Wellington Parking - They are about to clamp down on bike parking

[Lurch]

A nice idea on the face of it, but how many bike riders actually come to town to run an errand, rather than park there all day?

This is a very good point to discuss, I really doubt that very many motorcyclists in Wgn are there for a "quick trip to the shops". If I'm going shopping I almost always take the car.

[Nasty]

There is of course the option of parking in the buildings that we work in ... lots of us do that anyway .. but it saves on even a small work. One of the options that I proposed informally to Council was that if they encouraged other building owners to allow bikes to park in the unused spaces then that would be a good idea. Unfortunately they would need to lead the way .. and there is not a lot of free space to use in the council parking areas.

Jon makes some good points ... about some valid issues ... those who ride and park in Wellington know that there are some issues, even worse for those who park in Boulcott Street where the only parking is on the footpath ...

In all of the buildings I have worked in Wellington I have managed to negotiate the ability to park in them ... sometimes it is about making a move to propose that sort of thing .. and normally they don't charge for the convience of it.

[Jon Visser]

Hi all,

I will try to respond to as many questions as possible. Some questions may cover the same ground so please do not be offended if I do not respond directly but check my postings for a relevant answer.

Badjelly wrote:
"Another thing that strikes me is that there are still quite a few odd little spots here & there (eg. triangular spaces at the either end of a row of diagonal parks) where it would be perfectly safe and considerate to park the bike, but it's illegal. So I think the council could still try a little harder to find bike parking spots."
Response: Agreed - though it should be the Council's traffic engineers that determine (and mark) such appropriate places and not riders. Many riders are now parking in the triangular spaces at the ends of parallel parks, but do not realise that when we install parallel parks we typically allow for 6 metres for the parks in the middle and only 5 metres for the parks at the ends, so those spaces are vital for cars to be able to get in & out. Parking motorbikes in there will eventually result in bikes getting knocked over.

Ixion wrote:
"Hang about. If there are 500 more motorcyclist coming into the city, odds are that each of those 500 used to drive in by car. So that's 500 fewer cars coming in, effectively the provision for car parking has increased at the expense of motorcyclists. Since one car space can hold about four bikes spaces, fairness would indicate that about 125 car park spaces should be converted to bike parks."
Response: good try, but these commuters all came out of off-road spaces, not on-road ones (we have 2-hour limits on CBD on-road car parks). By commuters shifting from car to motorcycle, they have freed up spaces in parking buildings, not on the road. We do not have the space available _on the public road_ to accommodate the current and future number of motorcycles. That is exactly why we are encouraging them to go back to parking off-road so that occasional visitors (like Badjelly :-) have somewhere to park. Commuters that switch from car to motorcycle will still be saving themselves a lot of money for parking compared to what they were paying for when using a car.

Ixion wrote:
"There are differences. Firstly, security. Motorcyclists need/want their bikes to be parked either where they can keep an eye on them OR in a secure place. Otherwise bike thefts go through the roof."
Response: How are the security concerns of motorcycle riders any different to those of car or bicycle users? No-one wants their vehicle stolen. Parking garages provide much greater security than on-road parks, as well as typically having cameras that can be used to identify and track down offenders. Also cars and pedestrians are much more likely to knock over inappropriately parked motorcycles on the public road than in a parking garage. Parking garages could even be asked (if lobbied by people such as yourself) to provide steel security loops set into the floor that you can attach locks to etc.

Ixion wrote:
"Secondly, a motorcyclist arriving in the city, hopefully is wearing decent protective clothing. Which is heavy, hot, and most definitely not designed for walking long distances in...If WCC motorcycle parking strategy relies on parking facilities remote from the journey endpoint then they need to provide secure storage (eg lockers)."
Response: Very good point. Again something that you could more successfully lobby a parking garage to provide than for on-road spaces. Council does have some public shower facilities available at the end of Featherston Street (possibly why Grey Street is so popular? Though I note that the motorcycle bay adjacent to the Old Bank Arcade frequently has some empty spaces).

