Constructive advice to government

[The Stranger:Me]

I believe the greatest improvement could be made in teaching hazard awareness.

Wouldn't cost a whole lot either.

(That, and making the Basic Handling Skills course a whole lot more thorough).

What at the sacrifice of speed and lean angle? Are you out of your mind?

[Katman]

What at the sacrifice of speed and lean angle? Are you out of your mind?

Many would say so.

[Tink]

A woman decided that her lane was not suitable and as she turned right, she came into our lane, my 1st reaction (playing pillion)... was to stick my hand out.. no I am not superwoman, sure wished I was...she only reacted when Geordie hooted at her.

My point.. you can't change the rider, or the driver... no matter how many skills you drive into people... ITS THE PERSON ... that needs changing.

I agree with Winston here... cockyness, hoons, idiots... all impowered by this great course they have done...

or

those that have done no course and just use common sense when riding.

Accidents sadly happen... but seriously take your own course into your own hands, and do not judge... just keep that adrenaline on hold.

Tomorrow I attend a memorial for a 6 year old... be lucky your still around to ride a bike.

[CookMySock]

Looking at the stats, it seems like a high proportion of accidents (about 50%) are just bikers having an accident all by themselves, by for example going off corners. Now I reckon this is because many bikers freeze up on corners and ride off corners because they are not experienced enough to know better, do not countersteer, and are not fully aware of the capabilities of their own bike.

I agree.

I reckon if bikers attended something like the "California superbike school" where they have bikes kitted out to allow a person to push the limits of front and back wheel grip safely (with trainer wheels), these sort of accidents could be reduced a lot.

Nope. It's too late by then. You might be able to pull a few out of it, but newbies must be held down by the hair and forced to do it from scratch, or else they just ride around and cement into their brain a lot of bad habits. As you will know, riding is not some logical rational thing - it is a brain embedding thing, and if you don't embed and fixate it properly from the word go, you are just pissing in the wind.

So maybe attendance at such training sessions and on such equipment could be a way or reducing ACC levies, and accidents? Or to subsidise the classes at the CSBKS?

I don't think so. I think it will just be fun for the boys on a cool motorbike, with a certificate at the end.

Also, maybe increased practical riding test requirements (like the Dutch ones where a hard swerve is required (without brakes) from 50km/hr to show that a rider knows how to use countersteering and is awre of his bikes limits?

Nuh. Ten minutes explaining, and any idiot can do that. It emphatically does not mean that this person will now revert to their basic training when they get a fright, and imeditely take actions that will save their life, because they DONT HAVE any basic training.

By the way, be careful suggesting on KB that you might make some training apparatus to attach to a bike to inspire confidence in the learner, as I recently tried this and got resoundly bashed by racers and other experienced users alike, much to many Mentors' mirth.

Nice ideas, but misdirected. Throw OUT the basic handling skills course, and replace it with a proper training program that DOES NOT ALLOW bikers on the road unless they are FORCED to undertake a countersteering program which firmly and indelibly stamps it in their brain forever, to such an extent that any fright on the road instantly evokes a reaction from them to correctly swerve around the problem, rather than closing their eyes and running straight into it. If that's too hard, they only get to ride a moped - stiff cheese.

Steve

[Katman]

By the way, be careful suggesting on KB that you might make some training apparatus to attach to a bike to inspire confidence in the learner, as I recently tried this and got resoundly bashed by racers and other experienced users alike, much to many Mentors' mirth.

Oh, how we chortled.

[Squiggles]

Put the money before a panel and let them have a say on how its spent, i know some of the accident prevention people i've worked with will be rubbing their hands together thinking of bonuses etc, when they've done nought but regurgitate and underfund ideas that came about from the 1998 working group. Put 1/2 into Rider training, at all levels... money towards courses such as RRRS (not california superbike school). A 3rd into advertisements and awareness campaigns, more akin to that we see in the UK, again approved by a working group, saves wasting money on some of their more useless advertisements to date. Use the rest as is needed

[Squiggles]

Nice ideas, but misdirected. Throw OUT the basic handling skills course, and replace it with a proper training program that DOES NOT ALLOW bikers on the road unless ....

This is misdirected, such a change is (presumably) legislative (or alternatively, another branch of the govt's responsibility). I would have said you should submit to this effect on the MoT Safer Journeys document, but that consultation closed a couple of months back...

Spending money putting followup courses out there, that are accessible, affordable, and most importantly useful, then promoting these, CAN be done.

[CookMySock]

pending money putting followup courses out there, that are accessible, affordable, and most importantly useful, then promoting these, CAN be done.

