More rorts from the Nats

[Robert Taylor]

oh lord this thread is the best laugh ever.
Its like peas telling carrots they are too bland.

for me its great to see the pseudo marxists squirm, and about friggin time

[Pascal]

Perhaps, like a lot of people who believe in a fair and equitable society, his utterances may seem, to those who disagree with them, as such.

There you go. Blind. Do you really believe that anybody who doesn't think exactly the same as you does not necessarily believe in a fair and equitable society? Are you that fucking dumb? It would seem so. Just reading your Labour party talking points in the next paragraph makes me realise that there is nothing worth discussing with somebody who has their head so far up their own arse that they can't think or see a different perspective. You're sold on the ideas of:

National = privatisations
Cut tax = for rich mates
Mining on conservation lands = for business interest

Do you realize what a one eyed shill you sound like? Fuck man.

[Pascal]

You clearly have not been following my posts. ....
That is hardly the blind partisanship you accuse me of.

I see you as a blind partisan BECAUSE I've been reading your posts.

[freedom-wedge]

No, it is not. We live in a democracy. We can vote in anybody we choose. I'd certainly never cast a vote for a Labour government again. And it's looking highly unlikely that I'd vote for a National government either. I agree with a few of the Green party's policies, but because they're such Labour party lapdogs and so far removed from their core principles I don't consider them a good choice. Although, now that Bradford is gone they might actually start moving away from their Communist tendencies and start focussing on what they're good at.

If enough of us STOP voting for National / Labour, they won't be in power. You can't get a clearer message than that.

But, you have to deal with voter apathy, the blind partisanship of some (Looks at Skyryder) and so forth. It's not going to happen easily.

That’s quite right that you can vote for anyone, but really its just folly these days, Your exposed to rampant electioneering, told a whole lot of dribble, you vote or not and that’s it, beyond there is naught but referendum which can be ignored for you to show displeasure. By the time it comes to vote once more the damage is done.
Skyryder is a labour man by the looks, would of been appalled by some of the stunts pulled by them im sure, just as I am of hides efforts to remove vital assets from public ownership, and nothing good will come of it. While we debate surface issues, our new leaders make huge changes in the early hours, under urgency, so many changes so many implications that we know nothing of,. nor can we change this without huge cost. Yes we have freedoms compared to the US and UK and others, but its because they have slowly yielded theirs and have succumbed to the process of the dumbing down of the populace. Soon democracy will be just another word for nothing left to loose.

[Pascal]

That’s quite right that you can vote for anyone, but really its just folly these days, Your exposed to rampant electioneering, told a whole lot of dribble, you vote or not and that’s it, beyond there is naught but referendum which can be ignored for you to show displeasure. By the time it comes to vote once more the damage is done.

I see the point, but isn't that the whole point of a democracy? The general populace votes and decides what they want to happen. If the majority of them are so apathetic / uncaring / whatever to simply vote for the party that promises them the most, that is simply the system working as intended. However, notice what is happening here. We're talking about it. You are making your thoughts known. I'm making my known. Skyryder / SPMan / whoever are making their points known. That's people discussing politics, the government and so forth. Maybe this will sway one or two people to vote differently. Maybe not. Maybe it will end up snowballing to a point where enough people vote for a non National / non Labour government.

But that vote each of us has is one of the most powerful things in the world. It gives us the power to change things.

[Oscar]

That’s quite right that you can vote for anyone, but really its just folly these days, Your exposed to rampant electioneering, told a whole lot of dribble, you vote or not and that’s it, beyond there is naught but referendum which can be ignored for you to show displeasure. By the time it comes to vote once more the damage is done.
Skyryder is a labour man by the looks, would of been appalled by some of the stunts pulled by them im sure, just as I am of hides efforts to remove vital assets from public ownership, and nothing good will come of it. While we debate surface issues, our new leaders make huge changes in the early hours, under urgency, so many changes so many implications that we know nothing of,. nor can we change this without huge cost. Yes we have freedoms compared to the US and UK and others, but its because they have slowly yielded theirs and have succumbed to the process of the dumbing down of the populace. Soon democracy will be just another word for nothing left to loose.

