Southland Times this morning (3 Nov), bike 'accident' pic

[EgliHonda]

Man these threads get hijacked easily, suddenly we're debating the consequences of doing 200km/hr through town...?

OK I have no agenda, I just thought it strange that with the recent focus on bikes costing the country so much money, here was an instance of someone in a car not giving way at an intersection and some poor bloke copping it. The picture in the article focused on the bike lying broken in the foreground, with ambos/police attending the rider at the back. To me, the root cause of the 'accident' was an elderly lady not giving way (at a give way sign) and I thought more emphasis should be put on that, than the motorcycle.

Yes, I know there is an inherent risk in riding, but is it unreasonable to expect to have right of way at a controlled intersection? Or, as some consider, should you really approach EVERY intersection at a speed where you can stop in case someone barrels through and collects you?

Personally I try to make eye contact with drivers, and if the motion of the car/driver seems to indicate they aren't looking/slowing I WILL button off and put a finger on the brake lever and/or scan for oncoming traffic in case I have to swerve to avoid a prang. In saying that, I do at times assume other road users are going to do what they should, and try and enjoy myself. The stress would probably kill me otherwise...

It turns out incidentally that the bloke on the bike concerned works for the same company as me, and it is very unlikely he was speeding at the time, I understand he has typical collarbone, wrist, rib injuries. No idea how the old dear in the car is faring, or if she will be charged...

On that note:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1129493192

[Katman]

Or, as some consider, should you really approach EVERY intersection at a speed where you can stop in case someone barrels through and collects you?

I accept that there comes a point of no return when going through an intersection but personally, I am totally aware of any other traffic at any intersection that I go through and am prepared (up till that point of no return) to stop if someone fails to give way.

Their are far too many road users (car drivers and motorcyclists alike) who seem to place a blind faith in their 'right of way'.

[vifferman]

I do get it, Dr Katman. There is a (natural?) tendency for KBers to always assume in a vehicular altercation that the biker is not the party at fault. But perhaps that also comes from the natural self-preservation instinct that cause yuman beanz to not admit blame for ShitThatHappens.

However (but!), it's easy to assume from the timbre of your posts that you are anti-biker, as you tend to jump in boots'n'all and attack even quite innocuous statements people make.

If a motorcyclist is speeding and is involved in a collision with a car that pulls out on them then it is a clear case of shared responsibility.

If you take the view you are the one with primary repsonsibility for your own safety on the road, then this is the case even if you are not speeding.
In my case, I wasn't speeding, but to be perfectly Frank (or Earnest, or George..), my lack of legal responsibility did not mean I thought myself totally absolved of any responsibility. This has been the case in ALL incidents I've been a party to, as the primary responsibility for my safety lies with ME.
In this particular instance, I did not do all I could to guarantee my safety, in that I made some assumptions. As I came up to the car, my first thought was (as his car windows were obscured by dew etc.) that he may not have seen me approaching, and I should tootle him melodiously to alert him to my presence. At that moment, his car pulled into the curb (and the kerb too) and I assumed it was in response to noticing me approaching at a faster speed than he was traveling (I was doing maybe 35-40km/h, he was doing maybe 10 or 15). Instead, he was preparing to "crack a U-ie".
He came to an apparent stop at the roadside, I pulled out and started to pass him. He turned right, and - being less manoueverable - I was unable to swerve and brake enough to avoid the collision, although I tried very hard.

[Dave_G]

[QUOTE=EgliHonda;1129495410]Man these threads get hijacked easily, suddenly we're debating the consequences of doing 200km/hr through town...?

but is it unreasonable to expect to have right of way at a controlled intersection?

Nope its not unreasonable to expect to have the right of way in those circumstances. The thing is little old ladies (and others including a lot of riders) make mistakes, like this one, and thats going to keep happening no matter what. Avoidable or not, what is unreasonable is that you and I and every other rider will be expected to pay for it in the long run, not the little old ladies and all the other drivers out there that do similar things. Which is what I think started all this...

[McJim]

So all we really need is legislation to keep the mistake makers off the road. But that doesn't happen here coz operating a vehicle in god(sforsaken)zone is a right that no one is prepared to take off the inept or terminally stupid.

She'll get a slap on the wrist and take out a few children before someone decides to take serious action.

I've come to the conclusion that in general terms New Zealand road users simply don't give a fuck.

O'course I know nothing having lived in Glasgow for 28 years, Tuscany for 1, London for 5, Auckland for 3 and Invercargill for nearly 3. I wouldn't have witnessed any driving in that time to allow me to compare driving skills and attitudes would I?

As you were - sorry New Zealand is, as always, the perfect place to reverse over...sorry...I mean 'raise' your children.

[vifferman]

As to someone U turning in front of you,,I bet they did look and I also bet they did see you,,,I also bet they thought they could make it,,,but were wrong.
What ever,,,,you should of known they would do it,,,not knowing is just an admission of fault,,,,come on man,how old are you and how long have you been doing this thing ?,,,,yeah,that long huh,,,and you still fucked up,,,man do a Defensive riding course before you kill yourself.
I'm not really making a personal attack on you even if it does seem that way,your comment just gave me the opertunity is all,,,but belive this, it is how I put it on myself.

