Average speeds dropping, yet road toll increasing

[davebullet]

The simple matter is there are too many dumb, inattentive or aggressive bastards on our roads who should never have been handed a license.

There is no requirement to refresh your road code.

It is still acceptable and perfectly legal to drink (a little bit) and drive.

People drive 2+ tonne vans, 4wds and buses like they'll stop on a dime / handle like a Lotus.

There are too many gadgets / gizmos and distractions in cars. Bare minimum accessories (heater).

There is no compulsory advanced or defensive driver training.

[Mikkel]

Overseas experience is that when speed limits are raised, accident rates actually decline, but as I pointed out earlier it is politically expedient to make speeding the bogey man of highways safety.

The easy solution isn't always the best solution.

Yep. The German autobahn being a great example of this. In some areas there are no speed limits at all and the road toll on the autobahn (considering number of vehicle kilometers traveled) is very low indeed.

But you see the same idiotic approach in other aspects of society as well - the "if we call it bad and ban it, surely it will just go away"-mentality. There was a good article on this in regards to the "war on drugs" on Stuff today. Different issue, same mentality - same lack of results.

Such a long time and they are still reluctant to face the music - road tolls are about driver culture (or lack of if you will), which in turn ties in with driver education. I didn't get what I wanted for Christmas this year, but maybe next year we can have politicians with both balls and brains...

[shrub]

The simple matter is there are too many dumb, inattentive or aggressive bastards on our roads who should never have been handed a license.

There is no requirement to refresh your road code.

It is still acceptable and perfectly legal to drink (a little bit) and drive.

People drive 2+ tonne vans, 4wds and buses like they'll stop on a dime / handle like a Lotus.

There are too many gadgets / gizmos and distractions in cars. Bare minimum accessories (heater).

There is no compulsory advanced or defensive driver training.

I couldn't agree more. If we rode our bikes the way most people seem to drive their cars, KB would have 20 people on it and the morgues would be chokka and if the attitudes that I see as being typical in an experienced motorcyclist were common in car drivers, the road toll would be halved, but open road speeds would increase.

[davebullet]

I couldn't agree more. If we rode our bikes the way most people seem to drive their cars, KB would have 20 people on it and the morgues would be chokka and if the attitudes that I see as being typical in an experienced motorcyclist were common in car drivers, the road toll would be halved, but open road speeds would increase.

I was amazed at how "slack" I had become as a car driver. With:
conversations in the car
distracted by children in the back fighting
radio too loud
don't worry about what is around the corner as I can brake mid corner no worries etc.. etc...

When I started riding a bike, it was like everything was in sharp focus. I HAD to plan ahead. I didn't have the distractions (I've tried iPod listening but actually don't like it that much and find it distracts me).

I am much more aware of road surfaces. I never saw oil / diesel spots on the road after rain, now it is obvious (even only minutes after the last shower).

I saw a woman driving a van too quickly around the mana roundabout and rolled it over in front of me. Just prior, she was travelling next to me (right lane). I wasn't involved / safe as I read what was happening, backed off and watched it unfold.

Motorcycling has made me a safer motorist, but I also speed more.

Why do I speed more? Because I ride to the conditions. If I can overtake someone at 120kph and get it over and done with quickly, then I read that as far safer than sitting in the opposing lane for an extended period. I would rather pay money on speeding tickets and keep myself safe in this scenario rather than risk my life to abide with the law.

[TripleZee Dyno]

Objective analysis of accident data shows the primary cause of vehicle accidents is human error. Speed in itself doesnt cause accidents. Excessive speed (for the conditions) is generally due to human error.
Changing driver behaviour has been put into the too hard basket, instead by concentrating on speeding they are just trying to mitigate the effects of poor driving.

