Zero alcohol for drivers under 20.

[Toaster]

It's a close to zero limit at the moment anyway, one beer and you're over, so just making it zero seems sensible.

Will raising the driving age reduce accidents for inexperienced drivers, or will it just create older inexperienced drivers having accidents? Attitude is just as much as of a determining factor as age, and there are plenty of 20 or 30 or even 70 year olds that drive like retards and are possibly more dangerous than a careful 15 year old.

Ain't that the truth. Maturity and sensible behaviour often have little nexus to age itself. Just look at some people on here!

It does not take much at all to exceed the youth limit for drink driving, so removing it altogether at least takes away the doubt factor of "will I or wont I be okay" to have a drink or two then drive. So many factors determine the result and the actual number of drinks consumed is merely one of many factors. Its the numbers that come out of the EBA machine or blood test result that matters the most.

[Mikkel]

So you mean introduce and tighten laws.......
sorry I am confused, as you have just said the fluffy stuff around the laws.
Age - law
Insurance - law
License - law
Education - law......

That kinda reads like a large contradiction - sounds like you are first saying laws aren't going to fix anything, then suggest a whole heap of new laws? could you elaborate?

I believe someone was calling for making the restrictions more restrictive and the penalties harder. My point is, adding more of the same shit to the pile is only going to make the pile bigger. There are several fundamental changes that could be applied to NZ's handling of driver licensing and traffic enforcement which have been in place for decades in those other countries with which we like to compare ourselves. You know the ones, those that have significantly lower road-tolls per capita, just for a start.

For everyone who says the driving should be raised, maybe consider the people who don't live in the middle of the cities and how their lives might be affected by such a change.

As incredible as it may sound, people got away with living in the middle of nowhere before we got cars. Give kids over 15 the option of getting a moped license, that'll give them something to move around on. As for young drivers today, most of them do not live out in the middle of nowhere.

It's a close to zero limit at the moment anyway, one beer and you're over, so just making it zero seems sensible.

I see your point. However, with a zero limit you could loose your license by having had a wine-based sauce for dinner. The breathalyser catching a whiff of your aftershave? Having had a beer in the afternoon and the driving 2 hours later. Some mouthwashes have a small amount of alcohol in them as well...

The problem is not people having a couple of beers over dinner and driving an hour or two later - it's the people who goes out, gets sloshed and then drive themselves and their mates home from town. No setting the limit at zero is going to prevent that. Hell, you could put hanging as the minimum penalty for driving with a blood alcohol above zero and there would still be people doing it...

Will raising the driving age reduce accidents for inexperienced drivers, or will it just create older inexperienced drivers having accidents? Attitude is just as much as of a determining factor as age, and there are plenty of 20 or 30 or even 70 year olds that drive like retards and are possibly more dangerous than a careful 15 year old.

Indeed, but most of these 20, 30 or even 70 year old drivers have never been taught to take motoring seriously. However, generally speaking, a great deal of maturing happens in those last years of puberty - an 18 year old will, on average, be significantly more mature than a 15 year old. ...many 15 year olds either are not at all careful or they are so insecure they shouldn't be on the road in the first place. Both are unacceptable.

Ain't that the truth. Maturity and sensible behaviour often have little nexus to age itself. Just look at some people on here!

Maturity is many things. One of them is recognising that your actions have very real consequences - another is actually accepting that you are responsible for those potential consequences.

[marty]

It's a close to zero limit at the moment anyway, one beer and you're over, so just making it zero seems sensible.

Will raising the driving age reduce accidents for inexperienced drivers, or will it just create older inexperienced drivers having accidents? Attitude is just as much as of a determining factor as age, and there are plenty of 20 or 30 or even 70 year olds that drive like retards and are possibly more dangerous than a careful 15 year old.

In a totally scientific experiment a couple of weeks ago, my 18 year old son drunk 4 Stellas in an hour before he blew 150 (tested on friendly Police equipment). He only ate chips while he was drinking. Don't for a minute think 1 drink puts ANYONE over.

[neels]

In a totally scientific experiment a couple of weeks ago, my 18 year old son drunk 4 Stellas in an hour before he blew 150 (tested on friendly Police equipment). He only ate chips while he was drinking. Don't for a minute think 1 drink puts ANYONE over.

