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Thread: Countersteering: Putting theory to practice, my experience

  1. #106
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    My tyres rolling as cones explanation seems to have been mostly ignored (one agreed, one dissented - rest forgotten). Counter steering gets the bike down. What gets you round the corner is the profile of the tyres - they work like cones when you lean over. If you can't lean over - going too fast / corner too tight - countersteer to get the bike down. The tyres do the rest. You don't countersteer round the corner, you do it to get/keep the bike down. Am I the only one who sees this?

    At slow speed, the wheel turns towords the corner, and as you speed up it becomes more difficult to do that (depending upon the mass/speed of the bike - the heavier and the faster the more difficult it becomes).

    As you speed up a little, you have to lean to get the bike down. You could countersteer on purpose but there is no need and the bike would be too responsive - easy to over-cook it. When going faster, it becomes essential to countersteer (but moderate speed for one person is fast for another so difficult to talk about it accurately).

    Look no hands: You can corner at low speed with no hands because the wheel turns as you lean. Try it in a fast corner and you won't be returning here to post the result.
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  2. #107
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    Cones rule OK

    OK - did a search - found a link to the 'cone'.
    http://www.ommriders.org/t/01/sub.jsp?p=3837

    Imagine this: two plastic coffee cups stuck together at the wide ends. They resemble a tyre, right? Now roll 'it' and see what happens.
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    "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, 18th C.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by rok-the-boat View Post
    My tyres rolling as cones explanation seems to have been mostly ignored (one agreed, one dissented - rest forgotten). Counter steering gets the bike down. What gets you round the corner is the profile of the tyres - they work like cones when you lean over. If you can't lean over - going too fast / corner too tight - countersteer to get the bike down. The tyres do the rest. You don't countersteer round the corner, you do it to get/keep the bike down. Am I the only one who sees this?
    I guess I dissent after the reading I have done - but do agree the cone shape greatly assists the process of the turn and the bikes stability. I also agree that counter-steering gets the bike down (and is absolutely essential to a turn).

    Consider a left turn, after you have commenced the turn (counter steering no longer in effect, bike leaned over). Your tyres grip at the bottom of your bike (this bit is important). They are trying to pull the bike around to the left. However the top of your bike (actually the centre of gravity) wants to go straight ahead, and pushes the top of the bike right (actually the centre of gravity wants to go straight ahead, but if your turning left it appears to push the top of the bike to the right). How do you counteract the force trying to tip the top of your bike over? You lean to the left (or rather, you are already leaning at this stage).

    If you did not have a cone shaped tyre your front tyre would have a sudden reduction in grip. Bad. So it needs to be coned shaped to keep as much of a contact patch as possible to stick on the road. But it's not the reason you turn.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    Whoa! Calling Keith Code wrong is very brave of you.
    I've not read his book, but from what I understand of the fixed bars experiment, the idea was to deny bar instigated lean to turn the bike. Since push/pull on the bars wasn't gonna work, the riders had to lean, and indeed the bike did turn. But not enough at the speed they were doing to actually get around the corner they were trying to negotiate..
    We all know that a bike can turn by leaning alone, but not effectively for real-world riding. So how is Keith wrong?
    Mr Code is not wrong, the statement he made IS. A motorcycle can be turned without pushing the inside handle bar. It is not an effective method of cornering, and I have flat out said so a couple of times now.

    I got pissed off that my point was being missed, it's an ego thing.

    It's the statement that is wrong, not the meaning.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by rok-the-boat View Post
    OK - did a search - found a link to the 'cone'.
    http://www.ommriders.org/t/01/sub.jsp?p=3837

    Imagine this: two plastic coffee cups stuck together at the wide ends. They resemble a tyre, right? Now roll 'it' and see what happens.
    If this were true bikes would only be able to make turns of one fixed radius,And bicycles couldn't turn at all.
    The cone theory is just a very poor attempt by some people to explain pneumatic trail.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Mr Code is not wrong, the statement he made IS. A motorcycle can be turned without pushing the inside handle bar. It is not an effective method of cornering, and I have flat out said so a couple of times now.

