Wellington Parking - They are about to clamp down on bike parking

[b1kerb0b]

Ixion wrote:
"Motorcycles represent almost the ONLY solution to city congestion."
Response: As you say, "almost". Public transport represents a much more sustainable and environmentally friendly solution that is also cheaper to society (if not to the individual) when taking into consideration the wider costs of the hugely increased number of accidents that motorcycle riders have. It is therefore no secret that the Council has far greater support for people shifting to public transport than motorcycles under the current environment. While the number of motorcycle riders entering the CBD has doubled over the past few years, the number of serious accidents they are having has considerably more than doubled. This may be due to the commuters typically being new to riding motorcycles, doing so during peak hours, and not even needing to have a motorcycle licence or registered vehicle (for 50cc scooters) etc. While we understand the benefits a motorbike presents to an individual (and the limitations of public transport), from a planning perspective we must support what is best for the majority community and therefore we are asking all motorcycle riders to exhibit the same level of individual responsibility for their actions that the serious and experienced bike riders do. In that regard, motorcycle riders have just as much responsibility as car or truck drivers to behave according to the road rules, which includes parking.

I think that's pretty weak Jon... from Miramar it costs $8 a day to commute via bus, and the congestion is awful. During winter especially I was sick a lot when bussing, as soon as I started riding again, even in the depths of cold wet winter, I wasn't getting sick all the time. Logical conclusion? The bus was detrimental to my health, and I am not exaggerating.

So, $8 a day vs at most $2 in fuel? Hmmmm...

Now, quite honestly I'd love it if the parking buildings accepted motorbikes & scooters, but the attitude from them has been appalling. I tried to negotiate a deal with them for some of my friends and i got a) laughed at and b) got quoted THE SAME as a car and c) got told they would allocate the top corner of the roof, uncovered, that was unusable by cars. What a joke.

So cat amongst the pigeons time: do the motorbike parking right... allow a certain number of FREE bike park areas, and create some areas on the street that are "permit" spaces - in order to park there you must have a WCC parking permit. Make it a small payment per month, you a) relieve the "free" parking congestion issues because you're giving an alternative riders are MORE likely to trust, and b) you get some income return therefore make it more likely it is economically feasible for the council to convert some car spaces to bike parks.

We don't all ride because we are freetards and don't want to pay. Often it's because we can't see the sense in 1 person commute in a car, or hate sub-standard stinky cattle-class public transport, or maybe it's lifestyle. IMHO if someone has a $20,000 bike they can afford to pay a few bucks a month for a park but they also don't trust putting their bike in a dingy dark corner of a dogey parking building.

my 2c

[b1kerb0b]

If there were 80,000 commuters coming into town on motorcycles instead of cars, parked legally and none of them got hurt, I would be ecstatic :-)

The interesting thing is that almost all of the scooters coming into the bike shops for accident repair are the fault of cars... Hmmmm

[Jon Visser]

Also, I recall an article in the paper the other day that mentioned the recession had slowed down large developments on the Wellington waterfront. Why not use some of that space as a temporary solution until a longer term plan could be formulated?

And also in response to the earlier post suggesting green spaces along the waterfront: Please note that the waterfront is all private property (owned and managed by Wellington Waterfront Limited). The Council is trying to negotiate the use of such space (whether for motorbikes or campervans) in the interests of the public good, but it is up to WWL how they allow the land to be used. So far they have accommodated parking but only on a commercial basis (they need to get a return on their asset just like all other private companies) so this is effectively already covered by our suggestion for commuters to use commercial or private space (with the property owner's consent of course).

[Clockwork]

And also in response to the earlier post suggesting green spaces along the waterfront: Please note that the waterfront is all private property (owned and managed by Wellington Waterfront Limited). The Council is trying to negotiate the use of such space (whether for motorbikes or campervans) in the interests of the public good, but it is up to WWL how they allow the land to be used. So far they have accommodated parking but only on a commercial basis (they need to get a return on their asset just like all other private companies) so this is effectively already covered by our suggestion for commuters to use commercial or private space (with the property owner's consent of course).

http://www.wellington.govt.nz/haveyo...Waterfront.pdf

"1. The Wellington Warterfront Framework
Wellington Waterfront Limited is a Council Controlled Organisation....."

Please stop pissing us about Jon, are you here to help us find a solution or are you here as some sort of PR exercise that is about to fail spectacularly!

I'd still quite like a response to my post #118

[Jon Visser]

Jon, you claim 150 extra spaces have been provided for motorcycles recently, can you supply details of when and where.

A map is located here:
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/servic...le-parking.pdf
This will be updated soon when the info pamphlets are ready - these will include slightly clearer maps. The 13 parks at the end of the list (from 34 to 46) are the new ones that we have created over the past year. These provide an additional 100 (not 150) spaces.

