GST going up, Personal and company tax going down, CGT in investment property

[MisterD]

I think I/S's point was targeted at the lower top personal tax rate offset by added GST - which is rather in favour of the rich pricks among us.

Defining "rich prick" as someone on PAYE earning more than $70k is a bit strong don't you think? The point is (ably made by Gareth Morgan this morning) that the current tax regime unfairly clobbers the middle whilst allowing the real big earners to exploit massive f-ing loopholes.

And I/S is, in my opinion, one of the sanest commentators on NZ politics there is.

Ha ha ha ha....I suppose it's possible to look sane when there's the Stranded to be compared with...

[Edbear]

Yup, such is capitalism, and such are people. But I think there may be other factors at work besides natural variability in human temperament that cause there to be 1000 billionaires and 5 billion people on $10/day. It's systemic - y'know, the rich get richer, the poor poorer? The rest of your post is good..

It is systemic to an extent but an economy can be managed in a fairer way. In the end, though, much of where a person lives in the economic strata is up to the individual who as an adult has the power to change themselves and improve their lot.

As a middle clas wage earner, i will get screwed over ... again. Along with all the taxes the Nats have put on (ACC, petrol, ETS adn any others i have missed) we now get the privildege of paying more GST on them as well.
Lower income tax? nice theory, but it won't work - fiscal drag (Cullen and Muldoons bestest friend) will take care of that. As the income tax bands aren't inflation indexed, inflation pushes everyone up until they are "rich pricks" and a few years down the track we ahve all the new taxes, and all the old ones too.
30,000 kiwis go to Oz each year - i wonder why? THis isn't going to change it.
Geoff

Defining "rich prick" as someone on PAYE earning more than $70k is a bit strong don't you think? The point is (ably made by Gareth Morgan this morning) that the current tax regime unfairly clobbers the middle whilst allowing the real big earners to exploit massive f-ing loopholes.
...

I thought Gareth's interview was interesting and I feel he was correct.

[James Deuce]

It is systemic to an extent but an economy can be managed in a fairer way. In the end, though, much of where a person lives in the economic strata is up to the individual who as an adult has the power to change themselves and improve their lot.

That is always held up as a truism and it simply isn't true. One of the big lies of Western Civilisation is you can be anything you "want" to be. You can't. You should be exceptionally good at what you can achieve, not always lusting after something unattainable.

[Edbear]

That is always held up as a truism and it simply isn't true. One of the big lies of Western Civilisation is you can be anything you "want" to be. You can't. You should be exceptionally good at what you can achieve, not always lusting after something unattainable.

I wasn't saying you can be anything or anyone you want, as Clint Eastwood once said, (at least I think it was him), "One needs to know one's limitations!"

But we are all products of our history and environment. The big advantage of being a human, is that we have the power to change ourselves and our circumstances, (in most cases), and be better than our past.

My point, really, is that too many are "trapped in their past" and do not have the drive or motivation to change themselves or their circumstances and far too many expect someone else to do it for them. It takes effort, persistent effort to do something about yourself and your situation, and too few are willing to keep at it unbtil they succeed.

When my kids were young and they had to do the dishes, they would often complain, "I can't get this pot clean!" Of course they could, they just wanted it come clean with the effort they were prepared to put in and if it took longer or more effort, they "couldn't do it".

Ask anyone who has succeeded, and they will have done whatever it took for as long as it took to succeed.

[James Deuce]

I wasn't saying you can be anything or anyone you want, as Clint Eastwood once said, (at least I think it was him), "One needs to know one's limitations!"

But we are all products of our history and environment. The big advantage of being a human, is that we have the power to change ourselves and our circumstances, (in most cases), and be better than our past.

My point, really, is that too many are "trapped in their past" and do not have the drive or motivation to change themselves or their circumstances and far too many expect someone else to do it for them. It takes effort, persistent effort to do something about yourself and your situation, and too few are willing to keep at it unbtil they succeed.

When my kids were young and they had to do the dishes, they would often complain, "I can't get this pot clean!" Of course they could, they just wanted it come clean with the effort they were prepared to put in and if it took longer or more effort, they "couldn't do it".

Ask anyone who has succeeded, and they will have done whatever it took for as long as it took to succeed.

That's judged entirely by YOUR criteria with your expectations and desires filtering any reasonable response that pertains an individual's situation.

[Edbear]

That's judged entirely by YOUR criteria with your expectations and desires filtering any reasonable response that pertains an individual's situation.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[mashman]

Sound advice for anyone my friend. Why aren't you the employer?

I have run in the past and am now running my own business. My son-in-law starting from scratch now runs his own successful business and has staff employed.