Your not a details man, are you?
The whole point of a democracy is the freedom to discuss the issues, yet you continue to make broad generalisations about how it doesn't work.

How about you get more specific?

For example:
Were you referring to the smacking referendum?
It was a debacle and showed how stupid the concept was.
The question asked was confusing.

John Key said before the general election that he wouldn't change the law and won that election. Which takes precedence, the referendum or the general election?

[Skyryder]

I see you as a blind partisan BECAUSE I've been reading your posts.

OK so how do you equate my 'blind partisanship' with my opposition to Labour's Free Trade Agreement with China?

Skyrder

[mashman]

But that vote each of us has is one of the most powerful things in the world. It gives us the power to change things.

Did someone mention meds before? A vote is nothing more than a platitude these days... an illusion for those that still believe that we live in a democracy. If we did the anti-smacking bill wouldn't have gone through... but as it was the 80+% that said no, ya know THE VOTERS, THE PEOPLE, got told to sod off because the politicians of the day saw the referendum as nothing more than a, "let's see what they think, after all we don't have to change a thing, irrespective of what people really want"... you were saying what about democracy?

I'm not a political animal, never really will be, but you're all sounding like a bunch of fuckin kids.. my party does things better than your party... he's more honest than him... where in reality political parties are only there as glorified accountants, to make the books look good in our Global Economy (it sickens me to see people valued by the amount of $$$ they generate):

National = privatisations (ACC?)
Cut tax = for rich mates (The rich don't benefit MORE from tax cuts?)
Mining on conservation lands = for business interest (what the fuck are they gonna do with the minerals they remove, adorn their fireplace with them? of course there's business interest)

you were saying something about a "one eyed shill"?

[Swoop]

I worry these days about the beurocrats that are not voted out...

Also, there are the parasites that infest parliament who are not voted anywhere. The "advisors" "assistants" and a multitude of other positions who need to be removed when their MP goes.

[Oscar]

Did someone mention meds before? A vote is nothing more than a platitude these days... an illusion for those that still believe that we live in a democracy. If we did the anti-smacking bill wouldn't have gone through... but as it was the 80+% that said no, ya know THE VOTERS, THE PEOPLE, got told to sod off because the politicians of the day saw the referendum as nothing more than a, "let's see what they think, after all we don't have to change a thing, irrespective of what people really want"... you were saying what about democracy?

I'm not a political animal, never really will be, but you're all sounding like a bunch of fuckin kids.. my party does things better than your party... he's more honest than him... where in reality political parties are only there as glorified accountants, to make the books look good in our Global Economy (it sickens me to see people valued by the amount of $$$ they generate):

National = privatisations (ACC?)
Cut tax = for rich mates (The rich don't benefit MORE from tax cuts?)
Mining on conservation lands = for business interest (what the fuck are they gonna do with the minerals they remove, adorn their fireplace with them? of course there's business interest)

you were saying something about a "one eyed shill"?

I don't understand why all the things you mention are automatically bad:

National = privatisations (ACC?)

It has been proven before that parts of ACC are run cheaper and more efficiently by the private sector.

Cut tax = for rich mates (The rich don't benefit MORE from tax cuts?)

Of course, the more money you make, the more you'll get from a tax cut.
But why can't the re-jigging of the tax burden help the economy?
This and other proposed policies appear to be trying to divert more money into savings - real investment in the economy.

Mining on conservation lands = for business interest (what the fuck are they gonna do with the minerals they remove, adorn their fireplace with them? of course there's business interest)

I'm a bit skeptical on this one. On one hand I don't like the idea of mining on conservation land, but there is a kind of a religious fervor evident in NZ greenies when it comes to subjects like this.

[mashman]

I don't understand why all the things you mention are automatically bad:

I'm not saying they're automatically bad... I was just citing a few examples... But I can make them look bad if you'd prefer...

National = privatisations (ACC?)
It has been proven before that parts of ACC are run cheaper and more efficiently by the private sector.

At what cost? Loss of "skilled" jobs most likely... the introduction of 3rd parties contracted to ACC to provide X services, keeping costs low to start with when quoting for the work available... 3rd party staff will require training, so service will be affected (BAD for the people), private sector generally requires there to be a profit made (BAD for the people)...

