Road rules

[NDORFN]

a very interesting idea, I can beleive it would decrease accidents. I also see congestion issues though, as epople mat get overcourteous without directions, I would be interested to know what sort of traffic volumes this system has been implemented with.

You only get congestion in Auckland, which has a population of around a quarter of the population and they aren't even trying at mass-transit so fuck them, majority rules. The rest of the country deserves this!

[swbarnett]

How will the guarantee of no enforcement (i.e. no possibility of a ticket) make it more likely that people will behave like humans?

Humans are programmed to think for themselves. It's an evolutionary imperitave that brought the human brain to where it is today i.e. only those that could think well enough survived.

We also seem to be programmed to react badly when told to do something. We think we know better. This results in a rebellion against authority, expecially when it's blatantly obvious (to the individual) that the authority has it wrong. I know for myself that every time I see one of those dumb anti-speed ads I just want to hit the road and open the throttle.

But going to the idea; what happens if you are a monkey, you hit someone, and you're uninsured?

For one thing you'll have fewer monkeys.

My The laughably short probationary period (particularly for cars), combined with a scratch test that wouldn't tax the abilities of a mildly retarded chimp, is one of the main issues on our roads.

Of course this is an issue in NZ that needs to be addressed at the same time. This is, though, a separate issue. Even without better training you'll get better drivers just by trusting people to handle the task.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit. I see it failing for two reasons:

1 - Big revenue drop for the Gummint.
2 - The laws have to cater for the lowest common denominator.

1 - I don't know the figures but the commenserate reduction in ACC and enforcement costs might just balance this out.
2 - If you treat people with respect for their inteligence (even if they don't have a lot) the lowest common denominator will rise.



On a more general note:

When I lived in Switzerland I observed some of the best driving that I've seen anywhere. Although the laws were pretty strict it was well known that the enforcement was very light (I think I saw maybe two police cars in the whole two years I was there). Drivers were just left to their own devices. The road code even said that if the law didn't fit the particular circumstances you found yourself in then you should work it out for yourself. One reason this worked is that the public transport system was so good that those that didn't want to drive didn't have to.

In NZ the problem as I see it is twofold:

1. Our public transport is so bad that most people are forced to drive themselves, even those that, given the choice, would rather not because they don't really have the aptitude for it.
2. We treat everybody like morons. This only produces more morons. We need to reduce the number of road laws and empower people instead.

[Dare]

In Finland, the car driver's training can be obtained either in a private driving school or given by a near relative who has a driver's licence. If the person is trained by a relative, the relative must obtain a special instructor's permit and have a car fitted and inspected with an extra set of brake pedals for the front passenger. The training for B class licence requires 30 hours of instructed driving, including a spell on a slippery driving course, and 20 theory lessons. After this, the person must pass a computerized theory test and a driving test in city traffic with a minimum length of 30 minutes. C class training is similar, but longer.

The initial license is issued for two years. During this time, the new driver may receive a maximum of two traffic fines in total. If the number of fines is exceeded, the license is revoked and the driver is required to re-take the exam. Even with one fine, the interim period may be extended for a maximum of two years. During the interim period, the new driver must pass a short refresher course, which includes a slippery driving course, and participate in dark time driving training, unless this was part of the initial training. (Finnish lighting conditions prevent the dark time training during summer.)

The motorcycles are divided in three categories. Anyone born before 1985 may drive a moped. Persons born in 1985 or after may obtain a moped driver's licence at the age of 15. This requires passing a simple computerized theory exam. The A1 licence, allowing the use of light motorbikes, may be obtained at the age of 16. The practical training is done independently in traffic after a training permit has been obtained from the police. Theoretical training includes 12 theory lessons. A person who has A1 licence can get a full A license after holding the A1 for two years. After the age of 21, a person can obtain the A licence directly, without holding an A1 licence first.

Sounds complicated, but Finland apparently produces some of the best drivers. Who's keen for this system?

2 - If you treat people with respect for their inteligence (even if they don't have a lot) the lowest common denominator will rise.

How exactly do you respect a drivers intelligence? Make the signs with more eloquent english? 'Halt thy progress!'
On the Auckland bridge I see people go through those double red x signs when they are trying to do road works on the clip-ons, one has to assume this is some sort of wilful rejection of the system because the signs are so blatantly obvious as to their intent and very hard to miss.

[Maki]

Last weekend i watched several vehicles overtake others around blind bends, as luck would have it another wasnt also coming around the corner. Could we drive responsibly if left to it? Hell no (We have far too shocking an attitude towards driving for that)

Makes you wonder what the hell cops are doing. Anyone who is caught doing that should be punished severely.

Oh, of course the cops don't have time to crack down on behaviour that actually does cause death and destruction on a regular basis. They are too busy collecting $ off people who overtake safely in designated overtaking areas and momentarily reach speeds in excess of 110kmh.

Makes me furious to know that my tax $ are not making the roads any safer and the cops waste their time harrassing people who are not creating any danger.

And regaring the topic of this post. Great idea, yes please but come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who genuinely endangers the safety of other road users.

[swbarnett]

How exactly do you respect a drivers intelligence?

It's an attitude thing. Currently roads and laws are being designed with the intention of making driving idiot proof i.e the designers believe that a large percentage of the drivers are idiots. This leads to two undesireable outcomes:
1. Because the brain is not required to drive under most normal circumstances it's not used. When things go wrong the average driver can't react as inteligently as they should as a result.
2. You get people like me who get pissed off when in order to obey the law you have to defy logic. For example, when you see yellow lines in places that are obviously safe to overtake. As a result you're more likely to ignore ALL yellow lines and end up overtaking in silly places.