The other thing I noticed on my return to work was the number of places where bikes could easily be accomdated with no loss of revenue. At the other end of Balance St, behind there Shell service station there is the most enourmous loading zone, large enought to accomdate two large trucks, lord only know what businesses in the vacinity would need deliveries that large (and all to be completed within 5 mins according to the signage). In any case half of that could be made over to Bikes, that would accomdate 15 easily.

I will have a look at that area as a possibility. This is indeed for parking large trucks in, though the P5 restriction appears a bit strange and I would like to know a bit more about when trucks or smaller service vehicles typically use this space (note that there are very few loading zones along Featherston Street as we try to keep that sort of activity off the main arterial roads). If it turns out that the large trucks only use this loading zone at night (when the P5 time restriction may not apply) then maybe we could have "shared" spaces, i.e. motorcycles during the day and loading zone at night.

At the Customhouse Quay end of Johnston St you could easily fit 10-15 bikes on a stretch of road that currently has no parking allowed. This is a two lane one-way street with more than enough space for traffic turning both ways at the lights so its hard to see any rational reason that parking has been prohibited in this area but it could easily accomdate bikes, again with no loss of revenue.

"No parking" areas (broken yellow lines) are only placed for specific reasons, usually associated with safety, sight lines, access (e.g. for emergency vehicles etc). Given the extremely limited space that we have for parking in the city, we are very reluctant to use such a tool where this is not neccesary. Unless something changes (e.g. the street layout or the usage of the adjacent building etc) it is very unlikely that areas marked with broken yellow lines will be made appropriate for motorcycle parking (where they have been put in for safety/access). However, I am aware of a number of locations where they have been put in to create clear sight lines (typically to allow traffic to see pedestrians and vice versa) and while parkign a truck or a van at that location could create a visual obstruction, parking motorcycles may not. The no parking space at that end of Johnston Street exists because the left lane has the ability to turn left or right. Left-turning vehicles may be held up by pedestrians on the crossing, so the clear space has been provided for them to move over and wait while letting the right-turning traffic past so that they are not unreasonably held up. This effectively creates two lanes although technically the road is not wide enough to mark three lanes (one for left-turners and and two for right-turners).

At the intersection of Customhouse Quay and Jervois Quay a large flush median (which is largley ignored) was marked up to "Square off" the intersection. I believe you could easily accomdate 30+ bikes in this area (with the added benefit that traffic would now have to obey the road markings when crossing the intersection)

The white hatched section of the carriageway exists to allow traffic exiting Customhouse Quay to get up to speed before merging with the much faster left hand lane of Jervois Quay - especially in peak commuter hours this area is used for the two lines of traffic to merge "like a zip". The white lines are allowed to be driven on. The sharper turn lines with a give way and hold bar are for traffic wanting to cross all three lanes of Jervois Quay (almost perpendicularly) in order to get into the right-hand lane to turn right at the next set of signals. These need to wait for a much bigger gap in the traffic.

How many bikes could be accomdated on Post Office square behind the "French Kiss" Coffee vending caravan? As the caravan and its furniture are obviously causing no inconvenience to pedestrians the bikes would neither AND they'd largley be hidden behind that mobile billboard that is frequently parked there that the pedestrians also seem to be able to walk safely around.

I thought this was a great idea and I have already proposed this as a possibility. The proposal was rejected on the basis that this is a pedestrian space intended to be used for people to gather and rest well away from the bustle of the inner city streets or after having crossed the Quays (i.e. for families with children, part of the city-to-sea linkage). It is really a "park" even though it is paved. There were also safety concerns with bikes needing to cross potentially busy pedestrian spaces (e.g. the pedestrian crossing from Queens Wharf) or entering traffic on the busy Quays unexpectedly. Bikes would likely use pedestrian ramps rather then the kerbs. We are much more in favour of finding spaces that adjoin the road so that bikes can be parked safely without needing to cross pedestrian paths. I will therefore have a look at the Custom House Quay side of Post Office Square which is much quieter, adjoins the road, is not greatly utilised and already has some obstructions like trees along it.

[Jon Visser]

Wellington Waterfront Limited is a Council Controlled Organisation.....

CCOs are not under the control of council officers, but they have a board of directors (answerable to the Councillors) and their own management structure. Some are even part-owned by other organisations. I can assure you that the waterfront space is entirely out of our WCC officer control and we have no ability to manage their land for parking etc. One day that control may come back to us, and then I would be happy to look at how usage of that space can be optimised.

[Jon Visser]

Now, quite honestly I'd love it if the parking buildings accepted motorbikes & scooters, but the attitude from them has been appalling. I tried to negotiate a deal with them for some of my friends and i got a) laughed at and b) got quoted THE SAME as a car and c) got told they would allocate the top corner of the roof, uncovered, that was unusable by cars. What a joke.