So he was right on the limit after 4 quick beers, do you think he might have been over if you'd tested him again later, or with a blood test after an hour at the cop shop?

And does that mean you would be happy for him to drive after 4 beers in an hour?

I'm quite happy with my 15 year old working on the understanding that one beer could put him over the limit so he shouldn't drink anything before driving.

[avgas]

There are several fundamental changes that could be applied to NZ's handling of driver licensing and traffic enforcement which have been in place for decades in those other countries with which we like to compare ourselves. You know the ones, those that have significantly lower road-tolls per capita, just for a start......
....Maturity is many things. One of them is recognising that your actions have very real consequences - another is actually accepting that you are responsible for those potential consequences.

hehe I like you - you think this place is fixable. Not only in NZ on the downward spiral staircase, it tripped and started falling 10 years ago.
Now we have to beat the fundamentals into the morons skulls with a really big stick.
While I dream of that day that might change - you have to realise that people were complaining about smoking in the 80's..........

[motor_mayhem]

I believe someone was calling for making the restrictions more restrictive and the penalties harder. My point is, adding more of the same shit to the pile is only going to make the pile bigger. There are several fundamental changes that could be applied to NZ's handling of driver licensing and traffic enforcement which have been in place for decades in those other countries with which we like to compare ourselves. You know the ones, those that have significantly lower road-tolls per capita, just for a start.

I don't know if you can compare us to anyone only because of the quality and winding nature of some of our roads as a contributing factor.

As incredible as it may sound, people got away with living in the middle of nowhere before we got cars. Give kids over 15 the option of getting a moped license, that'll give them something to move around on. As for young drivers today, most of them do not live out in the middle of nowhere.

At the times before cars were around, businesses(banks and post offices etc.) tended to have outlets in every little village, with the advent of cars they now don't. Mopeds would be worse - someone has pointed out in another thread one of the biggest problems is speed differential between objects like vehicles. Restrict vehicle engine size and modifications might work better. And you would choose to support a "Punish the minority because their situation is different" to placate the majority (which may not fix the issue)? Does this sound like an ACC idea?

I see your point. However, with a zero limit you could loose your license by having had a wine-based sauce for dinner. The breathalyser catching a whiff of your aftershave? Having had a beer in the afternoon and the driving 2 hours later. Some mouthwashes have a small amount of alcohol in them as well...

The problem is not people having a couple of beers over dinner and driving an hour or two later - it's the people who goes out, gets sloshed and then drive themselves and their mates home from town. No setting the limit at zero is going to prevent that. Hell, you could put hanging as the minimum penalty for driving with a blood alcohol above zero and there would still be people doing it...

Agree

Indeed, but most of these 20, 30 or even 70 year old drivers have never been taught to take motoring seriously. However, generally speaking, a great deal of maturing happens in those last years of puberty - an 18 year old will, on average, be significantly more mature than a 15 year old. ...many 15 year olds either are not at all careful or they are so insecure they shouldn't be on the road in the first place. Both are unacceptable.

Blanket punishment again?

In a totally scientific experiment a couple of weeks ago, my 18 year old son drunk 4 Stellas in an hour before he blew 150 (tested on friendly Police equipment). He only ate chips while he was drinking. Don't for a minute think 1 drink puts ANYONE over.

Depends who the subject is. Being very fit I doubt I could have more than 1 if that (so I don't).

[Mikkel]

hehe I like you - you think this place is fixable. Not only in NZ on the downward spiral staircase, it tripped and started falling 10 years ago.
Now we have to beat the fundamentals into the morons skulls with a really big stick.
While I dream of that day that might change - you have to realise that people were complaining about smoking in the 80's..........

Of course it is fixable. All it takes is that people stop pissing around and actually get their arse in gear and do something about it. But it requires honest self-examination and a willingness to challenge and abolish non-functional doctrines. It's only a matter of how long it takes before things turn shitty enough that people realise they have to wake up...

I don't know if you can compare us to anyone only because of the quality and winding nature of some of our roads as a contributing factor.