Ixion wrote:
"Motorcycles represent almost the ONLY solution to city congestion."
Response: As you say, "almost". Public transport represents a much more sustainable and environmentally friendly solution that is also cheaper to society (if not to the individual) when taking into consideration the wider costs of the hugely increased number of accidents that motorcycle riders have. It is therefore no secret that the Council has far greater support for people shifting to public transport than motorcycles under the current environment. While the number of motorcycle riders entering the CBD has doubled over the past few years, the number of serious accidents they are having has considerably more than doubled. This may be due to the commuters typically being new to riding motorcycles, doing so during peak hours, and not even needing to have a motorcycle licence or registered vehicle (for 50cc scooters) etc. While we understand the benefits a motorbike presents to an individual (and the limitations of public transport), from a planning perspective we must support what is best for the majority community and therefore we are asking all motorcycle riders to exhibit the same level of individual responsibility for their actions that the serious and experienced bike riders do. In that regard, motorcycle riders have just as much responsibility as car or truck drivers to behave according to the road rules, which includes parking.

davebullet wrote:
"Does the council have a target number of free parks to support riders that come and go?"
Response: A general guideline for on-road parking spaces (in the absence of more accurate statistics) is that about 85% of the spaces should be "vacant" for them to operate effectively. In order to be able to determine the quantity and types of on-road parking spaces required and how we manage them, we are going to consult with riders on the street to identify their specific habits and needs. Again, I will post a URL for this consultation on this forum so that others can also provide submissions (though only relevant to Wellington City riders of course).

davebullet wrote:
"Is the council going to provide guidelines as to what off-street parking will be tolerated (eg. on the footpath?). I know bikes are not meant to obstruct pedestrians, however, some footpaths are wide and can accommodate a row of bikes and still allow 2 pedestrians to pass eachother easily."
Response: Council has a Footpath Management Policy (updated 2007) which describes the appropriate use of footpath space.
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/plans/.../footpath.html
The problem is not so much the amount of room that motorcycles take up, but that they create effectively a permanent obstruction that causes problems specifically for:
- people with sight impairment (who rely on a consistent streetscape to be able to get around safely).
- maintenance contractors (who need to access the footpath and cannot do so if there are bikes blocking the road and they cannot reasonably be expected to place "no parking" signs on every single footpath on the off-chance that someone will park illegally there).
- emergency service and road managers (such as me) who are sometimes required to clear a footpath to allow another activity like a parade, protest or emergency to take place.
- building owners who complain to the Council that their entraceways and fire sprinkler system access panels etc are being blocked.
With all of the activities typically allowed on the footpath under our policy (e.g. sandwich boards, seating, retail displays etc) they are very temporary in nature and the person responsible is always very close by so the obstructions can be immediately shifted by the person responsible. Riders cannot be easily contacted or expected to immediately shift their bike for the above situations. It is also very difficult to tow motorcycles (and I don't want to have to do that). Therefore we will continue to use discretion where warranted (e.g. in the suburbs where the principles of the footpath management policy can be met) but we will need to be quite strict in the CBD to meet public expectations.

davebullet wrote:
"After the marketing campaign, how will warning notices be served. Having never received a ticket on the bike and with Wellington weather, I might not know I have been served."
Response: We typically attach notices (e.g. leaflets & infringement notices) to motorcycles by wrapping them around the handlebars and securing them with a rubber band. This would be quite noticeable to riders as they must grab their accelerator in order to operate the bike. If an infringement notice gets removed by someone else the registered owner of the bike will be posted a reminder notice in the mail before any further action is taken. For this campaign, we will first issue information leaflets, then issue $0 infringement notices, and only those who have already been issued with a $0 notice will then be issued with an actual fine. We will not start issuign infringement notices for a month so that riders have a reasonable opportunity to locate an alternative (and proper) parking space.