Anyone who thinks a business owner is a selfish rich prick taking advantage of his employess is completely ignorant of what it means to own and run a business. You get to work 24/7 instead of knocking off at 5pm and you work weekends, and you stress and worry about wages and the health of your staff who are necessary to the success of your business.

You have sacrificed, time, money and resources to build a business for teh future and you are constantly aware of your competitors who may have deeper pockets than you have. Your wife and children have been neglected due to the needs of your business as you try to get it firmly established. You worry about how to tell your staff to work harder as they sneak time and put forth less effort than they should, costing you money you can't really afford.

Employees need to appreciate that they are the key to whether a business succeeds or fails and if they bring the business down and are laid off, they lose less than the owner does. An employee who works hard for the success of the company will be highly valued and appreciated and the owner will look for when they can reward them.

I'm not the employer for the exact same reasons you list after that as to what it takes. I'm a family man, plain and simple, 3 young daughters that need attention etc... Unfortunately though i've been part of ventures that went tits and each time (read 3 times) there's always been a rich prick just feathering his nest, only caring about the $$$, not building a company, but raping it so that they can reap the benefits of tax loopholes... That's how a lot of businesses are run these days, measured by the amount of profit, with no care or attention paid to staff retention or the efforts being put in... Plenty of reasons why I don't, but who knows, when the girls are all at school it may well be time to start thinking about "securing" their future.

[James Deuce]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate?

No. I'm tired of having to make undignified replies to satisy curious bystanders.

[mashman]

Here's a thought experiment:
Imagine we had a single world economy/currency, one central bank, etc. First day in business the shiny new world govt issues everyone a million billion trillion zillion credits - we'd all be rich, right? And, approximately, equally so - as any former wealth or lack thereof would fade into insignificance. Except we wouldn't, nothing much would change for the peasant or the investment banker, relatively speaking. Money alone does not make wealth.

I remember this from a discussion i had with my economics teacher years ago. Everyone would instantly stop working, miller time even. No carers, doctors, police, nothing, no food production, it all just ends badly as you point out. To get people back to work, the producers of milk up the price to 1 trillion dollars, same with bread makers, veggie growers, fuel etc... A financial economy can never be a fair system.

[mashman]

Ask anyone who has succeeded, and they will have done whatever it took for as long as it took to succeed.

That's a HUGE part of the problem though. You're brought up to value money. You're brought up to realise that you need money to live. You're brought and eventually have your own wants and needs. How do you get the things you want and need? Fill in the blanks yourself, for how you would get there.

BUT, there are plenty of people who just want money and power. There are simple games that you can play, i've seen friends do it, talk a good game, get a job, do a good job, get a pay rise, leave for another job with your new impressive cv and of course for more money, repeat for 20 years... bingo, retired by 40. Most, i would say, learn next to nothing and those that make it that far just don't stop... you end up with rich twats at the top of the tree with no experience, making shitty decisions that screw over billions of people, but as long as they get their bonus, ya know the bonuses that could build, furnish and staff a new hospital, then it's all good, they're doing a good job... The secret is to talk a good game. And if you've worked that out, then screw the life of bouncing from job to job and just become a politician...

I have no doubt that there are people out there who have worked, worried and generally been good people to get where they are and good on them, but the flip side screws the world over.

But that's just my take on it...

[Tank]

That's a HUGE part of the problem though. You're brought up to value money. You're brought up to realise that you need money to live. You're brought and eventually have your own wants and needs. How do you get the things you want and need? Fill in the blanks yourself, for how you would get there.

BUT, there are plenty of people who just want money and power. There are simple games that you can play, i've seen friends do it, talk a good game, get a job, do a good job, get a pay rise, leave for another job with your new impressive cv and of course for more money, repeat for 20 years... bingo, retired by 40. Most, i would say, learn next to nothing and those that make it that far just don't stop... you end up with rich twats at the top of the tree with no experience, making shitty decisions that screw over billions of people, but as long as they get their bonus, ya know the bonuses that could build, furnish and staff a new hospital, then it's all good, they're doing a good job... The secret is to talk a good game. And if you've worked that out, then screw the life of bouncing from job to job and just become a politician...

I have no doubt that there are people out there who have worked, worried and generally been good people to get where they are and good on them, but the flip side screws the world over.

But that's just my take on it...

People who subscribe to that whought process are generally people that never made it. They are looking up from the bottom generally thinking that they know it all and far more than the guy at the top.

Rarley do they understand the full picture, or understand all the drivers - they all seem to think that they can do the job of a CEO just by 'talking a good game' and having pretty hair.

Its a ignorant argument. God forbid that the leaders of industry actually know something and contribute to the sucess of their businesses that give jobs to the billions of people you seem to think that they are screwing.