    I got pissed off that my point was being missed, it's an ego thing.

    It's the statement that is wrong, not the meaning.
    Does he categorically state that a bike "can't turn without bar input"? Or does he mean "without countersteering"? World of difference in those...

    This is how countersteering works when riding no-hands. In order to turn left, a rider applies a momentary torque, either at the seat via the legs or in the torso that causes the bike itself to lean to the right, called counter lean by some authors.[3] The combined center of mass of the bike and rider is only lowered, of course. However, if the front of the bike is free to swivel about its steering axis, the lean to the right will cause it to steer to the right by some combination of gyroscopic precession (as mentioned above), ground reaction forces, gravitational force on an off-axis center of mass, or simply the inertia of an off-axis center of mass, depending on the exact geometry and mass distribution of the particular bike, and the amount of torque and the speed at which it is applied.[1][9]

    This countersteering to the right causes the ground contact to move to the right of the center of mass, as the bike moves forward, thus generating a leftward lean. Finally the front end steers to the left and the bike enters the left turn. The amount of leftward steering necessary to balance the leftward lean appropriate for the forward speed and radius of the turn is controlled by the torque generated by the rider, again either at the seat or in the torso.

    To straighten back out of the turn, the rider simply reverses the procedure for entering it: cause the bike to lean farther to the left; this causes it to steer farther to the left which moves the wheel contact patches farther to the left, eventually reducing the leftward lean and exiting the turn.

    The reason this no-hands steering is less effective on heavy bikes, such as motorcycles, is that the rider weighs so much less than the bike that leaning the torso with respect to the bike does not cause the bike to lean far enough to generate anything but the shallowest turns. No-hands riders may be able to keep a heavy bike centered in a lane and negotiate shallow highway turns, but not much else.
    The bolded bits I'm not so sure about. Thinking about that part of the process, I come up with visualising an upright tyre rolling forward...tyre's contact patch is dead centre...turn the tyre to the right (still upright) and it resists that turn...it wants to keep going in the original direction...which means that the forces acting on the contact patch move it forward (in the original direction of travel)...effectively, the patch moves towards the outside of the turn (ie the left side of the tyre)...the whole thing is now quite unstable...it wants to lean to the left, while the tyre is actually pointing to the right...because the forces acting on the contact patch are greater than those acting on the tyre's facing direction, the left lean turns the tyre's direction of travel back towards the left...so now the tyre and all forces acting on it are once more in balance, it happily keeps rolling forwards..because the contact patch is now off-center (to the left) and because of gravity, the tyre is actually trying to fall over, but the gyroscopic effect of it revolving tries to keep it upright...as long as those two forces are in balance, the tyre will describe an arc to the left as it moves forward...how tight that arc is, depends on the amount of force applied when the tyre was first turned, coupled with the speed of rotation...for a given radius of turn, the faster the tyre rotates, the more force is required to shift the contact patch further off the centre line...which is why body steering works at low speeds, but decreases in effectiveness as the speed increases...requiring the push (or pull) on the bars (what we call countersteering)...which, at higher still speeds, leads to using both bar- and body- steering (leaning off the bike).
    It's all about maintaining a balance of the forces acting on the bike, and managing the results of any change of input (rider or bike), in order to have control over where the bike goes.
    Last edited by MSTRS; 3rd February 2010 at 09:56.
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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    The bolded bits I'm not so sure about. Thinking about that part of the process, I come up with visualising an upright tyre rolling forward...tyre's contact patch is dead centre...turn the tyre to the right (still upright) and it resists that turn...it wants to keep going in the original direction...which means that the forces acting on the contact patch move it forward (in the original direction of travel)...effectively, the patch moves towards the outside of the turn (ie the left side of the tyre)...the whole thing is now quite unstable...it wants to lean to the left, while the tyre is actually pointing to the right...
    Here is my take on reading it. The tyre turns right, which thanks to the tyres grip wants to pull the bottom of the bike right. It only acts on the bottom of the tyre because that is obviously were the contact patch is with the ground.
    However the forces continue to act on the centre of mass. Lets pretend that is at a place we call the "top" of the bike. That force wants to continue going straight ahead (nothing has acted to change that direction yet). So the bottom of the bike is being pulled right, the top is being pushed straight ahead, which forces the bike to tip over to the left.
    Now that the centre of mass is leaning over the left hand side of the bike, you stop counter steering and start steering left to prevent yourself from falling over.


