Mining and Labour trying to fuck it

[Ixion]

Let's be clear - there is plenty of privately owned land in NZ being mined. The owners and the miners share the profits. One of the biggest miners of course is Solid Energy - which is owned by the government.

The issue with that sort of deal between the goverment and multinationals is how the shares are shared. Invariably we get the short end of the stick. Not an issue when the other part is publically owned - it comes back to us one way or other. So that's a much more acceptable arrangement

Speaking of which, Solid Energy own a huge area of farmland in Eastern Southland under which are a few billion tonnes of lignite. This isn't conservation estate, just ordinary productive paddocks. The plan at the moment is to convert the lignite to urea which is a valuable nitrogen fertiliser. Urea can be exported with all profits going to the government.

The other idea is conversion to liquid fuel - again all profits would go to the government.

That's a whole different ball game to mining the Coromandel. It's not conservation estate and it's far far easier to repair. That's the sort of mining initiative the Government should be looking at

[oldrider]

No mining please, we gotta start thinking beyond short term goals (jobs, money etc) and think of the long term survival of the planet. We as a species are just raping the environment for all its worth and it really needs to stop, its just not sustainable and I think you all know this is the case. I'm not a treehugger either but it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if we cut down all the trees, fuck with the water, and pump c02 back into the atmosphere we are fcuked.

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward.

[Winston001]

That's a whole different ball game to mining the Coromandel. It's not conservation estate and it's far far easier to repair. That's the sort of mining initiative the Government should be looking at

Well as I said, I'm not in agreement with the govt mining conservation land. However there are already 82 mining operations on public land (apparently) and no fuss was made. Labour approved the Pike River coal mine when it was the govt.

We need to be rational about this. Modern mining methods no longer require open-cast pits if the land is sensitive. And if precise low impact tunnels aren't economic then nothing happens. Nobody is going to bore expensive holes just to lose money. Road tunnels are built in scenic areas around the world without destroying the environment.

I still don't believe the risk is worth while, just trying to hold a balanced view.

[Pixie]

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

You can always offer the depleted holes to store overseas nuclear waste

[T.W.R]

I dunno.
I grew up around mining - and I think that while the mining is not a bad thing.........my great grandkids have every right to kick me in the nuts if the country has impassable areas due to tailings dams infecting the place (FYI don't walk in certain parts of Coro, or drink the water).
Likewise areas will collapse due to de-watering.
While I don't hug tree's, I would hope that NZ's "common sense" is a little better than US and Aussie. Yes, science and engineering exists so these problems don't happen.....no, gold mine co's don't pay for anything more than they are required.
But if it did happen, I would not go to the streets to protest, nor will I feel that employees of such companies are the devil. Just a little part of me inside would die.

Bringing in how much?

The $160 billion quoted is a figure pulled out of his arse.....errr, the air by a mining rep as an estimate - all surveys so far show about $3bill of assets, of which the government get fuck all anyway - around $300 mill! The royalties aren't very high. That's when they aren't subsidising the mining companies to find something!

How about opening up areas OUTSIDE national parks for mining exploration!

You really are a idiot.

As an ex opencast mine worker (Opencast coal at Huntly working under Baker Mining Ltd) these posts are pretty much on the money

[Blackbird]

Thing is that mining is a bit different. Most manufacturing is sustainable , you can keep on making whatever it is. If the company is overseas owned, the profits go off shore, but if/when the company packs up and goes away we ( the country) still have pretty much what we started with. But mining, is like selling capital. The minerals that get mined are gone for good. They don't grow back like grass or timber or water .

And most manufacturing doesn't crap out the countryside like mining does.

Someone noted that the total return to the country for ALL the gold mined is about 5 million. That's SFA for the mess we get left with. 1% of the value. The other 99% goes to the corporates, and it's gone for ever.

Les, it's nice to have intelligent debate without the normal KB penchant for pettiness when people hold opposing views - thank you for that! If all NZ was going to get out of it was such a paltry royalty (in addition to employment), I'd be opposed to it too which leads me to wonder whether we're missing something.

[avgas]

I'm not opposed to miniing PROVIDED it's done in a strictly controlled manner. Simply leaving riches in the ground if they can be extracted with minimal environmental impact doesn't make economic sense.

Very true. However I am still not convinced.
Martha used to be a hill
Waihi has had whole burbs dissappear.
Couer (sp?) have left the country with the worlds most poisonous swimming pool.....which is slowly slipping down the hill.
To fix these problems does not make economic sense - so to force companies to use the 'cleanest method' will basically scrap the large operations.
100 years from now I would hope that NZ is the 'Green' destination of the world. Our e-tourism would be the best in the world.
Those figures would far superimpose the mining ones in the long run (200+ years). Where as Aussie is slowly shooting itself in the foot. Likewise France and Africa.
However for any of this to happen, NZ would have to have radical changes..........so may be we should just give up now and mine the fucker now. I mean that is the kiwi way isn't it?