davebullet wrote:
"How will the council monitor "day stayers" and decide on what is a reasonable parking timeframe? (chalk mark on the tyres then after XX minutes a ticket?)"
At this time there are no fees or time restrictions for on-road motorcycle parking bays, so there is no need to monitor or enforce in that regard. We are only concerned at this stage with people who park outside the designated motorcycle parking bays. As stated above, further reviews (after the current campaign has run its course) will clarify whether we should be introducing any restrictions (time or fees), but I think it would be fair to say that it would be good for both the Council and the riders if this could be avoided (e.g. by enough people voluntarily shifting from on-road to off-road parks).

[Lurch]

Public transport represents a much more sustainable and environmentally friendly solution that is also cheaper to society (if not to the individual) when taking into consideration the wider costs of the hugely increased number of accidents that motorcycle riders have. It is therefore no secret that the Council has far greater support for people shifting to public transport than motorcycles under the current environment.

Lets maybe revist the public transport option in around 2 years once there is a train network to speak of. Although by then the charges will probably be higher than the cost of running a car and paying for a car park. (they aren't far off it at the moment and the car is both quicker and more reliable)

[Ixion]

Well, I don't live in Wellington. So this isn't my debate

But what I think I'm hearing you say here

"Bugger. We went all out to be as bloody minded as possible to car drivers, so as to force them onto to public transport, despite its vileness. But, lo, the contrary sods are coming in on motorcycles instead. So we're going to have to turn the clobbering machine on motorcycles also. Once there are no other transport options available , they'll *have* to use public transport whether they want to or not , which is the only way we'll ever force people to use it"

[Lurch]

Ixion, it certainly does feel like WCC is getting desperate for ways to force people into a public transport network that isn't fit for purpose.

[Trudes]

Lets have a Citizen's Initiated Referendum:
"Should Politicians and Government Department Ministers be forced to use public transport for one month so they can sympathise with the plebs?"

[Lurch]

"Should a motorcycle park, as part of good council services be considered a luxury in New Zealand?

[Devil]

Wellingtons parking doesn't really concern me directly, but thank you Jon for taking the time to explain clearly your position, and for speaking directly with those affected.

Ps: Dont mind that Ixion fulla, he's a grumpy old bugger... But also related to BRONZ...

[Jon Visser]

Ixion, it certainly does feel like WCC is getting desperate for ways to force people into a public transport network that isn't fit for purpose.

I think a much more important message to take from what I have written is that the Council would rather see a reduction in the number of motorcycle riders getting hurt or hurting/affecting others.

[bogan]

I think a much more important message to take from what I have written is that the Council would rather see a reduction in the number of motorcycle riders getting hurt or hurting/affecting others.

So you admit there is an alternate agenda of getting motorcyclists of the roads?

[Jon Visser]

So you admit there is an alternate agenda of getting motorcyclists of the roads?

If there were 80,000 commuters coming into town on motorcycles instead of cars, parked legally and none of them got hurt, I would be ecstatic :-)

[Lurch]

So where do you park your bike during the day Jon? Just out of curiosity?

[Ixion]

If there were 80,000 commuters coming into town on motorcycles instead of cars, parked legally and none of them got hurt, I would be ecstatic :-)

But you have previously said that none of the motorcycles coming into town are replacing cars ; and that WCC policy is that there will not be parking available for 80000 motorcycles (or even 1000 come to that)

the Council would rather see a reduction in the number of motorcycle riders getting hurt or hurting/affecting others.

The only interpretation I can put on that is that Council considers that increased numbers of motorcyclists is a BadThing because "they will hurt themselves" , so Council should force them onto public transport instead. Patronising nanny state or what?

[Ixion]

Ps: Dont mind that Ixion fulla, he's a grumpy old bugger... But also related to BRONZ...

Moi ? Grumpy? never. Like my avatar says, just a sweet gentle innocent old man.