, for sure, as I commented there is a place for electric vehicles, just like there is a place for the push bike or the bus.

I just think that its wasted effort, its a blind alley being followed by some ver dedicated and intelligent people, but a blind alley nonetheless.

My figure for efficiency is actually low, not high. ICE engines can now achieve 50% efficiency. While my car may only reach 30% thermal efficiency in creating rotary motion, the heat is a useful feature, not just waste, and its not fair to compare it without allowing for the usefullness of the heat. Additionally, Peltier effect generators in the exhaust system will be a fact of life soon, generating the power for the vehicles electrics from exhaust heat.

Internal combustion engines have had a massive head start on electric vehicles, with the huge amount of battery research being done I would be surprised if battery capacity doesn't continue to increase. Overall car efficiency is significantly less than 30%, the peak is maybe up there for some models but cars dont run at optimum conditions, and the heat isn't a useful feature yet, for half the year a very small percentage is used to heat the occupants but the majority of energy is wasted, and electrics can have heaters too ya know.

[jono035]

We did this years ago, right here in good old N.Z. but not for the same reason. We had a system called FRED, Fast Reacting Emergency Dump.

FRED watched system stability, particularly frequency. If it got too low, FRED would switch off big loads, all over the country to help stabilise frequency. FRED generally picked on loads that don't mind being turned off, like coolstores etc that have lots of thermal lag.

For all I know FRED may still be running.

Yeah, but this is on a generic-load consumer level scale.

And as for the lithium - demand has a healthy habit of providing options. As with everything (oil reserves and such) as they start to run out, people start looking for more.

[MarkH]

Still not sure i'D sit on those batterys..... if the go bang..they"ll really go bang.

I'd say that LiFePO4 cells would be safer than a tank full of petrol. It is the LiCo cells that have a tendency to 'vent with flame' if anything goes wrong.