So cat amongst the pigeons time: do the motorbike parking right... allow a certain number of FREE bike park areas, and create some areas on the street that are "permit" spaces - in order to park there you must have a WCC parking permit. Make it a small payment per month, you a) relieve the "free" parking congestion issues because you're giving an alternative riders are MORE likely to trust, and b) you get some income return therefore make it more likely it is economically feasible for the council to convert some car spaces to bike parks.

I'm sure that a lot of other riders will probably disagree with the proposal to introduce fees for on-road motorcycle parking. Also, while riders do purchase things from time to time, they are in no way comparable to the very high turnover of car parking for commercial/retail activities (i.e. the two activities do not compete or replace each other).

Our current campaign has been to (successfully) lobby parking garage operators to provide riders with access to very high quality parking spaces at much reduced rates, and then to encourage riders to take up that option (through media and pamphlet drops - these will come out soon). As a large group of customers (rather than as individuals) riders will be able to lobby these garages to provide even better services and price competition over time. That appears to address the concerns you have raised.

[davebullet]

Those trains, and at least half the aging Diesel busses- would be ordered off the road if anyone other than Govt bodies owned the death traps

Private companies are profit margin driven, therefore I think the opposite would occur. You'd end up with older buses as the private company milks as much capital value out of them as it can

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm sure that a lot of other riders will probably disagree with the proposal to introduce fees for on-road motorcycle parking. Also, while riders do purchase things from time to time, they are in no way comparable to the very high turnover of car parking for commercial/retail activities (i.e. the two activities do not compete or replace each other).

Our current campaign has been to.....

enable the WCC to make as much money as possible...

Let's be honest Jon. This is about revenue not actually what is best for the people....

[DougieNZ]

Intersting this debate...

Big ups to Jon for coming on here and putting the WCC perspective.

I am a little interested as to why we as motorcyclists think that we can demand:

- free motorcycle parks
- To park illegally on footpaths

Imagine if all parking was made free in the CBD! There would never be any parks available for those visiting the city. Provided free or reduced price secure car parks were provided for motorcyclists in parking buildings, then I see no problem with charging for the street parks. Why should we demand any more than other road users?

The parking on footpaths in undoubtedly a hazard and is clearly illegal. So why should we think we can get away with it? What about he disabled people that can't go about their business or injure themselves by tripping over illegally parked motorcyles? What about their rights?

[magicmonkey]

Intersting this debate...

Big ups to Jon for coming on here and putting the WCC perspective.

I am a little interested as to why we as motorcyclists think that we can demand:

- Unlimited free car parks
- To park illegally on footpaths

Imagine if all parking was made free in the CBD! There would never be any parks available for those visiting the city. Provided free or reduced price secure car parks were provided for motorcyclists in parking buildings, then I see no problem with charging for the street parks. Why should we demaind any more than other road users?

The parking on footpaths in undoubtedly a hazard and is clearly illegal. So why should we think we can get away with it?

well, for one there's precedent for free parking for bikes, then there's congestion, space and emissions, to name a few.

The request from most people has been to allow legal parking on specific pieces of pavement so as to not cause a hazard or run foul of the law rather than to a bunch of bikers ranting about wanting to park in the most hazardous place possible and get away with it...

To start with Jon's input was pretty valuable, until it became clear that he was here to tell everyone why they weren't going to do things rather than listen and try to pick things up, that's my people have been making sensible suggestions

[Clockwork]

First of all, Jon. Thank you for replying to my post and answering my question about the new bike park locations. I won't let your reply go entirely unchallenged though.

CCOs are not under the control of council officers, but they have a board of directors (answerable to the Councillors) and their own management structure. Some are even part-owned by other organisations. I can assure you that the waterfront space is entirely out of our WCC officer control and we have no ability to manage their land for parking etc. One day that control may come back to us, and then I would be happy to look at how usage of that space can be optimised.

You choose your words carefully but as a WCC Officer you are presumably doing the bidding of the Council; and who is the limited part of Wellington Waterfront Limited?. The Council. The fact is that is that motorcycle parking on the waterfront could be arranged more easily than arranging for paid parking with the likes of WWL's tenants (Wilson Parking). My guess is only political will stands in the way.

I note too that informal bike and scooter parking outside TSB Arena has recently been moved on, so if that act has caused more bikes on the streets and footpaths we know who to thank. Who would have moved them on Jon?

The white hatched section of the carriageway exists to allow traffic exiting Customhouse Quay to get up to speed before merging with the much faster left hand lane of Jervois Quay - especially in peak commuter hours this area is used for the two lines of traffic to merge "like a zip". The white lines are allowed to be driven on. The sharper turn lines with a give way and hold bar are for traffic wanting to cross all three lanes of Jervois Quay (almost perpendicularly) in order to get into the right-hand lane to turn right at the next set of signals. These need to wait for a much bigger gap in the traffic.

