Long bike, short bike, classic bike, modern, WTF?

**Kickaha** · 4th February 2010, 20:26

Originally Posted by scrivy

So with your logic, a drag strip would need truck loads of skill to twist a throttle????

I think those pies have seriously affected your brain dude.........

Drags would probably have more skill than you realise, you used to beat us in straightline speed so your skill level must have been low as well

**jellywrestler** · 5th February 2010, 06:43

Originally Posted by sidecar bob

Usual sidecar shit talk thread, & nobody actually answered the original posters question properly.
A pre '63 classic must obviously run a engine first produced prior to '63 & full size motorcycle rims with drum brakes. There are other rules, but thats it in a nutshell.
Pre '76 classic may run car type tyres & disc brakes up to a certain size. All machines must retain the front exit position (passenger emerging from in front of the sidewheel when turning left) but may have dual exit (passenger may swing behind the sidewheel)
Front exiting is very challenging, like going poos while wearing stilts, with the king of front exit being the late Brett Sproull.

jeez Bob,
thats a very informative post pretty backed up with technical details etc, is someone else using your login?

To add to this there's several options of front end set ups. Long bikes most of the time use centre hub steering, with the occasional one using more conventional forks, earls type. Short bikes more often than not use the fork set up, again earls style, with some of them having centre hub steering.

**jellywrestler** · 5th February 2010, 07:01

The early Sidecars were simple, road or race bikes with a Sidecar chassis and flat deck bolted to them; there were no modifications to the original bikes with maybe the exception of the Gearing. Sidecar riders, sometimes referred to as Drivers, occasionally entered the same bike in both Solo and Sidecar classes simply bolting and unbolting the Sidecar between classes entered! Some Riders even had two sidecars to go with their bike, a Left and a Right chassis depending on whether the Circuit of the day was predominately a Left or a Right hand track. It didn’t take long before the whole ‘Outfit’ needed a makeover to gain that Edge we all look for to lower their lap times.
Streamlining started appearing early on, initially on the sidecar and as time went on the bikes started to feature what has always been an important part of getting through the air efficiently as possible. The added bonus of this was the Outfits started to have a bit more style and of course became a bit more diverse too.
It wasn’t long before the third wheel started to earn its keep in the braking department too, getting an even spread of braking over the whole three, all of the time, has proved a challenge over the years and is one of the most entertaining traits of Sidecars.
The overall height of these early Outfits made them unstable. While many other features didn’t help with the stability this was one of the first thing the lads looked at. Smaller rims, often 16 inch (19 inch was usually standard), were laced onto the hubs lowering the whole unit, reducing the height of the centre of gravity and getting them round the corners quicker with less chance of flipping over. It didn’t take long for wider rims to find their way onto the bikes as well; meaning wider tyres where the benefits of extra rubber on the road are well known.
One of next things to get the treatment was the fuel tanks. Normally they’re on top of a bike that is designed to lean over and still stay within the centre line. When a bike is leaned over the centrifugal forces of the Fuel tank and the motion lotion it carries amount to zero. Sidecars don’t lean over and this added load increased the centrifugal forces hindering its cornering ability. Moving it into the Sidecar was ideal for two reasons. Lowering it to just off the ground helped the overall Outfits ‘Centre of Gravity’ to be lower and putting it in the Sidecar spread the load helping keep them on the ground a bit more, again increasing cornering speed. Various locations in the sidecar were used over time, up front and low down, right underneath, tucked into the rear wheel and in the Sidecar mudguard unit. This relocation meant fuel had to be pumped to the Carburettors and introduced another fallible part to the machines, the dreaded Fuel pump.
Over the years Sidecars have continued to get lower and the tyres wider, nowadays 250mm of rubber is pretty well standard for the Rear with a little less on the front and sides. Wheels did get as small as 10 inches for a while but are now usually 13 inches.
Somewhere among all these upgrades they became 'Kneelers', instead of the rider sitting on them like on a normal motorcycle, they knelt down, Doggy style, if you know what I mean.
Stronger frames smartened up the handling too as the early frames were standard Motorcycle ones designed to lean and carry just one rider, they often handled like a Truckload of Spastics when pushed around the bends upright; with twice as much lard to carry…
Next on the list of improvements was the front end. Lowering the outfits had meant Telescopic forks were harder to accommodate. Not a problem though as these forks weren’t the most suitable type of suspension for them anyway.

