Crash stats

[jeffs]

I think you'll find the protest threads are elsewhere. This one is called Crash Stats and that is what is being discussed. For me I'm posting because I have seen so much incorrect information when it comes to crash numbers on this forum that I thought I would put them right seeing as I have access to them.

I think you missed my point because I buried it in my post.

"Crunching stats will never change anything"

So apart from some academic exercise, what outcome do you wish to achieve ?

You are all doing what you are accusing ACC of, "Trying to juggle the stats to fit your agenda"

When you find out that it looks bad, or does not prove anything based on the little data you have been provided, you all start juggling again.

I mealy suggest that you decide what facts you wish to prove and if the data does not provide you with the answer you want, ACCEPT it.


This is not the first time these numbers have been crunched and have looked bad for bikers.

If you are doing it as an academic exercise then feel free.

But understand when you finally get to the conclusion, that bikes crash and if the are more bikes, there are more crashes. Please feel free to inform ACC that they are right.

[mashman]

For that year as an example there were 2073 bike crashes in total, 1361 car vs bike, 577 bike only, 135 bike vs truck, bus, pedestrian, cyclist etc etc.

Cheers for the clarification.

So apart from some academic exercise, what outcome do you wish to achieve ?

If the numbers are sound and bikers are crashing blah blah, i'll be more than happy to accept it and hope that the gubmint does something in regards to a safety campaign. BUT, if you're singling out a group for a levy hike and using your stats to justify the raise, IMHO the numbers need to be absolutely bang on... otherwise it's just lies!

But understand when you finally get to the conclusion, that bikes crash and if the are more bikes, there are more crashes. Please feel free to inform ACC that they are right.

I'll never get to that stage and why would any sane person think that. Statistically it may be made to look that way, but come on, there are waaaaaaaaaay more car crashes than bike crashes PERIOD/FULL STOP. The numbers of each on the road are irrelevant because the crashes have happened. I grant you that as a proportional representation it doesn't "look" good for bikers, but we still don't have as many crashes as cars FACT!

And as i'd like a no fault system the only thing i'd like to inform the ACC of is that, er, hmmm, that i'd like a no fault system please.

[jeffs]

BUT, if you're singling out a group for a levy hike and using your stats to justify the raise, IMHO the numbers need to be absolutely bang on... otherwise it's just lies!

First of yes, they are lies, but he is a politician, and thats what they do.

I do not agree with this, it sucks. But welcome to the worlds of politics
( sorry not meaning to make what you are doing sound bad, because I do understand why you are doing it and applaud you for giving it another go ) .

Just so you understand, why I think crunching the numbers is a waist of time and so you understand it is not me dissing your efforts.

Nick Smith was given the stats breakdown, his response on national TV was.

"These are your numbers ( bikers ), I will go with the ones provided to me by my department" ( not exact words as it was some time ago, but close enough. )

This says it all.

1. He has never looked at the stats.
2. If they are wrong, he can blame it on "the department" for providing him with incorrect info.
3. He publicly put down hours of work by bikers, who looked at the data in one sentence.
4. He effectively said " who gives a shit about the stats"

And as i'd like a no fault system the only thing i'd like to inform the ACC of is that, er, hmmm, that i'd like a no fault system please.

Yes 100%, or using ACC maths 200% , and as such, the stats mean nothing, because if it is a no fault system. Identifying who is a fault by using data, or using data to prove you are not at fault, is finding blame.

[Katman]

If the numbers are sound and bikers are crashing blah blah, i'll be more than happy to accept it and hope that the gubmint does something in regards to a safety campaign.

Why should it be left up to the government?

Why can't motorcyclists start their own safety campaign?

Statistically it may be made to look that way, but come on, there are waaaaaaaaaay more car crashes than bike crashes PERIOD/FULL STOP. The numbers of each on the road are irrelevant because the crashes have happened. I grant you that as a proportional representation it doesn't "look" good for bikers, but we still don't have as many crashes as cars FACT!

What a ridiculous statement.

We make up 10% of all road going accidents and yet we're only 2% of the road going fleet.

Work that one out.

[jeffs]

Katman, i'm not taking the piss here, I am being serious.

I want to learn to ride better so I do not have an accident.
I do not believe I am bullet proof and at some stage in my riding life will not respond quick enough to a situation. As I did on monday on the desert road, when I aquaplaned at 90kph, in a straight line after dropping my speed from 110kmh when hit by a flash shower.

If you live in Auckland and can teach me, I will learn from you.

I may not agree with the way you deliver your message ( as I have said in the past ), but if you really believe you can teach every ride to never put themselves in a position that they can not recover from, then I will be your pupil.

Like or dis-like you if I learn something I have gained.

[mashman]

I do not agree with this, it sucks. But welcome to the worlds of politics
( sorry not meaning to make what you are doing sound bad, because I do understand why you are doing it and applaud you for giving it another go ) .

Heh, no offense taken I fully understand how to answer a direct question with a non direct answer... it comes as no surprise to me. However, if you run a business using your stats in this way, you'll go bust pretty quickly, and then you have to charge your customers more!