    The article does mention the gyroscopic affect that you speak off, but says the effect is not large (in their example, it has a 12% effect). They said the gyroscopic effect is controlled by the mass of the wheel, the mass of the rider, and the angular velocity of the wheel.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    Here is my take on reading it. The tyre turns right, which thanks to the tyres grip wants to pull the bottom of the bike right. It only acts on the bottom of the tyre because that is obviously were the contact patch is with the ground.
    However the forces continue to act on the centre of mass. Lets pretend that is at a place we call the "top" of the bike. That force wants to continue going straight ahead (nothing has acted to change that direction yet). So the bottom of the bike is being pulled right, the top is being pushed straight ahead, which forces the bike to tip over to the left.
    Now that the centre of mass is leaning over the left hand side of the bike, you stop counter steering and start steering left to prevent yourself from falling over.

    That's about right. But at no point does the contact patch move to the side of intial push....when that happens the tyre remains upright...the fact that the top of the bike wants to continue straight ahead, but the tyre is pointing (to the right) means that the patch is moved to the furthest forward contact area of the bottom of the tyre...that is, to the left of the tyre centre...that is, the part actually touching the road.
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    Here is my take on reading it. The tyre turns right, which thanks to the tyres grip wants to pull the bottom of the bike right. It only acts on the bottom of the tyre because that is obviously were the contact patch is with the ground.
    However the forces continue to act on the centre of mass. Lets pretend that is at a place we call the "top" of the bike. That force wants to continue going straight ahead (nothing has acted to change that direction yet). So the bottom of the bike is being pulled right, the top is being pushed straight ahead, which forces the bike to tip over to the left.
    Now that the centre of mass is leaning over the left hand side of the bike, you stop counter steering and start steering left to prevent yourself from falling over.
    Exactly
    10 chars

  10. #115
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    I've tried to draw what I'm visualising...
    The grey oblong is the tyre, the black oval is the contact patch, the red dot is the point of greatest contact with the road, the green lines show direction of travel and patch centre.
    The red dot 'wants' to stay in the centre of the black oval, but what the rider does when steering is move the dot, whereby the bike/tyre adjusts to bring that dot back to the centre.
    First one is straight ahead, all forces in balance.
    Second one shows what happens with a nudge forwards on the left bar.
    Third one shows the tyre moving back into a state of balance.
    Fourth one shows that balance achieved. Which is where it will remain, unless more input occurs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by MSTRS; 3rd February 2010 at 10:38.
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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixie View Post
    If this were true bikes would only be able to make turns of one fixed radius,And bicycles couldn't turn at all.
    The cone theory is just a very poor attempt by some people to explain pneumatic trail.
    The cone is not fixed, as you lean over the cone angle changes. Read up on it - the stuff is out there.
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  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by rok-the-boat View Post
    The cone is not fixed, as you lean over the cone angle changes. Read up on it - the stuff is out there.
    Counter-steering files... the truth is out there.

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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    Mr Code is not wrong, the statement he made IS. A motorcycle can be turned without pushing the inside handle bar. It is not an effective method of cornering, and I have flat out said so a couple of times now.

    I got pissed off that my point was being missed, it's an ego thing.

    It's the statement that is wrong, not the meaning.

    You should know by now Drew the level of a) intelligence and b) practical riding skills you're up against in this thread.

    I'd hold my hand up and let these people talk about shit until they;re blue in the face, Keith code told D path to keep 40 60 throttle control... !!! ( imagine whats going through that poor blokes head ALL THE TIME, as he pootles along trying to keep his bike from falling over ... "40 60 .. 40 .. 60.. 40.. 60.. OH FARK..... up hill.. now how do i compensate...... does not compute.... exterminate, exterminate.. exterminate!!!!!")