If, on the other hand, roads and laws are designed with the attitude that most drivers can think for themselves then:
1. The average driver will have a higher level of brain engagement and therefore handle pear-shaped situations better.
2. The law will engender more respect resulting in fewer drivers rebelling.

What about the small percentage of driver that will always be a problem? The ones that are genuinely idiots? Well, for one thing, treat all drivers as if they have a brain and the number of genuine idiots will fall dramatically. Bolster the public transport system and those that are left will more than likely opt not to drive because they never really wanted to in the first place.

[red675]

Can you imagine the large intersections (5 different roads) being uncontrolled?

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

I clearly remember everyone being really careful, not cutting across each other and showing deference to all - it worked bloody well and no evidence of any accidents when i came back through the same set of failed lights a while later

[vifferman]

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

Yeah, panic.
People have become so programmed to their behaviour at lights being dictated by a machine (apart from the arseholes that decide they're going to go, even if the light is amber, or amber going red), that at first they panic, and many of them have no idea how an uncontrolled intersection works. Eventually. some of them remember the give way rules, and the rest just close their eyes and hope for the best, or play "follow the leader".

It's all rather a cultural thing. Driving in even a different city has different cultural norms, although Auckland 'expediency rules' are spreading, unfortunately. Chch is more relaxing to drive in than Auckland, Tauranga has become a mini-Auckland, and Rotorua is frustrating because the locals drive very slowly and erratically.

I enjoyed driving in Holland, but not Belgium (which borders Holland, for those of you are geographically impaired), as the people in parts of Belgium (like Brussels) don't seem to know the raod rules, so it's mayhem. The US was likewise pleasant to drive in. Apart from local police, the law enforcement officals largely leave people alone, and the CHP ignore speeding as long as traffic is flowing, and the speeding driver isn't being an ass-hat. At intersections, most of which are 4-way stop signs, although there are rules, generally it works on courtesy, with people establishing for themselves who goes next, and if in doubt, deferring to other drivers. I have a suspicion some of it has to do with not wanting to provoke a road-rage incident that may escalate to a shooting, but it works!

I suspect that if the police here were concerned with safety, and didn't have ACC-mandated quotas to meet, that things would work more betterer. There would still be some 'snakes' whose sole purpose in life is to be an arsehole, but we might see more tickets handed out for genuinely unsafe driving habits than for those that require no more work than pointing a laser gun out the window on the motorway. Policing at its laziest and possibly most ineffectual; what does it achieve? Yes, motorists check their speed, but only until they're past the parked Commodore. If they're pinged, all it does is make them resentful and a little poorer, and causes a hazard of the cop's making, as he pursues his prey through the midst of dozens of other motorists, most of whom are behaving, but some may well be following too closely, talking on cellphones, or otherwise driving in a dangerous way that's not apparent unless the cops give a crap and bother to pay particular attention.

[red675]

when the lights failed

what I saw didn't look much like panic

but a lot more like people thinking for themselves rather than travelling on auto



it helps the understanding if you slow your reading speed

[scumdog]

Wooo! Imagine lil-ol NZ adopting the 'personal responsibility' regime.

Mwahahaha, that's the funniest thing I've heard for..for yonks

[scumdog]

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

I clearly remember everyone being really careful, not cutting across each other and showing deference to all - it worked bloody well and no evidence of any accidents when i came back through the same set of failed lights a while later

Things would change on the thrird day, mark my word.

(it IS New Zealand I'm talking about)

[bsasuper]

We live in NZ, not holland,finland,germany, we have a government which is voted in by NZ'ers,If you want them do do something you have to have a lot of people tell them, otherwise you will have to put up with the shit they throw at us.Its all very well saying we shoiuld do this and that, but if you dont rally the right people, naf all will happen.

[mister.koz]

I've seen the lights fain in the tron a bit and normally its been fine, most of the time people don't seem to know what to do, there is always a pause while people wait to remember the give way rules or wait for someone else to start the ball rolling then its all good.

My biggest doubts are based soley in the lack of intelligence of people on the roads and i seriously doubt that it would be a safe move to start with on any busy street.

Its hard to have faith in the 100,000 drivers that i passed after seeing 7 of them driving like idiots.

That being said; i hate walking on footpaths in parks in central hamilton because of the morons on push bikes but the "share with care" areas are fine... go figure.

[slofox]

fished for about six hours

Didja catch any fish?

[swbarnett]

Its hard to have faith in the 100,000 drivers that i passed after seeing 7 of them driving like idiots.

Indeed, but this what we must do.

[ckai]

Gotta admit too that it's an interesting idea. But it's the mentality of "what about the really crap drivers" which would never see this take off in NZ (country wide that is). The major thing that would make this work is that you are not only responsible for yourself but you have to also take some small responsibility for the other drivers around you.

The biggest problem with not only todays drivers but todays people is the lack of respect for each other. If that changed this sort of thing would be a breeze.

YES, you ever watched what happens when the traffic lights fail ?

No one knows what to bloody do. Do you treat like a round about? Does "main road" have right of way? ahhh. No clues.

But I have to admit, when I've approached failed lights I do it with CRAZY extreme care. Make sure everyone knows I'm moving through and gun it

But that is a pure example of the point. Everyone takes HEAP more care.

Yeah they're infinately better than lights. Can't believe they pulled out some roundabouts in Hamilton recently and changed them to lights.

Round abouts only work when there is an even flow of traffic from all entries. The ones that were changed had too much from coming from the main routes i.e. SH1. So all the other entries had to wait for bloody ages to get through. Meaning people would get impatient and do typical kiwi driver thing and say "bugger it, it's my turn, make way". Crash boom bang.

The lights work heaps better especially during peak times.