I agree with you 100%, the problem lies with there being NO ACCOUNTABILITY and when you're supposed to be leading from the top, what kind of example does that set... it's ok to lie, steal and ignore people (to mention but a few). And so we'll do a little dance and a little jig until the election, we'll get new promises, a new gubmint and nothing will change... and all because of some fucking report with seriously questionable figures.

Sorry for stating the obvious, but all gubmints are running this country like a business and all really sucking at it. I'd like to see them removed and persons of "responsibility" put in there place... i mean we only really need to cover the ministerial positions and there are plenty of capable people on here who could fill them! I'd like to start interviewing them as soon as possible!!!!

[Katman]

If you live in Auckland and can teach me, I will learn from you.

I'm sorry to say jeffs, but Auckland is what drove me to The Gates of Delirium.

[mashman]

Why should it be left up to the government?

Why can't motorcyclists start their own safety campaign?

I thought the idea behind what you've been advocating was personal responsibility... are you saying that we need an advertising campaign to tell us how to ride?

What a ridiculous statement.

We make up 10% of all road going accidents and yet we're only 2% of the road going fleet.

Work that one out.

Why is it so ridicious? Please explain? You said we only make up 10%... so why? Take off the Katman spectacles and read it again. I am truly curious to hear your explanation for your statement!

Why do i need to work that out? To what end? So why aren't you off targetting those who cause the other 90%?

[Katman]

I thought the idea behind what you've been advocating was personal responsibility... are you saying that we need an advertising campaign to tell us how to ride?



Why is it so ridicious? Please explain? You said we only make up 10%... so why? Take off the Katman spectacles and read it again. I am truly curious to hear your explanation for your statement!

Why do i need to work that out? To what end? So why aren't you off targetting those who cause the other 90%?

Fuck man, is your brain scrambled eggs?

[mashman]

Fuck man, is your brain scrambled eggs?

You're just a typical mud slinger... you don't have any reasons for your statements. I'm more than happy to continue to explore your higher reasoning in private?

Sorry for the thread jack...

[Berries]

I think you missed my point because I buried it in my post. "Crunching stats will never change anything" So apart from some academic exercise, what outcome do you wish to achieve ?

I am just quoting the true number of crashes reported by the Police to answer the OP and other questions that came up, seeing as you asked. No juggling required. However crunching stats obviously can change things because that is exactly what the ACC have just done isn’t it ?

But understand when you finally get to the conclusion, that bikes crash and if the are more bikes, there are more crashes. Please feel free to inform ACC that they are right?

I haven’t checked, but I think if you replace the word bike in that sentence with any other type of vehicle you may just find the answer is the same. I don’t think that was really the point of this thread.

I really do hate to say it but I actually agree with you. I’ve spent enough time looking at crashes and crash stats to know it will never look good for bikers. Unless people start riding defensively to avoid being hit by a car and ride within the limits of themselves, the bike and the road to avoid a single vehicle incident the numbers won’t go down. There is no point trying to lay the blame at anyone else’s door. But it’s hard. The main reason I ride is for the buzz I get from the acceleration, from wasting cars that think they are fast, from getting my favourite corners just right. All risky and antisocial activities unlikely to help reduce the crash numbers in the long run, but they get my adrenaline flowing and make my day better.

[Katman]

I really do hate to say it but I actually agree with you. I’ve spent enough time looking at crashes and crash stats to know it will never look good for bikers. Unless people start riding defensively to avoid being hit by a car and ride within the limits of themselves, the bike and the road to avoid a single vehicle incident the numbers won’t go down. There is no point trying to lay the blame at anyone else’s door. But it’s hard. The main reason I ride is for the buzz I get from the acceleration, from wasting cars that think they are fast, from getting my favourite corners just right. All risky and antisocial activities unlikely to help reduce the crash numbers in the long run, but they get my adrenaline flowing and make my day better.

It's sad that you can be so right on one hand and so wrong on the other.

[Berries]

There's a time and a place for doing that kind of thing though. I don't want to end up as a stat.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Why should it be left up to the government?

Why can't motorcyclists start their own safety campaign?


We make up 10% of all road going accidents and yet we're only 2% of the road going fleet.

Work that one out.

That is the bottom line.

Time to grow up, put all this energy and effort into something infinitely more achievable and worthy than fumbling for excuses as to why we shouldn't pay a fair share of the costs that we cause. Prioritise taking responsibility for the problems we make for ourselves and make it our objective to increase rider education/training and improved road conditions.

Christ! We stopped the world spinning for bikeoi because we were indignant that we were getting shafted with levies but can't find the same enthusiasm to make rider education and better road maintenance happen??? That is sad.

[Qkkid]

Those stats stink to high heaven.

5000 claims? If you consider that many bikers own a few bikes, you are looking at one injury claim per 20 bikers per year.

Shit we have 5 bikes in our garage no accidents or bins the last 3 and a half years something stinks i reckon.
Stats are interesting things you leave something out and Presto
Dejavue ACC/ Politicians doing what they do best
Bullshitting the stats to suit there own agendas