There you go, jumping to conclusions and making assumptions.
The driver did NOT look, or if he did, then it was a significant time before he made the u-turn.
Why should I have known the driver would do a u-turn? He did NOT indicate his intention. It was actually in a place that was not very safe to do a u-turn: just past a right-angle bend (that I'd just come around), and right next to a T-intersection. It was a STUPID place to do a u-turn, but like many D'Aucklanders, he did it anyway, for reasons of expediency, disregarding any risk there might have been. Plus he was a lazy shit and didn't bother clearing his windows before he started the car so he could actually see out of them.

Yes, your comments do seem like a personal attack on me; you know almost nothing about me, about the incident, yet jump to conclusions and make bold statements based soley on your experiences and your opinion.

As a matter of fact, I have done a defensive driving course. I have been driving/riding for nearly 36 years, and apart from a very stupid accident when I was 17 when I t-boned a car that didn't give way, I had an accident-free record until I came to D'Auckland. The drivers here have an entirely unprecedented level of stupidity, and drive to their own set of informal 'rules' that have more to do with expediency and selfishness than any regard whatsoever for road safety or other motorists. It's been a 10-year period of constant learning and adjusting to the risks, and after the aforementioned u-turn incident, I spent a very long time considering whether it was worth riding a bike here.

C'mon, Man! Never assume anything! In part, my fault was that I made an assumption, which you would know you have to do to ride in D'Auckland. You have to be SO alert, and constantly evaluating and sifting all the visual and other information you have before making a split-second decision. In my case, I correctly evaluated the data (the guy probably hadn't seen me), but then failed to make absolutely sure by giving him a warning toot (something I always do now), and then made an erroneous assumption based on his actions: he pulled over, just after I came up behind him, so he must have seen me.

It is entirely possible for ANYONE, even you or Katman, to have a crash when faced with a retard who ignores the road rules and the safety of other road users. But as I've stated before, if something happens (near miss, crash, whatever) I always evaluate what my part was in it, and what could have been done to avoid it. If I'm not continually learning and improving, what's the point?

[scumdog]

Or, as some consider, should you really approach EVERY intersection at a speed where you can stop in case someone barrels through and collects you?

I certainly do, even if I have a green light or the other guy has a stop/giveway sign against him.

[Katman]

It is entirely possible for ANYONE, even you or Katman, to have a crash.........

You questioning my super powers?

[davebullet]

I cannot see how anyone can argue about this. The Road code is very clear about this, if you are waiting at a giveway sign you must wait until it is safe to continue, it doesnt mention anything about the speed the other traffic is going, its a very simple concept and if some people here cannot understand it then i hope i never meet you on the road.

Traffic must wait, but to use your extreme example - a bike traveling at 200kph will move 30 - 50 metres in the time it takes to blink an eye!

You add to the fact that people are looking alternate ways at a T intersection and there is a fair bit of "blind spot" going on. Your fast bike can travel from out of range / site to T bone position in no time.

Who is right and who is wrong does not matter. Principles and rights don't save skin or bone when riding a motorcycle... being weary of old / slow reaction drivers does.

[_Shrek_]

O'course I know nothing having lived in Glasgow for 28 years, Tuscany for 1, London for 5, Auckland for 3 and Invercargill for nearly 3.

so thats why you duck & dive when riding in a straight line the missile's & in Invers the cadges

[mowgli]

Traffic must wait, but to use your extreme example - a bike traveling at 200kph will move 30 - 50 metres in the time it takes to blink an eye!

You add to the fact that people are looking alternate ways at a T intersection and there is a fair bit of "blind spot" going on. Your fast bike can travel from out of range / site to T bone position in no time.

Who is right and who is wrong does not matter. Principles and rights don't save skin or bone when riding a motorcycle... being weary of old / slow reaction drivers does.

All true. I know of a case where the driver giving way was cleared of all responsibility when the skid marks of the vehicle going straight revealed that it had been going significantly higher than the limit. Court determined that it was reasonable for the driver giving way to enter the intersection given how far away the other vehicle was at the time. There was a dip and a bend in play as well but basically the excessive speed trumped the give way.

[Okey Dokey]

Don't worry, EgliHonda, on kiwibiker threads often take on a life of their own. Like this one. It is one of my favourite bits of kb!

[mowgli]

Man these threads get hijacked easily, suddenly we're debating the consequences of doing 200km/hr through town...?

This wouldn't be KB otherwise

Or, as some consider, should you really approach EVERY intersection at a speed where you can stop in case someone barrels through and collects you?

I button off approaching then as I near the point of being committed I accelerate through.

[dipshit]

but basically the excessive speed trumped the give way.

And think of all those motorcyclists getting around thinking other traffic should give way to them irrespective of the speeds they are doing.

Road craft skills of your typical NZ motorcyclist are shockingly poor.

[riffer]

I accept that there comes a point of no return when going through an intersection but personally, I am totally aware of any other traffic at any intersection that I go through and am prepared (up till that point of no return) to stop if someone fails to give way.

Their are far too many road users (car drivers and motorcyclists alike) who seem to place a blind faith in their 'right of way'.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you - well actually it did happen to me, but in a cage.

Pull up to an intersection, I have right of way. Observe other traffic - one who should give way is slowing so I go through. They decide, for whatever reason to accelerate again right across my path so I'm on the anchors.

And some dumb fuck shunts me in the rear because they assumed that I wouldn't stop as I had the right of way.

Yes, if you were speeding and assuming people would give way to you you'd have to assume a modicum of responsibility for being hit by someone in their 70s as their depth and speed perception ain't great.

But sometimes the universe just want to fuck you over.