More business suceed because of them - not despite of them. Id also bet that most business if they were to swap the CEO for the 'know it all' on the shop floor would be broke in a few months.

[rainman]

The secret is to talk a good game.

People who subscribe to that whought process are generally people that never made it. They are looking up from the bottom generally thinking that they know it all and far more than the guy at the top.

Rarley do they understand the full picture, or understand all the drivers - they all seem to think that they can do the job of a CEO just by 'talking a good game' and having pretty hair.

Its a ignorant argument. God forbid that the leaders of industry actually know something and contribute to the sucess of their businesses that give jobs to the billions of people you seem to think that they are screwing.

More business suceed because of them - not despite of them. Id also bet that most business if they were to swap the CEO for the 'know it all' on the shop floor would be broke in a few months.

IMHO, you're both right, to a degree. I'm sure there are CEOs that are close to the ideal, are talented and hard-working etc, but there's not a lot of them. Particularly in NZ. I've worked in management positions (some fairly senior) in many companies, and can count on the fingers of one finger the number of genuinely good people in top management I've come across. Actualy that's a bit harsh: one brilliant guy at least, and a few I would call not completely terrible. But I've come across a large number of unprincipled, selfish, dishonest, scheming, mean, ... bastards who do not even slightly fit the ideal mould you describe. All "successful", by and large. And the good guys? Mostly got screwed over by bastards higher up than them in the end. One guy was made to do all the dirty work in the local company, at great personal cost to his conscience, before the Aussie top management pushed him out the door. And if it's not higher management that drives this it's often competition.

Corporations have no conscience. Globalised capitalism as it is today is a race to the bottom, for most of us.

[mashman]

People who subscribe to that whought process are generally people that never made it. They are looking up from the bottom generally thinking that they know it all and far more than the guy at the top. Rarley do they understand the full picture, or understand all the drivers - they all seem to think that they can do the job of a CEO just by 'talking a good game' and having pretty hair.

Maybe that's generally the case, but I think this way for my own reasons, not through misguided envy or carrying a chip on my shoulder about what someone else has achieved... moreover knowing that sometimes there's a little lord fontleroy at the top that doesn't have the first clue about what they're doing, got there on a wink and a smile, greased a few palms, talked a good game, looks great on TV... It happen ya know. I realise that a CEO does more than just play golf and fanny around all day.

Its a ignorant argument. God forbid that the leaders of industry actually know something and contribute to the sucess of their businesses that give jobs to the billions of people you seem to think that they are screwing.

It's an ignorant argument if you use it in your context. But, that being the case, where did all of the money go that caused the recession, i mean, why did the US car manufacturing industry nearly fail, banks, real estate etc... how could that have happened with all of those successful people at the wheel, how come noone saw it coming, playing with the money (and lives) of billions of people. Someone made a serious faux pas. One guy in the UK, a banker no less, lost 24 billion POUNDS, got asked to leave and is now living on a pension of 690,000 pounds a year... So run the ignorant argument by me again! I fear it's all contextual or trolling...

More business suceed because of them - not despite of them. Id also bet that most business if they were to swap the CEO for the 'know it all' on the shop floor would be broke in a few months.

Very true again. But if you put the "know it all" (who may well be right) and the CEO together... it might change the business for the better... but MOST large businesses have layers of management that keep the 2 apart... so the shop floor gets lost in the eyes of the CEO because he has ???capable??? management that informs him/her of how the business is doing... that's really my context i guess... and if the bottom line is healthy, who really gives a shit!

Again, my opinion is all based on what i've seen and sometimes what i've personally experienced...

[mashman]

IMHO, you're both right, to a degree. I'm sure there are CEOs that are close to the ideal, are talented and hard-working etc, but there's not a lot of them. Particularly in NZ. I've worked in management positions (some fairly senior) in many companies, and can count on the fingers of one finger the number of genuinely good people in top management I've come across. Actualy that's a bit harsh: one brilliant guy at least, and a few I would call not completely terrible. But I've come across a large number of unprincipled, selfish, dishonest, scheming, mean, ... bastards who do not even slightly fit the ideal mould you describe. All "successful", by and large. And the good guys? Mostly got screwed over by bastards higher up than them in the end. One guy was made to do all the dirty work in the local company, at great personal cost to his conscience, before the Aussie top management pushed him out the door. And if it's not higher management that drives this it's often competition.

Corporations have no conscience. Globalised capitalism as it is today is a race to the bottom, for most of us.

damn, i woulda just said what he said...

[Drunken Monkey]

how come noone saw it coming, playing with the money (and lives) of billions of people.

Lots of people saw it coming, not just leading economists. Most people just ignored their warnings. The super rich didn't get super rich by jumping out of markets early all their lives.