Cut tax = for rich mates (The rich don't benefit MORE from tax cuts?)
Of course, the more money you make, the more you'll get from a tax cut.
But why can't the re-jigging of the tax burden help the economy?
This and other proposed policies appear to be trying to divert more money into savings - real investment in the economy.

I'm not saying re-jigging the tax system isn't going to help... but if you're asking people to save... who's going to be spending money? and if there's no money being spent, then how many businesses will fold? The rich could live off of the interest they earn alone if they wanted... why do they need tax cuts or more money for that matter?

So how does saving convert into investment?

Mining on conservation lands = for business interest (what the fuck are they gonna do with the minerals they remove, adorn their fireplace with them? of course there's business interest)
I'm a bit skeptical on this one. On one hand I don't like the idea of mining on conservation land, but there is a kind of a religious fervor evident in NZ greenies when it comes to subjects like this.

If you're skeptical on the mining issue, then you too see the VERY REAL potential down side to this one... heh, the greens have their place and a lot of the time they're not wrong... but to do things the green way takes $$$... unfortunately too much to implement the initiatives from a government stand point... or so we're told...

Again though there are positive counter arguments for my negative ones... there always are when someone doesn't agree with what you say...

[Pascal]

Did someone mention meds before? A vote is nothing more than a platitude these days... an illusion for those that still believe that we live in a democracy. If we did the anti-smacking bill wouldn't have gone through... but as it was the 80+% that said no, ya know THE VOTERS, THE PEOPLE, got told to sod off because the politicians of the day saw the referendum as nothing more than a, "let's see what they think, after all we don't have to change a thing, irrespective of what people really want"... you were saying what about democracy?

I'm not a political animal, never really will be, but you're all sounding like a bunch of fuckin kids.. my party does things better than your party... he's more honest than him... where in reality political parties are only there as glorified accountants, to make the books look good in our Global Economy (it sickens me to see people valued by the amount of $$$ they generate):

National = privatisations (ACC?)
Cut tax = for rich mates (The rich don't benefit MORE from tax cuts?)
Mining on conservation lands = for business interest (what the fuck are they gonna do with the minerals they remove, adorn their fireplace with them? of course there's business interest)

you were saying something about a "one eyed shill"?

I need to reply in detail, but I'm a bit snowed under today. Tomorrow morning.

[SPman]

If the vote was worth anything- they wouldn't give it to you.......

[mashman]

If the vote was worth anything- they wouldn't give it to you.......

True (nae bling left)... and oh how we pay for it (and not just financially)...

[freedom-wedge]

Your not a details man, are you?
The whole point of a democracy is the freedom to discuss the issues, yet you continue to make broad generalisations about how it doesn't work.

How about you get more specific?

For example:
Were you referring to the smacking referendum?
It was a debacle and showed how stupid the concept was.
The question asked was confusing.

John Key said before the general election that he wouldn't change the law and won that election. Which takes precedence, the referendum or the general election?

I,m not saying democracy dosnt work, I think it just works a whole lot better for some. I,m not refering to the anti smacking bill in general, seen as i make generalisations according to you, I,m refering to any referendum, they are not binding in this country, almost a waste of time. I dont think national won the election, it was handed to them, and given the state of the previous gov it was quite understandable.
Now we have the situation where the robbers in the house, he got in there by telling you he had to read the meter amd we have to wait three years till the robbery in progress is over, why becuase the robbers before had had their day and any robber was better then those robbers.

You say " Which takes precedence, the referendum or the general election" a referendum must surley for it may be the closest thing to gauge the will of the people given the current political structure.

And what of Rodney Hide generally ?? you like him ?? dislike him, whistle blower gets blown sort of thing ?

Obsurdities and rorts are not to be forgotten, this gov are servin them up daily its like yeasterdays ones were clensed by todays even bigger gaff, low level political debate does nothing in these forums, and anyway you use it often to try and prove that you have an intelectual ability oscar which you do but you miss so much at times, that dosnt include my spelling and bad grammar unfortunately.

pedro