That's been tried, and no-one wants to do them. Everyone wants the stupid boring demeaning course out of the way so they go ride their bike and do it their way, if they haven't already, but then the mindset is made, bad habits already begun, and you have lost them permanently.

The only way to success is to capture the person before they get on the road, and force them to adhere to the program until they get it.. The advantage is, a person who can brake and steer - aka a sport bike rider, and not just a motorcycle license holder, a marketable benefit.

Steve

[phred]

So the consensus here is that everything is a waste of time and nothing works.
If riders are untrained they crash because they don't know what they are doing.
If they are trained they crash because they are taking risks as they are now "experts".
It is the riders fault.
It is the other persons fault.
Tightening the licensing requirements works for some and not for others.
Ad Nauseam.

[StoneY]

The only way to success is to capture the person before they get on the road, and force them to adhere to the program until they get it.. The advantage is, a person who can brake and steer - aka a sport bike rider, and not just a motorcycle license holder, a marketable benefit.

Steve

Who is to say a skilled rider HAS to be a sport bike owner Steve?

Im own 2 sporty bikes, (ones a superbike actually) and I am constantly overtaken on the Taka's by cruisers, and street bikes, and sometime I even overtake another bike myself, never have i noticed any great skill differential due to bike style, just a sheer horespower difference

On the regular rides I attend, I seem to hold my own mid pack with no effort, make way for faster riders, overtake slower ones as best my skills allow

I would love to do some advanced rider training, but cant find the budget for it, if the gubbermint supplied subsidized courses, I maybe COULD afford to become a 'sportbiker' lol

The Police are running a free skills day in Martinborough, Feb 21
Be there, its free, Police college, area safety officer and Police Motorcycle Team hosting

Be a great test to see HOW MANY experienced riders will actually do a refresher at the least

[CookMySock]

Who is to say a skilled rider HAS to be a sport bike owner Steve?

Perhaps I use the wrong word, bro.

What I mean is, there are two categories of rider, one who steers with the bars from the heart, and one who grits his teeth, holds the bars tightly, and tips the bike in as best he can, except when he gets a fright and stands it up and brakes in panic.

One of these riders is a hazard to all and sundry, and they other can extricate himself from the crap should the need arise.

Steve

[Blackbird]

I agree about raising riding standards, doing my advanced in 2003 was a revelation, despite having ridden since the 60's.

However, whilst it's all right and proper to focus on raising rider skills, the outcome would be so much better if he authorities focussed on raising car driver skills too, particularly situational awareness. We could have a very real role in pushing for this at the same time.

[StoneY]

Perhaps I use the wrong word, bro.



One of these riders is a hazard to all and sundry, and they other can extricate himself from the crap should the need arise.

Steve

I knew bro, lol all good, just point making tbh

I probably sit in between the two riders you describe...still have odd moments of panic, wtf, uh oh close eyes and pray!

Having said that I have survived 3 extremely close calls this year alone, 2x actually being collided with by other vehicles (one cage, one bike)...and stayed upright (phew)

Guess I'm doing something right

[duckonin]

I dont think that you are giving *most* riders enough credit.

Although we know that we can get another 10 degrees of lean angle, we don't because we also know that a dog or pothole could be around the corner. But at least we wont freeze up mid corner in panic because we don't believe we can lean any further...

Use the power of positive thinking, when the going gets tough to save your arse push on that bar, put that into your top paddock " going is getting tough!! push push looking for that way out, always do that and when it is time to panic your "brain" will use those thoughts to stay safe...

[jeffs]

So the consensus here is that everything is a waste of time and nothing works.
If riders are untrained they crash because they don't know what they are doing.
If they are trained they crash because they are taking risks as they are now "experts".
It is the riders fault.
It is the other persons fault.
Tightening the licensing requirements works for some and not for others.
Ad Nauseam.

Well Said Phred

All this thread is saying , some of us want to ride better, but what ever is offered is not good enough for some, because they see themselfs as already perfect.

I don't give a shit what is on offer.

I will go to any professionally run Rider training offered by ACC, why because I might just learn one thing, and if that one thing means I do not crash I have learned something.

ACC have said they listened to bikers and reduced the levies, one of the costs of doing this was to put some money aside to set up training programs.

By all means feel free to not attend, but when ACC hike the levies again because all the existing bikers thought they were to good to attend. Don't you dare complain about the rises.

If you go, you have a voice, if you don't , you have little interest in safety and you waisted an opportunity due to arrogance.

Track days will not teach you Risk analysis and hazard identification the mainstays of any safety program.