[avgas]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward.

Very true. However also very short-sighted.
As said earlier - just because the ability to control is there, doesn't mean that it will be used.
Govt has not heard the population yet in regards to ANYTHING. What makes you think they will when it comes to mining. Their concern is very simple.....$
While I do believe that people involved in the mines deserve the pay for their work - the big picture says that something is not right.
By saying we should allow it purely on the high pay involved, and the comfortable lifestyle (when not working), is like saying whoring should be acceptable.
Seeing my old man cough up black shit after a 14+ hour shift in the dark told me that their has to be more to life. Likewise someone was ripping him off somewhere. But he did it for us.
Do you want your grandkids doing it for their kids? Or do you hope its better for them?

[Skyryder]

Why hello, take a look around you, what you have claimed would happen because of mining, is exactly what has happened by "dairy expansion" and "wine expansion"!

Mining will be much more stringently controlled because of the hysteria, while the wine and dairy juggernaut rolls merrily unchecked on their destructive way!

Either way, I want to carry on enjoying the lifestyle I have enjoyed for the past 70 years and hope for the same for my grand children too, it didn't come easy, there may be some sacrifices required but you still have to move forward.

I've yet to seeone overseas company take any interest in the NZ environment let alone the welfare of the country as a whole. They do not and will not simply becasue those that make the decisions do not live here.

Jeeeeeeeaz OR even those that live in New Zealand, i.e. dairy farmers don't give a toss. I see Fonterra is threating to stop collections from those dairy farmers who continue to pollute our rivers and waterways.

Mining the conservation estate is not only wrong it is an atack on the heritage values that we New Zealsnders expect all Governments to uphold. You are fortunate OR; you see these vlaue outside your doorstep. Most of us do not as we live in the city.

I don't see the destruction no matter how slight of New Zealsnd's heratige values as moving forward.................in fact the very opposite.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Mallard is typical of the no hopers the Labour party attract, a bother boy in sheeps clothing! The press only use him for stiring up shit!

So I gather you are for the mining of our National Parks?

'Opencast mining not in plan,' says Key. Sadly I can not rust this man to keep his word.

With Mallard you know what you get so how you think he is 'bovver' boy in sheeps clothing is beyond me. A 'mad dog' I think is a better ephet.






Skyryder

[Tank]

I am just waiting for the Maoris to come to the table...

Unlike under labour when a tanifa (sp?) stopped the southern motorway and made New Zealand a laughing stock in the worlds news papers - I think National will be a bit more 'realistic' (or not so PC that it passes the bounds of reasonableness)

[imdying]

I'm the world's most ungreenie person, but I can't see that the New Zealand citizen is getting bugger all out of this.

Same. This country is not so badly off that it needs to rape the countryside for a little revenue. One day I expect that that will be the case, and not just in NZ. Even though I hope that's not in my life time (and thus nothing in it for me), I hope we at least wait till then.

[mashman]

Unlike under labour when a tanifa (sp?) stopped the southern motorway and made New Zealand a laughing stock in the worlds news papers - I think National will be a bit more 'realistic' (or not so PC that it passes the bounds of reasonableness)

Ha ha ha... as far as realism goes, politicians are about as far removed from it as possible... just take a look at the policies they've implemented over the last 20 years (at least)... I don't care which party conceived or implemented them... but they seem to think that throwing money at a problem fixes it... You must have seen this is your line of work no?

[Ixion]

.. If all NZ was going to get out of it was such a paltry royalty (in addition to employment), I'd be opposed to it too which leads me to wonder whether we're missing something.

Possibly. But according to today's Harold what we get out of it is "

Mining companies currently pay the Government royalties of about 1 per cent of the value of the mineral mined but it can vary depending on the type of mineral.
* They enjoy a tax regime described by the New Zealand Minerals Association as "concessionary". Mining companies may immediately deduct their exploration, building, mine shaft, plant and machinery, production equipment and storage expenses. * Mining companies pay the Government nominal fees for prospecting, exploration and mining permits ranging from $3.50 per square kilometre for a prospecting permit and $10 per hectare for a mining permit.

So, 7000 hectares @ $10 = $70000. Doesn't include the costs of extra infrastructure (roads etc) they'd need/want outside the 7000 hectares.
And 1% of the value . Previous reference suggests maybe $5 million. Less those "concessionary" tax breaks.
I'm underwhelmed. If there are other tangible benefits, no-ones disclosing them.
The lignite to fuel idea the Churchillian gentleman mentioned seems much less objectionable. Less downside, and it's a NZ company so we keep all the value.

[mashman]

Couer (sp?) have left the country with the worlds most poisonous swimming pool.....which is slowly slipping down the hill.

But there are solutions to the "poisonous swimming pool"... water powered cars for instance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

I believe, from what I have seen on the net (can't find it at the moment), that any water engine (could be anything really) could burn that "dirty" water and as it condenses produces clean water as it's byproduct... where's the research? Why are we not looking into this?