    Enough said mate, walk away and let them think they know what they like, your jobs not to convert idiots into rational thinkers/do-ers








    :slap:

  14. #119
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    Read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

    Explains the physics, the natural Vs over-thinking approach, the no-hands, the lean and the rest of it. It cites a number of refs including a link to Code's no BS machine.

    Read all the refs too, then go out & ride:

    1. ^ a b c d Fajans, Joel (July 2000). "Steering in bicycles and motorcycles" (PDF). American Journal of Physics 68 (7): 654–659. doi:10.1119/1.19504. http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans...eerBikeAJP.PDF. Retrieved 2006-08-04.
    2. ^ Cocco, Gaetano (2004). Motorcycle Design and Technology. Motorbooks. p. 25. ISBN 978-0-7603-1990-1.
    3. ^ a b Foale, Tony (2006). Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design, the Art and Science (2nd ed.). Tony Foale Designs. p. 4–7. ISBN 978-84-933286-3-4.
    4. ^ a b Gromer, Cliff (2001-02-01). "STEER GEAR So how do you actually turn a motorcycle?". Popular Mechanics. http://www.popularmechanics.com/outd...s/1277436.html. Retrieved 2006-08-07.
    5. ^ Jones, David (1970). "The Stability of the Bicycle" (PDF). http://www.phys.lsu.edu/faculty/gonz...9no9p51_56.pdf. Retrieved 2009-03-31.
    6. ^ Evangelou, S, 2004 "The Control and Stability Analysis of Two-Wheeled Road Vehicles", PhD Thesis, Imperial College London
    7. ^ a b Wilson, David Gordon; Jim Papadopoulos (2004). Bicycling Science (Third ed.). The MIT Press. pp. 270–272. ISBN 0-262-73154-1.
    8. ^ a b c Cossalter, Vittore (2006). Motorcycle Dynamics (Second ed.). Lulu.com. pp. 241–342. ISBN 978-1-4303-0861-4.
    9. ^ Brandt, Jobst (1997-09-16). "What keeps the bicycle upright?". sheldonbrown.com. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/gyro.html. Retrieved 2007-10-17.
    10. ^ Forester, John (1993). Effective Cycling (Sixth ed.). The MIT Press. pp. 204–205. ISBN 0-262-56070-4.
    11. ^ "Emergency: Instant Turn". League of American Bicyclists. http://www.bikeleague.org/resources/...cellaneous.php. Retrieved 2008-08-07.
    12. ^ Jon Taylor & Stefan Bartlett (2009). How to be a Better Rider. Institute of Advanced Motorists. ISBN 978-0956223913.
    13. ^ "Novice Motorcycle Riders to Learn Positive Steering". Biker 24/7 News. 29 June 2009. http://www.biker247.com/News/10785.asp. Retrieved 2009-12-31.
    14. ^ Crouch, Tom D. (1989). The Bishop's Boys. New York: W. W. Norton. p. 170. ISBN 0-393-30695-X. http://books.google.com/books?id=ytw...um=4&ct=result.
    15. ^ Kelly, Fred C. (1989). The Wright Brothers. Courier Dover Publications. pp. 297–299. ISBN 9780486260563.

    [edit] External links

    * Balance and Steering, by Tony Foale
    * "No B.S. Machine" physical experimentation

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smifffy View Post
    Yeah I read that - half OK, half not in my opinion. Just because it is on a Wiki does not make it all 100% right. I learned what I know years ago. Can you corner tightly at high speed no hands? Why not? Have you ridden a big heavy 1979s 4 cyl around a corner at high speed on a regular basis? Have you ridden fast off road, speedway counter steering style? (try doing it slow - you need to get to a certain speed break thru point - impossible on a road bike unless you have serious rear wheel spin - anyway, this method of steering is different - more like rear wheel steering if you ask me). I come from 35 years of biking and learned 'my paradigm' years back. I could be wrong, often am, but am not convinced to change my thinking at all. Luckily, our bikes get around corners regardless of how we think we do it ...
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