They could issue drivers licences along the same lines as you get a private pilots licence, ie training, exams, and the investment of money. While this would probably cull the majority of poor drivers, and likely bring the road toll way down, a cost/benefit analysis would show the 300 odd lives saved would not make up for the economic and political repercussions of only 20% of the population (a wild guess) being allowed to drive.
So it aint going to happen.

wot he said
Lets face it the government could "fixit" at the stroke of a pen, lower the speed limits to say 50km/hr open road 30kmhr every where else. there would likely be a lot more crashes but provided people stuck to the speed limit the road toll would probably drop dramatically. Motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians will still be stuffed but then banning motorcycles, cycles, and walking would fix that.
(Death from road rage attacks on people only doing 49km/hr would be included in the murder stats rather than as vehicle deaths)
OR
whack the fines up say $1000 minimum plus loss of licence/impound for over 100k.
Why dont they? because its likely 99% of people would stick to the speed limit and they lose income while still having to pay out enforcement costs
Fines have to be affordable so they are more of an irritation rather than a calamity to motorists so as not to deter them too much.
But at $1000, I would program a speed limiter into my Buell. As it is if I get pinged $100 its not the end of the world.

100km/hr is a politically acceptable figure, any lower eg 80k like back in the 70's, could lead to large scale civil disobedience, any higher and either an increase or a decrease in the road toll would be politically embarrassing.
We wont get a higher limit until they can sort out driver standards and get the road toll down even further.
So until then we are stuck with 100k.
Probably quite a while since its a nice little earner as well.

[steve_t]

While we're on it, why is the limit 100 km/h? It seems such an arbitrary figure which is a result of our decimal system. Is there any research showing that at 100 there's xx% risk of yy but at 120 there's 3(xx) risk? I'm all for driving to the conditions but aren't conditions improving? 5 star safety rated cages, (hopefully) better road design and maintenance (LOL), etc. I'd support the enforcement of compulsory advanced driver training (the government can make money from this too!) and a re-evaluation of speed limits. NB I also support the 40 km/h limit in front of schools during busy times so it's not just about allowing us to go faster

[MarkH]

When I started riding a bike, it was like everything was in sharp focus. I HAD to plan ahead. I didn't have the distractions (I've tried iPod listening but actually don't like it that much and find it distracts me).

I am much more aware of road surfaces. I never saw oil / diesel spots on the road after rain, now it is obvious (even only minutes after the last shower).

Motorcycling has made me a safer motorist, but I also speed more.

Faster, but safer? That's unpossible!
Surely if that was true the government would put their efforts into making people better drivers irather than just penalizing the people that go faster than the limit?
A Government that just tickets the speeders and puts little effort into whatever might be needed to improve the standards of driving would be one hell of a lousy Government . . . oh, wait . . .

One of the silliest things in my opinion is when someone gains more than 100 demerit points - they just take the license away for 3 months, how does that help anything? I would rather see something sensible like >100 demerit points => compulsory advanced driver training course. I would also like to see demerit points not given out for exceeding the speed limit, but given out for bad driving. i.e. 'ello 'ello 'ello - I noticed you driving like a fuckwit - here's a ticket for 20 demerit points and a $200 fine, in future try to drive like someone with a brain please, have a nice day!

I think my idea would have a better chance of improving road safety than the current system.
Also - fiddling with the radio while driving = demerit points. When someone is out in public hurtling along at 100kph in 1.5 tonnes of glass & steel I think it would be a good idea for them to pay attention to controlling the vehicle and looking ahead - less chance of them killing someone then.

[TripleZee Dyno]

While we're on it, why is the limit 100 km/h? It seems such an arbitrary figure which is a result of our decimal system. Is there any research showing that at 100 there's xx% risk of yy but at 120 there's 3(xx) risk? I'm all for driving to the conditions but aren't conditions improving? 5 star safety rated cages, (hopefully) better road design and maintenance (LOL), etc. I'd support the enforcement of compulsory advanced driver training (the government can make money from this too!) and a re-evaluation of speed limits. NB I also support the 40 km/h limit in front of schools during busy times so it's not just about allowing us to go faster

Its not a magic number, just a carryover from when the speed limit was 60mph and its easy to see on the speedo.
When I first started riding/driving I think the speed limit was 50 mph. It wasnt a big deal because the majority of vehicles on the road didnt go much faster than that and the roads were full of corners. So 40-50 was probably a "natural" open road speed. Especially when you are pissed. To wind your Prefect up to the speed limit you needed a couple of miles of straight
When they started building motorways I think they upped it to 60mph and then extended it to be the open road limit. It got dropped to 50mph for a while when we were running out of petrol.
The big difference now is all the road improvements and the vast increase in vehicle performance means the natural speed is probably anywhere from 120k to 160k.
But there can be a big difference in consequences between being an idiot at 80k and an idiot at 160k
I have experienced both and would rather crash at 80k.
We also had minimal driving training and testing back then as well. I drove a car to the cop shop, ran the cop around to his mates place to pick some "stuff" up, back to the cop shop and he gave me my licence.
Also we didnt have to wear helmets, didnt have seatbelts, or airbags, the only crumple zone was your skull crumpling on the dashboard, the steering wheel, the pillars, the windscreen. Drink driving was OK, you kicked the shit out of anyone stupid enough to get caught in a ruck, aahh the good old days