While those with an intimate knowledge of the Rake and Trail design of the Solo’s front ends will understand how it all fits together, this isn’t so on Sidecars. Indeed the rake needs to be substantially less and Trail almost non-existent. Earles Forks like those used on early BMWs was the go although some bikes like the famous Vincents featured forks that were easily adjusted in this area to run a sidecar. Back to the Earles Forks. These were ideal at the time and also meant the whole unit could be lowered again, another gain.
Overall suspension became stiffer too not having to cope with the added weight increase put on this area that a leaning Solo had to; sometimes as much as 50% more weight at the apex of a corner. The front was stiffer while often shocks were ditched at the rear and either a Rigid set up used or a simple rubber block did the business. As time moved on it rear shocks were fitted to all
Sidecars though. Shocks have been tried briefly on some sidecar wheels too, turning the whole Units into Pogo sticks, not a good look!
While all this was happening the overall relationship between the three wheels was also looked at as the faster they went and the better the tyre traction became the more the Sidecar wheel tended to steer the Outfit where it wanted to so more was needed up front.
Over time the Earles Fork set-up started to show its weaknesses. While it was ideal when it was first applied the wider the tyres became the more its shortcomings started to come through. As the wheel was turned through its axis of the Rake the tyre contact patch with the Track became less. Not what was needed when trying to get around a corner, given too that the Sidecar wheel mentioned in the last paragraph wanted to steer the bike straight ahead too. Imagine a wide flat tyre on your bike and turn it side to side you’ll get the picture. To understand what was needed we need to look no further than the good old Shopping Trolley. Shopping trolleys are one of this worlds greatest inventions. In the Early days they were used not only for shopping but were a great training aid in teaching Women how to walk on their hind legs! They also are a good source in understanding steering traits of a unit that doesn’t lean and how tyre contact is constant through a turn. Centre-Hub steering was the solution, which is basically what is used on Automobiles. This set up allowed the front tyre to remain in full contact with the track as it turned.
As the Sidecars got faster the Swingers were having trouble changing from side to side fast enough. Swingers had to climb off the back on corners like the Esses at Wanganui, the first being a right-hander; move forward on the deck and then swing out in front of the Sidecar wheel (assuming it was a left handed Sidecar) for the left–hander. These were known as Front Exit Sidecars. There simply wasn’t enough time to do all this so they had to compromise always favouring hold the unit down on the left-handers.
Compromising in Racing means just one thing; you’re not getting the full capacity out of your machinery and you’re not going as fast as you could. Swinging behind the Sidecar wheel was the answer. While this sounds logical moving the wheel forward compromised other aspects of the whole Outfits steering but it was the only way to get the Swinger from side to side fast enough for. In short there were still compromises but they were considered less than the ones just mentioned
Tyres were meanwhile improving and of course technology gave us better braking to go with the tyres and the whole lot were going faster, handling better and stopping faster too.
The next big change which saw Sidecars take the biggest step away from their original design was to move the power plant. Instead of being in front and under the Rider some folks started to put them behind them. Designers decided that the whole unit would benefit from being longer; and lower. The truth is that it was about as far away as you could get from those early Outfits we saw, but the power brakes and tyres available saw it as the next logical step. Rear-engined Outfits became known in Sidecar lingo as ‘Long Bikes’ or Worms to some folks, with of course the other ones now becoming ‘Short Bikes’
Jim Ashcroft (Ashcroft Engineering) was the first in New Zealand to build a Long Bike using “conventional” Earles forks and a tubular steel frame and an air-cooled engine. Wanganui’s Steve Roberts, the Master behind Dave Hiscocks Monocoque Aluminium chassis Formula One Suzuki and the Awesome ‘Plastic Fantastic’, followed soon after with a state of art aluminium, monocoque, centre-hub, rear water-cooled engined outfit, with a hand beaten aluminium fairing to boot. The Roberts designed unit was built for Wellington’s Andy Kippen and was simply state of art at the time.. In reality Andy’s Outfit didn’t handle as well as it was originally hoped. The NZACU (now MNZ) rules of the time limited the overall length and the triangular relationship of the three wheels that was sought after couldn’t happen. Andy’s forceful riding skills overcame this to earn him three back to back New Zealand Championships on the Steve Roberts designed unit. Soon the NZACU rules were altered and Sidecars were built to take full advantage of the longer chassis dimensions favoured at World Championship level, and handled accordingly.
A one-off attempt saw an NZ Sidecar appear with the Rider sitting like one does in a car; or go-cart. This position was perceived to change Sidecars from something evolved from a Motorcycle and Sidecar; to a three wheeled car hybrid, and rule changes stomped on it quickly. The arguments at the time were intense, after all that’s how you ride on of them Harley Donaldson’s but in reality it was the right thing for the sport to still retain a link with the original Outfits I reckon. Some years later an Australian team Neville and Glen Hazelman rode the Cemetery Circuit on one of these machines, taking advantage of rules allowing visiting sidecars to run their own countries rules. Those who may remember some wickedly fast wins they had, but it just wasn’t the same… ( they still hold the lap record at Ruapuna set in 1995, its now 2010!)