Of course you can compare NZ to other places. NZ isn't the only place in the world with winding roads - as for the quality of the roads, that's one of these doctrines that needs to be abolished. The "we can't afford to do it properly right now so we'll do a half-arsed job that will cost more down the track"-mentality needs to go. In with asphalt and out with grit.

At the times before cars were around, businesses(banks and post offices etc.) tended to have outlets in every little village, with the advent of cars they now don't. Mopeds would be worse - someone has pointed out in another thread one of the biggest problems is speed differential between objects like vehicles. Restrict vehicle engine size and modifications might work better. And you would choose to support a "Punish the minority because their situation is different" to placate the majority (which may not fix the issue)? Does this sound like an ACC idea?

Blanket punishment again?

First of all, operating a motor vehicle is a privilege not a fundamental right - as such limiting the group to whom such a privilege is extended has nothing to do with blanket punishment or targeting minorities. Or do you also think that 9-year olds are hard done by for not being allowed to vote, drink, drive and work on equal terms with yourself? Everything you consider a right is most likely a privilege granted to you a guy with a gun.

Secondly, the pre-18 year old drivers can cry me a river. If they need to go to the bank or the post office they can either get on their bike/moped/horse/bus or get their parents to give them a lift. Maybe if kids weren't taxied to school in mobile fortresses they'd be able to handle such stressful situations. It isn't a problem - there's plenty of countries with extensive rural areas where kids aren't allowed to get their license until they turn 18.

Third point, plenty of people survive walking or biking along the road every single day. A moped is - on average - faster than a bicycle and therefore even less dangerous. As someone has remarked on here, perhaps that would teach them a thing or two about appreciation for consideration, before they get their own mobile fortress for taking their own kids to school.

[avgas]

But it requires honest self-examination and a willingness to challenge and abolish non-functional doctrines.

Sadly that is a dead art here my friend. Take the financial crisis. Bunch of people who thought they were 'swindled' out of there money - where the evidence showed they never questioned where it was going.
Then there are the riders here who believe that 'its not their fault'.
Yep unfortunately you are preaching to the indoctrinated here my friend, I just question if your word will be heard by those who really needs it.

[Mikkel]

Sadly that is a dead art here my friend. Take the financial crisis. Bunch of people who thought they were 'swindled' out of there money - where the evidence showed they never questioned where it was going.

It's a lost art everywhere where people have become too well off to give a shit about anything and anyone but their's and themselves. Maybe, if the financial crisis becomes bad enough that we will have to depend upon each other once more, maybe then that will push us in the right direction.

Then there are the riders here who believe that 'its not their fault'.
Yep unfortunately you are preaching to the indoctrinated here my friend, I just question if your word will be heard by those who really needs it.

Yep, and then we are back to my post about maturity - more specifically the second part of the sentence.

[Genestho]

I believe someone was calling for making the restrictions more restrictive and the penalties harder. My point is, adding more of the same shit to the pile is only going to make the pile bigger. There are several fundamental changes that could be applied to NZ's handling of driver licensing and traffic enforcement which have been in place for decades in those other countries with which we like to compare ourselves. You know the ones, those that have significantly lower road-tolls per capita, just for a start.



As incredible as it may sound, people got away with living in the middle of nowhere before we got cars. Give kids over 15 the option of getting a moped license, that'll give them something to move around on. As for young drivers today, most of them do not live out in the middle of nowhere.



I see your point. However, with a zero limit you could loose your license by having had a wine-based sauce for dinner. The breathalyser catching a whiff of your aftershave? Having had a beer in the afternoon and the driving 2 hours later. Some mouthwashes have a small amount of alcohol in them as well...

The problem is not people having a couple of beers over dinner and driving an hour or two later - it's the people who goes out, gets sloshed and then drive themselves and their mates home from town. No setting the limit at zero is going to prevent that. Hell, you could put hanging as the minimum penalty for driving with a blood alcohol above zero and there would still be people doing it...



Indeed, but most of these 20, 30 or even 70 year old drivers have never been taught to take motoring seriously. However, generally speaking, a great deal of maturing happens in those last years of puberty - an 18 year old will, on average, be significantly more mature than a 15 year old. ...many 15 year olds either are not at all careful or they are so insecure they shouldn't be on the road in the first place. Both are unacceptable.