[MSTRS:Me]

The amount of poor driving I saw yesterday whilst returning from parts North, left me shaking my head. Very little 'speeding', but.
On a borrowed bike (thanks that generous KBer) I was sitting in the left wheel track on the rightmost lane of 3. A Diamante was sitting to my left and just behind for ages, matching every speed change I made so I couldn't move over. A pusbucket Lancer sat behind me until he decided that splitting me would be a good idea. I was doing maybe 110 on the speedo, gave it a quick squirt to clear MrDiamante and moved left to let MrPusbucket's mate move past safely. At that point Mr75kphTruck is looming larger in the middle lane, so I indicate and move right...only MrDiamante thought he'd have my spot. He shot ahead for all of 200metres, at which point he cranked hard left across the nose of the truck and anyone in the left lane to exit the MW .
Mr(and Mrs)60/70/80 on the open road with 20 vehicles banked up behind, always feel the need to do 110 at passing lanes. If that doesn't 'make' people do stupid shit I don't know what does.
Then on 5, across the plains on cruise control, set at 108 - gotta be sensible and safe, eh? - nobody passing me or vise versa, until the last section of straight before the cafe/motel on the left. MissOldCorona and MrSUV shoot past at maybe 130. I think "Oh yeah. I'll be seeing you 2 again". Sure enough. About 1km past the Rangitikei on the right, there they are . Under 90, holding me up until a passing opportunity...seeyalater. Actually, no. I didn't see either of them later. And me back on cruise control set at 108. Except on 'those' corners, of course.
So tell me again how speed kills?

[PeeJay]

The amount of poor driving I saw yesterday whilst returning from parts North, left me shaking my head. Very little 'speeding', but.
On a borrowed bike (thanks that generous KBer) I was sitting in the left wheel track on the rightmost lane of 3. A Diamante was sitting to my left and just behind for ages, matching every speed change I made so I couldn't move over. A pusbucket Lancer sat behind me until he decided that splitting me would be a good idea. I was doing maybe 110 on the speedo, gave it a quick squirt to clear MrDiamante and moved left to let MrPusbucket's mate move past safely. At that point Mr75kphTruck is looming larger in the middle lane, so I indicate and move right...only MrDiamante thought he'd have my spot. He shot ahead for all of 200metres, at which point he cranked hard left across the nose of the truck and anyone in the left lane to exit the MW .
Mr(and Mrs)60/70/80 on the open road with 20 vehicles banked up behind, always feel the need to do 110 at passing lanes. If that doesn't 'make' people do stupid shit I don't know what does.
Then on 5, across the plains on cruise control, set at 108 - gotta be sensible and safe, eh? - nobody passing me or vise versa, until the last section of straight before the cafe/motel on the left. MissOldCorona and MrSUV shoot past at maybe 130. I think "Oh yeah. I'll be seeing you 2 again". Sure enough. About 1km past the Rangitikei on the right, there they are . Under 90, holding me up until a passing opportunity...seeyalater. Actually, no. I didn't see either of them later. And me back on cruise control set at 108. Except on 'those' corners, of course.
So tell me again how speed kills?

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean

[MarkH]

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean

What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!

[MSTRS:Me]

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean

What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!

And there's your answer.
Teach better driving skills, better awareness skills, better vehicle control, better everything really...stop teaching them how to pass a test.

[Katman]

What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!

The same can be said of the need for improvement to the standard of riding.

[gwigs]

Its the speed of slowing down very suddenly that kills ya ....deceleration truama......

[Kickaha]

The same can be said of the need for improvement to the standard of riding.

Don't be stupid, any and all motorcyclists riding is above reproach as we are all above average road users