**jellywrestler** · 5th February 2010, 07:01

nothing to see here folks, somehow I duplicated my last post so have disposed of it...

**Kickaha** · 5th February 2010, 07:12

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

A one-off attempt saw an NZ Sidecar appear with the Rider sitting like one does in a car; or go-cart. This position was perceived to change Sidecars from something evolved from a Motorcycle and Sidecar; to a three wheeled car hybrid, and rule changes stomped on it quickly.

Who built that and what happened to it?

**slowpoke** · 5th February 2010, 07:18

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

The early Sidecars were simple, road or race bikes with a Sidecar chassis and flat deck bolted to them........

......... Some years later an Australian team Neville and Glen Hazelman rode the Cemetery Circuit on one of these machines, taking advantage of rules allowing visiting sidecars to run their own countries rules. Those who may remember some wickedly fast wins they had, but it just wasn’t the same… ( they still hold the lap record at Ruapuna set in 1995, its now 2010!)

Prolly the most informative post on just about anything I've read on here, thanks mate. Almost makes up for that ferkin' avatar......(shudder)

**Big Col** · 5th February 2010, 07:23

Very informative thanks.

**jellywrestler** · 5th February 2010, 07:28

Originally Posted by Kickaha

Who built that and what happened to it?

Warwick Jamieson, interesting concept with roll cage etc, filipped at the end of the front straight at Wanganui and I think that after that it was pretty well retired

**Rob Taylor** · 5th February 2010, 20:01

Originally Posted by scrivy

Mate, it's like this:
Would you rather have sex with a raw, blindingly fast, brutal, forgiving, powerful, out of control woman, or,

an upherself, high society, temperamental, high maintenance woman that only pretends to be better than a common skank, but costs you over 6-8 times as much to buy and also to run.........

You decide!

thankyou for clearing that up

.I didnt realise we had a choice

,,,,well thats what my misses reckons

**Kickaha** · 6th February 2010, 16:41

Here we have two pictures, one is the pinnacle of sidecar engineering in a "Long bike" LCR

The other is Scrivy and SidecarBob on their short bike

**Kickaha** · 6th February 2010, 17:38

A few manufacturers links

http://www.lcr-sidecar.com/index2.php
http://rsr-sidecar.de/website.php?id=/chassis.htm
http://www.windlesidecars.co.uk/
http://www.sidecar.nu/index_chassis.htm
http://www.mrequipe.net/

Overseas the short bikes are primarily F2 600cc bikes and the Windle site has bare chassis pics to make it easy to see the difference, the long bikes owe more to racecar monocoque construction than to motorcycle, MR Equipe website also has some classic BMW pics