Maturity is many things. One of them is recognising that your actions have very real consequences - another is actually accepting that you are responsible for those potential consequences.

Most countries (if not all..) already enacting this legislation, alongside other policies - enforce a 0.02 level to cover these wine sauce/ aftershave/mouthwash/residual alcohol possibilities.

The thing is this legislation removes all confusion for youth. Currently there is a limit, which enables youth to drink and drive.
There will be youth able to respect this change, and there will be youth that won't, that - will also be an indication of wider issues.
As a parent i do have a sense of relief that the confusion is removed.

I do believe there does need to be meaningful and combined focus from parents, schools and education groups regarding roadsafety and the consequences in general.
There is some debate from researchers that alcohol "related' youth crashes are merely part and parcel of a lack of understanding of consequences, or understanding how these impact on the roads around them due to the teenagers inability to cognitively grasp these concepts...

[steve_t]

Has there been any suggestion as to what changes will be made for people under 25 years old (besides alcohol)?

[Genestho]

Has there been any suggestion as to what changes will be made for people under 25 years old (besides alcohol)?

There is debate on raising the license age, extending the learner license period, removing access to high powered cars, increasing number of hours young drivers must spend under adult supervision, there is a report that says the best way for teenagers to learn good habits is to spend at least 200 hundred hours with parents. Also things like raising purchase age for alcohol could come into play...possibly even compulsary 3rd party insurance too!!!

[{.bLanK}G_o_D]

Everybody that thinks this zero alcohol limit wont achieve anything is fucked.
Teens are generally immature and don't think about the consequences, allowing any amount of alcohol is just an open door for, "one more won't hurt"
If they know from the start the "Zero limit" then it will detour more teens from having that first drink.
The only problem I see with this new law is it's capped at 20 years old.
We've had it drummed into our heads the last 10 years that "If you drink and drive" bla bla bla. But then again it's ok to have one or two drinks.
There is a big difference in the way different people react to the effects of alcohol. Some people can drink 3 times the limit and still be perfectly sober (sober but over the limit), on the other hand some people get drunk on half a glass of beer (drunk but under the limit).
I admit I've done some dumb shit in the past, one of them being drinking at the clock tower on Thursdays after work when I was working at foodies. I got breath tested on night on the way home, I was sure I was going down, no doubt reeked of piss, vision was that kinda slightly fuzzy "yeah I'm pissed" feeling. Had been drinking at an average pace for several hours. Honestly, I should not have been driving that night, I could have quite easily caused an accident. But I passed the breathalyzer to my amazement. Same thing happened while in a mates car, he says as we're pulling up to a checkpoint, "fuck I'm so not gonna pass" and he did.

If you eat food with alcohol, your body can process the alcohol faster.
Too many variables for my liking.
My vote would be a Zero alcohol limit for all motorists of all ages.

Short sighted - possibly. However the peripheral stuff can happen later.
The only thing bad I can see out of all of this is the fact they haven't stated the total plan e.g.
- Zero alcohol for drivers under 20
- Half alcohol levels for all drivers
- Lift drinking age to 19
- Lift driving age to 17
- Compulsory driving tests ever 5 years after 50.
- Stronger penalties for dangerous driving causing harm.
- Stronger penalties for repeat offenders........

This is what I'd vote for.
- Zero alcohol for all drivers
- Lift drinking age to 21
- Lift driving age to 17
- Compulsory driving tests ever 5 years after 50
- Stronger penalties for dangerous driving
- Stronger penalties for repeat offenders
- Compulsory third party insurance

IMHO I wouldn't be upset at all if they banned alcohol altogether. It'd leave heaps more tax dollars for more important things from all the money saved from the drunk dicks no longer filling our hospitals, police cells and wasting police time.

[imdying]

Why shouldn't the limit be zero for everyone? Do you get better at driving under the influence the older you get?

[{.bLanK}G_o_D]

Teens are generally immature and don't think about the consequences

That doesn't read quite how I intended it to come across.
A better way of putting it would be, Maturity and wisdom get better with age. The majority of under 20-25 year old people don't have enough life experience to fully understand the repercussions from ones actions.

Still not exactly what I was thinking but better.