This one won't wash, Jon. First of all this intersection is not marked for merging traffic is is a Give Way and anyone foolhardy enough to try and accelerate and merge through that intersection runs the very real risk if steaming into the back of cars waiting to turn left into Brandon St

I thought this was a great idea and I have already proposed this as a possibility. The proposal was rejected on the basis that this is a pedestrian space intended to be used for people to gather and rest well away from the bustle of the inner city streets or after having crossed the Quays (i.e. for families with children, part of the city-to-sea linkage). It is really a "park" even though it is paved. There were also safety concerns with bikes needing to cross potentially busy pedestrian spaces (e.g. the pedestrian crossing from Queens Wharf) or entering traffic on the busy Quays unexpectedly. Bikes would likely use pedestrian ramps rather then the kerbs. We are much more in favour of finding spaces that adjoin the road so that bikes can be parked safely without needing to cross pedestrian paths. I will therefore have a look at the Custom House Quay side of Post Office Square which is much quieter, adjoins the road, is not greatly utilised and already has some obstructions like trees along it.

Great if you really are going to relook at the use of this space although my suggestion would be lot cheaper than trying to fit bike parks on the Customhouse Quay side. The suggestion that the area is "...to be used for people to gather and rest well away from the bustle of the inner city streets..." Have you stood near Jervois Quay lately? Surely Queen's Warf would make a better resting place.

And finally, whoever made this objection "There were also safety concerns with bikes needing to cross potentially busy pedestrian spaces" obviously hasn't heard of the Council's plans for buses on Manners St. If these sorts of objections are going to be taken seriously then again I have to question how serious were the attempts to resolve this problem.

While I have your attention, check out the intersection of Hunter & Victoria Sts or at the end of any line of angle parks. There are plenty of places where Bikes & Scooters could park if the old yellow paint wasn't splattered around quite so liberally.

[StoneY]

Our current campaign has been to (successfully) lobby parking garage operators to provide riders with access to very high quality parking spaces at much reduced rates, and then to encourage riders to take up that option (through media and pamphlet drops - these will come out soon). As a large group of customers (rather than as individuals) riders will be able to lobby these garages to provide even better services and price competition over time. That appears to address the concerns you have raised.

John,

I have just rang EVERY major parking building in Wellington.
None even know of any council approach, your name, or that Bikers are being pointed at them-

Please provide the parking companies you have SUCCESSFULLY negotiated with

I was quoted CAR prices for a space beside a lift shaft- a wet, cold, slimy spot under the Lombard (not even in the building) where my bike would be either rotted out with corrosion or stolen/vandalised by glue sniffers - thanks Wilson Parking, very farkin generous

They had never heard of this lobbying- nor have they even a motorcycle rate in ANY of thier buildings - wanna park there its CAR rates end of story-

I for one would happily pay for a DRY, SECURE, leased space for my bike at say 40$ per month based the 200$ per month I used to pay for a Gilmer Tce spot from the Council

And again- why should we the motorcyclist be penalised for lack of council management?
I say it again I AM A RATEPAYER- treat me with the respect I am due because I pay YOUR salary pal

[StoneY]

Private companies are profit margin driven, therefore I think the opposite would occur. You'd end up with older buses as the private company milks as much capital value out of them as it can

Dude- Mana Coaches-
Private firm- busses much MUCH cleaner and in better shape than MOST of the busses I see on CBD routes-
I rest my case

[Ixion]

I'm sure that a lot of other riders will probably disagree with the proposal to introduce fees for on-road motorcycle parking. Also, while riders do purchase things from time to time, they are in no way comparable to the very high turnover of car parking for commercial/retail activities (i.e. the two activities do not compete or replace each other).

...

Hang about , hang about. What's that mean? The total number of cars is more than bikes so the total take is greater, of course. But, per head, a bike rider is going to spend just as much at shops as a car driver. Probably more. Bikers are a very attractive commercial demographic. High discretionary income (we can afford those money pits called bikes, for a start), and very easy to deal with (no kids hanging on, no buying one cup of tea for the whole afternoon).

I, like all riders, do indeed "Purchase things from time to time". Do you imagine that bikers are ascetics who buy a single sack of bean sprouts and a roll of haircloth a year? We have to eat like other people, y'know. And drink. We need clothes. Phones. Cameras. Computers. Stereos .Holidays. And all the other delights of a consumer society.

That has to be one of the downright silliest statements I've ever read.

I think you are basing your campaign on some very limited and incorrect assumptions about the nature of the biker demographic. You need to do a LOT more research.